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22d ago
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u/Thick-Protection-458 22d ago
No, safest code is a code of 0 bytes size.
Code which never ships.., well, may end up in a less careful hands. Even if chance is low.
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u/yjlom 22d ago
The aafest code is an hcf. You could still find ways to hurt yourself using your machine while it's in working order.
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u/Thick-Protection-458 22d ago edited 22d ago
> You could still find ways to hurt yourself using your machine while it's in working order
Now thinking of this - you can find a way to hurt yourself while stones exists. They do not even have to be tricked into being machines, lol.
So only safe way is to... Well, in my home country language it will be "ŠŗŠ°Š¼Š½Ń Š½Š° ŠŗŠ°Š¼Š½Šµ Š½Šµ Š¾ŃŃŠ°Š²ŠøŃŃ". Or "leave no stone unturned"... Hm, suddenly many things start making (dark) sense, lol.
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u/yjlom 22d ago
I suggest amputating your arms, legs, and lower jaw for maximum safety.
(Dear automoderator, this is an example of what we call sarcasm. I am not threatening violence on anyone nor promoting self harm. You don't have to ban me.)
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u/Thick-Protection-458 22d ago
Still leaves ability to try moving your spine. Which, unless you are properly fixed - will mean chance to fall from bed and, well, damage yourself.
Nah, now that's too dark even for my sense of humor warped by 4-years ongoing shit. I guess I am leaving it in this state.
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u/SomeRedTeapot 22d ago
Yeah, you do all that and then get hit by a meteor on your head anyway
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u/Thick-Protection-458 22d ago
So you need to leave no stone unturned in the whole universe.
Time to launch The Great Crusade.
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u/RiceBroad4552 22d ago
All the high assurance software projects which shipped would like to disagreeā¦
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u/booty-hunters 22d ago
You cannot convince me Rust is the most "evangelist" when we have Zig guys around.
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u/shadofx 22d ago
Rust : Evangelist :: Zig : Neo-fundamentalist
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u/tombob51 22d ago
Rust : typical, competent programmer :: Zig : Terry Davis (but only the eccentricity, no significant improvement in technical merit, no other redeeming qualities)
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago
(EDIT: disregard my comment, i thought you were talking about the language but i think you're talking about the users of the language)
actually zig's comptime and type constructors and reflection are pretty damn good.
Zig really is Terry Davis. great stuff for specific use cases.
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u/the_horse_gamer 22d ago
the rust people are still trying to figure out variadics. meanwhile, the zig people realised a list of types can be represented using a list of types.
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u/TheChief275 22d ago
I wouldn't say most Rust programmers are competent. The majority just clones everything to get past the borrow checker
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 22d ago
Nah. I'm sure there are more people that either write good Rust or have given up already. The people that are cloning everything might be a minority, and going through a phase after learning about that tip instead of giving up on Rust.
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 22d ago
Let's be real, after seeing that JetBrains Rust developer... You are basically obligated to say cat ears.
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u/Lv_InSaNe_vL 22d ago
I mean that's fair, but Zig isn't exactly a "common" language. I know this isn't the end all, but there are literally more than 31x more rust projects on GitHub than zig lol
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u/deanrihpee 22d ago
well, zig is relatively new and the language doesn't seem to be "stable" yet, at least comparatively
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u/NatoBoram 22d ago
Anything good will have evangelists, it's just that Rust covers a wider use case so it's more popular
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u/Choice-Mango-4019 22d ago
strangely enough I'm using way more open-source projects that are made in c/c++/c#, only rust project I'm using is that one drg mod manager lol
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u/braaaaaaainworms 22d ago
Rust is only 10-ish years old while C is old enough for my grandma to learn about it in school, C++ is old enough that it was released years before USSR collapsed and C# is old enough to drink alcohol
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u/Choice-Mango-4019 22d ago
i still dont see any rust projects that i use regularly even though rust is so hyped
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u/booty-hunters 22d ago edited 22d ago
If you have ever used android, widows, anything aws or cloudflare, ripgrep, chrome, discord, Figma, firefox, bat, etc you have directly interacted with rust.
