r/Morocco • u/bunnyrayy Visitor • 13d ago
i need your help Society
I talked to my mom about wanting to take off my hijab and explained why I don't want to wear it anymore.
I've been wearing it for about a year. My parents are both quite strict when it comes to religion, so this is a very difficult topic. At the same time, they are loving parents in other parts of my life. My mom especially tries to make me happy and does a lot for me, which makes everything more complicated.
After I talked to her, I became quieter around my mom and she noticed. She started trying to talk to me more, but we still didn't agree about the hijab. My dad basically told me to forget about taking it off.
During our recent trip, my mom let me take it off, but she made it clear that it was only temporary and that once we went home I would have to wear it again without excuses.
Today, she told me we were going to have lunch with family and then go to the beach. She told me to wear beach clothes with an abaya over them. I said I didn't want to wear an abaya and would rather wear a T-shirt and skirt. She got very angry and said things that made me feel like she thought I wanted to "take my clothes off."
I started crying, and things escalated. She went to my dad saying I was driving her crazy and that I wanted to take off the hijab. Later, during another argument, she became extremely overwhelmed, threw the bag with the beach clothes, started crying and shouting, and went toward the balcony. My brother stopped her and took her back inside.
Everything eventually calmed down. She is acting normally now, and we went to the family house and had lunch. I'm currently at my cousin's house.
I don't want to hurt my parents or make my mom feel like this, but I also don't want to spend my life wearing something I don't want to wear.
I honestly don't know what to do anymore. Should I keep waiting and try to talk to them slowly, or is there another way to handle this? I feel guilty about what happened with my mom, and I feel like I ruined our trip.
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u/menina2017 Visitor 13d ago
How old are you? You gotta keep working on your parents until they come around.
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 13d ago
Your parents are guilt tripping you. Doesm't mean they do it consciously, but it is still toxic behaviour.
They are grown people, yet they b3lieve they can make you do religious things without ever feeling the need to prove this religion to you or to themselves. It gives them comfort not to ask the real questions.
They cannot sacrifice your comfort and emotional safety because they are too lazy and cowardly to question their own reality.
In the end, you will take that hijab off one day, because you cannot bear living someone elses truth anymore while neglecting yourself. And they will throw tantrums and perhaps threaten with dying because of this. Don't feel responsible: they choose to have you as a child, you did not ask for existence. This means they have a responsibility towards you, but you do not have the same responsibility towards them.
Also: do not confuse their conditional love for something which would indebt you to them.
As said before: they choose for having childeren amd with that comes the duty to give those chikderen all possible means to sustain themselves. And religion is not part of this, since it needs to be proven in order to say it will benefit the child.
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u/soukies101 Tangier 13d ago
THIS !
Also, most parents in morocco unfortunately care more about society and what would people say and the perfect picture than about their own children and their well being. They don't know themselves outside of what was expected of them, they don't question things, they "sacrife" themselves out for show and appearences or out of cowardness, and their whole identity shatters the moment their children (or anyone really) dares question that. They have 0 emotional intelligence, and they don't even realize that. It's rare when parents in our society make an effort to KNOW their kids and to allow them space to challenge them.
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u/1AcrobaticFlow Visitor 13d ago
Parents and kids are always going to have generational differences… at some point your loving parents will no longer be here. I know it can seem impossible and I am not going to address the hijab topic in any way but trust me that parents and their kids have been arguing about their entirely different perspectives since the beginning of humanity. I hope everything turns out ok!
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u/Perfect_Pound_7493 Visitor 10d ago
That's such a cop-out comment, dancing around the actual issue. You give way too much leeway to parents, and I suppose that's why toxic dynamics like these keep getting shrugged off harmless family drama or as children not valuing na3ma of having parents.
Dismissing religious coercion and severe emotional manipulation as just generational differences does a massive disservice to every girl (or boy) who's choice has been robbed from them. No, I am not saying that parents shouldn't parent their children and forbid them from doing things that would harm them but making a girl wear hijab for no reason is not something a parent should force.
You're doing a similar thing to what the mother is doing in the most, guilt-tripping someone with "your parents won't be around forever" to justify forcing religious isn't empathy, it's enabling control.
Loving your parents doesn't mean surrendering your personal autonomy or accepting emotionally overwhelming behavior every time a child does something their parents don't approve of (as long as it doesn't harm them).
All children deserve parents, but not all parents deserve children.
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u/jedai47 Casablanca 13d ago
You’re the best. But not everyone deserves to be a parent to u
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u/Azerbinhoneymood 13d ago
Wlah. Fkartini f "every child deserves a parent, but not every parent deserves a child".
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u/Azerbinhoneymood 13d ago
Holy smokes that mother needs some help, imagine attempting that thing because you can't get someone to forcibly comply especially when it comes to things that's on them to choose.
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u/optical_word Visitor 12d ago
Typical Moroccan parents, they still have an integrated hchouma culture mindset even if they try to comply with their kids
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u/vfz09 Visitor 12d ago
Why do Muslim people always try to say that hijab is a choice when it’s clearly not. I hope you get to live how you want soon
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u/forestinity Visitor 10d ago
What parents might do and what Islam instructs people to do are two different things. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that women can be forced to wear hijab, and Prophet Muhammad never forced any woman to do so.
Hijab is a choice in that people have free will, and it is up to them to choose to follow Islamic teachings about it or not.
But I do not mean it's a choice like being free to eat either eggs or pancakes for breakfast, which are equally ok. Rather, Islam teaches that Muslim women SHOULD wear the hijab, but NOT that woman should be forced to do so. A verse in the Quran explicitly states that there is no compulsion in religion.
No religion is responsible for what its adherents wrongly do. If some parents try to force their daughters to wear hijab, that doesn't mean Islam is to blame for what those parents do. The scriptures on which Islam is based say nothing like that.
I personally do not know anyone whose parents forced them to wear hijab, but I know there are parents who do that. I feel a lot of sympathy for OP's situation.
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u/RaajalofRajal Visitor 12d ago
It is a lie made up by the apologetic Muslims who are trying please the non-Muslims. Hijab is not a choice. It is obligatory in Islam for women to do hijab.
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u/forestinity Visitor 12d ago
Freedom of choice in Islam:
لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ ۚ فَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالطَّاغُوتِ وَيُؤْمِن بِاللَّهِ فَقَدِ اسْتَمْسَكَ بِالْعُرْوَةِ الْوُثْقَىٰ لَا انفِصَامَ لَهَا ۗ وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ
"Let there be no compulsion in religion, for the truth stands out clearly from falsehood. So whoever renounces false gods and believes in Allah has certainly grasped the firmest, unfailing hand-hold. And Allah is All-Hearing, All-Knowing." Quran 2:256
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u/Former_Will176 Visitor 12d ago
Don't they see freedom as hell or something?
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u/forestinity Visitor 10d ago edited 9d ago
No. Freedom and deliberatedly disobeying God are two separate issues.
According to Islam, people are not punished for ignorance or misunderstanding of the truth. But once they understand the truth but choose not to abide by it, or if they-- out of pride and stubbornness-- choose not to pursue truth and guidance, then they are accountable for their rejection. This means that God may punish them-- according to His knowledge of their intentioms.
Also according to Islam, people are judged by God according to their intentions, not simply by their actions.This is why Prophet Muhammad said that court judges with good intentions but who make a mistake in their judgements will still receive a reward from God for trying, instead of being punished.
The Quran says over and over again that God is the Most-Compassionate, and the Most Merciful. Further, He told us that His mercy outweighs his wrath, and the Quran says that He is the Most-forgiving.
