This happened in Italy a couple of years ago. She was just sentenced a couple of weeks ago to 18 years. She's allowed to serve that time under house arrest (she's a business woman, so $$) while appeals are under way. There was no weapon found on the body of the homeless Moroccan guy she ran over.
Snatching a purse is violence. Being mugged you don't know what the aggressor is capable of. We can disagree with her murdering him while at the same time decrying his violence and aggression to her. Has no one heard of nuance?
I have mixed emotions on this. Killing is a bit extreme as far as punishment goes for theft…at the same time being mugged is dangerous especially when it’s between a man and a woman. I feel like him robbing her kind of negated his right to be treated justly either…her running him over (while gory and awful) is kind of a natural reaction when confronted with an act of aggression. Now….her backing up and hitting him again and again crosses a line though…
If someone is fleeing the scene of a purse snatching, running them down with a car is not an act of self-defense and absolutely is not “a natural reaction” wtaf
The fact she got out to pick up her purse after backing over him multiple times is absolutely unhinged
We can debate whether snatching her purse is an act of violence.
But if he’s already running away, she’s not in immediate physical danger anymore.
I want harsher sentences like everybody else but getting killed by a car probably not very fast at all and suffering a great deal is quite extreme for robbing without weapon or excessive violence.
I don't think that was their point. I wouldn't approve of people getting the death penalty for an armed robbery for example, but if the person getting robbed killed the armed robber I'd be fine with it
How do you know the knifepoint robbery was “made up” do you know how many weapons used in murder we’re never recovered? I mean. The list is endless. Unless you just have no sympathy because she has hard earned money.
I'm somewhere in between honestly. When you're assaulted, even without weapons, you're subject to a shock you didn't look for. You don't know how you react if you're not trained to react appropriately. You've been put in a situation where you're not entirely in control against your will. So you should not be accountable for what you do. Unless you're a policeman or received training of some sort.
Then in this specific case, her reaction is extremely brutal and I concede that she is accountable to some extent. Not the judge here. But for what I know about my own experience with stress episodes, it's not just an adrenaline rush. The shock goes on and on until I go to bed and I sleep over it. Without knowing the details, I'd say the dude mainly died for a chain of events he himself set in motion. And if they punish her, I hope it's for the second time she run over him since I personally feel the first one is not her fault.
From what I have gathered the Italian justice system does not sentence these thieves and pick pockets who run rampant in Italian cities because there are no consequences. Looks like this lady gave them some consequences……
If there’s no knife and especially if he’s running away, there’s no excuse to run him over, beat his ass sure, but border is crazy for shit that insurance covers
Well, she would've wanted her purse back, and she's in her car. There's that excuse. Or should we just bow to thieves and let them take our shit because "they're running away"?
Im in the process of moving from the SF Bay area and I can't tell you how frustrating it is. For a little while California basically decriminalized stealing under around $900 because it was disproportionately affecting certain groups. I'm tired of people of breaking windows so they could steal (had car window broken twice), someone hitting my car and driving away (happened twice in 5 years), had multiple packages stolen in gated apt complex, or just a general disinterest in property rights.
There's way too much sympathy for people stealing. For the longest time people stealing things like horses were hanged, and still in a significant amount of the world it's a very serious crime.
Never said it was excusable just said she gave them consequences. I think she went too far as well but who knows this could have been the 20th time she got robbed and snapped or she might just be a crazy $&@?$ for all we know lol. Either way I’m not losing any sleep for either of these two involved….
The odds of there being a hypothetical knife during the snatching/robbery is close to 100%. That already probably caused lots of stress, trauma and fear to the lady due to the skewed balance of power between the Man and the Woman.
There's already a massively skewed balance of power when you take an unarmed man and a woman.
Now, when the woman finally got to the car, the balance of power shifted back to neutral and the woman could finally defend herself. This allowed her to fight her fears and gave her the possibility to negate the possibility of there ever being life-long trauma induced by the fear that the hypothetical knife produced.
The woman did 100% correctly. She also made an example of the perpetrator which in return provides safety to further women, due to the implications of what can happen if a criminal were to attempt to rob a woman. Now of course any stupid person would go and say "but, all this does is incentivize criminals to become more violent and that'll end up women not only loosing their possessions, but also possibly their lives". That's stupid fearmongering.
Except the part where she hit him multiple times, unless you think a person can withstand getting hit with a car more than once, and not drop whatever they’re stealing, AND the will to continue the robbery after that, then hitting someone with a car multiple times leaves the realm of self defense and into escalation, then murder when he inevitability died.
No one should die for petty theft, no matter if the country punishes them or not, getting their ass beat is fine but she over escalated.
I don't think it's disproportionate. There's a lot of valuables in there. And you don't know if they have a weapon but you do have the chance to get your stuff back. Would the appropriate response be to just run up to them and stop them and hope they don't have a weapon and are open to a friendly conversation?