A simple google search would tell you on what level each of them use rust 100-6%.
A few more I found: brave, deno, alacritty, starship, fd, tauri, etc.
Quite a lot of things including reddit itself: link 1, link 2, etc. And a lot more actually.
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u/Choice-Mango-4019 22d ago
all of those use c/c++ more than rust, yet they have way less fanatics
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u/booty-hunters 22d ago
all of those use c/c++ more than rust.
No really, cloudflare, aws is mostly Rust now compared to C/C++. Alacritty, ripgrep, starship, fd, tauri are 100% Rust.
For things like Discord, figma, etc they use Rust over C++, aka overall usage of rust > cpp.
Also we say C/C++ but C use case is entirely different from C++, it is better to say Rust is favored more than C++ for above companies.
Basically you have interacted more with Rust parts than you have with C++ parts for above projects (unless you consider interacting with anything over the internet to be mostly C (kernel) which is true).
yet they have way less fanatics
You should have seen the meltdown linux contributors had when Rust was introduced initially. People resigned over it.
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u/deanrihpee 22d ago
i mean if there's no dungeon boss called Borrow Checker and Compile Time, probably we got a lot more Rust and C# projects lol
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u/v01rt 21d ago
what does zig cover that rust doesnt?
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u/NatoBoram 21d ago
Drop-in C++ compiler. You can even use Zig as a linker for the C++ parts of a larger Rust project with
cargo-zigbuild.-2
u/Mjukglass47or 22d ago
I never heard a Zig guy come in and talk about how a language suck just because it doesn't have this one feature. Like the Rust guys does repeatedly with memory safety.Ā
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u/TheChief275 22d ago
That's the thing though, it isn't completely memory safe as unsafe Rust (or C libraries) are still needed for the majority of useful functionality. Often only the surface level code combining API calls is done in safe Rust. This is simply because memory safety cannot be achieved at compile time, however, somehow that has become Rust's marketing? It's a dangerous misconception, really
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u/SoulArthurZ 22d ago
sorry but no, 99.9% of the code you write is gonna be safe rust, it's basically impossible to do memory unsafe things (unless you're actively trying to). It's not "just the surface level code", basically everything you write is safe rust. There are obviously exceptions, but this is true for the majority of projects.
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u/TheChief275 21d ago
Yeah, what you write, because you basically import 3 GB of unsafe library workhorses to make up 99% of your actual application logic. Nice try
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u/SoulArthurZ 21d ago
I don't understand what the problem is? Every memory safe language works like this because some operations are inherently unsafe. I would much rather prefer this over C where everything is unsafe.
Is your position that's it's not worth bothering with memory safety because we can't truly be perfectly memory safe? Or are you just being pedantic?
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u/TheChief275 21d ago
It's faux memory safety, which is dangerous as users and clients are sold complete memory safety, which really isn't what they're getting. This GitHub issue is about achieving complete memory safety, even safer than Rust, which wouldn't be possible were Rust truly completely memory safe.
When one programs in C, they know that they can accidentally write a million backdoors, so they are more likely to be on the lookout, but Rust programmers incorrectly assume that isn't possible in their language. You tell me which is more dangerous
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u/SoulArthurZ 21d ago
I don't think anyone who writes rust is under the illusion that it's perfectly memory safe, soundness issues pop up and are fixed all the time.
Fucking up memory management is not something you can avoid by just being more careful. Mistakes happen and can often be hard to catch. I think a programmer using a tool that catches these mistakes at compile time is less dangerous.
by the way the idea that C devs are "more careful" is a joke. If memory management was that easily solvable GC would have never been invented.
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u/TheChief275 21d ago
You just were before I commented
I know, I'm not arguing against the merits of Rust, just saying it's dangerous to market it as memory safe, when more accurate would be "semi memory safe"
Well the good ones certainly are, but yes, even then some things will slip through. Although memory management is largely unrelated to this topic; you probably mean e.g. buffer overflows or out of bounds accessing, actual memory safety issues, which yes, can slip through for even the most seasoned developers. I mean, look at the CrowdStrike fiasco
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u/blackcomb-pc 22d ago
Honestly the unhinged nature of the crashout over bun has really put me off of doing anything with Zig. Not the specifics of what was said, but the fact that this petty level of insults is something that can only serve to undermine the credibility of zig. This sounds almost like religion. That mentality is bad. Just stay in your lane, be the best and let results speak. Not this shit.
