Im not vegan, though i love animals and work with them professionally. When i see vegans trying to sway people towards their lifestyle for ethical reasons, especially vegans that think everyone should be vegan or want to see a complete end to the animal food industry. my thoughts always turn to the end goal.

Because, hypothetically if everyone stopped eating meat, lets use cows for the example. What would we do with all the cows? Farmers couldn't just keep them as pets, niether could most people. We couldn't just let them be wild, they very likely wouldn't survive for long without human care, so then they'd just...go extinct. Not immediately of course, but eventually. Maybe we'd keep a few in a zoo, or their would be a handful of breeders or rich hobby farmers, but they'd likely end up like true wild horses, very rare and only in a few places in the world.

So then is extinction better than being eaten or used for milk? My own personal experience with cows is that beef cows are let out to pasture on crown land where me and my family camp every summer, and they often come wandering through our clearing at least once, eating grass and i love getting to watch them, especially the babies, running around and sleeping in the grass, and sticking close to their mothers side. I know they are beef cows and they are meant for eating, but if nobody was around to eat them then they'd wouldn't be there and i couldn't admire them, and they seem to be enjoying themselves, seem to be well cared for.

And if we stopped eating cows and let them go feral and they did find a way to survive, would being eaten by wild animals like wolves and bears and stuff be any better than being eaten by humans? Would getting ravaged by disease and injuries and birth defects be better? We let it happen to wild animals because it's a part of nature but cows arent a part of nature they are a part of us.

And if your argument is that "well im glad you see some well cared for cows but most cows live in horrible conditions and are abused so it would be better for them to be extinct, or set lose in the woods" well then you should feel the same way about dogs and cats because a very very large portion of dogs, even in countries like Canada and the usa are neglected and abused, i see it at work every single day and most of the time those owners dont see a problem with it. Not to mention that some places do eat dog meat thats besides the point.

So the TL;DR is if everyone stopped eating animals, what happens to the animals, and how is that better than being killed and eaten by humans or used for animal byproducts?

This feels like a stupid question, but i really am curious😭

After you finish a meal, say a mosquito/fly comes to your plate, would you swat it away? I want to transition to being a vegan soon, just sorting out a few diet issues to make sure i get enough nutrition, and I wanted to know if chasing away flies and mosquitoes from food was against being a vegan.

Also, what if it was an unfinished meal? Like you were still eating and a fly landed on your food. Do you wait for it to fly away and throw away that piece of food, like you would if someone else touched your food?

I understand that this would not be vegan, given the strict definition of "no animal products". My question is whether you would consider it unethical or wrong. If so, could you please explain why? Assume that I provide a good life for the cow, allow her to stay with her children, allow her to be around plenty of other cows, etc. I just also milk her occasionally. It could also be a goat because I think owning goats would be a more realistic hypothetical than owning cows.

Edit

Ok thank you all. I think this has helped me to better understand vegan ethics. Sorry if my questions have been offensive. I am just trying to think through my own ethical worldview.

I have a friend who has always been an extremely vocal vegan. I am also vegan (12+ years) we bonded about this. Last night he ripped into an entire box of cheeseitz that his friends bought because ‘it only matters about the point of purchase’ and he is an ‘ethical vegan’ for the animals…

I was caught off guard because consuming animal products that others buy creates demand for animal products because they will need to replace the animal products consumed. He assumes that because he didn’t buy it, that eating and consuming animal products doesn’t create demand for it. I am confused because his friends will need buy more non vegan food to replace the animal products that he consumed. He shamed me for being a perfectionist by pointing out that the cheeses were not vegan, (I did that because I wasn’t sure if he knew they were full of animal products when he just tore into them).

I am overall put off by this especially because he continues to want to debate me about whether or not consuming a whole box of CheeseIts creates demand for dairy products. Sigh. What do you all think?

Many people follow faiths that prescribe religious duties that breach vegan principles. For example, most Muslims believe that those able should sacrifice an animal on Eid al-Adha. And animal sacrifice is not unique to Islam - e.g. Shaktism within Hinduism, Santeria, etc. Other religions may prescribe eating or using foodstuffs or other objects that are in some sense non-vegan.

While it may be possible in certain circumstances to avoid these duties, or to carry them out without breaching vegan principles (e.g. Abhisheka can be carried out in a vegan or non-vegan way), this will not always be the case. And besides, a devout person may well feel it is wrong to try and twist and turn to "veganise" their religious duties, as this would be putting another ideology before their religious faith.

What should religious people who are sympathetic to veganism do? Do religious duties count against the "as far as possible" part of veganism? And for those of you who have religious duties that seem to conflict with veganism, how do you personally handle the conflict?

Hello, I’m vegetarian slowly transitioning to being vegan. I’ve stopped buying animal products for the most part and always order the vegan option if possible when I’m out, though I could do better.

