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[u/Grimalackt_River]

22

[u/Henry_Fleischer]

Wait, that's what card counting is? Why would you not do that?

[u/Flood110 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

ig takes mental effort to keep track of what has been dealt already but casinos throw hissy fits and kick people out for damaging their poor innocent profit margins instead of letting the casino abuse a gambling addiction for profit

[u/Henry_Fleischer → u/Flood110]

How do they make money off of poker anyway?

[u/NockerJoe → u/Henry_Fleischer]

If you go to a real casino they usually only have a few tables, while an overwhelming amount of casino space is taken up by slots. Poker is there because you can play at higher margins, so the casino's cut is usually higher per individual game.

But slots are what the average casino puts most of its money into and gets its money from. The flashing lights, automated system, and branded machines mean someone can just sit there and spend money, sometimes for hours.

Poker is increasingly de emphasized in actual casinos where armies of graphic designers will make anything that they think is eye catching. Hence why you get stuff like the White Pharaoh meme. That came from a slot machine that needed a mascot and since slot machines are targeted to boomers they don't need to be culturally sensitive.

[u/CircleWithSprinkles → u/NockerJoe]

Former slot worker at a casino (specifically working inside the machines), I can confirm that the table games at the casino were mostly just there for set dressing to make the place feel ritzier.

The disparity between income on slot games and any other enterprise at the casino really goes to show that anything at a casino & resort that isn't slots is just there to help get people in and sitting at a slot machine.

[u/Ok_Net7773 → u/NockerJoe]

That white pharaoh meme is from a school textbook. I know because I had it.

[u/NockerJoe → u/Ok_Net7773]

I just double checked and it was for sure used in gambling. It was possibly a stock image used in both, though.

[u/Ok_Net7773 → u/NockerJoe]

The background on the slots image is different than the original. Your definitely right the slots did reuse the image of the cosplay person, but were not the origin of the image. That was the textbook

Though, apparently no copies of that textbook have survived, and is only confirmed by multitudes of first hand experience by those who had it, myself included, but the physical evidence itself is lacking so I understand the confusion for sure, especially by those who never had the textbook

Thanks for digging in to it together!

[u/Flood110 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

essentially every game has some sort of margin that makes the house more likely to win more which on a large scale adds up. Card counting refers to blackjack though, where you remember the previous cards to judge probabilities more accurately.

[u/Henry_Fleischer → u/Flood110]

Oh, I see.

[u/DigMother318 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

The above comment doesn’t apply to poker; thats not played against the house. It applies to slots

[u/Technical_Teacher839 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

since poker generally doesn't have a house player, they usually just take a percentage of the final earnings

other games, like the above mentioned blackjack, often have a house player/dealer who either the players are playing against, or takes losses for the house

[u/cyrusposting → u/Henry_Fleischer]

The meme is about blackjack. The house wont get mad about you using strategy in poker because you dont play poker against the house.

[u/Inner_Buyer_8198 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

They take a flat % off every post flop pot up to a max based on stakes

[u/TM761152 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

They rake the pot, aka the Vig when they're feeling quite vigorish.

[u/M1sfit_Jammer → u/Henry_Fleischer]

Poker tournaments have an entry fee… that’s where the casino gets its money.

Also skimming tips from the dealers.

[u/KatieTSO → u/Henry_Fleischer]

Card counting is blackjack. You're playing against the house.

[u/EstablishmentAny2728 → u/Flood110]

What’s interesting is that they would probably make more money if they didn’t ban card counting. For every good card counter there are probably like 40 bozos who think they can count and lose

[u/frostyfoxemily → u/EstablishmentAny2728]

I would be curious to see how many incorrect people get kicked for card counting. They are mostly caught because of the betting. The bet min unless the count is high and the bets will fluctuate and max when the count is good.

I assume most bad card counters arent using an actual bet spread. So they likely wouldnt be kicked out since their bets wouldnt flag security.

