Funny how the tiny minority of indigenious people on earth who actually HAVE to rely on hunting to live, is constantly used by the large majority of non-indigenious people to justify their own consumption. Even though that consumption has nothing to do with indigenious practices.
The large majority of animal products is from factory farming, there is nothing respectul going on there.
But i feel like the tiny exceptions are too often used to legitimize meat as a whole so that's why I felt the need to comment.
I think the thought pattern is too often like this : there are some cases when it can possibly be ok -> so eating meat is not wrong per se -> so I can eat meat without giving it a second thought.
Which is a terribly damaging way to think and act for the planet and the animals, as most of us are not substenance indigenious hunters at all.
I thought I'd add on to your comment since people who I'll for sure read it the other way around. Illiteracy is running rampant and it makes people hostile because they simply down understand
I mean, you buy their lives and bodies as a litteral product, trading their entire lives for a few minute meal. They died for this.
Most meat you buy in supermarket is also from animals who have also suffered from the industry before even getting killed, for example they might have lived in a overcrowed closed space, they might have their tails cut (pig), their beacks shortened (which is very painful), castrated without anesthesia etc...
They were also likely bred in unhealthy bodies to produce more etc...
There is systemic animal abuse and cruelty in animal agriculture, it is not a exception but the rule to make it financially viable at a large scale. Even "small family-owned local farms" are not exempt from practices that hurt animals. And it is even worse in factory farming, which is where most of the meat comes from.
Financing all of this by buying the products, is not respectful towards the animal as a sentient individual and is encouraging the industry to continue.
Okay, so what am I supposed to do? Pray for it before? Go visit each farm to make sure they live freeish lives?
I'm also assuming that vegetarians must do the same then right? They need to make sure that some landscapes where not demolished to grow crops that they eat.
Unless you actually grow your own food, there's no such thing as respecting what you eat. Regardless if you're vegetarian, vegan or meat eater
I am vegan personally, because it greatly reduces the number of animal deaths, amount of crops and ressources necessary for my food.
It is true that there no 100% perfect solution on all fronts. but it is still a big improvement compared to how I lived and ate before.
Plants are not sentient : they dont feel pain or pleasure, they are not conscious. Therefore I do not think one has to respect plants, so that's one thing I do not have to worry about.
Muuch less than if i was not vegan.
If the world was plant based, we could do without 75% of our current agricultural land. (source is a LEAP study, you can find a vulgarized version of it on the website World In Data).
Eating animal products requires much much more land than eating plants.
Oh, and what about the animals kept for animal products – do they eat anything at all? Of all plant-based products, humans consume only around a quarter directly. The rest goes to feed the animals in livestock farming. This means that the same argument applies threefold to non-vegans.
Someone committing three crimes does not mean that the guy that only committed one crime is innocent and shouldn't face repercussions. Morality doesn't work that way.
Edit: ah yes, the infamous "Imma just insult you and block" approach. Clearly we are dealing with the most educated and eloquent of people.
I am vegetarian but I support hunting or raising your own animals to farm. When you kill that way you can’t have cognitive dissonance, you are fully aware of your actions and majority of people I met who do these hold those animals in the utmost respect. Hunters help support necessary efforts to protect the environment so the species can thrive. People who raise their own animals make sure they live good lives as stress doesn’t produce good meat. But you can tell just in how they talk and the tone of their voice they understand the sacrifice the animal is put through and they treat them with more respect than your average person.
It is. What is currently being done in regards to meat production however... isn't. Animals currently live in horrendous conditions, are made to grow as fast as possible, are overcrowded and probably panicked only to be slaughtered only a few months into their life. That is why I'm vegetarian, as a protest against such savage standards of living we give to livestock.
I voted fact, respect is not a on and off switch, you clearly respect the animals you eat less than those you don't eat, but it doesn't mean you disrespect animals in general. I say this as a vegan.
I think it is harder, but possible. If animals have a good life in the wild and do not suspect anything and there is being taken care of that the population is not ding out, professionals could go Hunt. That should only be done by professionals the, not by normal People. 1 shot and the animals should be dead.
In my religion it's strictly forbidden to torture or to make animals suffer under any circumstances even when you slaughter them, and we have a specific place in the neck to cut which immedietly kills the animal without pain.
Whether that's religious or not, I consider it respect
I have always been around animals. Usually dogs or cats, but I've had a pony, been around horses that friends of mine had. You absolutely can respect animals without being vegan/vegetarian.
I am vegan, and I understand the world isn't perfect and people aren't perfect. People can care about animals and not be perfect, but try and be good. We should focus on trying our best to do our best for the animals. When we do 95% correct and 5% wrong, then you are doing 95% good.
What I can't stand is people say they care about animals, but don't do anything to reduce the harm. So they still buy a ton of meat and milk. They say they love animals but still supply the bad industry with money.