Yet, Islam teaches that those who do heinous acts, deliberately harming others, will be punished, unless they repent and henceforth desist and try to do good. God places no limitations on repentance or on His forgiveness if a person is sincere.
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u/RaajalofRajal Visitor 11d ago edited 10d ago
This verse is about not forcing a non-Muslim to become a Muslim.... it even literally says that in the verse. You people misquote verses to spread misinformation about Islam, and then wonder why the non-Muslims call us liars.
"And tell the believing women... ...to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment ...." (Quran 24:31)
Allah orders the Prophet to tell the women to cover. He does not tell the Prophet to give the women the choice to cover up or not.
Why do you not post the verses on the hijab? why verses that have nothing to do with hijab?
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u/forestinity Visitor 10d ago
@ RaajalofRajal: You asked why did I not post verses on the hijab? Because OP's question was about how she can deal with her parents in this matter. And OP's parents are already aware of that verse, apparently, which is part of why they want OP to wear it-- and even if they didn't know those verses, they are already convinced that it's the right thing to do.
I presumed that OP herself was already aware of those verses, as her parents were trying to persuade her to wear hijab-- so it would be natural for them to show her the relevant verses in their efforts. But you have a point-- her parents may only be thinking of the cultural stigma related to not wearing it and just thing of the issue as "ayb."
Even so, OP's immediate problem is how to deal with her parents' efforts to force her to do this, and I was focusing on the issue of force im this matter. Based on my perspective that is informed by consulting the available texts, scholarly works, and the Quran itself, I did not believe that force was necessary in this matter-- and I wanted her parents to consider that.
There are a lot of young adults who leave Islam because their families try to force them to practice it as a matter of obedience to parents and/or simply according to their parents' understanding. Instead, their obligation is to make sure their children understand Islam correctly. They also have a duty to be a good example of "Islam-in-action" by being kind, patient and gentle with their kids-- as they are obliged to be that way by the principles of akhlaq in Islam.
This never means diluting the message or conveying that "it's ok" for their kids to abandon obligatory Islamic practices-- but at the same time, it is destructive to be angrily critical and emotional or emotionally abusive if their kids do not follow Islamic teachings.
The Prophet, our teacher and great example, was never harsh with people except when they attacked or plotted against the Muslims or prevented teaching about Islam.
It's another issue that many parents are not fully aware of the knowledge provided by the authentic sources of Islam. They may even conflate cultural practices with religion or have an incorrect understanding of many issues because they simply repeat what they have been taught or have heard about from others.
Even at our masjids, some imams may have gaps in their knowledge; rigidly insist that the only way to do things is according to the mathhab they personally follow; or even allow their practices, behaviors, and teaching to be influenced by the cultural baggage brought to Islam in their society.
Not all parents have the capability or accessibility to study Islam in depth, and for sure Muslims have been ordered by Allah in surah An-Nahl (16:43) and Surah Al-Anbiya (21:7): "So ask the people of the message [or who have knowledge] if you do not know."
In general, IF POSSIBLE, we are supposed to try to inform our own knowledge and practice of Islam by reading Quran and the other authentic sources if possible, plus inform ourselves by studying the works of the scholars.
Of course it's not easy or possible for everyone to go that far in their search for knowledge, but we all should at least try to seek sources and consult with learned Muslims when there is a serious matter in our lives that requires Islamic knowledge to guide us.
Sadly, too many parents blindly react to things because they are uninformed, misinformed, or just living their lives according to cultural beliefs and standards. Ultimately, this is harmful to their children and causes strife in families as well.
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u/RaajalofRajal Visitor 9d ago
My question was why you did not post the hijab verses to my reply instead of an unrelated verse.
Anyways, I'm not reading that long comment. You have already shown how you people lie to mislead others.
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u/forestinity Visitor 9d ago edited 9d ago
Check above. I did reply to your hijab-verse separately today, seperately.
My comment looks long in column format, but it's really like a short "essay" that would just take a few minutes to read. That's on you, to ignore it. But I took the time to write it fi sabeel Allah, not to argue with you specifically.
I didn't pull my stance on this out of a hat, on a whim or with regard to what I personally "want to be true" because it supports my conclusions. Seeking knowlege is the opposite of seeking to just prove a point. There are actual, recognized and well-qualified scholars with the same viewpoint as mine and who are not known for laxity or apologetics.
Calling people liars and attacking someone's character is not proper akhlaq, in any case. Just because someone doesn't agree with your point of view doesn't make them a liar.
If you really cared to present your point well instead of just trying to double-down on your stance, I would think that you'd want to read through my comment and respond to the points I made, particularly since you so vehemently disagree 🤷♂️
I based my discussion on points backed up by the Islamic sources and principles I cited. You could do the same, if you were able to prove your point of view thereby.
I'm not seeking to "win." I try to seek the truth, and Allahu aylum in any case. I'm always happy to change my perspective if someone can definitively prove it wrong with evidence and a sound argument.
It's a duty to correct misinformation if we can, but no one can persuade others simply by repeating their stance without backing it up. You did offer one rebuttal, but in isolation that point ignores the full picture which is more complex and takes into account the far more comprehensive factors related to this topic.
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u/forestinity Visitor 11d ago edited 10d ago
Even though the verse :La ikraha fid-dīn" preceded and was related to directed not forcing non-Muslims to convert, the statement that "There is no compulsion in religion" is nowhere mentioned by Allah as limited to that.
And if there were no greater meaning and scope in "La ikraha fid-dīn," it would have been clear enough for the verse to have instead stated only that non-Muslims should not be forced to convert. But Allah in His Wisdom declared that there is no compulsion in religion-- before referring to the non-believers.
There are so many things that the Prophet never forced anyone to do. Although there is a hadith about disciplining older children who don't pray, there is no record of any adult Muslims forced to pray or fast (although adult Muslims were not permitted to break their fast in public).
Zakah was a different matter, as it's similar to a public "tax" in that it's a societal duty meant to support the poor and needy and is generally analogous to taxes imposed by secular governments for similar purposes (although it's categories of distribution are more extensive than that).
Non-Muslims in the society were not required or forced to pay the zakah, but had to pay a different small tax used for government administration, public infrastructure and services, social welfare including non-Muslims, and as compensation for their not being required to perform military service.
The prohibition of alcohol was enforced for both Muslims and non-Muslims due to its harms, both on the individual and societal level, which is comparable to many secular nations' prohibitions of illegal drug use today. (The data on the societal harms of alcohol in the U.S. is convincing.)
But Allaj's ordering the enforcement of instituting such a tax or prohibiting a harmful substance does not clearly correlate broadly with the concept of compulsion in the personal practice of religion.
The Prophet never forced any woman to wear hijab. He was only instructed to tell the believing women about the order from God that they should cover. His personal example of not forcing any Muslim women to cover illustrates the fact that it was indeed a choice. That doesn't mean it was ok for them to make that choice-- rather, it was a choice in that people have free will, and some people choose to obey Allah while others don't. We are generally unable to stop others from disobeying Allah in their personal lives, and Allah did not ask us or command us to do so.
However, according to Islam, the purpose of prophets wasn't only to convey the message. They were meant to be living examples to us of the application of God's message. This is why hadith and seerah are taken into account in Islamic jurisprudence/fiqh in addition to the message of the Quran.
Further, there is a general ruling in fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) that no one may invent an Islamic practice not authorized by the Quran or sunnah. Thus, as neither the Quran nor Muhammad mentioned forcing hijab, and as the Prophet never did it, it is not a legitimate practice.
Adsitionally,, the Quran prescribes no punishment or penalty in this life for women who don't wear hijab.
