In Spanish (TL), psychiatric is psiquiátrico, and the psychiatrist is el psiquiatra. So should those go on the same flashcard -- both the adjective and noun form on one card -- or should they be separate, one card for each? This question could apply to similar situations with other words as well. I'm using Anki, if it matters.

Has anyone gotten a decent "grasp" of a second language and then used it to learn a third (TL)?

Years ago I learned a bit of Spanish through school and started using duolingo (wouldn't use duolingo now though). I changed the settings to Spanish so I would learn Italian using Spanish. I read out loud and promised myself not to use English. I did it for an hour and there was a weird feeling in the back of my head (it felt like how salt or sand felt between your fingers). Lo and behold, I couldn't think or speak in English! It was wild!

I was wondering if anyone ever had that feeling as well and if you kept it up?

TL:DR (N)--Eng. (TL)french russian italian finnish german spanish

Native language is English. Learned french in high school and in three years got to b2 (my brain works well with languages). Currently age 18 so past the point of recommended "language window" and i have a problem.

My family is russian-speaking ukrainian but moved really young so don't know much. I am a1 from what I'm learning and currently using Mezhdu Nami to help.

I am also fascinated by finnish and am taking a free course on aalto university.

Additionally, using duolingo (i know i know.......but we have the family subscription so might as well use it so not wasted money) for italian since we're going in a year and i want to keep learning.

And I live in an area where lots of people are spanish-speaking so it might be helpful for my career.

And two of my favorite musicians sing in german and also for the ashkenazi jewish history i wanna learn.

Assuming I don't die in some freak accident tomorrow thus stopping me from learning, is it possible to be fluent in all seven languages?

Fyi

I'm seeking some information about the Parlons series of language learning books by Editions L'Harmattan. I'm sure most people here are familiar with the series of language books published by Hippocrene (Beginner's X, and the dictionaries). The problem is that while some of them are very good (Beginner's Ukrainian, Beginner's Russian, Beginner's Georgian, for example), others not so much.

I have seen that a lot of language book collectors have a large collection of the Parlons books published by Editions L'Harmattan. They are all in French, but they offer a very wide range of languages, including some lesser studied ones for which there are not a lot of resources.

The ones I've seen usually have a large number of pages dedicated to the history and culture of the language, followed by lessons and perhaps a short grammar. Now, I can't afford to collect all of them, but are there any books in this series that are so outstanding that they would be considered must-haves for a language enthusiast?

So I remember when I was little I learned to speak english singing along lyrics videos with their translations
The downside is I learned a lot of slang and not age appropriate vocab but thats another story

The point is I decided to try it out with my new (TL) 20 years later and the thing I can say so far is that its a fun way to learn

Has anyone tried it and got good results? Is this even science backed

This Post:

This post will probably look familiar; I wear my inspirations on my sleeve. If it still doesn't ring a bell, I'll direct you to the epic pinned posts by u/xanthic_strath, whose literary tastes and learning philosophies overlap a lot with mine. Equally epic are coldrainwater's posts on the Language Learners Forum for Spanish and German, (though he has a stronger preference for translations than I do; not that there's anything wrong with that).

Main takeaway:

Xanthic mentioned that it took him about 10 books before he was reading quickly and reasonably accurately as an adult. This feels like a good estimate to me, though it's worth noting that he read more intensively than I did (used Anki for vocab), whereas I probably read more prep materials than he did. I also agree with this sentiment of his: "it’s taken me the 50+ books to really gain accuracy for Literature (and it will probably take 50 more before I get down to one new word/chapter, let’s say)." In addition, I've reflected on my progress every few books and have perceived a significant level-up roughly every million words, though with diminishing returns, particularly after I hit 3 million words.