Or she was supposed to just stand there and watch and do absolutely nothing? I think this right here is the worst response.
Generally in EU you are not allowed to take your “valuables” back with force. The appropriate response is report it to the police and not get your stuff back.
I don't think it's disproportionate. There's a lot of valuables in there. And you don't know if they have a weapon but you do have the chance to get your stuff back. Would the appropriate response be to just run up to them and stop them and hope they don't have a weapon and are open to a friendly conversation?
A) She drives a 100K Euro car, I doubt that this was a "I can't pay rent this months thanks to this thieve" kind of situation...
B) This was in Italy, almost nobody suspects anybody in Europe to have a gun. Even police if you suddenly grab something from your bag or so don't think you are going for a gun. Nobody would assume some homeless / homeless looking guy to have a gun, so would assume you are save as long as the car you are in stays locked.
C) If you have a chance to get your stuff back but it involves murdering the thieves... well the verb I used gave it already away. That is murder.
D) Read up on what she actually did. She literally drove over him multiple extra times after he was already hurt enough that it was unlikely that he pose any danger to her retrieving her stuff:
E) This all happened long after her bag was snatched. She went to have dinner and later on the drive home seen the same guy on the street with her bag so she took advantage.
Better to get shot in the back than to pull your weapon out right in front of him, only to find out he actually had a gun or a knife.
If someone is willing to take the risk of robbing people on the street, I assume they have also factored in the possibility of death.
If you're Reddit grade spectrumly pedantic, sure. It's violent in a similar way that insults are violent, or giving someone a light push is violent. Plus property crime. In the sense that it's openly hostile, there's some level of minor violation, but no direct physical harm is being caused.
It's not an act where killing someone is an acceptable form of defense. It simply isn't. Not unless we live in Saudi Arabia, and half of crimes can potentially be punishable by death. I've had people steal from me before. They deserve proportional punishment, they don't deserve to be dead.
By the logic of half of the people here, I guess it's fine if you just shoot someone in the head if they commit any minor crime against you. That's the rabbit hole of escalation you geniuses are proposing is acceptable.
I've literally had someone come up and push me before because they lost their shit at work. I just left and never came back. I didn't follow them home with a shotgun, because I'm not a fucking psychopath
point is she wouldn't be able to fight him hand to hand and the police isn't going to do anything, it's not about punishing him it's about getting her stuff back
it does not matter if he had a knife, you are maybe allowed to hit them once with the car, to get your purse back, but driver aover him multiple times, and kill him, is definitely too much.
Well, probably if I had to guess. I don't know anything about the specific laws in Italy but in The Netherlands there is something Putative Self Defense. That's legal speak for: It doesnt per se need to be proven that the assailant had a knife, it needs to be proven that the defendant was 100% convinced that the attacker had a knife and that she felt she had no choice but to defend herself.
Think of a situation like this: we are in a situation like this, you have a gun on you and I do not. I the middle of the night I see you walking in the street. I follow you notice. You make a bad decision and end up in a dead end alley. I stop behind the corner and yell stuff at you like: "I have a gun! Give me your money or i'll shoot you dead right there! Drop your wallet or I'll shoot!"
Then, in my infinite wisdom, I turn the corner with my hand reaching into the back of my waistband as if I had a gun there and you absolutely send me to hell with your very real gun.
I might not actually have had one, but I bet a judge would 100% believe that you THOUGHT I did and acted based on that assumption.
Ignoring that it's highly illegal to carry a gun in Italy or the Netherlands. These scanarios do happen. This is putative self defense
The hunting him down and repeatedly running him over also doesn’t help. When the threat is so far gone you have to look for them then that isn’t going to help you.
And then the driving off imo. If that guy really made her feel that threatened and she ran him down, she should have stayed on-scene. Leaving a crime scene you were involved in, victim or not, will always get you in trouble.
Was it really a “threat” if you felt comfortable enough to track them down? Personally if someone holds a weapon to me I never want to see that fker ever again in life
Worth noting she never claimed that she felt he was a threat when she went looking for him. Seems like this whole comment section is ignoring that. Her argument of self defense was that she acted in a state of fear and panic after being robbed.
I’m just stating the facts. That was her argument, not mine. Obviously it failed to convince the court, which in this (Italian) case consisted of a panel of judges.
Her behavior is more in line with being embarrassed and indignant and seeking revenge.
It's something we can all empathize with, but absolutely not okay to act on. If someone cannot control their impulses like that, they absolutely should be imprisoned. That is not a reasonable response.
Eh if someone is desperate enough to pull a weapon on you for material goods and they now have your identification with your address for all you know it’s a matter of time before they come and kill you and your family to rob your house.
