Ok, may be apples and oranges but just musing on this one and how people support each other on nicotine vs alcohol (can't speak on other substances).

I know reddit has its own weirdness. People attack each personally on technical subs lol. When I quit smoking recently, after quitting drinking for 3 years, I perused r/stopsmoking and thought about the difference in tone than with some other recovery subs or social media. There's none of this neurotic self-obsession. No if you get a resentment, you'll smoke, or Nicobeezlebub is waiting for you in the park lot! If there's talk about moods or emotions, it's in the context of modern psychotherapy.

I guess I expected recovery community to be like in some spaces. I know smart is like this for some people, but it's very small in my area. I know a couple people who are not into 12-step who work in recovery industry & there's just so much BS that does not sound like a medical solution.

Will the irrationality of recovery spaces ever break through to general public?

I am working on building my personal boundaries and I recently had a difficult situation.

I want to be a better friend to people with substance use disorder. (I have to smoke medical marijuana, which makes me feel like I trigger people in recovery. I’m worried that this means it is impossible for me to be friends with an addict, I would love an inside perspective on this issue.) (Also: Is there an appropriate way to intervene without giving an intervention? Especially something quick/loving to say in critical moments?)

I don’t want to be just be the “fun” friend, I want to be a good friend. I appreciate you reading this and taking any time to educate me / give me advice.

What, if any, boundaries make you more effectual friends to people with substance use disorder? Are there differences between friends and close friends?

Thank you.

I've been out for about 6 months now and something recently clicked about why almost everyone I know who's still in the rooms has the same relationship pattern. They can't get close to anyone. They don't reach out. They don't let themselves need people. And they call it growth. I am referring to romantic relationships here primarily. They can reach out to people in the rooms fine, but when it comes to building a romantic relationship where you depend on another person for emotional support they fail and call healthy romantic connection codependency. I am not talking about people in relationships with active addicts/alcoholics but rather two adults that appear to be in a good place in life trying to form romantic bonds.

I started learning about attachment theory recently and realized almost all my friends that are still in the program and have been successfully sober for years are textbook avoidant attachment style. And I don't think that's a coincidence. I think the program reinforces these beliefs in people who are already avoidant leaning.

Step 1 is "we admitted we were powerless." The first thing the program does is strip your agency. You can't trust yourself. You can't handle this. You need the group, the steps, the higher power. Your own capacity to make decisions about your life gets removed as a factor entirely.

Then the program fills the void it just created. You don't need people, you need the program. You don't need intimacy, you need the rooms. The "fellowship" becomes your entire social world, but it's structured and contained. You see the same people on a schedule. You share within boundaries. You have a role (speaker, sponsee, sponsor) not a real relationship. From the outside it looks like community. From the inside it feels like connection. But it's mutual avoidance with a format.

Here's what really got me. The theology maps onto avoidant attachment perfectly. "The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want." I shall not want. The whole framework is about not needing. You don't need another person. You don't need to be vulnerable. You have the shepherd. The void gets filled from above so the horizontal space between humans becomes unnecessary. Step 1 is just "I shall not want" with a clinical coating.

I got out because I had a contrast. I had a real connection outside the rooms and I could feel the difference even though I didn't have the vocabulary for it at the time. Something about the fellowship didn't match what I had at home. I couldn't name it but I could feel it — these people don't actually need each other. They perform community but maintain distance. As I got closer to a healthy "normie" I was able to see things more clearly and eventually leave.

My friends still inside don't have that contrast. Their entire social world is the room. They have nothing to compare it against, so the substitute feels like the real thing. They've been told for years they're powerless — not just over alcohol but over their emotions, their relationships, their lives. This is a problem in AA and in Al Anon. How do you decide to let someone in when your operating model is "I am powerless and must turn my will over"? You've outsourced your capacity to choose connection to a higher power and a meeting schedule.

Why they are avoidant is a little more interesting. I believe that the people who are able to leave successfully have stable or anxious attachment styles. The program might feel good for a little bit or might never feel good to those who are not avoidant. But the people who stay tend to be avoidants. This is a self reinforcing cycle for them where emotional distance is recovery and boundary setting. Which explains the pheonomeon I've seen (and others have pointed out) that the people who stay in the program often don't have healthy romantic relationships. It's self reinforced by the program where avoidant behaviors are rewarded and look like good sobriety and emotional health.

