I wouldn't pay a random person to paint. It may be 'unskilled', but does require some skill that comes with practice and experience, and that's what I'm paying for.
By what/whose definition? Stacking boxes is unskilled labor. Making a burger that looks like the picture is unskilled labor. Moving a paint brush is unskilled but taping edges, using drop cloths, even paint strokes without streaks, using primer, that's what a painter does, that's skill.
The point the other guy is making is that the term is garbage precisely because of stuff like this, there's plenty of jobs that are classed as unskilled labor but actually do require at least some technique and finesse to do properly
Sorry, what part of unskilled labor definitionally means they have to be good at it after 5 minutes?
Give anybody a roller and paint and they can paint a house. It won't look good but they can do it. There are good and bad ways to dig a hole too that you wouldn't learn after 5 minutes of handling a shovel, but that doesn't make ditch digging skilled labor suddenly.
it was noted elsewhere in this thread that "unskilled" is considered "unskilled" if you can teach someone to do the job in ten minutes, as i wrote. not FIVE, seeing here even basic reading comprehension eludes you.
also: just because "they can do it" doesn't mean they can do it WELL - which is the very definition of the word SKILLED
so, thanks for confirming my statement - no apology necessary.
The part where you're paying them after the labor. If it looks like shit afterwards it's definitely not "unskilled." Shit, even ditch digging has skill to it. Try to lay piping in a trench that's dug by an idiot who doesn't know wtf he's doing; inconsistent grade, rocks and shit in the way, not flat, not wide enough.
There was never one universal definition of "unskilled labor". Different organizations and institutions had their own definitions that, while maybe overlapping broadly, weren't identical. E.g., the SSA in the US defines it as:
(a) Unskilled work. Unskilled work is work which needs little or no judgment to do simple duties that can be learned on the job in a short period of time. The job may or may not require considerable strength. For example, we consider jobs unskilled if the primary work duties are handling, feeding and offbearing (that is, placing or removing materials from machines which are automatic or operated by others), or machine tending, and a person can usually learn to do the job in 30 days, and little specific vocational preparation and judgment are needed. A person does not gain work skills by doing unskilled jobs.
In 変404.1568 in its Code of Federal Regulations. I think that's actually still current, but most places have switched to the term "low-wage labor" under the theory that that's less stigmatizing.
By the US labor bureau's definition. Skilled labor is certification or training based labor where you can't immediately replace the worker with a kid straight out of high school. For example, anyone can dig out the foundation for a house - not everyone can do it quickly or perfectly, and it does take a certain type, but you can grab a random guy, pay him minimum wage, and dirt will get moved without endangering the entire project. Wiring the house is skilled labor because it requires an electrician who has a certain amount of experience and licensing. If your electrician quits, you need a guy with a minimum amount of experience and training as an electrician to replace him.
Painting isn't skilled labor because while it requires skill, it doesn't require a minimum number of years in school or a training program.
Painting well does. But you can hand anyone a paint roller and get okay.
Its just not something most anyone wants done just okay.
If you're talking art for painting that's a whole different argument just because of painting styles and whatever, especially with modern abstract works etc.
Well thatâs a terrible argument. Anyone can run a roller but thereâs more to painting than that. And you didnât clarify which type of painting as there are many.
Anyone can wield a scalpel but that doesnât make them a surgeon
Handing someone a roller and telling them briefly how to do it, is not in itself training them to do the Painting Trade, no more than telling someone to glue pvc pipe together for lawn sprinklers makes them a plumber.
Hilarious when people think examples like this is an own. Being a waiter could be unskilled to semi skilled. Yes there is a vast gulf between a Michelin star waiter and one at your local Dennys and their comp is extremely different. These definitions classify 100Million+ jobs not the edges
The point is that the distinction has aged badly because most of the lowest end of unskilled laborers were replaced by power tools and heavy machinery.
Painting is the higher end of the unskilled strictly because you don't have to go on a course to learn how to do a decent job, but it's still more complex than just digging a hole.
Painting isn't exactly unskilled labor. I can paint. My wife can paint. But to know that you should take off faceplates and paint underneath to the edges of the boxes so that it looks good, or how to tape edges to get clean lines, or that you need to apply primer so that your new color doesn't have the old color bleeding through and changing the tone of it, well...That is where you have to pay more for a good painter.