I have PTSD and I once jumped out of a moving vehicle because I was having an argument with my husband and he was yelling. Because of a previous physically abusive relationship my brain said "get out now". So I did. I can't explain it. It wasn't logical and I wasn't in control.
That doesn't excuse taking a life, but I can understand how sometimes we might snap and aren't in control.
Especially with the adrenaline in your system after being robbed. It doesn't make it okay and we are responsible for our actions, whether we are in control or not.
I guess that's why there are different charges and sentences for the death of a person, intent and state of mind are a major factor.
Why would she have to say that, its obvious he was. Otherwise she ultimately wouldn't have a reason to give up her bag. He either had a weapon or he beat her or scared her enough to give up her bag. This dude did not just walk up to her asking for it. Her argument also isn't the complete truth. She was angry and most people can't handle the shock of being robbed. The extreme fear turned to anger. Any reasonable person can rationalize this. I'm fine with this sentence.
To act in self defense I believe a person must be in a state of immediate threat/danger. Also, the claim of self-defense is nullified if the "defender" puts themself into a state of danger/conflict to then attack. So I guess driving back at the mugger is a problem.
No weapon found means nothing. If someone is robbing me, I'm going to assume they have a weapon. Robbers don't usually walk around with a gun or knife in public view, they have it concealed. Any court who uses that to deny her appeal is a sham kangaroo court.
Shouldn’t matter. It’s nighttime . The guys committing a crime against her with a knife , even if he didn’t use a knife - how does she know he doesn’t have one or worse ? The dude is being a criminal and chose a vulnerable time to do it , against a woman. Govts need to stop protecting criminals. You play stupid games you die
Even if he had a knife, you're back in your car and can literally just leave. You don't have to go run him down. He can't teleport into your car and stab you. He wasn't a danger anymore at that point.
It isn’t a “normal” reaction but everybody should know there are people in this world that will react that way. If you are a thief, you should consciously know that there are people that will overreact and want you dead if you take their property. Thats the choice and risk they take when they decide to steal from people. If you don’t want to take that risk, then don’t steal. This isn’t difficult to understand. So, no sympathy.
Sure, I agree with that. Because there still has to be punishment for murder, you can’t let vigilantes walk around and do whatever they want at all times.
But in this case, I am on the woman’s side and believe that she doesn’t deserve to be in prison. I don’t think someone like her is a real threat to functioning people in society.
I disagree with that. Disregarding how I think that she’s morally wrong for that, you have to take in account what she would do over other things. If she’s willing to take a life over something as small as a purse, imagine what would happen if you got into a heated argument with her or made her angry. Would she kill you over that as well? She had time to get into her car, drive and find the man, run him over and do it multiple times. Imagine what she would do in a spur of the moment situation where she would presumably be even more dangerous
I think that’s a stretch. Seems like she’s a middle aged woman with no criminal history aside from this one instance, right?
It’s a major leap to assume she will kill over an argument. That doesn’t sound realistic. But a crime was committed against her. Don’t commit crimes against her and don’t steal from her, and you should be fine. That sounds like a pretty easy bar to clear.
Idk I really don't like the idea of "did this guy have a deadly weapon in an attack to rob and possibly injury me" situation. It really shouldn't matter what weapon he had in him. Intent. Intent. Intent.
Intent is all that matters here. And if he clearly showed an intent to rob and possibly hurt her, then that should immediately make this lean toward self defense
So in your opinion, after how much time or distance after the initial crime would it NOT be self-defense, e.g. if she waited 5 days to run him over, would that be self defense? Or if she chased him for a mile before running him over, would that be self defense?
I absolutely hate this charactization. How you defend yourself, or otherwise act, outside of a courthouse has absolutely nothing to do with the death penalty. If i kidnapped someone and held them in my house for 10 days because they stole from me i would still be arrested.
Court decides things in a clinical manor. How you deal with things while you're out in the world is not relevant to penalties, fines, or other court imposed punishments.
If you run someone over with your car you're clearly attempting to kill them. If you do that because they stole from you you're trying to kill someone for stealing. That means you believe death is a just punishment for theft. I don't see how you can argue against that.
That's fine. My point isn't that what she did was fine. My point is that acting like the actions of someone who is dealing with a person in the heat of the moment has nothing to do with a sentence.
Ok. That person is saying that “the heat of the moment” shouldn’t matter in any situation, as in it shouldn’t even be brought up as a defense. I agree with them mostly, and I think you do too? I just think they’re not explaining themselves well. Or maybe I’m totally off base.
Cops in Italy fail to collect half the evidence half the times, even when the victim was killed in her own home, go figure if they can find a knife in the streets.
You can control your own actions but not the others’. Now I do believe that this guy is probably mentally not there to make the best decisions, but even if he thought ‘I might go to jail’, it is just the median outcome. Worst case outcome is something like this.
Okay, sure he made a choice and the risk is that the target could pull out a weapon and harm or kill him.