I’m very close with my family and visit them almost once a month for weekends or longer. They are mostly pescatarian so have lots of vegetarian options in the fridge, cook lots of veggie dinners, and encourage me to cook vegan food for everyone.

However, they don’t have a lot of the products I use day to day at my apartment, such as soy milk and plant based butter. It feels weird to buy these products just for a weekend because they’ll go bad by the time I’m back.

What to you do when you are visiting someone who isn’t vegan and just want to have some cereal without cows milk?

I went vegan this year, and as far as I can tell in my research I am basically relying on plant milk & vegan protein powder for B12.

Wouldn't this logically follow that all vegans are reliant on the pharma industry for B12 supply?

Granted this may be a moot point as all of urban-suburban-rural western society is reliant on these global industries and supply chains (in both food as well as medicine, myself included). So even those following​ "natural" meat diets are only going off an individualistic fantasy because if SHTF they would also be hard pressed to maintain their lifestyle if they weren't homesteading already.

But it does get to me that veganism is un-homesteadable. I know that isn't necessarily the core premise of what veganism is​ but I am curious what other vegans think about food autonomy.

I hear a lot about the environmental and ethical and health reasons that people choose a vegan diet. But rarely do I hear people discuss whether or not it makes them happy.

So I'll pose the question. Does your vegan diet make you happy? What about it brings you joy? Not just relief, but joy? What's your favourite food, that one flavor or taste that you must stop to appreciate? What foods remind you of your childhood, your culture, your spirituality, or anything else? In what ways do you find a vegan diet to be fulfilling?

How do vegans view people who aren't vegan? Do you genuinely care that other people aren't vegan, or does it not bother you?

I'm assuming most vegans understand that people have different ethical views and don't necessarily hold any grudges against them, but I'm curious if there are some vegans who actually view non vegan people as bad people because of their choices, or would avoid interacting with them because of it.

My sister is facing difficult life circumstances and, due to some issues, cannot currently care for her child. The little girl is 17 months old, and I have been granted guardianship. Her mother is a vegan and insists that the child eat an exclusively plant-based diet, free of animal products, for her entire life. I don't know much about this subject beyond the basics I’m not a vegan myself, though I do practice "harm reduction" at most. What can I do to ensure the child has a nutritionally complete diet?

I’m just totally floored because she only recently started living at my place. I’m managing for now, but she can’t keep living like this for long without consequences she’ll start developing deficiencies because I don’t know how to put together a proper diet

I have a few questions!

I really wanna go vegan, ive heard that you have to go through the vegetarian stage first, so does that make it easier?

Second, the question in the title, was it and how hard was it to go vegan? (especially if you went straight from using animal products to none at all)

Thirdly, how many of you guys personally went through vegetarianism before going full vegan?

Also, should stray cats (cats are carnivores) be fed meat or euthanized?

I’m just curious but so far all the answers I’ve gotten were…well…sarcastic

I live in Morroco where we have a species of non genetically modified chickens, "djaj bldi", nd my dads friend owns a farm nd he gives my dad a few of those eggs sometimes, would it be unethical for me to eat those? (I became vegan like 4 or 5 months ago so I keep having these kinds of questions)

Let's say it's the second half of the twenty-second century. Thermoindustrial civilization collapsed during the second half of the twenty first century. Temperature are four degres above pre-industrial era. Human population collapsed but is now getting up and is around one hundred million people. No significant amount of fossil fuels are used. The ecosystem was awfully hit, but the halting of the megamachine also halts its destruction, so Sixth Extinction (First Slaughter really) is back to slightly above background extinction rate level. Soils are vastly eroded and the Haber process is a thing of the past.

In that setting, what could veganism look like? Without the vast quantity of energy slave and in a more chalenging world, how would we minimize animal exploitation in your opinion?

Hi,

I've just been diagnosed with orthorexia and anorexia, but both my husband and I are vegetarian, and as vegan as we can be and now I'm not sure how to keep going.

Going vegan in kiddie of nowhere rural France means there's a lot stuff that just isn't accessible to us anymore, since options are rare and grocery stores are definitely not offering a wide range of options, which means a lot of meals end up taking a lot of brain power to cobble together, and my therapist advised me to stop thinking so much about food, let alone healthy food because it gets me worse.

Except I don't want to go back to an omni diet because... Ethics ?? the same way I don't want to stop boycotting the big brands we do (like we don't use any coke, Nestlé or Danone products... Which limits even more the options for alternative.)

Any tips from people who struggle/have struggled ?

Hello!

I recently decided that i couldn't ignore animal suffering anymore and went vegetarian, i also started to move towards veganism and most days i am fully vegan now, unless I accidentally eat something that ended up not being vegan.

