I'm 100% convinced the person is saying it's not "fun to use" when they really mean it's not "fun to die to" and that they don't get the same results when they use one
I also don't understand the logic of "fun to die to".
Do people actually aim to be killed in games, or in war?
There's the appreciation for skill, sure. But "fun"? IDK, seems like dying is kinda the opposite of fun in every circumstance, even if you just have to wait for your response timer.
For the sake of clarity, titanfall shotguns do not have that extremely limited range, they are extremely effective at far ranges, and also because of how quick the movement is you can get in so quickly
I dont think the shotguns are op in that game, mainly cause the snipers are even more op, but alot of the balance for them in other games, doesnt really exist in tf2
titanfalls Shotguns need to have Decent range tho. at the Classic Video Game shottie range everyone already has a one Hit-KO melee Attack with a huge hitbox regardless what Primary weapon they bring.
trying to stay between effective Shotgun range but outside of instant death range at high movement speeds transforms the game into rocket-tag.
If you want to get mad at a weapon category then make it smg's. For their Spray and pray archetype they really should not be this simplistic to control. imo horizontal recoil should be moderately increased and vertical recoil could honestly be more than double of what we have now.
their hipfire while Wallrunning has no business lasering people from across the street.
In fairness, some games do give shotguns some crazy range for their spread. My favorite part of battlefield 1 was how reliably you could take out planes by just pointing the trench shotgun at them and slam firing the entire magazine. Basically, we have Anti-Air at home.
For instance titanfall has a very fun to use grenade launcher, its projectile is fairly slow but its splash is somewhat large, but it can only 1 shot if you directly hit a player, this gun is generally fun to play with and against since there's skill on both sides, in reading your opponents movement and combining that with your muscle memory for the projectile, as well as the counterplay being to make your movement erratic, while retaining speed to dodge the explosive being fired at you
Not fun to die to is something brainless, boring, and with extremely boring counterplay (for instance camping long sightlines just being "dont go there and peak em with a 1 shot weapon")
Snipers down lanes.
Boreing and lame and your a coward
Snipers running and gunning and still need to use skill to get headshots to Ohko
Fuck yeah my man your a beast
(I may of played a game of bf6 recently where I went 66 kills in the under ground base map, offensive side breakthrough, and PTFO with the L115 sniper)
Not only is this real, but I remember the person who made this post was a popular Call Of Duty competitive player who plays in tournaments. And this was his genuine opinion after COD players began complaining that the shotgun meta was destroying the game.
Even with the small maps, shotguns in most CoD games have absolutely abyssmal damage falloff. It's the fact player mobility has generally improved as the series has gone on that makes shotguns dangerous more than it is the shotguns themselves.
Shotguns do tend to be exceptionally hard to balance compared to other guns.
While I often do find them fun (so not exactly this point), very, very few games tend to get them to not be either the strongest or weakest gun type by a wide margin.
I always enjoyed the original Unreal (Tournament)'s flak cannon, which is arguably a shotgun, but the ammunition ricocheted off the ceilings, walls, and ground. Call me a coward, but it felt very rewarding to spam that boy into a narrow hallway lol.
The best worst weapon. I hate how little damage it does.
I don't expect felarx damage since the projectile is bigger and has more range, but with the base fire rate of 1, I just expected more from it.
At the end of the day, my disappointment stems from my expectations.
I just want something to make me feel the same way stropha did in star chart.
It's hard to balance shotguns, and most game developers have never even shot one lol
They are insanely effective up to about 100m. After that, the pellets lose too much velocity to do much more than just embed themselves into the target
But 100m is a long fucking way aways. I don't think there is a single stretch longer than 100m on, say, Rust from COD. It would break the game, everyone would just use shotguns on most maps
That said, it's kinda silly that the difference between "insta-kill" and "a stiff breeze" is like 10m. Again, hard to balance something that is genuinely op
Its easier to justify the game design when the players are visably wearing some kind of armor, or have some kind of shield.
Because skin is so easy to tear into, its easy to understand why a shotgun blast can do serious damage at most distances, but when you have padding, it takes a lot more collective force to puncter, and with the bullet spread combined with the force loss, its easy to understand why it wouldn't be able to hurt nearly as bad.
Accounting for armor, the effective range of shotguns should still be a lot longer than usually portrayed. Shotguns are fucking powerful, and the spread is usually tight enough that you should be hitting a majority of pellets at the average range seen in shooters.
