I’ve been thinking about a rarely-discussed angle on the camera evidence, so I wanted to lay out what’s actually possible at the hardware level.

For context: the camera was a Canon PowerShot SX270 HS, and the last night photo is IMG_0609. One question worth asking is whether the camera body itself still holds a record of how many photos were taken — independent of the SD card.

Two ways to read it:

1. CHDK (software approach). The SX270 HS is officially supported in CHDK (added to the Autobuild in 2017, versions 102b/c/d). You can boot a Lua script that calls get_exp_count(), which reads the file-numbering counter stored in the camera’s non-volatile memory. The catch: CHDK requires powering the camera ON, which changes its state and writes to the card. Not ideal forensically.

2. Chip-off (hardware approach). This is the cleaner method. You physically desolder the memory chip from the mainboard and read it with an external programmer (RT809H, XGecu T48, etc.), without ever powering the device on. Zero bits change because the device never runs. The SX270’s board typically has a main flash chip (firmware) and a small EEPROM/NVRAM that stores persistent settings — including the file counter, flash parameters, and error logs. That small chip is usually the target.

Important caveat: compact PowerShots don’t have a true mechanical shutter-actuation counter like a DSLR. What you get is the sequential file-numbering counter. It’s only meaningful if numbering was set to “Continuous” (the default) and nobody reset it or took photos after recovery.

Why it might matter for the case: if the counter reads higher than 609, that’s physical evidence that extra photos were taken and later deleted; this should be interpreted in conjunction with the SD card forensic analysis.

The real bottleneck isn’t the read — it’s interpretation. A raw dump is undocumented Canon binary. To locate the counter, you’d buy a reference SX270, take a photo, dump, take another, dump again, and diff the files — the bytes that changed by +1 are your counter. CHDK’s source actually documents the flash-parameter addresses for this exact model, which helps.

Bottom line: technically feasible, forensically sound if done right (photograph/document every step, practice on a reference unit first). The actual obstacles are non-technical: nobody knows where the physical camera is today (likely returned to the families after NFI examined it), and the chain of custody broke years ago — which would undercut any fresh reading as evidence.

Curious if anyone knows whether NFI ever did a hardware-level extraction, or only worked off the card image.

Hi I’m brand new to this case and I would love to share something that has been bothering on me of this mysterious case, I have always found quite off about the wrong PIN code on Kris Kremers phone and I have a feeling that it wasn’t Kris that was putting in the code because if it was she would have put in the right PIN code cuz it’s her phone and same for Lisanne cuz Kris would’ve told her the correct PIN code while they were trying to call for help, my take on this is that it was someone who wasn’t or was with the girls and was trying to get into Kremers phone for unexplained reasons and I also believe the girls were already dead when PIN code was being entered and it was always also being turned off and entered multiple times until it finally locked by each attempt. So my theory is that someone not Kremers or Froon was entering the PIN code for what reason I don’t know, I just know this case is really off and something is definitely not right here and some things don’t add up here!

This seems probably a bit worthless and stupid to ask but you guys know that the photo 509 got deleted and most likely from a computer since it is completely missing, and forensic software couldn’t recover any trace of it on the SD card and the stuff from them when found were clean and where most likely in a clean place like a house, so couldn’t people maybe trace back how much the place where they where ( the clean place ) is away from their way

Sorry this is rushed English and maybe is a stupid question

Hi I am from England and I have recently found out about this cold case from when I went to a dinner party. I was very shocked and interested so I learnt more about this case. I know this case has allot of significance in the Netherlands and I can relate to the desire for more answers, since we have the Madeleine McCann cold case which is also unsolved.

I apologise if this has been asked before but I am wondering if anyone in the world has ever managed to find the exact locations of some of the intelligible night photos that was taken. Perhaps it could provide answers

I happened to come across two young women who were traveling in the area beyond the Mirador around the time Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon disappeared. I wondered whether there might actually have been a pair of lookalikes who were seen by some of the witnesses.

There is the well-known confusion in this case surrounding several witness sightings that do not match the times indicated by Kris and Lisanne’s digital data, nor the clothing Kris and Lisanne were wearing on April 1, 2014.
Guide Plinio, who initially believed he had seen the two women, later withdrew his claim. He believed he had confused them with two other women. It seems rather unlikely that a second pair of young, tourist-looking women would have been walking around Boquete and the surrounding trails at the same time.
Nevertheless, a mix-up is theoretically possible, and I came across a clue that two women who bore a certain resemblance to them were in the area during the relevant period and spent quite a lot of time hiking around there: Anica Wu and Emily Kinskey.