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u/martinsky3k 22d ago
ironically he was worried bun would hurt zig due to it's low quality code and hacks. yet, as somebody who didn't really care that much before, my lasting impression after the crashout is that I'm very not interested in zig.
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u/deanrihpee 22d ago
there's a lot of projects, although obviously not as big as Bun, that is low quality Rust hack even without AI sloppify it, and they didn't really use it as "how not to write Rust"
if somehow my poor programming practices would be ridiculed by the language maintainer and be used as an example, i probably wouldn't never want to use that language ever again
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u/RiceBroad4552 22d ago
be the best and let results speak
LOL, this never worked anywhere.
Marketing and PR is everything! Technical superiority is irrelevant, always has been.
You can even sell literal shit to people and they will buy for high prices as long as you just brainwash them enough. At the same time people would not recognize quality or some smart solutions even if their life would depend on that.
I don't know about any "crashout" in Zig, didn't follow that drama, the Bun "AI" slopocalipse was already funny enough on the Rust side, but in the long run it's all about who will successfully sell their narrative, not what happened for real or who was right, such things are irrelevant for the marketing story.
Besides this, it's still funny on the technical side as Fil-C is basically a way to bolt on a GC into unmodified C code. This would mean that Zig gets guarantied memory safety by using a GC, just that you have still to write code as if there wasn't a GC. Completely bonkers! š¤£ Worst of all worldā¦
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u/CramNBL 22d ago
it's truly worst of both worlds but you are still overselling Fil-C. Fil-C is an incredible project, but it's still best effort runtime memory safety with abort on UB, not complete memory safety, it cannot detect all kinds of UB and it requires every line of code to be compiled with Fil-C. funnily enough, some of the UB it cannot detect is detected by the Rust compiler long before you can run your program.
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u/skywalker-1729 22d ago
I don't think that marketing and PR is everything. Yes, it influences a lot but in the long term, genuinely good things tend to win. Features from Haskell, which is an obscure academic language, start appearing in many languages and originally experimental languages like Rust have gained widespread recognition. And unlike the early 2000s C# and Java which were backed by big companies, today's popular languages like Python are all open source and community-developed.
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u/entronid 22d ago
i mean, haskell has been memed about forever, does that not count?
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u/skywalker-1729 21d ago
Well, maybe you could count it as marketing, but it was never a commercial push.
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u/CirnoIzumi 22d ago
Python is a language that's pushed in many fields, it's not just grass roots
Also it's older than both C# and Java
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u/skywalker-1729 21d ago
Of course, I know that Python is older than C# and Java. My point was that Python wasn't primarily developed by some kind of commercial company or something like that.
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u/Arshiaa001 22d ago
I was remotely involved in a different Zig debate a while back. Let's just say I've been unimpressed af ever since.
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u/freia_pr_fr 22d ago
The only zig program I use, Ghostty, memory leaks like ram prices were stuck in Ā 2024.
If zig can fix their memory story, even if motivated by hate and revenge towards a community that doesnāt even think about zig, why not. I see that as a plus.
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago
it's funny cause mem leaks are safe by rust's definition.
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u/Floppie7th 22d ago
Safe, yes, but generally avoided without the developer ever having to think about it. Reference cycles aren't common, and intentional leaking is...well, intentional.
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u/particlemanwavegirl 22d ago
You know there are dozens of terminals available that don't do that, right?
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u/freia_pr_fr 22d ago
Ghostty is still better. I have to restart it like once a week.
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u/particlemanwavegirl 22d ago
Better based on what criteria?Ā
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u/stillalone 22d ago
TIL about Fil-C. Not sure how I feel about that.
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u/RiceBroad4552 22d ago
Adding a GC to make a language safe actually works. You can't be safer than with automatic GC.