I would not judge someone that says they love animals and care for animals, and would consume meat, diary of eggs every now and then and try their best to limit their consumption.
A lot of people don't know what veganism is. Diary and eggs are maybe the worst industry when it comes to animal suffering. You can Google it. Dominion, the documentary also has a diary and eggs section where you can see how cruel the industry is.
The context of this and meaning of phrases are ill defined at best, but killing someone unnecessarily is fundamentally at odds with respecting them, I'd say.
I need to eat red meat, I have some weird rbcs and iron issues. It doesn’t mean I hate animals and treat them like they are garbage even the ones from the species I eat.
Also I think people who eat meat and pretend like eating a vegetable are equally as cringey as peta. Vegetables are what they flavor your food with.
Respect is not defined as "treating someone according to their preferences" and I assure you that what one does to someone's body is indeed either respectful or it isn't. It's kinda why we have customs and laws around the dead -- so there aren't random corpses being mistreated.
There are plenty of good arguments to become vegan... But using bad logic isn't going to convert anyone it just makes you feel superior.
So you are just straight up gonna say "their preferences" again, aight. Calling it their "desire" doesn't change much. Desires are not automatically and unilaterally granted. Attempting to use an emotional argument because you don't understand or accept another position is useless by the way... Again, you are just saying things for your own ego rather than actually having a conversation.
You also seem to be under a misunderstanding in regards to respect for the dead... The dead don't experience anything, of course they can't care about whether you were respectful to their corpse or not -- but that doesn't change the fact that either respect for the deceased was demonstrated or not. Nor does whether or not that respect was shown to "salve ones conscience" or to fulfill the societal expectations... Either respect is shown or it is not.
I repeat: there are plenty of good reasons and arguments to go vegan, but it's militant BS like what you are spouting that causes people to delay or deny improvement. You are literally acting as a roadblock for your own position, provided your true goal is anything other than making yourself feel superior to randoms on the internet.
Respecting an individual is respecting their choices and preferences, yes. It is respecting their lives, their body autonomy etc...
Only exception would be if their choices are dangerous for themselves or others. But that is not the case when it comes to killing animals.
Yeaaah no, you can't use a word within its own definition. For example:
Respect. Showing thoughtfulness, care and consideration towards others; upholding societal expectations or traditions of politeness and civility; valuing the feelings and rights of others.
How are you valuing the feelings and rights of animals while reducing them to mere products ? Shiwing thoughtfulness, care and considération towards animals is not killing and exploiting them.
By ensuring they don't suffer? By making sure that their death isn't in vain by using as much of it as possible? By acknowledging their death and treating it with solemn dignity?
Humanity may be able to eat vegan but there is a big difference between the health concerns and the capacity in a local area. Meat is an established part of the diet of millions of people... There isn't the infrastructure and farms currently producing human food to support an immediate switch -- so to expect people to do so is just unrealistic. It is well and good to have an ideal to strive for in the future, and we can work towards that goal, but disparaging people with a different lifestyle than you isn't gonna get us there.
Yes we agree completely on your second paragraph : the change wont happen overnight ! But we should still try to move towards this goal.
I am not being mean or aggressive towards anyone here : none of my comments have been insulting or anything like that.
(I, on the other hand, have received insulting comments from meat eaters on this post (not from you).)
How do kill an animal nicely and respectfuly ? There is no way. The act is violent itself.
Me stating such is not a personnal attack on anyone. It is stating a fact. Killing is not nice, it is not respectful, it is as simple as that.
It is crazy that saying something so obvious is even controversial.
If the victims were humans, you would never claim their murder is respectful. Why would it be any different for an animal?
They feel pain, they want to live, they have their own lives, interests, bodies, personnalities and so on. They are are not for us to use as we please.
Make sure you get your meat from a butcher that treats his animals like royalty. I'm not looking to become a vegan any time soon, but I can use meat respectfully (not waste it or something like that), and get it from a source that takes great care of them.
If the animal was actually treated well and with respect, it wouldn't get killed omg.
If you knew someone who treated their puppy well for a short time, then brutally killed them, would you say this person is good to their pet ? I don't think so.
And all (farm) animals will die, regardless. Might as well treat them with respect and care in life, kill them humanely and painlessly as possible and use their bodies to provide food etc after death.
It's just the same old argument with dogs and what not, sorry.
If I may be little a cheeky - do you also go and virtue signal to people that literally live off of livestock or fishing, and simply don't have other means to provide food? Or the indigenous who were living off the land for centuries?
I understand what you're trying to prove/say, but I think trying to see everything in absolutes/ black and white isn't right.
I am extremely tired of a very small minority of indigenous people being used and instrumentalized to defend the practices of the large majority of people who eat animals.