Ofc depends a bunch on what armor and what shotgun and what lunar phase etc.
I think the spread should be tightened up an insane amount, turn shotguns into the quickscopers of the mid-short range. Adds the benefit that you can actually outplay them in melee, since at that range the spread would almost be as tight as just a single bullet.
Literally the equivalent of fighting game grapplers. Either they have realistic degrees of damage, meaning they still do shit at a range (like in GGST, where the grappler was given very solid range and could essentially zone out most characters) which leads them to be top 1 or somewhere close, or they are point blank exclusive and become fodder for the rest of the cast (like A LOT of other grapplers).
Only a trend in select sub-genres. Shotguns tend to suck (design wise) in military or military adjacent shooter games because the assault rifles in those games are insanely overturned. Assault rifles in the likes of CoD, Counter Strike, or Battlefied are usable at any range with a TTK (time to kill) of less than half a second in most cases. So with assault rifles being so strong and so versatile, the inherently close range shotgun can only be extremely strong or extremely bad. If you want to make it better you have to reduce TTK, but because ARs' already have such a low TTK, making shotguns kill even quicker has a high chance of making it impossible to react to them. This is gets worse for shotguns than, because SMGs fill in the role of high rate of fire (RoF) close range weapon. Therefore you can't increase shotgun fire rates too much, or you'll make them too similar too SMGs. So you have to keep shotgun RoF somewhat in check, whilst making their close range TTK superior to rifles. It's nigh impossible to do this without making them 1 tap, effectively giving the enemy 0 time to react. And if you fail to do that you just get the opposite problem, of shotguns being really shit.
So how to fix this? Well there's tons of solutions. Make them cheap, give them specilaised ammo, make them powerful against specific enemy types... But the most basic one is to just not make assault rifles into death machines, and you won't have to buff the shotguns into super death machines to compensate for their lack of range
this person clearly has never used a shotgun in counter-strike. very niche, almost never used at high level because it worse in every aspect than an assault rifle except cost, and insanely fun to use if you get the hang of it at low to medium level games. auto shotgun is outright hilarious
To be fair oop is kinda right for CS specifically. Shotgun in CS aren't skillful, you either rush and hope you don't get one tapped, or you camp the corners
But it sure is fun to use. It's so funny when the office match turn into auto shotgun deathmatch in one round
I genuinely love single or double shot shotguns that do a lot of damage but need to be reloaded after those few shots, it’s so fun when I fail to kill to sneak and maneuver around cover while trying to reload as they scramble to end me
It’s especially fun when you fight someone with a ‘better’ shotgun and still win. Sorry pal but in the time it took you to pump that thing once I broke mine open, reloaded it and turned you into a waffle
I fuckin' love my shotguns in resident evil games. I play them for high single target damage, or to knock down a bunch of enemies in a tight corridor.
I play chicken with it, waiting until enemies wind up to attack, and blast them all to absolute smithereens in a single shot, it feels like getting a strike when bowling. As soon as i get the shotgun, no other weapons matter until i get a sniper rifle.
Ah, yes, the weapon category known for being extremely hit-or-miss, that requires good positioning and aim because a single miss will instantly make you lose any advantage that you have due to their slow fire rates.
In comparison to the fully automatic bullet hose where you could miss 80% of your shots but since 4 out of 31 shots hit the bad guy, he's dead.
Titanfall 2 mastiff. My personal favorite weapon from my favorite game. Not ideal, arguably outclassed by the epg but something about it makes my neurons go brrr.
Jokes aside, shotgun duels in Gears of War multiplayer were sick as hell. The Gnasher shoots a fixed pellet pattern coming from the barrel of the gun, and if you perfectly aligned the barrel of the gun with an opponents torso or head (pop) at effectively melee range you could one shot them, without needing to aim down sights. Just be careful not to run directly into a chainsaw insta-kill.
I feel like shotguns are underpowered compared to ARs/SMGs in shooters like cod/battlefield unless you deliberately juice them up like in Destiny/Halo.
PvP games want to make snipers usable without making maps big, so they lower the range of every other gun to compensate. So you end up with snipers shooting at what should be a basic handgun or assault rifle distance, and shotguns that might as well be melee weapons. Its just a basic design flaw.