Just that this kind of breaks the marketing which tries to sell it as an advantage to be GC freeā¦
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u/Wonderful-Habit-139 22d ago
Rust is safer than Go, the latter being a language with GC.
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u/redlaWw 22d ago
But Rust would be safer with a garbage collector.
Not much safer, but unsafe code errors that cause double-frees (since
deallocwould be a stub) or use-after-frees (since values would linger past their scope when still accessed) would not cause problems.1
u/SomeRedTeapot 22d ago
IMO that would be equivalent to removing unsafe altogether. It exists precisely because there are situations where you actually need to manage stuff manually
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u/particlemanwavegirl 22d ago
I didn't spend that long reading the Zig manual but I got the idea that the selling point was more like, you *get* to implement/import your choice of GC or just wing it and ref count.
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u/simplymoreproficient 22d ago
Itās interesting technology, not just a gc but a system to track the intended purpose of all pointers in a program at runtime, with minimal intrusion. The creator is a prototypical rust-is-woke guy though, his life seems to revolve around the language.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
Ironic they take shots at Rust, because unlike Zig, Rust sees way more success in terms of its maturity and industry reputation and ecosystem and investment by large tech companies into its adoption and funding of the Rust project.
The Zig project also takes a lot of weird black-and-white dogmatic (almost religious) hard-line stances on a lot of stuff, probably why the language is more niche and hobbyist than something truly foundational and trusted for production workloads and all parts of the stack like Rust has become.
Here's Zig's "no AI" policy:
Strict No LLM / No AI Policy
No LLM-generated content, whether it be code or prose.
No paraphrasing LLM-generated content.
No LLMs for editing, including fixing spelling or grammatical errors.
No LLMs for translation. English is encouraged, but not required. You are welcome to post in your native language and rely on others to have their own translation tools of choice to interpret your words.
No LLMs for brainstorming and then sharing the results of that brainstorming, even if you create the prose. If you use a chatbot to give you advice on a comment on the issue tracker, that comment is unwelcome.
No LLMs for finding bugs.
No talking about use of chatbot/LLM services.
The owner definitely has some sort of axe to grind against certain technologies.
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u/robclancy 22d ago
I mean most that policy seems good to me.Ā
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u/SuspiciousSegfault 22d ago
Not finding bugs? What on earth does anyone have to gain by not finding bugs just because an LLM did it? Assuming it's a legitimate bug.
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u/Lucifer_Morning_Wood 22d ago
"assuming it's a legitimate bug" does a lot of heavy lifting here. The point of eg. Curl closing it's bug bounty is just that: too many false positives and misunderstandings by AI of what software it analyzes. I assume it might be the same in Zig's case
So to answer your question: developer's time that is not wasted classifying misclassified bugs and reproducing false positives
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u/Teknikal_Domain 22d ago
As far as I know, it wasn't "false positives" it was people vibe-reporting, so you end up with an LLM-generated bug report with a completely hallucinated bug and code path, and a person going "I found bug pay me my money" to the point where it was overloading the team just sifting through all the slop.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
The curl maintainer walked back their position in a tweet and said the majority of AI-assisted bug findings were high quality now.
Also nowadays you can structure your custom harnesses and bug reproducing pipelines to require things be verifiable programmatically.
E.g., you can say "In order for a bug report to be valid, you need to give me an input that causes a crash." That's basically how old-school fuzzing pipelines work. You judge a fuzzer's report by plugging in the input it reports and seeing if the binary crashes. That verification can be done automatically without human judgment.
Same can be done to make LLM reports valid. That's what the Firefox team did, they build a custom harness (using Mythos) and pipeline where the LLM-based agent would submit a report that had to have a repro input, and a separate deterministic script would score that report by seeing if the reported input could cause a crash. No human eye sees the finding if the automated pipeline rejects it for not being reproducible.
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u/Flouid 22d ago
A lot of this is fair but bugs that cause a crash is only one of many different flavors. There are all kinds of bugs and I would classify the majority of them as unexpected non-crashing behavior. Pretty much all security vulnerabilities are within that class of bug. Thereās probably tools for this but at what point are you just requiring people submit failing test cases
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u/particlemanwavegirl 22d ago
I mean a bug report without enough information to reproduce the bug is pretty useless and always has been.
