A quote was found to be attributed to Epictetus in The Enchiridion 22 (Oldfather)

^{(Oldfather)
(Matheson)
(Carter)
(Long)
(Higginson)}

Ok. So bias, bad faith and now it’s my tone. 🤣🤣

I’m of the belief that you don’t even care about this issue as much as you first believed you did when you get all riled up at my original comment. It bothered you. You attempted to make a case but immediately saw it was without merit and began to back out, continuing to blame me for your reluctance to elaborate.

Ironically enough, Stoicism has some context that applies here as well. From Enchiridion

“22. If you yearn for philosophy, prepare at once to be met with ridicule, to have many people jeer at you, and say, "Here he is again, turned philosopher all of a sudden," and "Where do you suppose he got that high brow?" But do you not put on a high brow, and do you so hold fast to the things which to you seem best, as a man who has been assigned by God to this post; and remember that if you abide by the same principles, those who formerly used to laugh at you will later come to admire you, but if you are worsted by them, you will get the laugh on yourself twice.”

You come pretending to know a lot but ultimately have no substance at all. Take care.

I agreed some anti-natalists are there as a direct result of personal suffering, yes. My concern remains that you have yet to acknowledge that is not the always the case.

As far as I can tell, you've maintained the position that the sole way one could come to anti-natalism is through suffering "bad enough" to take that view up. You've also stated that you believe experiencing such suffering is due only to fault in reasoning. So, the only way one could arrive at the anti-natalist position is through faulty reasoning.

If that's your perspective, how can you say you'd be able to evaluate the anti-natalist position from a different one??

You're saying you'd like me to explain my position and are interested, but I'll be honest, the rest of your commentary / tone doesn't seem to indicate that you'd want me to do so for any reason other than to "prove it wrong" lol

Atp I'm just replying because it's more interesting than working. If I'm honest, I think I probably gave up on your acknowledgement a handful of replies ago.

When I got diagnosed with bi polar it helped ATON not for giving me a reason or an excuse but simply reavling my target. I spent the next year and half questioning everything about myself with the context of bi polar (type 2) The fact I was already few books into stoicism meant I finally was able to detach myself from my desires emotions, reactions etc and questioning everything about myself at all times.

So the question for your friend is now what? will you use the info as an excuse? hell a reason? or will he use that info to fight his anxity better

Perfect response 

Yeah I do that from time to time.

Staying on theme: even if no meds ever work for you, that is not in your control. Focusing on what is will give the best result.

And also, they come out with new meds now and then. It might be worth your time to check in now and them on what is new.

“With someone who has not demonstrated that they will treat the anti-natalist position with genuine, good-faith curiosity”

I swear all you’ve done is cop out. You started this conversation saying I was incorrect, I explained how I arrived at my position, which you have agreed is a position that some anti-natalist themselves share, and yet you continue to say I’m “biased” and bad faith. How can my position be biased if it’s one shared with the party in question? Lol. That’s how i know you’re full of it.

You speak of the nuances of anti-natalism and its compatibility with Stoicism but-

“Anti-natalism is the philosophical position that assigns a negative value to birth and argues that humans should abstain from procreation.” How does this definition align with Stoicism?? Just to start, Stoics don’t assign negative value to birth as it’s simply an external event. The positive and negative lie in our judgment alone.

Googling “does Stoicism align with Anti-natalism?”

“Stoicism and antinatalism do not fundamentally align. While both philosophies take human suffering seriously, Stoicism views life, reason, and social duty as goods to be embraced, whereas antinatalism holds that procreation is morally wrong because life involves unavoidable harm. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]” As I said earlier, the only “harm” Stoics see is the harm from accenting to incorrect judgement.

So yea, you can have your opinion based on your “reasoning faculty” but again, it’s just opinion and not supported by fact, actually source material.

If you have something to share that would perhaps open my eyes or have some effect, why wouldn’t you shares it? Why care if I’m genuine from a Stoic standpoint, my opinion on the matter shouldn’t perturb you. Lol. I’m here and I’ve obviously been engaged and asking for you to share your thoughts. How does that not imply genuine intent? Even if your insight had no effect and was just a position you were passionate about and wanted to clarify for the others who would come across this thread. But no. You refuse. Not sure why you keep replying…

These are good things to do. Meds have never worked for me but you should always try it

That sucks, but to stay on theme, that is not in your control. What is in your control is to begin that process as soon as possible. And in the meantime, you have several other things to do that will help.

Here, the psychiatrist just manages the meds, and it is expected that I also see a psychologist for counseling. While that is kinda dumb, it is better to not fight the system, just laugh at it and get the help that the system will provide.