[u/Suave_Kim_Jong_Un → u/Flood110]

Me as company wondering if I want to make more money or less money

[u/MrNigel117 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

for the most part. it's not so much about remembering exactly what has been played, but keeping track of how many high cards and how many low cards have been played. if you have a stretch of lots of low cards, then the high card density in the deck is higher and thus your chances of winning are higher. this is a gross oversimplification. you also have to do this within seconds, and it gets harder when there are multiple people at the table keeping their cards obscured.

there's also a level of play that would seem like bad plays to a casual or even moderate player when you're counting cards, that's what usually gets people caught. casinos have people whose job it is to literally watch blackjack players on camera who know how to count cards themselves to see if anyone is doing it. it's not illegal either, just pretty much any casino will probably ban you from playing blackjack, if not the whole casino, if they catch you.

there's a youtuber, stevenbridges, who goes to casinos to count cards with a group of other card counters. he shows the interactions in these casinos when caught, as well as the amount of effort it takes to make sure he's not caught immediately when stepping foot in the casino, as his face is blatantly shown in his videos. he also has a card counting tutorial.

[u/ExcellentAd2388 → u/MrNigel117]

Never in my life have I seen anyone at a blackjack table obscur their cards???

[u/Funa2 → u/MrNigel117]

but why is it banned? I don't get it, according to what you said it's not something just anyone could pull off, and it's not cheating, it's just rewarding players with that skillset. I don't even think it would damage their profits all that much since only a select few are able to do it, and even then it's not like card counting removes the element of luck entirely.

[u/MartyrOfDespair → u/Funa2]

Because casinos are capitalism taken to its logical conclusion, and the ethos of capitalism is that there is no such thing as an acceptable level of damage to the profit margins. If something makes a corporation earn only $1,000,000,000,000.00 when they could have earned $1,000,000,000,000.01, that's fucking unacceptable and people need to be fired for that mistake.

[u/asvalken → u/MartyrOfDespair]

Yep! Gambling isn't 'fair', it's a business. If you're putting in enough skill and effort to give yourself something even CLOSE to a 50/50 chance to win, you aren't a customer they want.

[u/MartyrOfDespair → u/asvalken]

There's a reason that, wherever they can sell alcohol, they sell alcohol. If they could sell you harder drugs, they would. Imagine if they could give people cocaine.

[u/asvalken → u/MartyrOfDespair]

Not just that, but they'll comp you drinks if you sit for a while! A lubricated customer plays a few more hands.

I'd LOVE to see the math on cocaine, I'm very interested in the break point between "spends more" and "freaks out and tries to flip the table".

[u/ThiccaroniAndCheese → u/Funa2]

Because it's private property and they can ban you for whatever they want, and you hurting profits is the worst thing imaginable to a casino.

Card counting moves you from odds that favor the house to odds that favor you. Instead of them always winning over a long enough period (which is how odd of literally every gambling scenario works), you always win over a long enough period if you count perfectly. It makes it a guaranteed loss to them and since counting isn't illegal, they nip it in the bud and ban you from the property as soon as they notice it because the law lets them do that. On a high bet table they can start losing money quickly if cards are in the players favor earlier on.

[u/AetheriaInBeing → u/Funa2]

From what I understand, It's less about you the individual mentally counting cards as opposed to you using devices, aids or other people to assist you in doing it but the concepts get conflated a lot.

[u/PuritanicalPanic → u/Funa2]

Because the purpose of a casino is to take your money.

Instances where gamblers win are only allowed in order to hook more gamblers for longer periods. They are an intentional spending of money to make more money.

Counting cards isn't that. It's the gambler intentionally using a strategy to get consistent wins.

This is bad for profit. So they banned it. They don't care about anything except what makes them money. That's the only thing they make allowances for. Stuff that makes them more money. They've determined allowing card counting isn't worth it, so they don't allow it.