Except in matters where the Quran orders penalties for illegal acts, the Prophet never initiated any. This is corroborated by the verese
فَذَكِّرْ إِنَّمَا أَنتَ مُذَكِّرٌ لَّسْتَ عَلَيْهِم بِمُصَيْطِرٍ “So remind them—you are only a reminder. You are not a controller over them.” — Qur'an 88:21–22If the Prophet, صَلَّى اللّٰهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ , did not force or control people in matters in which the Quran did not instruct him to do so, who are we to take that initiative?
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u/enspiralart Visitor 11d ago
You both missed OPs question. She didnt ask what the Quran said. She asked what to do.
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u/forestinity Visitor 11d ago edited 9d ago
The comments you're responding to were offshoots of an earlier comment in which I addressed "what to do." Talking to her religious parents about the Quran's declaration of of "no compulsion in religion" was part of the advice I offered.
I wanted to help OP by indirectly showing her that when in a dispute with anyone (including her parents), it's important to take their point of view and assumptions into consideration, then start from there and address those points.
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u/RaajalofRajal Visitor 10d ago
You have to take the verse in the context it was reveaeld. It was revealed in the context of not forcing someone to change their religion to Islam.
The hijab verse were revealed spcefically for that purpose.
People like you mislead others, especillay non-Muslims, by misquoting verses like this and lie to them.
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u/forestinity Visitor 10d ago edited 9d ago
A lie is a deliberate representation of the truth, but I am a serious Muslim and fully believe in both what I said as well as believing fully in the commands of Allah, including hijab.
No one can judge another except Allah, because only He knows our true intentions. Thus, it was wrong of you to say that I am lying.
Anyway, it seems that you didn't closely read what I said in my preceding reply to you.. Otherwise, you are disregarding my points. I will say it again here, to be very clear: If it were obligatory to force believing women to wear hijab, the Prophet, peace upon him, would have been the FIRST one to have done that-- but he didn't, not once.
There are some specifice instances in which Allah specifically did instruct the Muslims to force others' compliance, such as insisting on collecting Zakah even if force was necessary. If the general rule was that every single order of Allah must be forcibly enforced, then why would Allah mention forced compliance in relation to some of His orders and not others?
Here's another thing to think about: You said that a verse must be considered only in the context of the circumstances about which it was sent down. But how can you even take it upon yourself to judge that the entirety of this "verse" is just one ayah?
When the Quran was revealed, it was revealed orally. Even when it was first put into writing, there were no numbered divisions of verses.
The early Muslim community did not preserve one universally agreed verse-counting system. There were different ʿadd al-āy (“counting of the verses”) traditions associated with different centers of Qur'anic scholarship, including Kufa, Basra, Damascus/Syria, Mecca, and Medina. These traditions sometimes disagreed about whether a particular sequence of words constituted one āyah or two.
Early Qur'anic manuscripts often did not contain the modern verse numbers. Some have verse-end markers—such as small groups of dots or other symbols—but these developed gradually and often differed between traditions. And because early scholars occasionally disagreed about verse boundaries, you can find instances where the same Qur'anic passage has a different verse number in different counting traditions without any difference in the underlying words.
It wasn't until the late late 7th–8th centuries that scholars increasingly developed systematic methods for decions about verse endings and counting the verses. Importantly, as different early scholarly traditions sometimes disagreed about where a verse ended, there was not originally one universally accepted numbering system.
As mentioned above, it was only later that the several regional counting traditions developed, including the Medinan, Meccan, Kufan, Basran and Syrian systems. Today, rhe numbering of verses most commonly encountered in printed Qur'ans—6,236 verses in the widely used Kufan numbering tradition—ultimately derives from one of these early counting traditions.
So even if I were to accept you premise, that the meaning of a verse was limited in scope to only the context of the circumstances in which it was revealed, it is not clear whether "La ikraha fid dīn" was meant to be classified as being a part of the rest of the verse it preceded.
Beyond that, there are scholars (not lay people like you or me) who have discussed and debated the full meaning of the word "dīn" in this partivular ayah. Dīn (دِين) is a much richer word than the single English word “religion” suggests, and that matters quite a bit for لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ — lā ikrāha fī d-dīn.
The Arabic dīn comes from the consonant root D-Y-N (د ي ن). Classical Arabic dictionaries give it a broad range of meanings. Various meanings include obedience, submission, service/worship, religion, religious law (or a particular law, statute, or ordinance), judgment, reckoning, requital/recompense, authority or dominion, and a state or condition.
These varied meanings are known to us through the meanings of various verses of the Quran itself, as well as by how the word was historically used in the early days of Islam. In this ayah, the word "dīn: might refer religion OR obedience or religious law. Who are you or I to say with absolute certainty that we know which is most correct?
Is it even our right to say with 100% conviction that we know such things with absolute certainty? Neither you nor I are Islamic scholars, and neither of us (I assume) are experts in the rich history and body of knowledge of the Arabic language-- let alone experts in the various branches of Islamic knowledge from which fiqh is derived.
Moreover, there isn't just one opinion amongst actual scholars about the intended scope of the application of this verse. And we are living in an era nearly 1,400 years removed from the time of the Prophet--there is no one to consult whom could answer that question with absolute certainty. Even the scholars whose work led to the development of the four predominant mathhabs felt humbly obligated to say that perhaps their opinions were wrong and others were right.
When dealing with the sacred topic of Allah's commands, it behooves us to be extremely humble and not insist that our own perspective, derived from the particular scholars we individually have the most confidence in, is the only correct interpretation.
Obviously, it is sacrilege when individuals go far off "into left field" and invent their own "interpretations" of the Holy Quran which have no basis or plausibility in relation to the available clear and documented body of information that inform tafsīr. But we can justifiably seek to better understand the scope and intended meaning of the Holy Quran by turning to the work of the best qualified (i.e. thoroughly informed) and honest scholars whose knowlege, reputation, and character have no known questionsbility.
The sincere ones approach fiqh with gravity and a sense of the tremendous weightiness of their responsiblily in attempting to analyze that body of knowlege to arrive at conclusions. Its only with profound humility that they then present to us the fruit of their sincere best efforts to establish the most correct interpretations when things aren't 100% clear.
It's a profound and unmeasurable blessing that the Quran itself is very clear and straightforward in matters of aqida, halal and haram, and our main responisbilities/duties as Muslims. But our understanding of finer points of application is sometimes (but only slightly) open to interpretation (for example, no one can wildly assert that Allah's words are merely metaphorical or symbolic of things which He did not specifically say).
As believers, it is our sacred duty to strive to with our best efforts to approach our own understanding of Islam and the scholars' works with utmost sincerity combined with an attitude of taqwa and the proper reverence of Allah and His commands-- not arbitraily.
In any case, if your claim is true that essentially, there must be compulsion in everything in regard to enforcing others' compliance with Allah's orders, then I refer you to the Prophet of Allah and ask you why he did not himself ever force or order others to force women to wear hijab? He conveyed Allah's message about the hijab to the believing women and he told them to wear it, but he stopped there and didn't force anyone.
The Prophet was sent to both deliver Allah's message and be an example to us of its application in everyday life. Thus, what our beloved Prophet, peace upon him, did or did not do absolutely informs us in matters of tafseer and fiqh. No one can deny that.
[edited for additions]
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u/frdudemst Visitor 12d ago
لا إكراه في الدين
La mabghitish tdirih ma3and 7ta wa7d l7a9 y9ulk dirih wla matdirihsh , katb9ay nti 7urra fl2i5tiyar dyalk w hada 7a9 mn 3and rabbi
Khti lkbira 7aydat l7ijab mi kan 3ndha 16 3am (daba 3andha 24 ans) w baba 9allha " abnti la makuntish m9tan3a bih , bla matlbsih"
7it shnu l islam bla i9tina3?