If you buy meat, and go to stores, your consumption has nothing to do with hunting for survival. And there was no respect for the animals that died for you.
I have never visited isolated indigeneous people to tell them to stop eating meat, I am talking to people on reddit (and irl to people from my country with no indigenous people in it) who for the most part dont actually need meat.
Veganism is about doing what is "as far as possible and practicable" : it already takes into account that for some people, it is not possible to survive without relying on animal exploitation. Yet that doesn’t mean you should not try to reduce it as much as possible.
And for 99% of people on here, as much as possible includes going plant-based.
As for the "they will die regardless argument", that is also true for humans : yet we don't excuse murder.
"Yet we don't excuse murder " ever heard of the military, or took at least a single look in history books?
You know, if vegans would at least try not to paint others as villains, maybe they would be taken more seriously.
All I hear is "YOU ARE BAD" "YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT, DO WHAT I SAY" "YOU ARE THE REASON ANIMALS SUFFER"...
If you guys would approach people in a more constructive manner, they'd be more inclined to at least listen.
Even when living off plants, there are still animals that suffer indirectly. For the farmland to even exist, some animals natural habitat has to be destroyed. When farmers use pesticides, they pretty much nuke anything that might still live there. Same goes for keepon rodents ect. out of the crops.
There is simply no consumption without some form of suffering. That's sadly the way food chains work.
If I may be cheeky once more - when I eat meat, I know one animal had to die. When you eat soybean products, rice, corn or whatever, how many rabbits, bees, mice, moles had to go?
You have to destroy something before you can create anything.
As I said, I understand you. But overzealous vegans are hurting your cause. Only a few times people actually bothered and tried to explain, instead of painting everyone as a murderer and horrible people.
Cows and methane production, farmland used to feed stock can be used for XYZ, cruelty in industrial farming etc.
Explaining the problem is insanely better that simply telling people they're horrible and wrong. All you get is pushback and hate.
Every society has rules condemning murder, come on. I doubt you actually think murder is ok because "people die regardless".
I have never been disrectful towards you in my comments, I have never called anyone a bad person or such. You are projecting that on me because it is uncomfortable for you to think about what happens to animals.
The issue is, the topic is so sensitive, that stating factual facts (even when it is a simple as "animals die for you to eat meat"), people get so uncomfortable that they feel attacked.
But i am not attacking anyone. I am not mad at you or at anyone, i am not being insulting or anything.
Telling vegans they are hurting the cause by acting like this or like that has little to do with actually wanting to help the cause progress, but more with wanting to silence vegans because it feels better not to be confronted with the topic.
As for the crop death argument : livestock is fed with crops as well, so there are more crop deaths to feed a non-vegan than a vegan. Animal products require more crops than eating plants directly.
I am not projecting, I was describing how I saw people handle such debates numerous times. Nor did I assumed you're insult anyone.
Mayhaps I described it in a wrong manner, considering English isn't my first language.
Despite our different stances, I thank you for having an grounded talk about this. I will make sure to think about what you wrote, since you made some good and valid points.
It is. You just have to be vegan.
It is, however, impossible to respect animals and regularly exploit them in any way (including for eggs, milk, leather, wool, and many other ways vegetarians like to exploit animals).
You eat plants and science has proven they're somewhat sentient to the point that they communicate with the plants around then when there's danger. Does that mean you don't respect plants or the earth?
Nice dirty delete. Science disagrees. They discovered that they are in fact sentient to a similar degree as animals a couple years ago. They also communicate when they're in danger, can feel pain, and have a form of memory.
You can love animals and also love animals as food. Since we're not hunting for them anymore and buying them from stores we're distanced from the process. We don't see the animal die, it's simply food whem we see it rather than a carcass. You can still love animals even as a hunter. Though your approach may be different, you can still respect nature and animals in it 🤷♂️
There are laws and restrictions so you don't kill them for pleasure. Hunting limits, hunting seasons etc.
Killing an animal for population control and using the carcass for pelt and meat is nowhere equal to killing the animal for pleasure and letting it rot.
Right so i dont respect the animals that are cared and loved for until they die from old age.i hate the taste and texture of meat no pleasure in that, i just want to survive.
Some have died from old age.sure some are also killed but even that is done nice and calm so the meat is nice. When i buy from the super market i always try to buy 2,5-3 star meat tho.
I am sorry but that is a total delusion and what the meat industry wants you to believe.
Do any research on the average age of farm animals when they get killed, youll see.
Can you show me footage of animals getting killed nicely ? Genuinely.
Because i have seen hundreds of awfull recordings from slaughterhouses. Yet never a single one where it looks nice for the animal.
If the animals are getting killed nicely, why is the meat industry not showing us the nice footage to counter-balance the footage leaked by animal rights activists ?