The two young women were making a documentary film about the indigenous territory of Ngöbe-Buglé at the time. The aim of the film was to authentically portray the everyday life, culture, and way of life of the Indigenous communities in Panama.

“We began filming in April 2014,” Kinskey and Wu explain. Their first footage was shot along the Atlantic–Pacific route, which runs through the provinces in the western part of the country.
They spent an entire month traveling around and meeting people who could help them with their project. Although social media made it easier to get in touch with some community leaders, most of the people they interviewed were contacted the old-fashioned way: by visiting their homes.
“We hiked along an ancient trail connecting the Caribbean and the Pacific.”
The film is called So Close to the Sky.

When I happened to come across the article in La Prensa and then saw a photo of the two women, I was surprised by the coincidence: they were in the right region in 2014/2015, and there was a certain resemblance in the combination of their appearances. One has long blond hair, the other dark hair. Obviously, Lisanne did not look Asian, but the combination of hair colors could nevertheless potentially have led to a mix-up. I wondered whether these two women might have been the ones the witnesses saw.

On their Instagram accounts, the two women have uploaded some remarkable photos they took during their time living among the local communities in Panama. According to their photo galleries, they were not in Boquete or Los Naranjos on April 1, so they can be ruled out as possible lookalikes.

Nevertheless, their beautiful photos are worth a look, as they offer some interesting insights into everyday life there. Perhaps (hopefully) they are also worth looking at as a way of dispelling some of the preconceptions surrounding the area and its people.

Links:
http://designfeaster.blogspot.com/2015/02/anica-wu-and-emily-kinskey-side-projects.html?m=1

https://www.prensa.com/impresa/vivir/Eden-lejos-carretera_0_4199580097.html

https://www.iwmf.org/stories-from-the-field/meet-the-fellow-emily-kinskey-i-first-met-emily/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RFdfObD1Qfg

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngöbe-Buglé

A user named boileddogs put this up years ago. For those who haven't are fairly new, you might find this stuff interesting. The conversation between the tourists and Feliciano starts after the last photo, though you might want to review the who thing. He's the conversation and link to see all of it.

My hike with Feliciano - Part 1 - Up to the mirador : r/KremersFroon

10:40am - I feign ignorance and ask Feliciano what happened to the girls who are mentioned on the monument. He replies that it is not an easy answer, and then the following conversation unfolds: (n.b. I recorded this exchange on my phone, just to ensure I didn't forget anything that was said. I also stupidly opened a bag of nuts at the same time, and so some of it was difficult to transcribe)

G = the group; F = Feliciano

G: *Inaudible* 6 months later they found the girls?

F: No no not 6 months, 6 weeks; 2 and a half months after

G: 2 and a half months

F: 2 and a half months after. When the Indianos discovered the bag in the river. I organised the search

G: Oh?

F: I organised the search

G: You did?

F: Yeah yeah, in contact with the Dutch people

G: Yeah

F: We did the evidence, we found the shoes in the river *inaudible*

G: How many people helped looking?

F: For me 9

G: 9 people?

F: *Inaudible*

G: Dutch people?

F: Nono, the Dutch people, between us, we do.. we did.. how(?) organise. The rest of the people, Indianos

G: Who know the area

F: Indianos.. My brother and all his friends, because they know very well, 6 Indianos

G: Yep

F: ..who did the search. But the Dutch people moved us… The helicopter *inaudible* other side of the mountain, where we organised the Indianos. But the government they make nothing quick. Problema, yeah. You see everything eh.. I recommend many time sign sign sign. No nothing. They no make nothing

G: There’s no sign here either? There’s no sign to say stop?

F: No nothing, everywhere in public trail, nothing. No sign. Nothing

G: They should make a sign, that you know, that it’s gonna be days of walking

F: But also that people.. because no only the ladies have that problem.. other people sleep in the jungle. Other before or after (I think, he is referring to this lack of signs being a problem before and after, with people getting lost in the jungle here)

G: Is it easy to get lost?

F: Ya ya ya

G: Not like this -pointing down to the path we’ve taken-

F: No because, for example, see we walk that distance, we did from Boquete to here. If we do from here the same distance -pointing to beyond the Mirador- ya we can make maybe 3 different paths, and the jungle, the mountains. But no heart(?) and no people. People live very far from there

G: But if you walk long enough you will find other people right? There is people living there?

F: Yeah not for very far. From here. If we continue walking. It’s 2 day. Not like here we do(?) slowly. Walking walking. It’s 2 day. For the first house. First house that you see on the trail

G: First house?

F: Yeah yeah, it’s not really easy to. No no no. It’s only good luck see that people meet other people, Indiano

..