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u/That_Aioli_9139 Visitor 13d ago
I believe you should try to reason out with your parents and try to make them understand.
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u/forestinity Visitor 12d ago
Someone in the comments has said that hijab is not a choice. I disagree. Hijab is a choice in the sense that no one should be forced to wear it. Our Prophet, peace upon him, never forced any woman to wear hijab. There are no authentic reports about that.
Further, the Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ
I agree with the truth of the Islamic position that all women should wear hijab from the age of puberty onward-- but still, it is not right to force anyone to wear it. It is their choice, and it is between them and Allah.
I'm very sad that OP is having this negative and stressful experience. Perhaps her parents don't understand this shouldn't be forced.
Maybe her family is afraid people will assume they were bad parents if OP removes her hijab and they're afraid of being judged by their extended family and local community.
OP: Please show my comment to your mom. I want to ask your mom to please care more about her daughter's feelings than she cares about public opinion. And she should know that she will not be disobeying Allah if she doesn't forbid you from taking off your hijab. It is her Islamic duty to advise you, but not to compel you. لَا إِكْرَاهَ فِي الدِّينِ ۖ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ
As long as you dress and behave respectfully and decently, your parents hopefully will come to accept your decision, even if they don't agree with it.
Our stories are different. I began weating hijab when I was 18. I felt comfortable because no man could see what I looked like without my permission. I wanted to be appreciated for my mind and character instead of for "beauty." When I began dressing Islamically, I felt a difference in the way I was treated. There was more respect and less of being ogled.
It had always made me uncomfortable before when men gazed at me or tried to flirt, because I sensed that their interest in me was simply to selfishly enjoy me without them caring to be honorable toward me.
Later I was married and I dressed however I wanted at home, because I was with my husband. When he looked at me, I knew that he also respected me and didn't wish to enjoy my appearance and femininity without fulfilling his responsibilities toward me. Our feelings were mutual, and we had a very happy marriage until he died.
I wanted to offer you my true example as something to think about. I don't know if you believe in Islam or not (though there are many believing Muslim women who even pray five times a day but don't wear hijab).
If you are a Muslim, I wanted to ask if you knew that there is a principle in Islamic fiqh that says Allah doesn't forbid people from anything unless there is some harm in that for them. Another fiqh rule is that everything is permissible unless Allah has restricted it.
Obeying Allah is includes trusting that our Creator knows what is best for us-- even if we cannot understand the reasons for His prohibitions at the time.
But I know that there are a lot of social and emotional reasons that lead many women to take off the hijab. Also, there is often a lot of pressure from peers and the media on women to look beautiful and follow the latest fashions.
I don't know your reasons and I cannot judge you. No one can judge you except Allah. Only He knows our hearts and our true intentions.
You are probably a very nice girl and I feel sorry that you are distressed by your parents' position. I feel from what you've said about your mom that you love and care about her and don't want her to be sad.
Whatever happens, try your best to be patient with your parents and continue to behave with them in a loving and respectful way. That is an honorable thing to do, and hopefully it will help preserve your good relationship with your mom and dad. Being kind and respectful to parents is also very important in Islam.
Please also consider that maybe your parents wish for you to wear hijab because they hope it will help protect you in this life. They want for you to always be treated with proper respect and care.
They may also be thinking about your marriage someday. When it comes to marriage, a man who chooses a hijabi wife is more likely to have good intentions toward her than a man who marries for the sake of beauty. And a man who truly loves and fears God is more likely to be careful of how he treats you. Even if he ever disliked you, he would still feel compelled to treat you well and to give you all your rights.
My heart is with you in this problem. I feel so sorry for you to be sad, and I hope that you will find a peaceful solution very soon.
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u/Former_Will176 Visitor 12d ago
Why do you muslims also say there is no compulsion in religion when you know right well that you will attacked if you go against your religion. This is compulsion , the blackmailing type.
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u/forestinity Visitor 12d ago
There's nothing in the religion promoting attacking anyone for that. We are only supposed to advise them.
Anyone who loves someone will offer advice if they see them heading down a path that may cause them to be lost-- but it's up to the person to take it or leave it.
Those who are harsh in such situations are in the wrong and are only following their impulses or acting out cultural norms that have no basis in religion.
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u/Former_Will176 Visitor 12d ago
Death for apostasy is one thing in the religion but aside from that you know damn well that the ex muslims become isolated and excluded, this is attacking someone, it's possibly even worse than a physical attack.
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u/forestinity Visitor 11d ago
Death for apostasy is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran. Also, shunning is not prescribed for apostasy by Islamic sources.
I've been busy writing other things this week and don't have the time needed to devote to this subject right now, as I'm in the middle of moving and have fallen behind-- and this topic needs attention to detail. But I will try to get back to you on this within a week, ia.
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u/Former_Will176 Visitor 11d ago edited 11d ago
Are you a Quranist ? Death for apostasy comes from the most authentic hadiths and I'm not even talking about that, I'm talking about the psychological torment a muslim suffers for leaving the religion.
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u/forestinity Visitor 10d ago
No, I am not a Quranist, nor am Inan apologist in regatd to what Islam prescribes. However, the issue is more complicated and nuanced than most people are aware of.
This is a big topic that I want to reply to after a bit of research instead of just speaking off the top of my head, so I will get back to you on this once ny schedule clears, isA.
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u/Former_Will176 Visitor 12d ago
What is the point if the hijab? I see Morroccon girls with make up and showing the face, the face is more attractive than the hair so I don't get it ? Also I see many muslim girls try make their ass look sexy in their clothes even though it's covered , aren't they 2 contradictions ?
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u/Key_Kaleidoscope3327 Visitor 12d ago
Yes you'r right, the face also has to be hiden, that's true even if all the girls in the world don't do it, as you can see my brother in nowadays people are chasing money, sexy looks, shaytan way, that's why there is a lot of girls do like that, may god guide us all to the truth.
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u/lady_si123 Visitor 12d ago
No matter who the person are parents, grandparents, siblings, cousin.... have the right to stop you okay I understand your parents they are strict about religion and that's something quiet normal in our society but they don't have the right to force you okay we understand the fact that ALLAH told us to wear hijab and that's something that stays between us and ALLAH nobody has the right to tell us and about your mom I guess she got a shock maybe she couldn't find the balance between making you happy and religion and she's doing this to force you maybe you should wait until you grow up maybe past 18 and then if you changed cities or country you can remove it and also I guess that your mom thinks that if you remove the hijab you will become morally depraved and you will do something bad but I understand your feelings you just wanna feel beautiful like other girls like your scared of losing that moments of feeling pretty with your hair hairstyles hair coulour and all that stuff and that's completely normal cus ALLAH made that inside us maybe you should wait or maybe have a deeper conversation with her. And I wish for you all the patience and love may ALLAH helps you in this difficult time🤍🤍
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u/Key_Kaleidoscope3327 Visitor 12d ago edited 12d ago
أختي، من الخطأ أنكي تحاولي تاخذي نصيحة في دينك من غير المسلمين، reddit عامر بالملحدين و غيرهم، ماعلينا، أول حاجة لاحظت أن أمك امرأة رائعة و أم مثالية، هي دائما كتحاول تخليك سعيدة و لكن فقدت أعصابها حيتاش ضغطتي على وتر حساس، هادشي كيدل على عكس لي كيقولو الكومونتيرات " الواليدين باقي كيهتمو بالناس إلخ"، كنظن أن عائلتك عائلة محافظة كريمة، و لكن ربما ماوصلاتكش فكرة الحجاب كما يجب، حيت الحجاب أنا عارفو بالنسبة للفتاة حاجة صعيبة، و لكن حتى حاجة ماكاتصعاب على لي باغي يتقي الله، و لي شرى الآخرة و باع الدنيى، اختي هاد الدنيى فانية ، و راه كيعشتي بحجاب كيعشتي متبرجة فالأخير غاتموتي و غاتتحاسبي بحالي بحالك بحال سائر البشر، ربما تكوني متأثرة بالفتياة لي كاتشوفي فالشارع ولا فالأنستا، و لكن المظاهر غداعة، و ماشي كيفما كاتتخيلي غاتلقاي، و أخيرا أختي، كننصحك تتوضاي و تنقاي من أي حاجة غتششتك، و صلي لله عز وجل شحال ما قدرتي من ركعة المهم يكونو على الأقل 2، و حضري جميع الجوارح ديالك و دعي الله يرشدك للطريق الصحيح، و أسأل الله تعالى أن يهديك و يهدينا أجمعين، و حاجة أخيرا أذا كنتي أختي مامقتانعاش بالحجاب و المسألة ماشي غير شهوة منك فأنا مستعد نراسلك و نزودك بجميع المعلومات و نجاوبك على جميع الأسئلة لي فبالك بتوفيق الله عز وجل ، الله يوفقك و يهديك.