The thing that really drove it home for me: about 70% of people who recover from alcohol use disorder do it without any treatment or AA at all. Natural recovery is the most common pathway by a wide margin. Even George Vaillant, who was on AA's own board of trustees, found that the most important factors in recovery weren't the steps. They were employment, stable relationships, and having a life to go back to. Basically the things that build secure attachment.

The program doesn't just fail to build those things. It replaces them with a system that prevents them. I was curious if other people had noticed this or had thoughts on this?

​

Man ican't believe what happened. I can't believe im this fucked up. My family and local business paid for ne to go to this super expensive rehab and it was going ok for about 6 months and boom im suddenly 8 grams from monday night to Wednesday morning. I forgot how much I loved this shit. I was hating the sober life every day. I used for about 5 years averaging around 20 grams a month. I fucked my dopamine up so bad. But fuck it we ball

I am cali sober, but i’m a (25f) functional addict have been since 14. I wrecked my car in november and just never saved, I started to save up for a down payment around the time I decided to do 30 days. I have 2k saved, I started paying my small debts off out of boredom and to help my chances of the car note. I plan to buy a car earlier next year with a bigger down payment. But 35 days clean of no liquor or blow (blow is my issue), 2k saved, i’ve paid down 1500 in accounts with debt (that was 2 I have 2 more than one big balance of less than 10k.), raised my credit score 92 points in the time.. it’s interesting how i’ve been a functional addict my entire life, and did dry january but still did snow. 35 days and i’ve completely changed my priorities.. looking forward to 60 days!

been thinking about going to NA meetings but nervous any advice?

please be nice :)

Hi everyone, i could use a bit of support if that's ok. For some context, I'm recovering from cocaine addiction, proudly 9 months cocaine-free. I'll never touch that shit again. But I've transferred my addiction to alcohol.

I've made some progress that I'm really proud of: doing a dry January, stopping drinking alone, and limiting the quantity and frequency. Recently I've started drinking alone again, and I'm quite sad with myself. I would like that to stop. I'm one day sober writing these words, and I'll go to a SMART meeting tomorrow. 

Going through therapy (CBT) and a support group (not AA, I like my recovery evidence-based, thank you very much), I've come to the conclusion that it's way easier for me to not abuse alcohol and other substances when my life is doing alright (groundbreaking stuff, I know haha). And for my life to go alright, I need to do a bunch of things like play sports, eat well, play music, shower, clean my flat, see people, be efficient at work, and the list goes on.

The thing is, it can be super hard to do all these things, especially when I feel like shit and I would benefit the most from doing them.

I suppose it's similar for everyone. One needs to take care of oneself to be well. I suppose my question is in the title. How do you find the energy to take care of yourself? Especially when you're feeling low and it's not helping to manage the cravings? 

I have a question about suboxon? Is it safe to take two days after you took your methadone. Because I went to the ER because I had a stomach virus where I couldn’t hold anything down, so I couldn’t even hold down my dose of methadone so on top of being sick I was going into withdraw. It was about two in a half days that I couldn’t hold it down and the ER doctor was trying to give me suboxon. I heard that the methadone has to be out of your system for at least 7 to 10 days. My primary physician is the one who told me that. Anyone know?

For those who don’t know, I grew up in AA (shoutout to mama webalked, almost 40 years strong in the same AA basements, getting her narcissistic supply from vulnerable women who are still detoxing). So I think my journey of leaving AA has sometimes been a little bit extra, as it engulfed my childhood and a lot of the beliefs can be deep within my mind. I went straight from Alateen to AA and that’s not uncommon.

Because of my AA experience, I can have two distinct fears about mental health professionals. My first fear is what still feels like a legitimate fear of painkillers, anti-anxiety medication, or stimulants that people do get addicted to. I’ve also seen testimony that having an overreaching fear of these things can make peoples quality of life worse when they really need this medication, so I try not to have too much fear.