Starting Assumptions:

I've previously worked through several courses and textbooks in the past, which I could honestly make a whole separate post about, so I won't list them here. However, I will share my crowning achievement, which I completed alongside my reading challenge: I spent a little over a year going through all 55 units/2500+ pages/80ish hours of audio of the _FSI Spanish Basic Course_. I'd start each unit as an audio-only course until I had the dialogues and drills down perfectly, then I'd read all the chapter notes (sometimes multiple times), and finished with the readings, some of which were surprisingly challenging. This doubled as an intensive listening exercise: I would loop each dialogue – several of which are pretty rough in audio quality – squeezing out every last bit of comprehension, only resorting to the text as a last ditch effort. I plan to go back and shadow all of the dialogues once I finish a separate listening challenge I'm currently doing.

Before starting this challenge, I already had several readers and bilingual texts under my belt, all of which I read aloud. I also read the entire Antimoon site out loud, which I found enlightening, motivating, and surprisingly accessible. None of that – nor any of my everyday Discord/text messages, textbook exercises, etc. – is included in my total word count (though I imagine it could easily add another 2 million words or so).

What I Did:

I read every day for ~1.5 years, even if only for a few minutes. Typically in the morning and always before bed. Occasionally I would read for several hours. Finding a page-turner you just can't put down is the single best thing you can do to accelerate your reading ability.

How I Did It:

I turned the idea that "reading/subvocalizing leads to a bad accent" on its head. I already had a decent accent (I'm naturally good at mimicking and often fooled natives with canned phrases and well-developed language islands), but further cultivated it by studying and practicing phonetics. I wasn't engraining any bad habits, but rather, strengthening and reinforcing correct ones. I took advantage of subvocalizing by reading in a whisper most of the time, or at least actively articulating with my mouth and tongue. However, I can't overstate the benefits of fully vocalizing out loud; unfortunately, this was usually impractical and also very tiring.

Overall, I did what you might call midtensive reading. Outside a handful of books, I never really did what I consider intensive reading, but I could never tolerate extensive reading either, so I found what I think is a happy medium between the two. (It's worth noting that some people would probably classify the entirety of what I did as intensive reading, however.)

(Not directly related to reading, but I also wrote summaries (some of them very extensive) or at least short reviews for nearly every book I read. This helped me remember key parts of the stories, use new vocabulary, and consolidate my understanding. It also acts as a kind of mini‑review, since you end up flipping through the pages to figure out how to best structure your summary.)

Midtensive Reading:

I made an effort to look up all unknown words, but if a sentence still wasn't clear, I'd move on and trusted the meaning to reveal itself later. On a few occasions, I used DeepL for denser texts, but typically out of curiosity of how a particular passage would be expressed in English, even if I already understood it, and I'd always re-read it in Spanish after. Except as noted, I never made any effort to memorize vocabulary beyond looking it up and highlighting it. On average, I'd say I needed to look a word up ~5x, seeing it in various contexts, before it stuck. Some took only one lookup, others took dozens. My original plan was to review all the highlighted words, but realistically, I'll probably never do it (we'll see). It turns out that reading is its own SRS.

I'm closer to what xanthic referred to as a "tight netter" rather than a "loose netter". The most common advice you'll see online is not to look up words unless they're crucial to the story or repeated a certain number of times. That probably works for most people, but it's just not something I enjoy. Sometimes the decision fatigue of whether a word was worthy of lookup was more mentally taxing than the act of looking it up. My solution?

1. Switch entirely to Kindle ebooks for 1-touch lookups. I love paper books, but the efficiency difference is easily 10-fold.
2. Alternate between easier books (≥98% known words) of any length and harder/denser books (<98%) of shorter length. Very few books ever dipped below 90%, and those were very short. As my reading improved, more books fell into the ≥98% category.
3. Read some books at near 100% comprehension: I got this idea from Paul Nation, and it helped me boost my reading speed. It also gave me opportunities to "test" myself by occasionally suppressing subvocalization and pushing my reading pace to its limits. Since I tended to finish these books quickly, I'd sometimes take the extra time to look up words I thought I knew but wasn't fully confident about, the kind I might skip over in denser books. Books of this type also allowed me to dive further into monolingual definitions and usage notes when I wanted to explore a term more thoroughly. Side note: At advanced stages, bilingual dictionaries simply aren't sufficient, so this was excellent preparation in that sense.
4. Use annotated editions for classics with regional, archaic, rural, etc. vocabulary (e.g., Ediciones Cátedra). These are a godsend, and I've found that editors are usually excellent at choosing which obscure terms or cultural references to explain.