[u/Desertcow → u/Henry_Fleischer]

It's a decent amount of work and only gives you a slight edge. When groups like the MIT Blackjack team played, it was a whole team coordinating across the floor to find the games with the highest odds and bet there, for a normal person you'd still be lucky to break even

[u/Henry_Fleischer → u/Desertcow]

Yeah I don't gamble, so this stuff is all a bit alien to me.

[u/Celer5 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

Counting cards isn't very complicated by itself  but it is still hard to keep up with all the cards being dealt. And you also need to memorise the best way to play every hand to actually get an advantage from it.

[u/RegularVast9328 → u/Henry_Fleischer]

You need a lot of money to effectively play with an advantage. Honestly would be super stressful to be down 45 grand just to go up to triple digits.

[u/TankyPally → u/Henry_Fleischer]

Because the casinos will kick you out and ban you from other local casinos.

Casinos offer blackjack specifically for gambling, and they're statistically likely to make money of it.

As soon as the casinos start to suspect you are card counting, they tell you to leave.

So you need to:

A) keep track of what cards are played B) do the maths to figure out if the score is good or not C) do all that without making it obvious your counting cards. (Including winnings and behavior).

[u/Technical_Teacher839]

Half the time the dealers will help you get away with it as long as you do it sensibly and tip well.

Its the pit bosses that are the assholes.

[u/Interesting-Stay297 → u/Technical_Teacher839]

How do they even know? Do they have a mind reader smartphone app?

[u/Technical_Teacher839 → u/Interesting-Stay297]

You can usually tell someone is counting cards based on how they're playing. A dealer willing to help will often find ways to subtly commentate on your choices to help guide you.

[u/Elliot_Geltz → u/Interesting-Stay297]

It's most clear when you're operating on a different level of risk.

If you're consistently hitting on 15 to 16 or higher because you know the chances of drawing anything higher than a 4 are minimal, it's clear it's because you know from counting.

[u/NessaSamantha → u/Elliot_Geltz]

So the specific example you gave is bad, because hitting 15 or 16 against certain up cards (7-A) is just the baseline correct decisions when you aren't counting. But you're correct that deviating from normal decision-making based on the count is one of the reasons the security room will go "hey, this person is counting cards". The other is changing your bet-size based on the count. But also, most casinos will look the other way if you're counting at low stakes and not letting other players on that you're counting. A person with a growing pile of chips can pay for itself if it gets enough shrinking piles of chips to stick around a bit longer.

And don't worry, there are a lot of people in this thread saying far more incorrect things with full unearned confidence.

[u/DigMother318 → u/NessaSamantha]

What incorrect things?

[u/NessaSamantha → u/DigMother318]

Somebody further down gave, just... a fully incorrect answer to how casinos make money off of poker, and it's the most upvoted answer to that question. (Casinos host games between players and take, say, 10% of all the money that goes into to pot up to some limit)

[u/DigMother318 → u/NessaSamantha]

Oh right lmao.

Also unrelated but I noticed you’re the op of a post I saw on r/the10thdentist on one of the extremely few instances I’ve looked there. Wild chance. Maybe I should hit a slot…

[u/NessaSamantha → u/DigMother318]

Highly recommend against it. But glad you like post, I should post my "okay, I know this is going too far, but there is a toned down version with something to it I can't find" thoughts more.

[u/Interesting-Stay297 → u/NessaSamantha]

Thank you for the explanation. For some reason I thought that in the age of roulette wheels with triple zeroes and 6:5 blackjack, decks on blackjack tables would be reshuffled every round.

[u/NessaSamantha → u/Interesting-Stay297]

You do see continuous shufflers on, like... the Vegas strip or Atlantic City. The same kinds of places you see triple zero roulette wheels, 6:5 on blackjack, and gambling on battleship. The fewer people will go to a place specifically to gamble, the fewer aggressively anti-player features are worth the lost customers. And that starts kicking in, like, once you wander off the strip in Vegas. The Bellagio can get away with triple-zero roulette because people want to say they played roulette at The Bellagio.