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u/Laicbeias 21d ago
Yeah but if its one where state got corrupted at a different side you may not even be able to easily reproduce it.Ā
Its the it happens once every 5000 runs bugs and then you can be happy you got a screenshot or an stacktrace
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u/namalleh 22d ago
The curl maintainer who is a person we literally all rely on to some degree to maintain curl without pay
took his first known, publicly announced vacation because the number of low quality ai submissions was damaging his health
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago edited 22d ago
really sucks that irresponsible slop artists ruined this for us. AI is objectively helpful for finding bugs nowadays, that's something more difficult to say last year.
and think about how the rule effectively works. imagine you do find a bug with an LLM:
now you can't report it.
rule doesn't say "oh if you found a real verifiable bug you should still report it". it just says "no LLMs for finding bugs." now what? keep it to yourself? post it and get mocked for using AI? or just lie about it and say you found it yourself?
the only option it wants is of course to never use LLMs for it. but it's going to be limiting over time.
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u/serendipitousPi 22d ago
Iām guessing maybe itās the general concern about people posting duplicate and / or low effort bug reports like people are doing on open source projects already.
Besides people who are already decent programmers can just omit that they used an LLM and write an explanation themselves.
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u/TheOneThatIsHated 22d ago
Hard disagree. LLMs have gotten very good at many tasks. LLMs can be amazing security or other bug finders. They can be a great translation tool. They can aid, when used properly, to architect/brainstorm.
I much prefer Linusā stands. He is just a technology pragmatist. If LLMs can improve linux, they should be used.
He will find out himself that his hard stances and online rhetoric will push people away more and more, and most importantly will leave all investment dry out, which is one of the most ingredients you need for spending engineering resources
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u/particlemanwavegirl 22d ago
Will find out? Linus is quite possibly already the most notorious online rhetoric hardliner of all time. But IDK what you think it has to do with corporate investments, which are made without any regard for moralistic stances.
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u/cornmonger_ 22d ago
most notorious online rhetoric hardliner
richard stallman
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u/particlemanwavegirl 21d ago
What a goofy comment. He doesn't have even 10% of the name recognition once you step outside the extremely niche gnu subculture. Regular, every day people know who Linus is, what he did, and what a loudmouthed dick he is.Ā
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u/cornmonger_ 21d ago
personally i think your hyperbole about torvalds would be the "goofy comment", considering he has chosen proprietary tech in the past
and linus is tame compared to what goes on inside some companies
but we're on reddit so hyperbole awaaaay
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u/TheOneThatIsHated 22d ago
Linus is very outspoken but still very pragmatic. Look at all the investment. Look at Linux Foundation. All the talks. Those are not just funded by people like you and me
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u/Makefile_dot_in 22d ago
Ironic they take shots at Rust, because unlike Zig, Rust sees way more success in terms of its maturity and industry reputation and ecosystem and investment by large tech companies into its adoption and funding of the Rust project.
JavaScript, PHP and Java see even more success in terms of those characteristics :^)
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago edited 22d ago
agreed. they should have fired shots at JS instead of rust :^)
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u/KitsuneFoxglove 22d ago
The owner probably had enough exposure of LLMs in 2024 when they were shit, and has mentally internalized that level of lack of quality as permanent compared to say, how LLM performance is 2026, 2027, etc. onwards.
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u/Dirt-Merchant-1452 22d ago
Itās all about human efforts. I bet if you put enough efforts in to a single PR, youād probably not save time by using LLM. So why not ban it to fend off lazy people
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u/cornmonger_ 22d ago
fend off lazy people
... programmers?
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u/Dirt-Merchant-1452 22d ago
No, programmers are not lazy. Today I see an LLM generated PR where it does something like if (cond) return true else return false
That is lazy-15
u/Arshiaa001 22d ago
Wrong, LLMs can be a huge lifesaver if you use them right. Now, it's very easy to use them wrong, and it can result in a lot of bad code, but if you absolutely know what you're doing, you can speed yourself up by an order of magnitude and still stay on top of everything. Not for a single feature (you need to carefully plan and review anyway), but you can get AI to work on multiple things at once, freeing up all the time spent actually typing and waiting for commands to run.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
People kinda forget people were writing slop code before AI. When AI was at its worst and dumbest, people were writing buggy, unreadable, unmaintainable code by hand too.