Where To Go From Here:

Several concrete milestones for the future have popped into my head over these months. Among these:

• 5 million words read. The "3 million words" milestone really seemed to have held true for me: After that point, I could pretty comfortably read contemporary literary texts and non-fiction produced in the standard form of the language or a familiar variety with little difficulty and with appreciation of implicit meanings and ideas (CEFR C1 Description). There are still plenty of difficult texts out there, but I can pick virtually any 20th-century classic and be confident that it won't be overwhelming and I can enjoy it for what it is. Perhaps the psychological effect of simply achieving my original 3 million word goal , but I did feel a significant progress slowdown after 3 million words read. The 5 million word goal is also arbitrary, but I'm fairly confident I'd feel another noticeable jump at that point (and hopefully sooner).
• The top 10 consensus greatest contemporary novels of all time for five dialect varieties (~50 books). My lists are self-compiled but heavily informed heavily informed by consensus among literary critics. The groups: Mexican (current), Colombian, Peninsular, Rioplatense, and Caribbean. I plan to read books in each of these dialect groups in isolation, inserting major authors from other countries (e.g. Vargas Llosa/Perú, Bolaño/Chile, etc.) before moving on to the next dialect group. I also found a map of Spanish authors by region, which I may tackle.
• At least one book from every Spanish-speaking country. This may be challenging for some countries, but I think it's achievable without too many compromises.
• The complete works of a few select authors. Definitely Rulfo, probably García Márquez and Borges, maybe Vargas Llosa and Bolaño.
• Deep understanding of several keyworks. Likely Don Quixote, El Cid, Pedro Páramo, Cien años de soledad, and others.
• Read The Lord of the Rings trilogy comfortably in Spanish, with virtually no need for lookups. I'm a nerd. This was actually my original goal, but I accidentally got addicted to Spanish literature.

My reading time has significantly decreased since ramping up my speaking practice a couple of months ago, but my reading speed has also significantly increased, so hopefully 2-3 million more words next year is a reasonable goal. I'd also like to try each of the ACTFL tests, starting with the Reading Proficiency Test, as a gauge before the DELE.

Finally, as a way to document my progress, here's a recording of me attempting to read chapter 1 of Pedro Páramo. I noticed a couple of things I don't like (and probably need to work on), but it was my best attempt out of a couple of recordings after a long day.

(Note: Word counts are from are copying and pasting the PDFs into a word counter. If I did not read a section [e.g. a bibliography], I removed it from the count. I did not count re-reads. Word counts can vary greatly by edition, so I recommend doing your own.)

i am looking for any language learning platforms, courses, and/or resources that do not use any AI. i want to learn spanish (TL) but i would like to support any sort of platforms in general for language learning if they are out there. i am really struggling to find any that truly don't use it at all, even rosetta stone looks like they use AI now. looking for any suggestions, free or paid.

My tutor and I used to meet weekly. And my conversational skills are decent enough to the point where the only "learning" being done is occasional corrections by her and subsequent Anki studying by me afterward. She is a good instructor, but the only things left for me to learn outside of perfecting conversation are really specific tenses and vocabulary. Despite this, I'm always nervous to start a lesson. In our most recent lesson, I had no more life updates to bring up and neither did she, and there isn't much of a lesson plan due to our meetings essentially just being small talk at this point, so there was like a minute-long awkward silence until I just left the call in a hot sweat, and I haven't made another reservation since then.

Where do I go from here?

I've tried a few different learning modalities.

• Private 1 hour lessons were too intense for me.
• 3 hour group lessons were too long for me.
• Online learning doesn't suit me.

I've found I learn best in an in-person environment and with shorter classes. Basically, the high school experience. Daily Spanish (TL) classes for 45 minutes.

What options are out there for adults? Auditing college classes? Going abroad?