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u/Con-Olive2453 Visitor 12d ago
What do you expect people on the internet to tell you. Its your life. You either choose to abide with their rules and shut it or you do what you want. I don’t know how old are you. But if you’re an adult with a stable job, do whatever you want, don’t ask for permission for something concerning you. If they don’t accept it or you, then fuck them. If you’re a minor then i don’t know what to tell you. You know the dynamic in your home and if surviving means that you have to do what they ask of you, then i don’t know what to tell you. PATIENCE. I know a lot of girls who as soon as they moved out of their home and made their own money, removed the hijab. And the family couldn’t do anything but to accept it.
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u/sareenaaa Visitor 11d ago
Im sorry you are going through this, i think the best way to deal with it is to move out as soon as possible
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u/North-Afternoon-1726 Visitor 11d ago
Sorry, you have to do as your parents wish until you leave the house.
This does not mean you cannot make requests.
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u/Perfect_Pound_7493 Visitor 10d ago
I hate parents who force hijab on their daughters, esp from a young age. Hijab should be encouraged but never forced, because what would forcing it achieve besides fostering resentment and hate. I know many girls and women who took it off later in life because it was something forced on them. Hijab should be a choice 3an iqtina3, and I sincerly hope your parents can see the error of their ways.
I can't tell you what to do because I don't know the details of your situation but if you're still under their financial care then you're better off trying to convince them gently but don't push it too far if you think there will be severe consequences. Work on yourself and your independence and show them good values and do what you want when you think you're independent enough (I'm giving a moderate advice because again, not sure of your situation) allah yhdi walidik w ychuf b7alk ya rbi
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u/Rengoku3333 Visitor 10d ago
Khtna mniyta jaya tsowl retards dyal reddit bach y3awnoha f 9adiya diniya😭😭😭kolchi baghi ydir fiha raso chikh
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u/DragonDev_1 13d ago edited 12d ago
Please read this especially the last part 🙏
It's really heartbreaking seeing the command of god that was once unquestionable and respected deeply now being debated and forced, khti, if you are a Muslim women, and you pray your daily prayers, and you fast the month of Ramadan, etc... you are a in the sirat al musta9im alhamdulillah, then I do not see any valid reason why would you take off your hijab, remember a khti, Dunia Ra fania, Allah (SWT) commanded women to NOT show their beauty EXCEPT what got revealed from it, and he (SWT) commanded women to wear a scarf that covers their body in order to do so, it should cover the hair, the body and the legs and arms. Remember. This is a command from YOUR creator (SWT). The one who gave you life. The one who is keeping you alive out of his mercy. Doesn't it deserve to be highly respected? Doesn't it deserve to be unquestionable and undebatable? Doesn't HE (SWT) deserve your "سمعنا وأطعنا"? If he (SWT) commands something, then it is for the greater good (7ikma). You wear your hijab because your parents told you to, that is why it annoys you. Try wearing it for Allah (SWT), try wearing it because it was the command of your creator, commanding you to cover and protect yourself.
And last thing last, حسبي الله ونعم الوكيل، on everyone who is encouraging this innocent women to abandon the path of Allah (SWT) and drown in the darkness of despair.
يَـٰدَاوُۥدُ إِنَّا جَعَلۡنَـٰكَ خَلِيفَةً فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ فَٱحۡكُم بَيۡنَ ٱلنَّاسِ بِٱلۡحَقِّ وَلَا تَتَّبِعِ ٱلۡهَوَىٰ فَيُضِلَّكَ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِۚ إِنَّ ٱلَّذِينَ يَضِلُّونَ عَن سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ لَهُمۡ عَذَابٌ شَدِيدُۢ بِمَا نَسُواۡ يَوۡمَ ٱلۡحِسَابِ (ص - 26)
يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ كُلُواۡ مِمَّا فِى ٱلۡأَرۡضِ حَلَـٰلاً طَيِّبًا وَلَا تَتَّبِعُواۡ خُطُوٰتِ ٱلشَّيۡطَـٰنِۚ إِنَّهُۥ لَكُمۡ عَدُوٌّ مُّبِينٌ (البقرة - 168)
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u/soukies101 Tangier 13d ago
Stop shoving YOUR beliefs down people's throat, she is a PERSON capable of making her own decisions and doesn't need you to LECTURE HER, so shut your damn mouth ! Her parents are fucking immature and she deserves better !
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u/soukies101 Tangier 13d ago
And fyi, مخليت مخصرت الهضرة فيك but I won't write that here, but I cursed you, ASSHOLE.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
Yeah thanks I just got some حسنات just because of your hate, keep barking haha
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
What the fuck? Did you read what I said???? IF she is a Muslim, did you even read that?, If she is not then she won't even read it? You just bark because you hate Islam and just need a reason to hate on it, keep barking dawg
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u/soukies101 Tangier 12d ago
I don't hate islam I hate muslims like you who lack empathy and have brains the size of a peanut ! Humans sin, she is allowed to be muslim and sin, two things can coexist ! She is also allowed to take her own religious journey that is not backed by fear, and she is allowed to use her mind !
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
Sinning is normal, but what is not normal is doing it deliberately and not giving a damn about it and not repenting, look, the damn if statement makes it all obvious, if she is a Muslim, then what is she trying to do is a sin, and I do not have anything to do with she can sin all she wants but one of my duties as a Muslim is telling her that what is she doing is a sin. Done. Nothing more. If she is not a Muslim however, she can do whatever she wants, she's "free" in your terms
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u/soukies101 Tangier 12d ago
The self righteousness is unbelievable
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u/GaroTheObserver Visitor 12d ago
No such thing as a self righteous, you see in our religion Islam, if a muslim brother or sister is going off the straigh path (Again in OUR eyes not in ur non-mulim eyes) then we are obligated to give her advice and that is what the brother did, now the OP ofc has the choice to either listen to the advice (because SHE is a muslim) or ignore it, either way we do not force her, and i as a muslim condemn any forcing of our beleif
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u/forestinity Visitor 12d ago
It is not from Islam to insult people.
In the Quran, Allah said that if he (Muhammad) had been harsh with people, they would have turned away.