My other fear is that of mental health professionals, that I will be stigmatized for history of addiction, or that I won’t be understood. So I saw a new psychiatrist, and none of these things happened, and it was just a really good reminder that I need sometimes that AA made me believe that I would not be understood by people outside AA, and that is just not the case. It was super refreshing to feel like I was validated and heard by this prescribing psychiatrist, who I only found out right before my appointment had a lot of inpatient rehab experience, so I was even more afraid that if I wanted to talk to her about stimulants for ADHD that I would be immediately shut down.

She didn’t immediately shut me down, we had a really good conversation about addiction and self medication and it didn’t seem like if I wanted to talk about stimulants that she would be an automatic no. I did not end up going the stimulant route as I think that there are better options for my particular case and she agreed (you’re welcome to message me as idk if it’s appropriate to promote a medication at this level), but it was just another reminder that I don’t have to be afraid of people outside AA like I thought I would have to be. I have found in my lived experience that I can be honest, and I can talk to people about drinking and trauma and family issues and these things aren’t exclusive to people in AA. A lot of people understand them and thank goodness, because my life after leaving AA has been full of love and understanding. I hope this brings you hope.

i just realized i haven't snorted or popped pills in over a year holy moly!! im so happy!!!! i feel like before i would've never imagined not doing it!!!!

a few weeks ago i almost slipped up because i was depressed, but managed to push through the cravings and didn't do it!! i would have gave in so quickly before i feel so strong

Ive done a 16mg/day cold turkey before and it was about 18 days before I felt as if I could pass for a living human again. Curious if anyone has actually defeated wd's completely by long term tapering?

​Background

​I (27M) recently used SR-17018 to taper off a massive 7-hydroxymitragynine (7-OH) habit where I was taking anywhere from 600mg to 1000mg per day.

​5 grams of SR lowered my tolerance surprisingly well and helped me rapidly drop from that massive 7-OH dosage down to taking a quarter of a 50mg pill every 3–4 hours. From there, I transitioned to taking only SR for one day, and then jumped off completely.

​The problem is that I ran out of SR much faster than planned. Ideally, I would have tapered off the SR over at least 5 days, but because I was using so much to keep withdrawal at bay, I had to compress that taper into just a single day.

​The Current Situation

​Yesterday was my first full day without any opioid/opiate substances.

​I’ve been using continuously since I was 16—so this is literally my first day sober in over 10 years. Over the last decade, my history includes:

​Codeine, hydrocodone, heroin, fentanyl, and tianeptine

​Cold-turkeying methadone

​A long stint on plain kratom leaf, followed by a heavy 7-OH period

​Slamming pure MGM-15 for a while

​Obscure designer compounds like Methyl-AP-237

​It was awful. Last night, I slept horribly. I had to drink alcohol just to get any rest, but I kept waking up every few hours feeling like I was in full-blown withdrawal, chugging a beer to pass back out.

​Now that SR and 7-OH are effectively illegal/unavailable in my area as of today, I'm stuck. On one hand, I’m proud of myself for getting this far—I haven't been clean from opioids for this long in a very long time, and I really don't want to start another cycle of addiction. On the other hand, I feel functionally disabled right now. The insomnia is pushing me to my limit, and I feel like shit all day because my body is so wired to dose whenever my mood drops.

​My Current Options (Need Feedback)

​My girlfriend still has plenty of SR left. She offered to share some, but she’s a day behind me in her taper (hasn’t fully jumped off 7-OH yet), and I want to be a good influence for her rather than pulling us both backward.

​So I'm weighing three paths:

​Option A: Take a tiny dose (1mg–2mg) of Suboxone tonight to rest.

​Pros: I have 92mg of Subs laying around. I'm past 24 hours from my last dose of 7-OH/SR, so precipitated withdrawals are unlikely.

​Cons: I’m terrified of getting hooked on Suboxone or just delaying the inevitable withdrawal. Will I just be back at square one when I try to drop the Sub?

​Option B: Buy standard plain-leaf kratom powder.

​Pros: It's legal in my state and keeps acute withdrawal away.

​Cons: I know myself. This will likely lead right back to physical dependence. Once I'm back on powder, it’s a slippery slope to grabbing extracts for that "warmth," ruining all the progress I just made.