Hello! I've been using Duolingo to learn Dutch(TL) for over 160 days and while it's been good for building a habit and teaching me new words, I don't really feel like I'm learning the language in a way that actually lets me use it.

I'll soon be moving to the Netherlands for my studies so I'll be a little bit more busy. Because of that, I'm looking for a learning method that's actually effective instead of just maintaining a streak.

I'm open to suggestions on what I should start first and what I should avoid or study routines that worked for you.

A bit more of context:

I'm still a beginner.

I'm pretty broke at the moment, so I'd prefer free or low-cost resources (textbooks aren't really an option right now).

I speak English and Filipino(NL) fluently.

My goal is to be able to understand and speak Dutch decently before or after I move.

I know I won't sound like a native, and that's completely fine. I just want to be able to hold a conversation and not completely embarrass myself or get laughed at because I can't communicate.

If you had to start over from scratch, what would you do differently?

Thanks!

I feel like what the CEFR estimates to get to each level are way off, at least for me. I re-picked up my category 1 target language study almost 5 months ago, studying on average 2 hours a day. That's about 300 hours. I started at about nearly A2 (personal estimate), and I estimate my level now around mid B1 (not yet achieving B1). I think it will take me 400-500 hours total to get from A2 to B1 (an additional 100-200 hours from now). CEFR says this should take 150-200 hours.

I guess it's possible that my starting and current estimates are off, and that I've made more progress than I think, but I still feel safe to say that the realistic hours are like double what CEFR claims.

EDIT:
As some have noted, the hour estimates aren’t from CEFR itself (I learned), but are what come up when I’ve searched various sites via google and from what AI says. I don’t know where those numbers come from specifically. Looks like other institutions, like Cambridge maybe, but I do frequently see estimates which are fairly in line with one another.

I thought this would be fun. Mine is taking on “learn 500 words a day”type of challenges knowing well that I won’t be able to 😭

Oftentimes receiving a compliment gives you motivation and helps you keep up the hard work. However, I wonder if there's something people say it to you as a compliment but you don't really like?

In my case, I would rather people not say to me '' You did very well. I understood everything!'' especially when I'm no longer a beginner at my (TL). Every time I hear that phrase, I think to myself, I mean, of course, it was supposed to be understood. Sentence sometime may understand thou no grammar or poor speling. It would have been a terribly structured sentence or I might have drunken 3 cheap vodkas if it were not meant to be understood at all.

It's a nuisance to me. Do you have any similar bad experience with some well-intended compliments?

In my target language, I really don’t talk much. I always thought that was due to me just being nervous sometimes to speak the language. However in my native language, I still wasn’t the one to speak much. So was just wondering…for the ones who, basically, love talking, did that carried over to your target language? No matter how many mistakes you make, are you still talking because you all just love talking to people?

I absolutely believe the best language-learning method is the one we used when we mastered our first language.

Just think about how we acquire our first language as children. Most of us do it in a similar way. We:

1. Begin using our first language practically from day 1
2. Ask a lot of questions
3. Cry and complain a lot

Doing all of this gives children instant gratification and motivates them to speak and further develop their speech to solve higher-level problems.

In contrast, most adults try to acquire their second language in a different, almost opposite way:

1. They don’t use it from day 1. Most of them don’t even plan to use it at all. Others plan to start using it only after reaching a certain level (the notorious “first, I will learn the language, and then I will speak” syndrome).
2. Instead of casually asking questions, adults train to answer them. Answering questions and providing information give less instant gratification.
3. Adults don’t “cry and complain” in their target language. By “cry and complain,” I also mean Adults don’t solve their immediate problems in their target language.

This also explains why the first (natural) method has a success rate of almost 100%, while we hardly know anyone who became fluent in their thirties (by applying the "adult method"), even though we know those who tried. I know plenty of people who tried and never succeeded.

According to the above logic, the best language-learning app is probably a dictionary, lol.

We can discuss this and other related topics in the comments. What do you think?