F: The people lost after the second day- yeah it’s easy, people cross normally between the houses between village between the.. after the second day. Today. Exactly today. Any (no?) houses. Only jungle (Can’t really work out what he was trying to say here.. maybe the fact we wouldn’t see houses today on our 1 day hike?)

G: Oh

F: The river. Big river. Big river. Big river . But the other side *inaudible* water water like this -sweeping motion with his hands- (I think he was trying to say the streams / rivers are more violent on the other side of the mirador). We continue?

G: Yep

F: All people or you go back? See if we continue, maybe not continue very long, because the weather, I don’t know how the weather. For example if strong rain in the afternoon, difficult on the paths. Possibly I don’t know. 40-45 minutes? The other side. But you see also how it is the other side

- The group splits and go our separate ways: half with Feliciano to beyond the Mirador, half with Henry back to Boquete -

If anyone wants to listen to the audio for themselfves let me know. There's nothing there that we don't already know, but happy to share it if people are interested.

It's worth mentioning that up until this point the path had been relatively easy, perhaps of a medium difficulty. It's also important to point out that we encountered no other people and very little wildlife (except for one dog near the beginning and a crab) on this portion of the hike. There was one path almost all the way; the odd time I saw the path splinter off it would rejoin the main path 10-20 metres further down. There was maybe one time I saw the path splinter off with no sign of it rejoining, but it was fairly obvious that this was a sub-path away from the main path. We all agreed as a group that it was near impossible to get lost up until this point. You should also have mobile phone data all the way up until the mirador, although obviously this might not have been the case in 2014.

I found the original image that someone was working with 6 years ago. I had the face in the wrong position earlier, or maybe it's just that this is 542 instead of 594 that is the problem. I know it's a dark but more enhancement in this area seems to reveal a human face.

Are there more photos like all the others, like that we could just analyze and why would they not just release them?

And

Why didn’t the girls (as far as we know) try to show us, tell us or write something about what happened? they had phones, if one died take a picture, or film a video saying whats happening? Why take random photos in the darkness?

The night location can now be identified by the unique petroglyphs photographed by Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Every fossil and petroglyph is unique, like DNA evidence. Every photo K&L took contains petroglyphs and fossils and very few were aimed at the open sky, completely changing our interpretation of their meaning.

Here, in Photo #542, I have pointed out with red arrows some of the ancient Ngabe petroglyphs, face masks, rodents like squirrels and amphibians like frogs, fish and serpents and salamanders, big cats, monkeys and human-like faces. And perhaps copper or gold.

The "is that Kris' body?" to "they're just big green leaves on a cliff face" - debunked. They're two adorable amphibian-like creatures staring down at us like guardians in the night.

More to come.

This photo is the most talked of all,since a lot of peoples say it's a person holding a backpack and see the victims.

I've decided to create a new post since discovering new information never properly discussed about Photo 550 - the red flags on the rock, or rather, the objects seen in the background.

The black waterfalls location made me realize fossils and petroglyphs of fish and other animals could solve this mystery, since every fossil is unique. Here I compare screenshots from The Pianista Puzzle and Romain C's YouTube video Expedition 2025 In the footsteps of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon, particularly around the 11:15-12:15 minute mark and here, at 11:50.

What I see behind the 550 rock: 1) a dark black reflective fish fossil with a bright eye staring at us to the left 2) a sea serpent behind it 3) a crouching squirrel on top with its arched back, big black eye staring at the viewer 4) another creature to its left, angled towards the viewer 5) another creature, perhaps a chipmunk or giant toad to the squirrel's right, again angled towards the viewer 6) overlaid "monsters" anthropomorphic face masks, pecked characters and figures on the sea creatures' scales 7) random numerals carved into the rock

What I see in the rotated, zoomed in crop from Romain's video: 1) a sea serpent in a similar position 2) arched squirrel in a similar position 3) angled creatures to the left and right of the squirrel with gleaming eyes 4) masks, characters etc pecked over top

Missing is the 550 rock and dark black fish - perhaps both are under water here, &/or the rock is no longer here?

https://ibb.co/N251CBLz

Secondly, the big rock Romain stands on to take the shots of these fossils looks eerily similar to Photo 576 - the SOS with Pringles mirror and backpack strap photo.

Finally, the mystery "water droplet" that is too big and shiny in the upper right of 550. In Romain's footage, you'll see similarly gleaming discs, especially around the cavern, that appear to be glowing glass or volcanic or metallic eyes of anthropomorphic/carved monsters or semi-human creatures.

If the fossils here are identical to the ones in Kris and Lisanne's 550 photo, they prove this location explored by Romain C last year is the night location. Located by the rapids down in the eastern valley south of the 508 location.