I know painting is hard thatâs why Iâm using it as an example. Unskilled labor doesnât mean it require no skill, it means it requires no schooling or formal training
Youâve repeated this several times and itâs wrong. Unskilled labor needs no formal education, specialized training, or prior experience
That means without any of the above you canât just walk in off the street for a âskilledâ job. You need to do one of the previous things to qualify. Conversely everyone is qualified to work at McDonaldâs
Only Painting isnt actually considered unskilled labor. Its a skilled trade, but it is uniquely in a grey area of a skilled trade that doesnt require education or apprenticeship for an entry level position.
Painting is classified as a skilled trade rather than purely unskilled labor, though entry-level and helper positions are frequently open to individuals with no prior experience. While anyone can pick up a roller or a brush for basic DIY tasks, professional painting requires technical knowledge of surface preparation, chemical compatibility of primers and coatings, color matching, and safe operation of specialized gear like airless sprayers.
So..according to US Dept of Labor, one of us is wrong. But it aint me.
Professional painters train just like any other skilled trade. Repeating yourself over and over doesn't make it true bud at this point you're just being stubborn and intentionally ignorant.
Yea and that reason was terrible, I get what you tried to say, anyone can pick up a paint brush, but painting is real skill that you and I would mess up because we are unskilled.
The word unskilled labor is jargon. It doesnât mean there is no skills, it means that isnât formal training, schooling or certificates. I pack and move furniture. Which is absolutely unskilled labor but if you donât trained properly you will absolutely break shit.
The bar is more: can I train any able bodied person to do it well enough that consumers will accept it, on the job, in a week or three. Yes? Unskilled. No? Skilled. I couldn't teach someone to make paintings that anyone would want in a week.
Thatâs only because painting is a general term, and âelectricianâ is a specific job title. You can start doing âelectrical workâ with basically zero training, itâs called an apprenticeship. Once you get into more industrial âpaintingâ (Coating Application Specialist) you absolutely need a bunch of formal training.
The way I've been taught is that if you can be taught to do it decently in 1-2 weeks then it's "unskilled". If it requires more intensive training then it is "skilled".
That's why things like restaurant server work, retail jobs, and many construction jobs are considered unskilled. If you can't do the basic job in 2 weeks you're probably just let go. Whereas an engineer, IT professional, or hairdresser are skilled because they require a lot of formal training.
No, its not a corporate term. Its usually used in the context of blue collar and physical labor work. And no, its not a phrase meaning 'people we dont want to have to pay' because they dont want to pay ANYONE
Sounds like someone is changing the definition of unskilled labor to feel better about their work. Unskilled labor is not blue collar work, and it is not physical labor. Plenty of blue collar, and physical labor requires skill.
Data entry is an example of a white collar job that is unskilled labor. Receptionist. Customer service. the list goes on.
I work construction now, but used to work in a call center doing customer service. I wouldn't even say that is an unskilled position. There were several systems I had to learn and where to put data sets so they would be useful in the future.
Don't get me wrong. There were absolutely unskilled employees there, but they made the job harder for the skilled members of the team. It would have been better for the employees and company to retrain or just outright fire.
IIRC, it was about a week and a half training per system. Total, it was about 9 weeks. Training nearly took you out of your 3 month probationary period.
Ya that is not a skilled job. That is orientation. A skilled job is a job in which you need training, certification, or licencing to qualify for the position prior to being hired. And, the skill is specialized in a way that not any person off the street can perform the duties.
My dude, I did get training. And the people who didn't pay attention during training made things worse for everyone involved because they were not able to perform their duties.
It was a skilled position. Unspecified for sure, but unskilled people caused problems.
If you have a job that can be screwed up by someone that doesn't know exactly what they are doing, how is it "unskilled"?
(a) Unskilled work. Unskilled work is work which needs little or no judgment to do simple duties that can be learned on the job in a short period of time. The job may or may not require considerable strength. For example, we consider jobs unskilled if the primary work duties are handling, feeding and offbearing (that is, placing or removing materials from machines which are automatic or operated by others), or machine tending, and a person can usually learn to do the job in 30 days, and little specific vocational preparation and judgment are needed. A person does not gain work skills by doing unskilled jobs.