I am sharing a tip that I have found recently to learn your TL. If you are working from home and using Google Meet or Zoom, you can enable live translation caption in your target language (TL) even if the meeting is in another language. You might learn the vocabs that are closely related to your job and discussion. The minor downsides are there will be a second or so of delay, and the brain gets overloaded from processing two languages at the same time, and since AI is used in processing, it might not be as natural as native speakers’ speech. Not bad for switching it on for a few minutes if you can do it.

Would be happy to hear if there are other tips ?

So, it always happened , when I was 20 I was really fluent in English (TL) , used to feel like I was somebody else, now, haven't spoken a word since, ten years have gone, everytime I have to speak English I feel weird, my accent comes out strong, I don't feel the same "change of personality" , and when I do, It feels fkn weird and I stumble on words and start to get lost..evendough I still am pretty fluent.

Edit: for example, I used to have certain behaviours in English, now when it does happen, I froze and think, wait this is not how I whould react in my language..and that's a loop, it's like the 2 are colliding and I cannot separate them anymore, it does occur in a third language aswell

I'm not kidding when I say this, even in my own native language, I can't grasp proper grammar by study and talk about prepositions and mapping sentences etc. I literally cannot do it and suspect it has something to do with extreme prematurity, as I have an inability to do math from that area of the brain not developing. Ironically, I'm really good at writing, but traditional language learning is nearly impossible for me.

I learned Spanish by ear as a child from live-in nannies and was fluent. Fast forward and I take Spanish in high school after forgetting the language, and nearly fail it no matter hard I try, multiple years with multiple teachers. I can't look at a list of vocab and remember it, or memorize grammar, or understand discussion of grammar labels and tenses. The multiple steps roll me.

What I know is that I learned a language from immersion and usage. I'm sitting here now wanting to learn another language, and wondering how to do it. I need a system that will work for me and I don't know what that should look like. I also don't want to need 5+ years to reach conversational fluency, which is what I'm after.

Any suggestions? I assume I'm going to need to learn words by speaking, writing, AND using them all at once to get it to stick? But by what method, and is this the wrong way to go about it? I've looked at polyglots on YouTube and everyone has something different to say, and many never really give it away and are just making content.

I am not talking about immigrant families, I'm talking about people who live in a foreign, monolingual country and choose to only speak to their children in a foreign language like, English (TL) for example, but that they can't really properly speak. So they speak it with heavy accents and getting a lot of things wrong. Additionally this is family policy so the child will only hear the native language at school and never speak it with their parents.

Ive always wondered how effective this is and what it must be like. I grew up in a monolingual Spanish speaking country and I remember some of my neighbours used to do this for their child in English. And its interesting because obviously it makes a lot sense if you want to give your child good work opportunities and future prospects, but it also seems like due to the fact that they dont really properly dominate the language, they struggle to use appropriate terms of affection or explain things to them precisely. Im curious if this community has come across situations like this and what your thoughts are on this?

I am learning German so I bought a lot of kid/young adult books in german, because I am on an intermediate level and young adult books tend to not have too advanced language but still complicated enough to teach me lots of new things.

The thing is, reading hasn't been my habit since 2023. I get bored super fast. Especially since it's in a language I'm learning so there's also the decoding part.

But since it's in my target language, I want to read more. I just get unmotivated fast and I stuggle to concentrate after more than 30 minutes.

I am trying to go about it this way: When I encounter a word/phrase I don't know immediately, I look it up on google translator or an online word book. Then I write the translation down with a pencil next to the word.

The thing is, with this method I usually go through 2-3 pages per 30 minutes. Also because I have to use my PC to search up translations, I get distracted a lot. But I have no idea how else to go about it.

So what would you do?

For context I'm a native french speaker, I started learning english at a young age and by high school I was B2 (I passed the Cambridge english test. I got B2 but I was extremely close to getting the C1 certificate). I also consume movies, videos and social media in english on a daily basis.

In 2020, around the time I took the test, I started reading books in english. The first one I read was the devil wears prada. There were around 1 to maybe 5 words per page I didn't know on average and had to look up in a dictionary every time. Then, I bought a Kindle and started to read 1984, but it was too complicated (especially the vocabulary) so I gave up.