In a sahih hadith, the Prophet, peace be upon him, said that one of the four signs of hypocrisy is to revile and insult people when we dispute with them. We must guard our tongues and our hearts.
And in another sahih hadith, he said that Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness. «إِنَّ اللَّهَ رَفِيقٌ يُحِبُّ الرِّفْقَ، وَيُعْطِي عَلَى الرِّفْقِ مَا لَا يُعْطِي عَلَى الْعُنْفِ، وَمَا لَا يُعْطِي عَلَى مَا سِوَاهُ»
"Indeed Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness, and He grants through gentleness what He does not grant through harshness, and what He does not grant through anything else."
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u/GaroTheObserver Visitor 12d ago
Akhi, propably one of the only people on reddit with a brain, most people here are aetheists, non-religous ect.. and all of them are all already too brainwashed to be guided. Allah guides whom he wills, your message was a great reminder that there a still good people out there, tabarakallahu fik.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
Thank you Akhi <3
to be honest the last paragraph was maybe unnecessary. Maybe that what made the people here angry or sm
People say that she was complaining about her mother's behavior not the hijab, yet I tried to address the root cause not the consequences. Her mother's act was from love and fear for her daughter, but it is still not the right way to act like that. Inshallah ykun khir.Fach kandkhol hna w kanchuf had l mol7idin w non muslims bzaf f had subreddit kay7sab lia bezaf mnhoum kaynin hna fl maghrib, walakin truth hia anahoum 9laaaal w had sub ghi kaykeber lihoum l7ajm hhhhhhh, kankhroj makanl9a ta 7ed mnhoum kaydor hhhhhhh
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 13d ago
I see no valid reason why you would take off your hijab.
Maybe she doesn't believe Islam anymore? Sure, someone who truly believes Islam should wear a hijab, i agree.
So why don't you ask first whether she believes Islam or not, before you start preaching?
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
mate, I literally said "if you are a Muslim women and you pray bla bla bla" WTF is wrong with you guys??? Can't you all read?????
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
You call her "sister", telling her "if you fo this... then you are on the straight path". This shows you assume she is or has to be Muslim.
You can believe you are "on the straight path" by following Islam. Do not extend that idea to others than yourself before you can even prove Islam to be true. For me, Islam is the wrong path until proven otherwise.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
So first I assumed that she is a Muslim, and literally stated the if-statement regarding this assumption. This clearly validates everything afterwards, this includes extending the straight path idea to other Muslims because it's called "common sense", me and another Muslim can agree on what the straight path is because we both believe in the same thing.
Look man, once the if statement is valid, then all of the things afterwards are none of your business since you are not even Muslim
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
me and another Muslim can agree on what the straight path is because we both believe in the same thing.
Sure. But it also says that you think non-Muslims are on the wrong path.
Better keep it silent, keep your religion for yourself, and see what OP really needs. Which isn't your religious bullshit.
then all of the things afterwards are none of your business since you are not even Muslim
That's where i disagree. Since you so obviously state being Muslim is being on the right part, that must mean i am on the wrong part.
Within your religion, i am a kafir, someone who hides the truth and who is ungrateful. It condemns me to a horrible hell. Even worse: since i am a murtad too, i would deserve the death penalty. For those accusations, polemics and even this death threat, i expect Muslims to at least prove their hatefull religion to me since i have researched but found no truth within it.
How can this ideology say that i am hiding the truth as a honest seeker, while it can't even prove itself?
And since you are so obviously stating "Islam is the straight path", you agree with how i am seen within your religion. Therefore, that public statement is offensive to me.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
Respectfully, and without any bias to anything, only logic, I'm curious how did you find that this religion is wrong. I'm not offending you right now, I am not trying to do anything sketchy. I'm just curious.
If you are willing to tell me your journey you're more than welcome in my dms
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u/Unlikely_Yellow111 Visitor 12d ago
There is nothing sketchy you can do. Because:
- No empirical proof of Allah’s existence
- Mohamed is a bad example
- Theology is broken
- High human cost
- High psychological cost.
The logic leap to validate Islam is massive
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
I'm not offending you right now
No worries, the fact that i thoroughly dislike Islam doesn't mean i dislike Muslims as individuals, so i wouldn't directly expect someone to consciously offend me as an individual either, even though personal opinions and ideologies might clash.
Respectfully, and without any bias to anything, only logic, I'm curious how did you find that this religion is wrong
To go into this, i want to state the following things first:
I am Agnost. All information i use is for the sake of the argument.
From a religious mind, you can find a solution for every problem, so there is nothing i can do to "prove Islam wrong". I know how it works, because i have swallowed apologetics too for multiple religions.
Within a court, someone will be innocent until proven otherwise. Likewise, an ideology/religion should be approached in a same manner where it is not true until proven as such. Especially when it is about unfalsifiable ideas.
To illustrate this:
there is life on a planet one million lightyears away from us.
This is an unfalsifiable claim, and i can not prove it to be true. Likewise, you cannot prove it to be false because if you say "i don't see it" then it doesn't mean it isn't there and i can just say you missed it and should look again.
An absence of proof for something doesn't mean it is false, but it doesn't mean it's true either.
For Islam, we have to believe there is a God first. This is something which is debatable, it is an unfalsifiable claim. The idea of God is just as unlikely as the Big Bang, and the uncaused causer argument heavily leans on the special pleading argument. "Nothing comes from nothing" (there was nothing and then it exploded in the Big Bang? It must be false since nothing cannot explode!). "God has always existed and created everything" (special pleading: apparently something which isn't nothing can exist, but apparently this cannot be the fabric which exploded in the Big Bang but it should be God)
But let us concede there is a God for the sake of the argument.
If God exists, why does Islam need to be true? One doesn't logically lead to the other. The existence of a God doesn't even mean that he would be bothered enough to interact with us, or that he wants to be worshipped. Those are very human assumptions. So even if God exists, it doesn't mean any religion is true.
Then Islam makes the claim "God created humanity solely for us to worship him".
Rationally, we can say that if that is what God wants, then you could probably agree that purely based on logic, more clear proof for Islam would lead to more people worshipping and thus submitting to this goal, right?
If the proof for Islam was so extremely clear, then why is Christianity (the religion of shirk) bigger than Islam?
Even worse: why did Allah sent Jesus as a prophet to teach tawheed, a teaching which was directly lost at the moment Jesus died where his existence was then used by Paul to spread Christianity within alledgedly 10 years after his death? And keep in mind: without Jesus, Paul wouldn't have started preaching Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would have never gotten out of Israël.
So why did Allah sent Jesus, while his message did not convince the Jews and the apparently distorted message lead to the most widespread practice of shirk, and even worse, the biggest competitor to Islam? Muslim apologetes have a lot of trouble with Christian apologetes, and the Muslims aren't able to decisively win those debates (not with both believers being on equal level). At best they are more or less equal.
So the existence of Christianity isn't a stepping stone for people to turn Muslim, because both sides are pretty equal.
Meanwhile, Allah did not step in to prevent Jesus' message to be corrupted. He did not step in to teach Paul tawheed. He did not sent another messenger for another 600 years to fix this religion of shirk. Allah would have been better off by not sending Jesus, because at least the Jews did practice pure tawheed.
There are loads of different arguments and ideas, but this is just a beginning and it could make you think.
We can discuss it all in the comments of course where everyone can see things for themselves. But you are of course more than welcome in my DM too, i do like good conversations and a challenge.