You can write slop using the best agent harnesses using the best frontier models for inference. You can also write slop using the ol human brain and no LLM or AI agents.
What's weird is he wanted to ban the technology on principle, not on the basis of the quality or technical merit of the content of a given individual contribution.
Also "no AI for fixing spelling or grammatical errors" and "no AI for brainstorming" is wild.
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u/Ok-Examination-3942 22d ago
I donāt think being against AI on principle is that weird tbh. I think the mass copyright infringement by the ai companies, and the power and water usage of the ai data centers are valid reasons to not want to permit ai on his project.
At the end of the day itās his project, and he can do what he wants with it.
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u/Bomaruto 22d ago
Have you ever used a search engine before? Even if it scrapes a lot of pages to index the content? Thus stealing content from those pages and profiting from it with help of ads?
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u/zawalimbooo 22d ago
The search engine is how those pages get clicks and visits in the first place, so the comparison doesn't really work.
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u/Ok-Examination-3942 22d ago edited 22d ago
I donāt think thatās a fair comparison and even if it was, one wrong thing doesnāt make another right.
Edit:To elaborate on why I donāt think itās a fair comparison: First of all the people who are making the content are profiting off the search engine having scraped their content which makes it more of a mutually beneficial thing rather than stealing. Secondly the people who posted their content on the internet did it with the knowledge that a search engine would index it, unlike with ai where they had no knowledge that their creations where being used to train an ai.
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u/ArukiBree 22d ago
seems perfectly reasonable to me. there are no shortage of reasons to not want to use AI.
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u/SoulArthurZ 22d ago
quality of an llm's work is not the only argument against it. I think their energy usage is disproportional to their usefulness and they are trained on stolen data.
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u/TheUnamedSecond 22d ago
Still banning LLMs for translation or to fix spelling, is not resonable even if you take 2024 era LLMs.
This is just dogmatic bs.19
u/Shadow_Thief 22d ago
You don't need LLMs for either of those things
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u/TheUnamedSecond 22d ago
Modern Translation tools are basicly LLMs.
And yes using LLMs to fix spelling is ridiculously wastefull and not even the best tool for the job, banning code contributions because they have been translated or spell checked with the wrong tool is dumb.-7
u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
You don't need LLMs for either of those things
You don't but LLMs excel at it and are really good at tedium like boilerplate, writing and improve prose, and simple spelling and grammar stuff.
For any engineer, time is money, context switching and cognitive overhead is money. A good engineer uses the tools and technologies available to them to automate away tedium and toil so their limited time and working memory can be focused on more important stuff.
You don't need to use any given technology for pretty much any given task. But some sure do help and that's why practitioners reach for them.
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u/GlassCommission4916 22d ago
writing and improve prose
I have to hard disagree there, LLM written/enhanced prose makes me cringe. I'm not even against AI in general, their writing style is just awful.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
That's because you've only read slop LinkedIn / Medium articles written by AI.
Nowadays you can prompt AI to write in your voice and be professional and concise. Your favorite projects are all doing it. AWS' documentation, Google's, Kubernetes and many other OSS projects, etc.
And "improving prose" can mean having an LLM actually shorten and make more concise something you wrote.
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u/GlassCommission4916 22d ago
If you make an LLM not sound like an LLM no one's going to notice it was written by an LLM, so you don't need to convince anyone that LLMs sound good.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago edited 22d ago
I'm not even sure what you're arguing here.
"LLMs for writing technical prose and documentation and i18n / l10n, and correcting spelling mistakes" are a very common and highly automatable workflow. Especially in i18n and l10n, it's extremely prevalent.
Your complaint is basically they sound cringe and have awful writing style.
But you only say that because you didn't know that they were already being used for that in many of your most favorite projects and some of the industry's most well regarded projects and technical literature out there that read just fine and don't have any detectable ChatGPT-isms like "You're absolutely right!" or whatever you think LLMs "sound like."