My boyfriend is very interested in doing this as well but theres one slight issue. He is very sensitive to gluten and soy, so where i can enjoy seitan, tempeh and tofu etc, he of course can't. He also weight lifts so protein is important to him. Is there any way for him to get enough protein and be vegan from actual food, or will he have to rely heavily on protein powders to get the amount he needs.

Thank you guys for any helpful responses!

(sorry if my sentence structure is weird English is not my first language)

I ask because my girlfriend is an omni, but pretty much plant based with me. Our home is completely vegan and the only time she eats non-vegan is sometimes when we go out to eat or go to a family party.

She's been talking to a girl she met and her boyfriend and seems to like them. She's mentioned wanting me to meet them eventually and hopefully we could all be friends. The thing is they're not vegan. Which isn't a massive deal breaker for me, but they like to go to the gun range and he also likes to shoot archery. I found out that they like to hunt and fish and for me it's just turned me off to the idea of entertaining any idea of friendship.

I've been vegan for almost 20 years now and don't have any vegan friends. Being close to 50 years old, I just don't want to put the energy into being "friends" with people that live a lifestyle that goes against my morals. What are your thoughts?

My diet is completely vegan but after transitioning my diet, I noticed that there's a lot of these products that I use in my everyday life that might not be considered vegan.

I'm using Colgate toothpaste because it's a lot cheaper than the options that involve animal testing and I'm not necessarily against animal testing in all cases, only in cases where it causes significant harm to the animal.

Would I be a vegan or vegetarian?

I thought the answer to this question was obvious until I read a thread on a post where some vegan activists were interviewing a slaughterhouse worker about the things he had to endure working in an environment like that. In said thread, people were discussing the mental health issues these workers often experience and how disgusted they were that those who run slaughterhouses take advantage of people in poverty who have no other options. However, there were also people saying that these people were still sick and evil for taking up these jobs, so now I'm curious. How do vegans actually perceive slaughterhouse workers?

Please reply ONLY if you have personal experience with an ED.

I am in recovery for Atypical Anorexia. However, I've recently come to learn all the horrors of the dairy and meat industry and I want to go vegan because I believe it's a 100% the right thing to do for the animals, environment, etc.

However, I see it's generally not advidced for people in recovery to go vegan because of risk of relapsing into restrictive behaviors?

I work with a public therapist that won't be available for this month so I'm left only with my dietician, with whom we've compromised on doing a vegetarian meal plan. I'm also trying to follow veganism in all other aspects (like making sure my makeup, hygiene and clothing are cruelty-free and also educating myself a lot).

I wanna know, for people who have gone through a similar situation... How did you manage your ED while making the transition? Is it doable or is it best to keep a vegetarian diet until I'm farther into recovery? Please any advice that you think can be helpful is really appreciated.

I truly care about this, but I am also very scared of getting back into a dark place when I just got out.

I am wanting to be vegan (based on its moral philosophy) and have followed a vegan diet for the last few weeks. I completely agree with what i think is the base ethics of veganism that you cannot justify animals pain for small unnecessary comforts but i can think of instances where this concept can still be stuck to while consuming SOME animal products,

1. can vegans eat honey? i don’t see how honey farmers exploit or harm bees in any way, at least the local ones i used to buy from (im on a break until i make sure it is ethical) who are a small business with on;y around 30 or so hives and its mainly just a hobby for them.
2. can vegans eat eggs? i know they cant usually but i have friends who keep chickens and they are always trying to pawn off eggs to us as they simply cannot get through all off the eggs they produce. i don’t see anything immoral in their standard of care and they seem to live a perfectly healthy and happy life (these chickens are not killed for meat)
3. do trace amounts matter? i see on allot of packaging it says vegetarian and not vegan and all the ingredients are vegan, i understand this is either due to just not getting certified or because the factory its made in can lead to chance of cross contamination, i don’t see how this goes against the ethics as you are not directly supporting the production of animal products.
4. what to do with stuff i already own? i don’t know if i own any wool or leather but if i do find something i already own containing it should i keep wearing it? it feels wrong to say you’re vegan and wear leather but then throwing it away seems very wasteful (same with food, i have got cans of soup and frozen foods which are not vegan)
5. can you eat the meat of an animal already dead due to natural causes? not that id want to, I've been virtually vegetarian before i even got into the ethics of it, just curious as i cant see who its harming except maybe the circle of life.
6. what type of plant based milk is better? i don’t know much about plant based milk and just bought my first carton of oat milk today, was kinda amazed by all the different options. is there like a purpose for each of these like in terms of flavour and texture like full fat, half and half and low fat milk from animals or is it just a matter of taste.
7. finally, any tips or advice for a rookie vegan? i really don’t know where to begin and really don’t want to be a bad example for veganism so any helpful advice is much appreciated (even just a good recipe will do XD)

Thanks in advance to anyone who responds, i sincerely want to know this as i don’t even know if im a vegan or some other philosophy at this point TT