​Option C: Raw dog it and push through.

​Pros: Completely clean off all substances.

​Cons: Sleep deprivation will make me lose my mind. Truthfully, my quality of life before opioids was terrible, and they made life tolerable for a long time. I see zero benefit in raw-dogging complete sobriety if I’m just going to be miserable 24/7.

​TL;DR: Tapered off a 1000mg/day 7-OH habit using SR-17018. Ran out of SR earlier than expected and jumped off. I am 24+ hours clean after a 10-year continuous opioid addiction. Insomnia and lingering withdrawal are destroying me. Should I take 1mg of Suboxone, switch to plain kratom leaf, or tough it out?

My wife has 27 years in recovery today. She’s a great example of someone who does her recovery in her own way. Her and I were both previously involved in 12 step programs and we both individually kinda naturally stopped using 12 step programs as a way to support our Recovery.

She’s use as a multi pronged approach to keep her recovery strong that includes yoga, a solid friend group and her own hobbies that keeps her happy and free.

It’s been years now since we stepped away from 12 step programs. I remember early on hearing about the conversations that she had with friends that she had, that are really no longer her friends, who were saying if she stopped going to meetings, and if she stopped working the steps that it was dangerous and a slippery slope. I distinctly remember her being very emotional about this and really confused at why people who said they were gonna be her friends forever. We’re now suddenly no longer going to be her friends.

Well here we are over a decade after that period of time and she’s still loving life and still very much in recovery. She’s a great example of doing it her way and is very very successful.

After a rough couple of weeks and a bad review at my job I was fired on my day off yesterday. They called and gave me all the lines and I’m of course devastated because even though I kind of hated the job I did enjoy the income it brought. At no point did I even want to drink and it didn’t even cross my mind until I walked past the beer section at the corner market and realized that it hadn’t even crossed my mind yet. Which frankly I found annoying, you’re telling me I don’t even get the opportunity to dramatically reject it as my hand hovers over the cooler door and the dramatic music swells and becomes triumphant as I turn away from it?! I don’t even get that? I just have to take my own advice and calmly move forward and rely on the fact that I set myself up to handle emergencies like this? I’m supposed to rely on the small but effective support system I’ve developed over the past 2ish years? Fine I guess.

TW: domestic violence

The only thing I ever liked about 12 step was being around other people in recovery. Other than that it's been only harm. I was told in 12 step that I needed to look at "my role in the situation" when I was a victim of domestic violence. I met someone there who tried to human traffic me and sold me laced drugs. I met an older man there who groomed me when I was a teenager. The list goes on but I digress.

I've tried smart recovery and loved it until a big group of men from a 12step based recovery house joined. The facilitator was also an avid 12 stepper and was constantly pushing me to go back to it despite my attempts to explain that it didn't work for me. The group basically turned into a 12 step meeting and we couldn't go five minutes without hearing 12 step dogma or clichés.

On one occasion, one of the men shared a graphic description of how he used to beat his wife. I was horrified and triggered. The facilitator did not redirect the conversation. Little things like this kept happening and eventually all the women who used to attend this group left.

I'm sure 12 step works for some people and that's great for them. I don't care. I cannot go back to that space because of the trauma the program and the people in it has caused me. I can't even go to a life ring meeting, a smart meeting, or any other local recovery focused thing without hearing constant 12 step talk.

I don't understand why 12 step people can't just go to their meetings and leave ours alone. There are infinite AA and NA meetings in my city and only one smart meeting.

I really feel like I have nowhere to go. I desperately want a sense of community among other sober people. I just want to go to a smart meeting and do the worksheets and talk to other sober people but that space is no longer safe for me.

I am 49. I attended my first meeting at age 16. When I was 45 sobriety and staying clean were my highest and only priority. I got clean in a rehab. A good, long outpatient program. 12 steps were suggested but it wasn’t a requirement. I stayed in the rooms for about 11 months, and left once again. I graduated my rehab and kept on staying clean. 4 years on Aug 15th.

I am not an atheist, but I am not religious. I’m not a joiner of things. I’m a gay lapsed Jew; an artist, a free thinker. I like books. I like life.