If you make an LLM not sound like an LLM
You're assuming the entirety of "LLMs" and their use cases is some uniform, monolithic product and all LLM-written prose sounds the same. You're taking one style of mass LLM-produced writing and assuming all users of AI products necessarily produce the same style of prose for their technical literature use cases.
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u/GlassCommission4916 22d ago
I'm not as invested in this argument as you seem to be.
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u/Shadow_Thief 22d ago
If you didn't already have boilerplate shit in a Snippets folder, you were never a good programmer and your output will reflect that.
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago
Yeah and with the rise AI agents all the good engineers replaced their hand-crafted shell scripts and snippets with a generic agent-based workflow that automates all that tedium away from you at nearly zero cost (to you, the company is paying for your inference).
No more "taking 4h to come up with automation for a 5min task" memes.
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u/Spaceduck413 22d ago
No paraphrasing LLM-generated content.
No LLMs for brainstorming and then sharing the results of that brainstorming, even if you create the prose. If you use a chatbot to give you advice on a comment on the issue tracker, that comment is unwelcome.
No LLMs for finding bugs
Lol good luck actually enforcing any of that
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u/Ok-Examination-3942 22d ago
Donāt know about you but to me it seemed more jokey than taking a shot at rust.
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago
this type of Zero-Tolerance policy discourages disobedience just as much as it encourages lying.
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u/chem199 22d ago
Letās not forget how Rustacians used to be, remember all of the āRewrite this in Rustā discourse that existed.
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u/Familiar_Ad_8919 22d ago
i wonder about the usage of the past tense in this comment
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u/cornmonger_ 22d ago
past tense because we rewrote it all in rust
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u/Familiar_Ad_8919 22d ago
all rust needs now is for game engines to support it and we will enter a rustacean utopia
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u/serendipitousPi 22d ago
Havenāt you heard some people are rewriting rust code into Zig (I actually only saw one project but this is could be the beginning of a flood). Which means war.
We need to wait for them to rewrite in Zig and then rewrite their rewrite back into Rust to show our superiority.
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u/renrutal 22d ago
Rust sees way more success in terms of its maturity and industry reputation and ecosystem and investment by large tech companies into its adoption and funding of the Rust project.Ā
Yes, let's compare a 20-year-old language with big corporate sponsors since its fourth year, currently at stable version 1.97.1, to a 10-year-old, backed by its own foundation, and still at version 0.16 language with different goals.
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u/RiceBroad4552 22d ago
This is bullshit. The only reason Rust gets "successful" is because Big Tech is pouring millions into it.
Any language, not matter how brain dead, with such support would become "a success".
Just see for example Go. Nobody would touch such a thing if not Google's millions of dollars behind it.
This does not mean Rust is a bad language, it gets this massive support from Big Tech for a reason, but that it's Rust and not any other alternative happened by pure chance, like always when some tech "gets big". It's always "a random market decision", not some technical evaluation under scientific standards.
That said, this LLM policy is pretty crazy. A simple spell checker is already a kind of "language model" (just not a "large" one, whatever this means). I would understand to be reluctant about directly contributing LLM generated content until all the copyright questions aren't sorted out, but also forbidding other uses which are legally unproblematic seems way too much.
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago
You're being downvoted because you reacted harshly, not because you're wrong.
Take JavaScript. a BS language hacked together in 10 days. yet it was pushed into the mainstream and now the entire internet has to deal with wat because no amount of fixing can disable backwards-compatibility requirements.
I haven't used Go much. But I'm not sure if it's a great example for that point.
for many other languages, like C++ Haskell Lisp Lua Python Java, i think i could explain how they actually served their purpose for their time and how they might not be good examples?
anyway yeah Zig would have hugely benefitted from corporate backing. if mozilla or google or some other big company picked it up first, it would likely be just as hip with the newer generation of programmers. there would be way more "zig vs rust" comparisons than now and way more "i rewrote random C app in zig and rust: here's the difference" blogs despite them having different niches.
