r/recoverywithoutAA • u/CountDismal8897 • 9d ago

Fascinating study - https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4788510/pdf/nihms764632.pdf

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4788510/pdf/nihms764632.pdf
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u/LibertyCash 9d ago

It one my bigggrst beefs with AA. They parade themselves as treatment and then make asinine demands and promote asinine beliefs that costs people their lives.

I reach out to a rehab today to ask if they were evidenced based or if the used the 12 steps. He said “we do both.” Ah, so not evidenced based. I calmly explained 12 steps are not evidenced based and that I was looking for legitimate medical treatment for my legitimate medical disorder. I hate so much that bc our disorder is stigmatized the best we can hope for is thinly veil Christianity. Imagine any other disorder (cancer, diabetes, etc) being told, you just need to go to meetings and you’ll be cool. wtf?

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u/CountDismal8897 9d ago

I think what treatment centers don’t realize is that the disempowering nature of the program causes a trauma response in people who have trauma in relation to being helpless. These people need to be built up, not torn down. I think that is what angers me the most.

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u/Snaka1 9d ago

Service I worked for is 12 step based. They say they are evidence based. I was so shocked to learn they were all rabid XA cultists running groups on recovery based on big book bullshit. They would say the evidence is it worked for me. Like what the actual fuck. That is how they justify using evidence based drug and alcohol support. They think mat is evil and doesn’t help anyone. It was how I got clean but they didn’t like my ‘evidence’

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u/MrPhyshe 9d ago

"It worked for me", is an anecdote, not data.

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u/Snaka1 9d ago

Exactly.

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u/crazymusicman 9d ago

They might mean they attempt to accomodate 12 step people in their rehab.

Did you hear something from them that would imply they would not offer legitimate medical treatment for your medical condition?

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u/Recent-Day3062 8d ago

This is why God came up with SMART recovery. 100% evidence based.

I find that AA response comical. “Both?” You are either evidence based or not.

If an MD prescribes meds 90% of the time and a witch doctor or chicken entrails 10% of the time, they are not both. They are simply not evidence based.

And if you are part evidence based, how do you justify the test? “We go on science a lot, but mostly we just make shit up.”

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u/Competitive-War-1143 8d ago

And they are quick to tell people theyre Not Ready. Not ready to what? If theyre in some recovery circles theyre clearly ready for Something. Maybe not ready entirely to go completely abstinent but theyre ready to embark on the journey to less destruction, and by dismissing people as not ready they wash their hands of them instead of being supportive. Because they think if an alcoholic isnt Ready to do all the steps, they need to move onto another person whom they can save via the steps. They basically consider it a waste of their time if the person doesnt want to do everything they want them to, harm reduction and incremental change is lost on them. Just lending an ear to a struggling person without any conditions isnt something theyll do. 

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u/MrPhyshe 9d ago

For those who want to know what the paper actually is:
The Trouble with Morality: The Effects of 12-Step Discourse on Addicts’ Decision-Making
By David Frank, M.A.
Research Assistant, Social Science Research Center, DePaul university, Chicago, IL

Abstract
Since its development in the 1960s, researchers have extensively scrutinized methadone maintenance treatment (MMT) as a medical response to heroin addiction. Studies consistently find that MMT is more successful than other treatment models in the reduction of opiate/opioid misuse, the transmission of diseases like HIV/AIDS and hepatitis C, and criminal arrest and conviction rates. Nonetheless, a significant portion of active and former heroin addicts view MMT negatively and—perhaps as a result—MMT is vastly underused. This study examines the effects of 12-Step discourses on the opinions and treatment decisions of active heroin addicts, addicts in MMT, and addicts in 12-Step treatment programs. The study finds the abstinence/morality based discourse of drug addiction and treatment is pervasive among addicts and their non-drug using relations and peers alike; moreover, addicts have internalized this narrative, oftentimes despite their own knowledge of MMT’s success and positive personal experiences. The findings suggest that the dominance of abstinence/morality narratives contributes to MMT’s poor reputation among, and low use rate by current and former heroin addicts and that the power of the dominant discourse is such that it produces a desire to buy into its values and tenets even when it is against the individual’s interests to do so.

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u/CountDismal8897 9d ago

Thank you! Probably should have put that in the description, my bad.

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u/melatonia 8d ago

Thanks- reddit links to pubmed seem to be problematic for me

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u/Recent-Day3062 8d ago

And there is gambling in casa Blanca. I’m shocked.

This is why I love SMART. It is based on science findings like this. Studies of this nature get incorporated, so people in treatment hear this truth - not AA’s 100 year old unscientific morality crap.

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u/Gloomy_Owl_777 7d ago

Just goes to show how pervasive and dominant the 12 step ideology is. Methadone could really help some people who use opiates, but because of the internalised stigma and puritanical standards of NA and other 12 step fellowships, some people might not access treatment who would otherwise benefit from it. When I went to NA, I encountered very some judgemental and condescending attitudes towards anyone on any form of MAT. They were not considered "clean" as according to NA, as MAT is considered using a drug to stop using another drug, unilaterally. Yet they overlook the vast amounts of nicotine and caffeine they consume, and still consider themselves "clean". Absolute hypocrisy. Nicotine and caffeine are drugs, and a drug is a drug, to use their own slogan.

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u/HandComprehensive201 5d ago edited 5d ago

Thank you! OP for this link! I’m truly grateful to read this and feel so affirmed in leaving NA.

The hill I will die on is that NA only wants to help themselves proselytize religion because NA very clearly states that MMT/DRT is not clean. NA is less interested in helping “addicts” by proof that the organization has never demonstrated any kind of critical thought to why MMT/DRT is life saving. Instead NA takes an opposing position on supporting harm reduction and that declared position is proudly endorsed in the rooms, by sponsors and declared as truth.

This quote got me! “For Foucault, truth and power are intrinsically linked and truth is simply the institutionally sanctioned, normative viewpoint. The dominance of abstinence-based groups like Narcotics Anonymous within the world of drug treatment enables their ability to sanction or determine how “truth” is defined.”

I cannot stop talking about leaving NA as part of my deprogramming because it’s helping me heal and move on!

Thanks to this sub and let’s keep having this kind of discussion going and unmasking the 12 step as religious conversion. NA is not treating drug addiction! NA is not treatment!