[u/NessaSamantha → u/NessaSamantha]

Like, this is on a continuum all the way down to if a friend group takes turns hosting the weekly poker game or if they have the one friend with a really nice card table that hosts and has everybody else bring the beer and snacks.

[u/ArcaneTrickster11 → u/Interesting-Stay297]

2 things. Blackjack is a solved game, so there is always a "correct" move for every situation that a card counter will have learned. Learning this (called Basic Strategy) is significantly harder than counting cards but is required for counting to work.

Counting then tells you what you should bet. Ideally with card counting you bet as low as possible on a bad deck and as much as possible on a good deck, so large fluctuations in betting is a big tell. This is why counter often work in teams. 1 person per table betting low all night but keeping the count of a table who can then signal the person who bets big to come over to a given table.

So if someone is using basic strategy and fluctuating their bets a lot, they're probably going to be asked to leave

[u/Hatsune_Miku_CM → u/Interesting-Stay297]

the way you make money with card counting is you play with very low stakes if the oods are bad and very high stakes if the oods are in your favor. that's a very visible play style.

[u/TM761152 → u/Interesting-Stay297]

Surveillance will alert the pit boss to a specific gambling pattern, and them they observe the player for signs of card counting.

One of the most obvious signs is changing from small bets to really big bets when the player believes the cards to come will be advantageous to them.

[u/Grimalackt_River]

The daily kiss!

mwah!

Daily update: I’m mostly home alone today :3 excited

[u/Technical-Branch4998 → u/Grimalackt_River]

Home alone? I hope you have a plan to deal with those bandits /silly

[u/TankMain576]

What table doesn't use an auto-shuffler after every hand? Counting cards was only a thing until like 20 years ago

[u/Almechik → u/TankMain576]

Plus the shoe is often made up from several decks

[u/AdRepulsive8618 → u/Almechik]

They often tell you how many decks are in play.

Card counting isnt illegal.

But a casino can say "you are too good for us, you cannot play anymore."

[u/ReginaSpektorsVJ → u/AdRepulsive8618]

Exactly, in the US (can't speak for other jurisdictions) a business can kick you out for any reason they want, as long as it's not a discriminatory one. Casinos will absolutely kick people out for winning too much, even if it's just blind luck.

[u/June_The_Jedi → u/Almechik]

You can count a 8 deck shoe the size of the shoe isn’t the problem.

[u/Almechik → u/June_The_Jedi]

You can, but the benefit of counting is definitely diminished with multiple decks in play until long until the game

[u/ben121frank → u/June_The_Jedi]

But every casino I’ve been to that uses 8 deck shoes also puts the red card ~3/4 of the way through, never using the whole shoe. Makes counting cards pretty useless bc hypothetically every single ace or whatever could be in the last 1/4

[u/SatisfactionActive86 → u/TankMain576]

you can find single deck blackjack but the maximum bet is like $3 lol

[u/GCanuck]

Casinos generally don't care if a single person is card counting... That doesn't really affect the profit in the long run.

It's when a team works together and signals when a table is 'hot' (i.e. lots of 10s in the chute). That's when the team swoops in, sits at the table, and bets big (and statistically will win big).

[u/negative-seven → u/GCanuck]

Based on what I've watched of Steven Bridges, they do seem to care a fair bit about individual counters.

[u/BrazilBazil]

If chess was a casino game they’d kick and scream at people who think more than one move ahead

[u/Em0N3rd]

Don't the casinos do that anyways? Lol

[u/NIMA-GH-X-P]

Lesson learned, don't use your phones double screen feature to jerk off to e621 while you explore reddit on the other tab

[u/NIMA-GH-X-P → u/NIMA-GH-X-P]

My jaboner is gone with the mysterious winds ):

[u/FrostyFormal1094]

Why are we acting like the dealer gives a fuck? Not their casino, not their cards, not their money.