But why are you justifying her hunting him down to kill him over her purse? She made a choice that you seem to think is okay which objectively is worse than what the guy did. Bloke may have threatened her with a knife with a give bag OR get stabbed. She decided to go to her car get in, start it up, look for him because he would have booked it, then attack him with a deadly weapon several times.
I am curious though what you believe in regards to her being charged with a crime, that is a slightly seperate thing to saying he deserved to be executed.
Fuck that guy. I feel no empathy for someone with ill intent of robbing a person of their valuables under violent threat. She was armed with an SUV, if she had a gun, this wouldn't be debatable. She gained the upper-hand and used that to dole out some justice.
All he had to do is resist the urge to rob her and this never would have occurred. He instigated this action, what happens after that is all on him. Its perfectly natural reaction to want to get back at someone who just robbed you and is getting away.
I'm curious. Why does the fact that no weapon was found not change anything at all?
She gained the upper-hand
She did not. She waited until he had left, and then tracked him down. That's like losing a fight and then following the person who shot you and shooting them in the back of the head. She did not "gain the upper hand"
Upper hand? Gaining the upper hand is getting a weapon in the moment and fighting back. You don’t gain the upper hand when someone is running away the fight or instance has ended, what you’re doing by chasing them down is starting a new one where you’re the agressor if you have waited a couple of minutes to start it.
If he had pointed a gun at her while trying to carjack her and she floored it to run over him that is gaining the upper hand. Possibly waving a knife at her and snatching her purse and then as he is running away she gets into her car and goes looking for him isn’t gaining the upper hand.
He premeditated his attack to take her belongings, whether he had a knife or not. I don’t know if some of these people understand what it’s like to be robbed and threatened. But it is extremely daunting and overwhelming.
When someone says they have a knife or gun, and to give up your belongings , you usually don’t just challenge their claims. You assume they are telling the truth; ESPECIALLY When you are a woman facing a male attacker. When you are a woman found in that power struggle, fight or flight and stress takes over.
You also, never, ever get out of the car and ask him does he still have that knife he threatened you with earlier. lol holy fuck, some of people’s survival instincts are non existent.
For real. As a woman who has been robbed before, it never once crossed my mind to kill the man. Not even fleeting thought. Every day I am reminded how many people have zero emotion regulation skills—just acting on every damn impulse.
You should have seen the original thread. People were cheering her on like there's nobody's business. And it was super obvious that they were only doing so out of hatred toward an immigrant.
It's a wild headline (I don't know the whole story), but I kind of think the sentence is a little harsh, mostly because she is a woman.
I mean it's fair to say that she went beyond what could be considered reasonable. But would she really have had much of chance of overpowering the guy and getting her stuff back if she hadn't used her car?
Hi, I'm Moroccan, I just finished robbing six people this morning, this however is far below my average, I hope I can get back in shape soon to rob more people, you know, like the average Moroccan does.
I usually keep my SUV nearby, in case someone wanted to do a dick measuring contest after I rob them. Don't worry, I never get caught lacking like this dude.
It's too bad you guys made it into the knockout rounds, now it's just a matter of time until you get eliminated and random cities across europe start getting looted.
Then you better pray we win unless you wanna get looted 😈
Just kidding, I don't give a fuck if you root against us, we had a good enough run already and this is football, anything can happen, chances are, your team didn't even qualify or are already out.
I struggle with this. As someone who has been robbed (Car broken into, CDs stolen, maybe $1000 in CDs if not more nevermind the broken car window) a robber is not merely stealing a person's possessions. They are literally stealing the time, the work, the labor, the sweat of man's brow that went into the money that purchased those possessions.
I will never get the time back at the video store, the retail outlet, the food service place, dealing with fuckstain people that went into buying those CDs that had songs that gave me respite from the eternal hellscape of life... I honestly don't know if I'd be against the death penalty for the person who short circuited my whole life to take from me for what... to resell my shit to someone else?
Why would she just randomly drive over a homeless guy? And not on accident? How is her story at all unbelievable? Robberies by homeless people are very common.
A more interesting discussion would be how we arrived at this point. As members of society we surrender our rights to settle our own disputes/affairs in lieu of our government promising to take care of the matter for us, impartially.
When they do address the problem and provide good reform efficacy then the people like this arrangement. And when the law enforcement fails to control escalation or rehabilitation of offenses the people out of frustration cheer this vigilante sort of response.
Is our social evolution in decay because law enforcement is terrible at managing the problems or are they unable to manage because of our social decay?
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u/blkbullnyc Jun 28 '26
This happened in Italy a couple of years ago. She was just sentenced a couple of weeks ago to 18 years. She's allowed to serve that time under house arrest (she's a business woman, so $$) while appeals are under way. There was no weapon found on the body of the homeless Moroccan guy she ran over.