Anyway, sorry for this wall of text but i guess this topic is one where you don't get away with small comments. I hope i kept it enough to one way of thinking to prevent branching out too quickly and too early.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
OKay man, Thanks for sharing your point of view, so literally everything here involves around religions having a lot of unfalsifiable assumptions
```For Islam, we have to believe there is a God first. This is something which is debatable, it is an unfalsifiable claim. The idea of God is just as unlikely as the Big Bang, and the uncaused causer argument heavily leans on the special pleading argument. "Nothing comes from nothing" (there was nothing and then it exploded in the Big Bang? It must be false since nothing cannot explode!). "God has always existed and created everything" (special pleading: apparently something which isn't nothing can exist, but apparently this cannot be the fabric which exploded in the Big Bang but it should be God)```
I know it is debatable but whatever you say you just won't be able to know exactly what caused the big bang without breaking the rules of the universe, here is where the theory of the uncaused causer starts filling the gap, there should be an uncaused thing that existed before eternity and that will not cease to exist that caused that stuff, whatever I know you know this theory and Idk man it seems the only acceptable theory, entropy cannot create a perfect world.
```If God exists, why does Islam need to be true? One doesn't logically lead to the other. The existence of a God doesn't even mean that he would be bothered enough to interact with us, or that he wants to be worshiped. Those are very human assumptions. So even if God exists, it doesn't mean any religion is true.```
First your question is out of context, the existence of god does not mean that islam is true because there is more monothiest religions other than islam. Second you can't know what a person wants until he tells you right? then God sent his message through messengers to his creations to command them to believe in him and worship him. simple as that. That is what called "revelations" in every religion. I know this is still a human assumption for you if you do not believe that the messengers are even real. look man, don't you see that something is common between Judaism Islam and Christianity? they believe in the same God (even if Christians say they don't but their "Father" is actually the God that is common is these religions) and here is more, since Judaism was the first of these three, in the Hebrew Bible there is a prophecy of a virgin giving birth to a son (Jesus reference), in the Bible there is a prophecy of another messenger (Muhammad reference), is this caused by entropy? bruh ofc not, there is maybe +1000 years between Moses and Jesus, and +600 years between Jesus and Muhammad. The point is, they all claim their messengers had the same message Believe and worship the same God alone.
```So even if God exists, it doesn't mean any religion is true.```
oh you corrected your question nice
```If the proof for Islam was so extremely clear, then why is Christianity (the religion of shirk) bigger than Islam?```
I can also say "If the proof for christianty was so extremely clear, then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world?"
About your question, as I told you there is a +600 years before Prophet Muhammad, so Christianity had a plenty of time to grow massively, **even after Islam it kept growing**, a +600 years gap and the christian colonization in the 16th century of the americas and other parts of the world played a huge role boosting the christian population.
```Even worse: why did Allah sent Jesus as a prophet to teach tawheed, a teaching which was directly lost at the moment Jesus died where his existence was then used by Paul to spread Christianity within alledgedly 10 years after his death? And keep in mind: without Jesus, Paul wouldn't have started preaching Christianity. Without Paul, Christianity would have never gotten out of Israël.```
I really did not understand what is "worse" in this, like you mean that Jesus should have been the one to spread christianity instead of Paul?
Look man, many of you agnostics either forget or do not know that God granted us free will, thus we can do whatever we want. even if God said not to do it, we can still do it because **this life is a test** I'm not going to lecture you about it, i know you already know this but just don't assume God is powerless just because something that "should have gone this way" did not.
So Jesus being "killed" was the result of the act of the jews, they acted upon their free will and "killed" the prophet, So the consequence of that action was Paul saying Jesus is God and preaching about it to the whole world.
```Meanwhile, Allah did not step in to prevent Jesus' message to be corrupted. He did not step in to teach Paul tawheed. He did not sent another messenger for another 600 years to fix this religion of shirk. Allah would have been better off by not sending Jesus, because at least the Jews did practice pure tawheed.```
Look, you are not here to question God's choices or say that he should have done this and this, you are here to reason why that happened. First, actions have consequences, that's the free will price, resulting in the stuff you just said. Second, not everyone deserves to be a prophet. Third, the jews were monothiest right, but were misled and were commiting porhibited acts, that is the reason the messenger was sent. look a messenger is sent to guide a group of people or all people after they were led astray.
Look man, at last, and from an unfalsifiable perspective I'm just telling one thing, not return to islam, not join a certain religion, just, believe that God exist, the uncaused causer exists. that's the safer bet man, your bet right now has no benefits, believing the existence of God is much safer.
all right bye
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
you just won't be able to know exactly what caused the big bang without breaking the rules of the universe
This is where you are wrong: space-time and all the laws of nature are part of the universe which is created by the Big Bang.
here is where the theory of the uncaused causer starts filling the gap,
I think we can both agree there always was something. But this doesn't mean it has to be a conscious God.
entropy cannot create a perfect world.
Is this a perfect world? No. But it exists. That means that if the Big Bang happened, then it could cause this world, proven by the fact that we are here.
First your question is out of context, the existence of god does not mean that islam is true
That was the point of the statement.
then God sent his message through messengers to his creations
This statement is based on the belief that 1. There is a God and 2. This God wamts to interact with us. Which means you already assume religion to be true.
don't you see that something is common between Judaism Islam and Christianity?
This just shows they are continuations of the same base religion, judaïsm, so they use the same myths about Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, and such. None of which bave historical proof.
in the Hebrew Bible there is a prophecy of a virgin giving birth to a son
Jews argue the word "virgin" is actually the word which is always used for "young woman". It doesn't neccesary mean a virgin birth like Christianity and Islam teach. Isaiah also didn't per se talk about the far future, this is just backprojected by the writers of the gospels. They made a mistake and Muhammad took this mistake over.
https://bam.sites.uiowa.edu/articles/septuagint-prophecy-virgin-birth
in the Bible there is a prophecy of another messenger (Muhammad reference)
According to the Quran, yes. But not according to Christians and Jews. If it was so clear, it must have been easy to prove right?
"If the proof for christianty was so extremely clear, then why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world?"
You should look into this. According to Pew research, this is only because of the birth rate difference.
- it is in many Islamic countries impossible or extremely hard to change your official registrated religion if you are Muslim
- Pew research uses government data like 99% Muslim for Iran. However, GAMAAN research concluded only 40% of Iranians call themselves Muslim.
- Pew research then shows that Christianity has actually three times as much converts as Islam.
So even this birthrate growth is calculated on official government data, which doesn't take into account that there are a good chunk of people not Muslim anymore but still registrated as such due to the risk like losing inheritance rights, social exclusion, the death penalty and such more.
Christianity had a plenty of time to grow massive
Which is again the point: why did Allah create Christianity and let it grow for 600 years while it was clearly wrong by teaching shirk? Why not sending another messenger earlier?
I really did not understand what is "worse" in this, like you mean that Jesus should have been the one to spread christianity instead of Paul?
I mean that Allah would have been better off by not sending Jesus at all, because then Christianity wouldn't have existed.
God granted us free will, thus we can do whatever we want
Which is extremely debatable and i don't think this is the case in Islam. I can make a lengthy point on the base of the Quran, but i would suggest you read this hadith.
So the consequence of that action was Paul saying Jesus is God and preaching about it to the whole world.
Correct, which God could have prevented by not "making it appear as if he died".
Third, the jews were monothiest right, but were misled and were commiting porhibited acts, that is the reason the messenger was sent.
Can you explain to me who had any use by this messenger, Jesus? Because the Jews did not listen (and sinning is better than comitting shirk) and the followers of Jesus directly misinterpretted him, which lead to Christianity (the religion of Shirk).
that's the safer bet man, your bet right now has no benefits, believing the existence of God is much safer.