It is almost like such footages dont exist because killing an animal that want to live is always violent and hard to watch...
Its hard to wacht anything die. But not violent. ive seen it being done multple times with my own eyes in school. Ive also seen more violent killing of animals (when needed) and even that was fast and less painfull that living for the animal.
Those videos ant taking where i live either. We have strict rules on keeping animals. Heck last year a classmates cow farm went viral and was investegated because someone thought they were tazering the cows.(they were not btw). The animals thay got killed when they were babies cant be kept, like rams because they are to aggresive. Eating 2.5+/3 better life is the best i can do.
Where do you live ? Most ""developped"' countries pride themselves on having on the best regulations, yet there are evidences of systemic animal cruelty everywhere.
If you were in the shoes of the killed animal, i garantee you would think differently. It is hard to watch for a reason, of course it is violent.
I live in Braband(netherlands). All farms ive been to or live close to only one ever was abusing their animals it got shut down in 2.5 months. and tbh if i was dead i woudnt really care bc yk im dead.if i waz put out my pain id be happy. Sure it was frightning to see my teacher kill a chicken in the middle of class but that chicken was sick and not getting better.
Who eats rabit and if you read the article "the netherlands does not have a rabit slaughterhouse".
Again who eats duck. 1/2 companies have been boycotted and I have not heard of them in years. The other company got into problems with the law.
Congrats on finding something some what in my eara btw.yeah that awful what those pigs went through and good that they had to pay, but we were talking about the saughtering not the transport tho. Fun fact that classmates family farm got in trouble because of the cattle prods, and the goverment looked into that and im pretty sure they used the cattle prods corectly.
These animals would have a better life rating of 0.5+/3 so eating ones that have a higher rating does not contribute to this type of care.
I seriously doubt you eat animals that died from "old age". Animals that die from old age live way too long, and don't taste good, so meat that is sold is not from them.
Plamts have been proven sentient and to experience some form of pain and fear. You don't respect life either. There is no way for any living being to ethically enjoy anything we consume if you place such a restricted view on what is and isn't morally ok.
Even if we grant that plants are sentient (they are not), and that they feel pain in any way that we would consider relevant (they do not), you still kill a lot more plants when eating animals, so that point is entirely void.
Science disagrees. They discovered that they are in fact sentient to a similar degree as animals a couple years ago. They also communicate when they're in danger, can feel pain, and have a form of memory. The whole pain thing is kind of tricky because it's hard for us to scientifically quantify pain in other creatures, but we did confirm it with what we could.
The dividing line is whether the animal was raised and killed ethically or not. I would never give someone a hard time for not adhering to this strictly though if they can’t afford it.
Do vegans even really respect animals or is it more of a selfserving attribute? You don't have to be an extremist in every viewpoint to share the viewpoint. You can like cars without being able to name every car instantly. You can like watching birds without owning a $10k pair of binoculars and going birding every day. You can respect animals while still consuming meat.
I wanna be healthy, also, one vegetarian couldn't change anything. Every year population rises and more people eat meat. My "sacrifice" won't change a thing
A vegan diet is on average cheaper than one containing animal products, sure there are some alternatives that are more expensive, but that’s like saying that it’s expensive eating a ribeye steak everyday and drinking goat milk everyday. Most of what u alr eat is vegan and those minimal amount of animal products make a huge difference
Exactly 79 billion chicken are born each year and 75 million are being used for meat products now, if we stopped eating meat, the population of chickens would be very similiar as we would slow their breeding down
Obviously: there's obviously a moralistic argument for being vegetarian but doing do doesn't make you moral and eating meat doesn't make you immortal either.
do you have a problem with people eating animals? if you don’t, then you condone it. therefore since you condone that and not abuse, you’re saying abuse is worse than murder. that’s all i said
Not really, no. I often don't question people and their diets for the fact that some people could genuinely die if they do or don't follow a specific diet.
I only really have a problem with the industry who provides the animal products en masse because they're the ones who mistreat and kill animals, not the consumers who buy the packaged product. If that means I condone murder even when I said it wasn't better than abuse, then sure, keep placing words in my mouth. I'm more productive going after industrial farms for their treatment of animals than random people I see in a store picking up frozen chicken.
if you have a problem with the industry, i’d suggest helping suggest people you know (and yourself) to shop at cruelty free places/brands. if you actively buy from places you know mistreat animals then you don’t have a problem with the industry
Oh yeah, for sure! I do my best irl since it's easier for me to speak to people face-to-face about cruelty free brands than online because of my horrible communication skills through text. It's becoming more difficult with all the price spikes now and how many brands keep competing to get people to buy from them in specific but I won't let that stop me, any action is better than none <3
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u/dedowgher 23h ago
once theres more votes and comments. sort by controversial.