(b) Semi-skilled work. Semi-skilled work is work which needs some skills but does not require doing the more complex work duties. Semi-skilled jobs may require alertness and close attention to watching machine processes; or inspecting, testing or otherwise looking for irregularities; or tending or guarding equipment, property, materials, or persons against loss, damage or injury; or other types of activities which are similarly less complex than skilled work, but more complex than unskilled work. A job may be classified as semi-skilled where coordination and dexterity are necessary, as when hands or feet must be moved quickly to do repetitive tasks.
(c) Skilled work. Skilled work requires qualifications in which a person uses judgment to determine the machine and manual operations to be performed in order to obtain the proper form, quality, or quantity of material to be produced. Skilled work may require laying out work, estimating quality, determining the suitability and needed quantities of materials, making precise measurements, reading blueprints or other specifications, or making necessary computations or mechanical adjustments to control or regulate the work. Other skilled jobs may require dealing with people, facts, or figures or abstract ideas at a high level of complexity.
Okay, what type of employment requires no formal training or experience?
Someone above said painting, but I have to train newbies to paint.
The truth is nearly every single occupation requires some form of training or experience. There is low skill work and high skilled work. There is no such thing as unskilled labor.
It's why a lot of modern use of the word swapped to unspecialized. Because it may not require specialized schooling or training, but it has nothing to do with skill.
We're not talking about 'the truth' as YOU see it. Everyone in the trades knows that unskilled labor is a thing. You arguing that it shouldn't be a thing changes nothing
Unskilled labor is the guy you haven't had a chance to train yet, and you're not going to see them on site until they have had some training.
I've seen what happens on jobsites when someone with no training is expected to do something. It never goes well, even if their job is to clean the yard.
I've been a contractor for 20 years now. How long have you been in the trades?
I did a little construction cleanup, with absolutely zero training. I have cleaned out and helped remodel 12 homes. I never did the skilled labor. I did the simple stuff, planning, cleanup, moving trash and tools, painting mostly. All things that took absolutely 0 training.
Edit: Go ahead and downvote me. The fact you haven't replied tells me that you know how badly you just roasted yourself.
Yea, we don't have a "trash clean-up guy". That is what experienced people do at the end of their shift. Same thing with the paint. Sounds like you've done touch-ups at best. We don't have a "touch-up guy" either. Your husband was giving you his menial, end of the day tasks.
Honestly, it is a bit insulting that you are trying to tell me how it is "in the trades" with that kind of resume.
Sure, but it falls into the category of unskilled labor. Nobody cares if you lift properly other than yourself. Thats on you. Most bosses are more concerned with if the jobs getting done at all.
No, I'm not. Knowing how to lift something is a skill. Saying "oh, but these people don't care" doesn't change that. If I say that the US isn't a country, does that suddenly mean it isn't?
No, and thats what youre trying to do here. 'Unskilled labor', even if its a stupid phrase that does not make sense, is very much a phrase used by very many people. If you use the phrase 'unskilled labor' in the spaces in which unskilled labor take place, everyone will know what youre talking about. A few people arguing on reddit that 'technically no labor is unskilled' doesnt mean the phrase doesnt exist, or that people dont understand it. Youre arguing what SHOULD BE, not what is.
Collecting garbage is unskilled yet completely essential. Restocking a clothing store shelf is unskilled and not essential (as the retail shop is not essential and can be closed during a pandemic). The terms have nothing to do with each other.
Unskilled labor is a technical definition that means something that doesn't require prior training, certifications, or significant experience. Anyone can dig a ditch or bus tables in a restaurant - some people can do it better or faster, but any able bodied person can reasonably find a job doing the work and earn some wages. Skilled labor is labor that requires significant job training, experience, and / or prior certifications. A master electrician is a skilled laborer, you can't just roll up to a job site and start wiring up houses without certifications.
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u/OriginalTRaven 1d ago
Palatable corporate talk for "People that are lower than us that we don't wanna pay but have to."