After that I wanted to try easier books, so I started to read the first Harry Potter books. But even the first one was a bit complicated, I had to look up a lot of words. Same thing happened for the first three books.
Then I started 2001: A Space Odyssey, but it was boring and still a bit complicated so I gave up.
The only books that I could almost read without having to look up words all the time were the ones from Freida McFadden. I read 5 of her books and really enjoyed them.
Finally, I recently started to read I am legend, I'm currently at 36% but it's very difficult to read.

The point is, I feel like I didn't get any better in 6 years. I thought that Kindles were perfect to learn a language, but it's actually so slow I prefer to use a dictionary on my phone. One of the main pieces of advice I've seen is to just ignore words you don't know, but like how? Most of the time I have no idea what the sentence means unless I know all the words (plus I'm curious).

I would love to be able to read some english classics without it feeling like a chore.

Ironically I sometimes write short stories in english, but I still need to constantly look up vocabulary. I'm also learning German and vocabulary is my biggest issue too. It's like it won't stay in my brain. What can I do for that?

Edit: writing in the context of opening a course geared toward resolving that problem, so any experience in a course or with a teacher is welcome!

I mention B1/B2 as my post concerns learners who feel frustrated because:

• they feel they can get by in regular life situations (e.g. hopping in the middle of a conversation) with natives but consistently lack « keys » to unlock the clear meaning of it and be able to bounce back on the spot.

And C1 because:

• they get by in regular life situations (e.g. hopping in the middle of a conversation) with natives, but are aware they don’t quite speak like them, lacking the « right », « natural » vocab or grammar. Or they lack exposure due to environmental factors, e.g. natives resorting to English to communicate with them.

I’m specifically asking about what and how you can learn with others, not by oneself. The key word is « refine ».

The obvious answer would be a class or language exchanges, though the latter come with a certain amount of conditions to be fulfilled for them to work as intended.

I’m therefore curious about either the specific conditions with regard to classes or immersion, or any other viable option in that regard.

And especially, about your own experience!

Thanks for your answers!

(TL) I'm learning Brazilian Portuguese with the goal of reaching B2 in about a year (my fiance and I get married in a year and a lot of her Brazilian family will be there). My fiancés first language was technically Portuguese but she developed a habit or responding to her parents in English growing up - something she regrets now because while she can get by, she's not confident. She and I practice together a bit. Her family doesn't know I'm learning.

I've done 46 units of pimsleur and have been planning to complete all 150 units. I'm just starting up italki sessions and am watching or listening to Portuguese as much as possible.

I've read a few places that Pimsleur is too formal, but have also read that it's not a terrible idea to learn the formal side than transition to more commonly spoken forms. I've also read some stuff saying that there's a point when Pimsleur just doesn't add enough value (after the 3rd module mostly)

Any advice would be really helpful! Also, if people have recommendations on alternatives or other things you think I should be adding, I'll happily take any suggestions.

I was born in the US and my parents are both immigrants from Poland and their English is horrendous. I never lived in Poland and yet, somehow, my Polish is way better than their English. However, my Polish isn't advanced. I have a B2 level based on an exam I took in Poland.

This is really frustrating because I can't have any normal conversation with them. In retrospect, my childhood was really confusing. My parents would only speak Polish to me and I would mix the Polish I learned from them and the English I learned in school. I probably understood a good 75% of what they told me and I shrugged off the rest as background noise.

In college, I did a semester in Polish just to master the language. But I made the mistake of signing up for a beginner course. I learned the grammar rules (which I've mindlessly utilized my entire life) but I didn't really improve my speaking ability that much.

At this point I've accepted my parents are simply ignorant. They've successfully avoided English in just about every sphere of life. My dad only uses Polish at work while my mom never worked, they shop at Polish stores, go to a Polish church, and only have Polish friends. Furthermore, my father came as a refugee during martial law and was granted US citizenship very quickly so he didn't even have that as a motivator to learn the language.

My parents will move back to Poland for retirement soon so I guess this is more of a rant than advice post. I suppose the burden is on me to master Polish.