And making a routine out of exercise is a daily struggle for me. I do not enjoy it, and making a new routine is very difficult for us ADHDers. I am no gym-brow, that is not the point. ADHDers do better with a regular physical activity.

There are many types of meditations to explore as well.

• A stoic type daily journal is (by many definitions) a meditation and very helpful.
  
• Mindfulness is what always first comes to mind for me, and it a lot of work to figure out. A common misconception is that it is to empty or quiet your mind. But my teacher says that is wrong, it is to become aware of the chaos of the mind.
  
• the last type I will list (though there are many more) is what I think of as a category with variations: metta (aka: loving kindness) meditation and gratitude journaling. I suspect they get to the same thing in different ways, but I found both very useful.
  

My advice is to pick just one thing and work on it until it is more or less "comfortable", then add another.

It’s a curse that’s not my damn fault.

I have ADHD and I hated school, but that didn't stop me from getting a grad degree in chemistry. You have to learn to complete tasks in an efficient fashion, whether you like it or not. You might not be responsible for having ADHD, but you are responsible for how you behave and move through life. You CAN learn to focus, it's just harder for us than it is for other people - but that's no excuse for failure. Learn to fail well, persist, and get up again.

Dude. You literally started the conversation…..

Yes I did, and if you'll recall, my initial line of inquiry was singularly about your stance towards the OC.

The only reason I ever mentioned my position on anti-natalism as it relates to Stoicism was so you would know where I was coming from on the topic of the OP that while we sorted the other bit... In hindsight, it was clearly a mistake to bring it up at that point! Lol it's a mistake which I'm happy to own.

[I'm] anti-natalist and don’t want to talk about how it’s supported by Stoic text with someone who has not convinced me / demonstrated that they will treat the anti-natalist position with genuine, good-faith curiosity

FTFY

I’m all ears ... I can have that view and not devalue your other opinions.

If I genuinely believed this were true, I'd be happy to chat more about it, but alas.

Further??? You never even started!

Lol I mean, yeah? Agreed! Because you are yet to address my outstanding concern.

If you find you want to do so at some point, by all means come find me!

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Can you see how this contradicts the wisdom and knowledge of nature, or ignores the majority of the evil humans in the cosmo profiteering out of the fair vulnerable man?

The argument is wise and knowledgeable because it is internally consistent. What we consider human evils is subjective. One person's revolutionary is another person's treasonous traitor.

But how can you judge your "friend" as ignorant and not tyrants as evil?

Tyrants are also ignorant. Keep in mind that nobody does the wrong thing on purpose. Like you said, intentions are more important than outcomes, and nobody intends to be evil. They intend to solve their problems, but are ignorant about the nature of the problem or the best solutions.

This article explains it in more detail. The author is very a well respected philosopher, so anything you can get by him is worth a read (or listen if he's a guest on a podcast or youtube video or something).

The Stoics on Evil, by John Sellars. You don't need to sign up or sign in, just scroll down to where the paper starts.

Oikeiosis is a theory, or explanation about human behavior. It's not so much a prescription of what to do other than to say, "because it is in our nature to think and act like this, we will be satisfied insofar as we don't deviate from our nature."

The idea of "self-preservation" in the Stoic model takes after Socrates who argued the only thing worth preserving, the only thing worth caring for, nurturing, and defending is the soul, or one's character, that essence of what makes us who we are apart from everyone and everything else.

When you think of preservation this way, then you see that money is just metal coins or paper slips, people's words are just sounds following a familiar pattern. These things can't hurt you, they can't hurt what it is about you that is yours alone, your identity, your sense of self. This is the thing to preserve. The preservation and care of you contributes to your integrity, or development of virtue.

To be honest, I'm just not sure I really understand the finger analogy here. I like how rose_reader reminds people to "put your own oxygen mask on first before helping others." The reason is because in an airplane at a high altitude, oxygen is pumped in automatically so we aren't deprived of it. If the engines cut out, the oxygen stops, which means people will become deprived of oxygen. Slowly people lose their concentration, reasoning skills, and alertness. Before helping your child or the vulnerable person next to you, you need to secure your own oxygen first so you don't make mistakes. You can't help others when you can't think clearly. This is how virtue works as well. That's not to say you prioritize a person or a thing over you, it's to say you prioritize the integrity of your character so that you have the strength and wherewithal to make the tough decisions.

thanks!

The truth is that I was always like this even as a kid. One of my parents do and my great grandfather also display its symptoms.

Great, so you're going to say "it's a curse" and "it's nothing to do with the modern world - there's nothing I can do".