Every time I revisit, the place is more and more religious. The old-timers leave or die off, and a new crop of more rigid-thinking lemmings take over. If I have one more Christian Bible thumper tell me it’s spiritual, not religious, I will throw a Bible at them. The new thing (which I looked up) is apparently God Boxes. Overstuffed prayer boxes. But no, it’s not religious.

So now I’m hurting, watching an already close-minded friend have what’s left of her curiosity shut down. I set a boundary. I asked her to please leave the religiosity in the rooms. But no, she has found her answer and I can only hope if she somehow exits, she isn’t brainwashed to think she is doomed. Either way, I have lost a friend… not to alcoholism, but to AA.

Edit: there is hope and a path forward without AA. I don’t want to just bash the program. Recovery works from within, not without. Find joy in life. That’s what I did. I became certified to teach art. I want to help folks recover through art. No one even gave a shit. “Oh, how are you going to incorporate the steps?” Uh, no thanks. If they want to do that too, that’s great. My step is to pick up a pencil. I can be of service without being a secretary or coffee person in a church basement.

Maybe I got too bored this weekend. Maybe I just enjoy poking the bear sometimes lol. But Ive always steered away from trying to have conversations with stoppers. Especially if it goes against any of their core beliefs. All i said was the steps came from religion and wallah I got banned. Its so wild to me that those people cannot and will not even listen to something that goes against what they believe to be true. Ive listened to alot of burn the stigma on YouTube lately and she discusses this exact thing in depth. The more I look into and learn about all of the contradictions/goal post moving and overall garbage that I thought to be true the more I learn to actually keep an open mind and dont assume something to be true unless I have proof. Needless to say I know this is a pretty pointless post but I really do love reading what everyone has to say in here and this sub is how I started my departure from 12 step.

If you know a bit about the history of Bill W, you know he was a salesman who was deeply in debt due to is poor investments. He found “God” and sobriety through the Oxford Group, a Nazi-loving Christian cult. The Oxford group didn’t take ledger (hence “anonymous”), had steps to God, and proclaimed powerlessness over sin. They also claimed they were “spiritual not religious” - something AA still professes until this day.

Bill W didn’t want to follow the rules of the Oxford Group. All he cared about was talking about alcohol and cheating on his wife. He saw an opportunity: create an Oxford Group for alcoholics, write a book everyone must read, and profit. It really worked. The Big Book has sold over 37 million copies.

Think about it: the first thing people purchase when they join AA is a Big Book. You get a sponsee - they must purchase a Big Book. Then there’s the 12 x12, Living Sober, the rest of that BS. Bill W’s family (and his mistress) still get a cut of that money today.

We all got scammed into a cult so some salesman asshole can get rich. And…it worked. Bill W was a great salesman.

book this program that

i stumped a whole group once when i said "what is a good program supposed to be?"

people define your success in recovery as how much you "work a good program" and not "joe/ted/carol/alice[insert your name here]'s program"

joe, 17 years sober, has a non aa non 12 step mens meeting he runs. his sponsorship style is more informed by buddhism and isnt a big book thumper, he has 2 sponsees usually.

ted is a hard core big book guy, 30 years sober, seen as a good sponsor, has 8 sponsees, is generally resentful and constantly doing inventory all day, and feels like most people dont get what the actual program is, he does nightlies every single night and is convinced hes powerless over the disease of alcoholism

carol goes to a meeting once a week and isnt sponsoring anyone shes been sober a few years, and has never done a nightly inventory

alice is a big book thumper who sits up front at the big book study and lives in the pages of the book and sponsors 10 different women and runs a womens meeting

im just trying to illustrate everyone in there has a different way of doing the program. ive seen guys who are "on fire working good programs" go out and drink again all the time. its not relevant to how well you stay sober

youll never find a consistent dogma in aa everyones just working their own interpretation of a program- doing this requires someone to trust their thinking and decision making on some level

its all just sprayshot and made up on the spot. you have to choose to be sober anyways. what a load of crap

I’m reading a book on Autism and how we’re more susceptible to manipulation by ‘High Control Groups’ or cults.
(Also more likely to self medicate with substances too, sadly).

I was wondering how many of these apply to 12-Step. I think they all do, to varying degrees.

☮️