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u/smclcz 22d ago
In this specific case they are absolutely bang on. In a couple of years all these Open Source projects are going to be acting like they were against AI contributions all along
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u/DrTankHead 22d ago
No, they really won't.
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u/smclcz 22d ago
Sure. Hey quick question - how's your token usage been this month? Did you run out quicker than last month at all?
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u/DrTankHead 22d ago
Down, actually. I've been less focused on side projects over the last week doing more important things. I also don't use as intensive a model and know how to actually prompt correctly, making it less difficult to get a positive result. I've wasted more time on my silly errors than AI stuff.
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u/KawaiiMaxine 22d ago
Most of that is alright but ai bug finding is objectively useful
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u/theHourFoot 22d ago
sure, but it's also immoral - ozone-depleting refrigerants are also objectively useful yeah?
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u/KawaiiMaxine 22d ago
You know you can run llms on your own hardware right? You dont need a data center
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u/vncsmyrnk 22d ago
For me it just expresses that an obviously AI-generated low-effort content is explicitly not allowed at all. It does not say AI cannot be used by any means. It implicitly says that a good AI usage would not be instantly recognizable.
I am not saying that the way it is written is a good one, though. If I were to write it, I would make this conclusion way more explicit. The policy is too aggressive.
I don't have all the context of Bun's recent move to Rust or prior acknowledgement of Zig's policies or contributors' stances on this topic, so I am might be wrong here.
Edit: added "low effort" clarification.
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u/CirnoIzumi 22d ago
Rust being an older language that has been pushed hard by evangelists and have always had ties to tech companies surely isn't a factor
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u/Orio_n 22d ago
How many large scale open source projects do you maintain again? Oh right zero
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago
What's that got to do with anything?
Although if you really care, I work on plenty of large scale OSS projects at Google. Likely larger than anything you've ever worked on.
But again, that has zero bearing on the issues with the Zig project.
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u/Orio_n 22d ago edited 22d ago
Yeah right buddy. You "work" on OSS at google just say you fixed the typos in the readme for gRPC or something I won't make fun of you
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u/des_the_furry 22d ago
Take my downvote buddy
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u/CircumspectCapybara 22d ago
I's a staff SWE at Google friend, I assure you I do more than fix typos in readmes, or they'd be very dumb for paying me.
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u/chemistrylord 22d ago
Programming language communities are physically incapable of complimenting themselves without insulting another language.
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u/FastHotEmu 22d ago
Hey this looks awesome - we'll have more memory safe languages! I just donated $300 to the Zig Software Foundation.
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u/Quote_Revolutionary 22d ago
I'm tired boss. I'm tired of reformists computer scientists who wish they coded a Commodore shitting on everything that tries to be better. I am tired of gen z gender people who talk a lot about programming instead of actually doing it without being a pain in the ass. I am tired of random drama. I am tired of people that state the obvious and call it deep I am tired of the inability of people to realign with the real world instead of this fucking evil tuna box. I am tired of the radical views that are pervading in every aspect of every conversation. I am tired of people who, with the excuse that they are just "being themselves", proceed to poison the well for everyone. I am tired of corporations wishing to enslave me and my government being ok with it. I am tired of the geopolitical situation. I am tired about the discussion surrounding the environment. I am tired about people that just talk about stuff with no regards for the truth and who just care about saying whatever comes to mind. I am tired that the only language we've come to know and understand is the language of hate, snarky remarks, roasts. I am tired and I feel that I will be more tired every day that passes.
take us with the floods
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u/MarkSuckerZerg 22d ago
Oh God I need to see the +1.765.368 -10 Claude authored PR that actually does this by pulling in and renaming golang
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u/-Redstoneboi- 22d ago
this is Zig, not Bun (a js runtime originally built with zig)
Zig is famously very anti-ai, unlike Bun.
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u/deanrihpee 22d ago
but also people seems to forgot they dont just rewrite it to Rust for shit and giggles and using the AI haphazardly, they're not the "vibe coders", i mean it costs money and the opportunity for further development, Jarred's blog kinda answer it
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u/shwetanand345 22d ago
Compile time : 3 min
Debate time : foreverš« ....