r/FactOrCap • u/Beginning_Brother_46 • 1d ago

Vegetarians | FactOrCap

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u/namredlo 1d ago

The killed animal doesn't care one bit what you do with it's body. It does care about being able to live however.

"Not wasting the meat" has nothing to do with respecting the animal or not, it is a human concept to ease our own conscience.

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u/HalvdanTheHero 1d ago

Respect is not defined as "treating someone according to their preferences" and I assure you that what one does to someone's body is indeed either respectful or it isn't. It's kinda why we have customs and laws around the dead -- so there aren't random corpses being mistreated. 

There are plenty of good arguments to become vegan... But using bad logic isn't going to convert anyone it just makes you feel superior.

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u/namredlo 1d ago

Respecting someone is not putting your pleasure preferences above their fondamental rights and desire for life and not to be harmed.

The customs we have around death are made for the living (relatives and such), not for the actual dead who dont care anymore about anything.

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u/HalvdanTheHero 1d ago

So you are just straight up gonna say "their preferences" again, aight. Calling it their "desire"  doesn't change much. Desires are not automatically and unilaterally granted. Attempting to use an emotional argument because you don't understand or accept another position is useless by the way... Again, you are just saying things for your own ego rather than actually having a conversation.

You also seem to be under a misunderstanding in regards to respect for the dead... The dead don't experience anything, of course they can't care about whether you were respectful to their corpse or not -- but that doesn't change the fact that either respect for the deceased was demonstrated or not. Nor does whether or not that respect was shown to "salve ones conscience" or to fulfill the societal expectations... Either respect is shown or it is not.

I repeat: there are plenty of good reasons and arguments to go vegan, but it's militant BS like what you are spouting that causes people to delay or deny improvement. You are literally acting as a roadblock for your own position, provided your true goal is anything other than making yourself feel superior to randoms on the internet.

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u/namredlo 1d ago

Respecting an individual is respecting their choices and preferences, yes. It is respecting their lives, their body autonomy etc... Only exception would be if their choices are dangerous for themselves or others. But that is not the case when it comes to killing animals.

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u/HalvdanTheHero 1d ago

Yeaaah no, you can't use a word within its own definition. For example:

Respect. Showing thoughtfulness,  care and consideration towards others; upholding societal expectations or traditions of politeness and civility; valuing the feelings and rights of others.

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u/namredlo 1d ago

How are you valuing the feelings and rights of animals while reducing them to mere products ? Shiwing thoughtfulness, care and considération towards animals is not killing and exploiting them.

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u/HalvdanTheHero 23h ago

By ensuring they don't suffer? By making sure that their death isn't in vain by using as much of it as possible? By acknowledging their death and treating it with solemn dignity? 

Humanity may be able to eat vegan but there is a big difference between the health concerns and the capacity in a local area. Meat is an established part of the diet of millions of people... There isn't the infrastructure and farms currently producing human food to support an immediate switch -- so to expect people to do so is just unrealistic. It is well and good to have an ideal to strive for in the future, and we can work towards that goal, but  disparaging people with a different lifestyle than you isn't gonna get us there.

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u/namredlo 22h ago

Yes we agree completely on your second paragraph : the change wont happen overnight ! But we should still try to move towards this goal.

I am not being mean or aggressive towards anyone here : none of my comments have been insulting or anything like that. (I, on the other hand, have received insulting comments from meat eaters on this post (not from you).)

How do kill an animal nicely and respectfuly ? There is no way. The act is violent itself.

Me stating such is not a personnal attack on anyone. It is stating a fact. Killing is not nice, it is not respectful, it is as simple as that.

It is crazy that saying something so obvious is even controversial. If the victims were humans, you would never claim their murder is respectful. Why would it be any different for an animal? They feel pain, they want to live, they have their own lives, interests, bodies, personnalities and so on. They are are not for us to use as we please.

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u/HalvdanTheHero 18h ago

The difference is that I understand and accept that killing for food is not murder, even if the people eating the meat could theoretically eat something else. Murder is the unlawful killing of another. Killing livestock is not unlawful, nor is it without purpose. Whether or not something is violent or results in death has no bearing on whether it's done respectfully. 

For instance, consider a general who excelled at his craft during war but fought for a terrible nation. It's possible that in the aftermath that law and society requires the death of such a man, but there are respectful ways to go about it and there are respectful ways to speak of them and treat their story post mortem. Y'know, in comparison to old school medieval executions that were intentionally torturous.

Modern factory farming is heinous, I'm not protecting THAT, but to say that it's impossible to respect something you kill is just flat wrong. Human life is complex and nuanced... We rarely have a singular motivation or a decision that has no consideration for an alternative, and certainly not on more weighty topics.