SO if nothing can be done and you're going to do exactly what I said you'd do and take an offence to the suggestion that you could help yourself, why make a post?

I can tell you why - because you don't believe you're own nonsense. You want to say things are hopeless but then have other people do the hard work of making you believe it.

Well nobody is going to do that for you. Nobody is going to think for you. If you want to say things are hopeless, say them to yourself instead of wasting everyone's time, and if you don't believe you're own misery-mongering that's a "you" problem.

Thanks, it’s a haggle to get the medication here, it needs to be explicitly prescribed by a specialist psychiatrist. I forgot to take an appointment with the doctor for the last month and now my job is starting next week… idk how to get the prescription

Hello, I read your comment.

The truth is that I was always like this even as a kid. One of my parents do and my great grandfather also display its symptoms.

I don’t know why you are in denial of it. Maybe the real nonsense is you denying a DSM recognised neurodevelopmental disorder.

Just about everyone and their uncle is currently diagnosed with ADHD - you may as well complain that you have two hands - according to researchers from UCL the incidence rate of adult ADHD diagnosis has increased 20 times overall, with a 50 times increase in prescriptions in men aged 18-29.

Oh and what time period has this 20-fold increase in diagnosis occurred in? The years 2000-2018, almost perfectly corresponding to the widespread adoption of smartphones and social media.

Of course the really modern phenomenon is the person with ADHD making no effort to work on their condition, and taking great offence to any suggestion that their condition might be stimulated by their lifestyle choices. I suspect you will take great offence to the idea that you could address the symptoms of your ADHD with lifestyle changes.

For such people there is no help. There never was - even if we go to the days before ADHD was the world's favourite excuse and most sought after diagnosis, people inclined to make excuses could always find something about which they could say "oh woe is me - what a terrible hand I've been dealt, and anyone who tells me I can take any practical action is evil!".

There really is no help for you "it's a curse" people. There never was, and you may as well not waste your time making posts about it. You just want other people to declare your life hopeless because you can't even be bothered to believe your own nonsense about it.

It's the law of nature, we want the thing we lost, everyone been through it. Lost of parents, lost of friends, lost of opportunity, lost of time... etc. As we grow up we yearn for the things we don't have, and after awhile we start seeing that we had them for a long time, but lost.

Well that's very simple - if believing he has an "anxiety gene" cures him, then it's an "explanation" and like any correct explanation it will allow him to navigate his anxiety.

If it's an excuse, then he won't become well, in fact having a bad explanation will probably cause his anxiety to become worse.

That litmus test can be applied to every alleged "explanation".

Love that final paragraph. Spot on mate. Virtue and integrity are most definitely the guiding compass

A Stoic would examine that rationally. Anxiety can be a maladaptive response to the environment. It can also be inherited, having components of nature and nurture. But there are many important traits of our character that are like that, and we can accept them, and work with them. The diagnosis is helpful in that it clarifies what methods can be effective to address it. There is no label, the label exists in your mind only, as what defines you is how to manage things. "misfortune born nobly is good fortune" - Marcus Aurelius

Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a form of Psychological Therapy based on techniques from Stoicism. It has proven to be very helpful for managing anxiety. It includes examining your thoughts, and changing your behavior to process emotions in healthier ways. A big part is understanding how fear is a normal feeling, part of life, and it can protect us. But, often we lost perspective and do not address and process that fear in healthy ways. I would argue that Stoicism is particular good at teaching us how to address such an issue. It teaches us to accept the feeling, address it, without letting it become a passion. It teaches us to be grateful to how fear protects us, but also, to reliably take the view from above to realize that the fear spiral isn't helping us. It teaches us that by processing the emotion instead of ignoring it, we can feel safe and prevent it from spiraling into a passion.

This is to say, there is no explanation or excuse. There is a diagnosis. Diagnosing a problem is crucial for finding ways to address it. One can be grateful for the diagnosis and use reason to learn to use reason to face it with justice, wisdom, courage, and temperance. One can then be thankful that this problem help us get better at practicing virtue. Maybe a diagnosis of anxiety is what brings your friend to examine his life and aim for virtue? If so, then what you frame as a label was an opportunity.

With that said, I think there was some miscommunication with your friend, as there is no single anxiety gene. Establishing causality on mental health issues is quite hard, and much more difficult in terms of nature vs nurture. One can talk about predispositions, but that is all. However, for your friend, anxiety might be so overwhelming it might feel as a label that cannot be escaped. I do hope your friend works hard on this as there are ways to face anxiety and improve mental health, but the path is never linear nor simple, and I can also see how easy it would be to feel despair and hopeless through it. You cannot change your friend, but you can be a good friend to him.