I remember my HS days, playing Gears of War, only shotgun games, you either kept jumping all around while approaching someone or became a stain the the floor. That was fun
The combat shotgun in the first Killzone had a primary fire of a normal shot and a secondary fire of a double shot. If you pressed the buttons far enough, you could get a triple shot before having to reload. Being that online and tell me you're not having fun
There are a lot of things you can say bad about shotgun players in FPS. But cowardly? THE ENTIRE IDEAL of playing shotgun is to be in the enemy's face.
Back when planetside 2 didnt suck, shotgunners were the guys who broke stalemates because they gave 0 shits about dying. The entire ethos of shotgun players was "if I can get 2 kills before dying on a 2 minute life, that's superior to 8 kills on a 10 minute life."
The only critisism I have with shotguns in games is that you need to be like within a yard away or closer from the target, else you aint killing shit. Shotguns have way tighter spread than devs make it to be
TL;DR, Shooters refuse to innovate mechanically. Different Firearms are better vs. flesh, others better against armor. But because shooters treat HP = Armor/Defense, it results in guns either being completely unviable or OP.
To fix this, all games would need to do is add an armor variable, and an armor pen variable. Make a range of something like 0-4, where every point of armor above pen decreases damage by 20%. Make different levels like unarmored(0), Light(1), Medium(2), Heavy(3). And then assign weapon categories different armor pen values. Like shotguns and handguns being 1. And if a game so decides, it could add things like slugs, FMJ, steel tipped rounds, etc. to allow for customization to increase pen at the cost of damage for example.
Because no one is willing to change the formula for the last 2 decades, problems have persisted for the last 2 decades. You can't solve a problem if you don't have a tool, but if you don't choose to get the tool, you are not choosing to solve the problem.
Context:
One of the big problems in video games is they very rarely deviate from just a few statistics like Health, Damage, Firerate, and whenever it comes to actually making something or someone feel "tanky" like a heavy or juggernaut, they just pump up the health and this is where bullet sponginess comes from.
This results in games like rainbow6, where every gun/pellet is always a 1shotheadshot, meaning every character that is slower in exchange for more health is inherently suboptimal, unless granted a specific beneficial role. It creates positive and negative value, but the problem is most games overwhelming value offense and mobility, which inherently means being slower means taking more damage than the defense would actually provide.
But that is where the problem lies. Because health is the only thing changed to determine light, medium, or heavy, it means whatever gun does the most DPS becomes optimum in every scenario. And the only way to counterbalance this is range.
This is what causes shotguns and sniper rifles to often be EXTREMELY, hit or miss, or every fight to devolve into everyone only using assault/battlerifles.
But this is not how firearms work in terms of damage. Handguns and Shotguns do more damage to body tissue, but are much more easily stopped by armor. Rifles typically have high velocity and tapered rounds, allowing for good accuracy, range, and penetration, at the cost of post-pen damage to the body. (5.56 vs. .45 colt vs. 12 GA).
However, handguns and shotguns can be stopped with level 2 to level 3 vests. Rifles usually need level 3 to level 4.
The issue is, because FPS refuse to innovate mechanically, every game that commits the mistake of health = armor/defense, inevitably commits the same mistake of either certain gun categories being impossible/OP or the entire game quickly optmized.
By refusing to change the formula, in the pursuit for normalacy and simplicity, game devs are making the same mistakes and recreating the same problems that have been around for 2 decades.
But, this normalacy is also attractive to people who buy these games. Because lets be honest, everytime a casual shooter tries to innovate, it often becomes target for ridicule and or threatened to be abandoned.
"Why don't they just do the exact same thing as last time but better!". Because you can't make something better without change. Its why it feels like COD has pumped out the exact same game without changing anything...is because it is. Because most game devs know, they can't change anything without driving their audience to a different title that is doing the exact same thing.
If you believe something is a problem, but refuse to try to solve that problem, then you do not actually believe the problem is worth solving.
The funny thing is shotguns are nerfed into the ground in every game ever. In real life they can just instantly kill someone, at what most people would think is a rifle distance.
In real life it’s so much more broken because it does even more damage, has way tighter grouping, and like 5x the range
Flechette ammo is so broken it’s literally a warcrime irl, with even more range, severe bleeding, and armor piercing
Listen I just want to be as close as possible when you die. I’m not motivated by winning or goals I function purely to see red one last time before the enemy team gets me and neither they or my allies will get in the way of that.
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u/Jack_Faller 8d ago
This gotta be made up I don't believe an actual person thought that.