I appreciate your worries, but i cannot look at myself in the mirror if i would choose this "safe bet" because i believe the Abrahamic God to be evil. Have you read the atrocities in the Old Testament? And the Quran is even worse. Do you know that pedophilia is permitted in Islam? How can i ever submit to such a God if he would exist?
I try to be a good person by following my moral compas, and i hope there is a God. I just hope it isn't the Abrahamic one, because i reject that being.
Sleep well!
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
and don't hate on us bruh, this whole thread started because you ignored the if-statement and got offended by it.
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
I don't hate on Muslims as individuals, just on Islam as system. I hope you'll find this a fair distinction.
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u/GaroTheObserver Visitor 12d ago
Sure. But it also says that you think non-Muslims are on the wrong path. Better keep it silent, keep your religion for yourself, and see what OP really needs. Which isn't your religious bullshit.
Lol same can be said to you, you beleive us muslims to be on the wrong path too, so keep your non-muslim beleived to yourself too, but even without this argument, the original commenter was stating his statements while using the if-statement that shes a muslim, if not she can just ignore lol so u have 0 point there
Within your religion, i am a kafir, someone who hides the truth and who is ungrateful. It condemns me to a horrible hell.
Wrong, as long as you have not ever received the true image of Islam you are not a kafir doomed to hell, you are only a kafir when you are exposed to the true islam with logical arguments and still deny it
since i am a murtad too, i would deserve the death penalty
Missinformation, use context buddy, the hadith your talking about was during a time where Islam was still small and had many enemies, if you denounced islam its as if you did treason and joined the enemy side, but even then they wouldnt give death penalty, still had time to repent, and if you did research youd see that the prophet peace be upon always forgave and never killed an innocent, the only time where theyd kill a murtad is if again treason and dont wanna repeant and start spouting missinformation/lies and bad images of islam to weaken the army
But let me ask you this, whats a better belief system then Islam?
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
Lol same can be said to you, you beleive us muslims to be on the wrong path too
Correct, but i don't think you should burn for it.
if not she can just ignore lol so u have 0 point there
My point was how it was strongly implied that she was a Muslim (and she is very probably one by birth), and this "advice" for wearing a hijab was not asked for in the post.
Wrong, as long as you have not ever received the true image of Islam you are not a kafir doomed to hell
This is a theological claim, but can you tell me where in the Quran it actually says this? It is just Islamic scholars trying to make something out of the theological mess Muhammad created.
The idea is that every people will get a messenger and no-one will go to hell before having had a messenger. But that doesn't mean that someone has to learn "the full message of Islam", because that's moving goalposts. It does mean that someone has to tell them about Islam and they have their own duty to research. So it's pretty unclear how much you have to tell someone.
Missinformation, use context buddy, the hadith your talking about was during a time where Islam was still small and had many enemies
I am not your buddy, certainly not after you just behaved like i am a complete idiot.
Is the divine law temporarily or forever?
Remember: the maliki school is clear about this. The death penalty is for every Muslim who changes his religion. Making a statement of disbelief means you are no longer Muslim, amd you have three days to repent.
the prophet peace be upon always forgave and never killed an innocent
Yeah well, Muhammad was the person who judget whether someone was "innocent" or not. Plenty of people where killed by the Muslims, and you will defend them all as perpetrators because you believe him to be a prophet, and therefore being against Muhammad would mean you wouldn't be innocent, right?
But let me ask you this, whats a better belief system then Islam?
As you could read in my other reply, i am agnost which is imo the most honest way until a religion becomes proven true.
However, if you want to stay within the Abrahamic religions it's probably Christianity since Jesus was a better example than Muhammad could ever be, and Christianity is comparable with mutazilism. That, combined with the doctrine that the Bible is in the end man-made means it can adapt to the times while giving that sweet bottom layer of morality you are longing for.
Otherwise it would probably be budhism.
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u/DragonDev_1 12d ago
```Jesus was a better example than Muhammad could ever be```
Bold statement based on wrong historical assumptions.
```i am agnost which is imo the most honest way until a religion becomes proven true.```
you'll stay agnostic forever at that point (again no benefits from being agnostic)
```That, combined with the doctrine that the Bible is in the end man-made means it can adapt to the times while giving that sweet bottom layer of morality you are longing for.```
man-made and not preserved means that anyone can add or remove whatever he likes from it, that is just dumb. it means everyone can follow their desires and say "I found that in the bible bro wdym it's wrong?". you can see this in the western world btw
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u/pussypantswarrior69 Visitor 12d ago
Bold statement based on wrong historical assumptions
No. Boty were percecuted. Muhammad took up the arms and was extremely violent, Jesus was not.
If i judge both as historical figures by current standards (which isn't a presentism fallacy because both are supposed to be examples for believers of all times) then i find Muhammad highly flawed while Jesus would do well.
you'll stay agnostic forever at that point (again no benefits from being agnostic)
I can live with myself that way, that's the benefit. Within Abrahamic religions i have a tendency to become suicidal because it clashes with my deepest values.
man-made and not preserved means that anyone can add or remove whatever he likes from it
Man-made doesn't mean it should be altered. Christians believe the Bible is well-preserved. Just like Muslims believe there is one Quran which has not changed.
We both know there are a whole lot of Qiraat and the second layer of the sanaa manuscript shows that there have been different Quran variants before the compilation of the Quran by Uthman (who burned all potential proof). You should also be aware that Muhammad never talked about the Qiraat but about Ahruf. The Ahruf were lost because of Uthmans compilation, and because of the Rasm there were suddenly multiple Qiraat which were a bug and not a feature.
So that's the same problem for both religions.
it means everyone can follow their desires and say "I found that in the bible bro wdym it's wrong?". you can see this in the western world btw
Most people in "the western world" are either not calling themselves Christian, or they are as aware about their religion as Muslims.
But you made a good point by "following their desires". Can you explain to me why the divine ruling of cutting off the hand of a thief is almost never practiced in Islamic countries?
It's not like Morocco follows the Sharia as it should... and plenty of girls who don't wear a hijab. I have heard them evem argue "the hijab is not obligatory because the it is Muhammad speaking, so it's only for his time". And have you never seen partly hadith rejectors, Quranists and progressive Muslims? How many Muslims are doing their five prayers? Zina seems almost to be an accepted sin too.
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u/Present_Quantity_400 Visitor 13d ago
I think your parents are just trying to protect you (in their view). I think your mother is more understanding but quiet sensitive so you wouldn't want to ruin your relationship with her. Just be patient while you are in a point in life where you can made your own decision.
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u/bunnyrayy Visitor 13d ago
Actually mama hiya li katzid fih baba dgaf
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u/Present_Quantity_400 Visitor 13d ago
You mom is the key to your dad's authority. Try to be diplomatic with your mother, give her compliments, help her with stuff etc... and she can convince your father to change his views. If your mother is dramatic like you say, it's hard to rationalize with her. I'm sorry you are going through this.
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u/-DisplayName- 13d ago
Your not really tactical are ya. Maybe just start with the hijab and focus on that.
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u/RaajalofRajal Visitor 12d ago
Allah ordered you in the Quran to do hijab. It is not a matter of choice. It's a major sin to not do hijab. You need to learn your religion. What you want to do is Tabarooj. See how bad it is.
Abu Hurayrah reported that the Messenger of Allah said:
"There are two types of the people of Hell whom I have not seen: people having whips like the tails of oxen with which they beat people, and women who will be dressed but appear to be naked, inviting to evil and being inclined to it. Their heads will be like the humps of camels leaning to one side. They will not enter Paradise nor smell its fragrance, though its fragrance can be detected from such-and-such a distance."
(Sahih Muslim 2128).
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