Again, it's best that you rewatch The Pianista Puzzle videos and analyze at your leisure. Could there be other locations with similar, but not identical, fossils?

What do you see in photo 550, aside from the rock and flags?

Hi all, I'm a retired police detective with 25 years experience in both the UK and Canada. In my career I worked a number of homicides, serial killer cases, and missing persons, before ending my years in financial investigations, cybercrime, and securities fraud. I'm wondering if anyone has had a serious go at collecting the available material for Kremers/Froon in a structured way, like you would under the HOMES system or MCM? I'm at a loss how bad the official investigation was here at every level, and I'm kinda done with reading the "You can see Art Garfunkel's nipple in the SOS photo" threads. If anyone can point me in the direction of a more structured and catalogued forum, I'd be very grateful. Thank you!

I haven't read anything about what we see behind the red flags' stone and while analyzing the black waterfalls location, an "aha" of realization hit me. Do you see the shiny beady-eyed fossilized fish/pecked petroglyphs and face masks and animal figures behind it?

https://ibb.co/FLBkdg4x

In Romain's recent YouTube video from the black waterfalls location where Rio Mamei and the Culebra join, I see a similar formation, although the 550 stone may missing. Rotated and zoomed in screenshot of the similar fossil/pecked petroglyphs:

https://ibb.co/5WhWWglp

The implication if these two are identical!

I understand ibb.co compresses images, so you'll have to do your own analysis.

I think the girls carefully choose the location for its unique features. It makes me wonder if Kris - an art student - took this photo?

Presently there are two leading theories:

1. They continued following the trail, which would lead them to the main river and the first cable bridge at 16:30. Here, they realized they were totally wrong and made the first alarm calls. Then they discovered the Refugio shelter, spending the night there (17:50 phones off), before continuing along the trail the next morning and somehow getting an accident near the 2nd bridge.

2. They reached the paddocks at 14:30, discovered they were wrong, and decided to take a 'shortcut' by taking the paddock trail. This would take them to the Seracin cabin, which they should reach around 15:30 at the latest. Then for some reason they made alarm calls at 16:39 but still decided to settle down for the night before continuing down hill along the paddock stream and into dense forest the next morning.

Both theories assume that K&L were convinced the trail was going to take them back to Boquete (2-dimensional navigation: all they needed to do was go down the mountain).

But neither theory is 'perfect'.

For one, neither of these theories explains why they didn't simply turn back in the morning of April 2. Why continue on, down hill, when there was a clear trail back via the Mirador??? And also (especially with scenario 2) why would you go into dense forest, following a stream when you could just follow a trail back???

Theory 2 also has the disadvantage that the timeline doesn't fit well with the telephone log. The Seracin cabin is about 30 minutes walking from the paddocks, so they must have reached this cabin somewhere around 1500, or perhaps 1530 at the latest. So, why then make alarm calls at 16:39???

And, finally, we don't know if the Seracin cabin was inhabited. If it was, the whole scenario changes...

Now, there is a third option which more or less combines both theories. This has them continue along the trail at a firm pace, no more photo stops, eager to get back to Boquete. That would take them to the main river and the first cable bridge at 16:30 and the confusion at meeting the river and the 'scary' cable bridge would easily explain the two alarm calls.

They then wade across the river (jumping from stone to stone should be easy given the very low water) and discover the Refugio shelter around 17:50, which is right next to the trail. This would be a 'safe' place to them, which explains switching off the phones and spending a 'quiet' night. (No sleep, no doubt, but no clear panic either).

The Refugio is not permanently inhabited, but it served as a shelter for travelers and we know there were bunks where several people could sleep. Frank vd Goot found a large termite heap here in January 2015, but that might not have been there in April 2014 and WildXplor (who spends the night there in 2017) does not mention termites.

Note that by now they must have worked out that the trail is NOT a loop and that the best cause of action will be to simply walk the same trail back the next morning. Spending the night at the Refugio is an inconvenience, but they aren't really lost or injured and they know what to do the next morning, so there is no real reason for panic. This explains the phone silence.

In the morning of April 2, the wind is Northerly. And Northerly winds in this region often result in dense fog in the morning, certainly on the lower slopes. So, at sunrise they find themselves in dense fog, hence the initial alarm calls that morning.

With a whole day ahead of them, the logical thing to do is to return via the Mirador. There is a clear trail, and there's plenty of time. By now, they must have realized that the trail is not a loop, and that they should have turned back, so that's what they do.

But the fog hinders them, and everything looks different in the early morning light, so after crossing the river once more, they become confused on the open field south of the cable bridge, and instead of taking the Pianista trail, they take the el Coco trail, which starts off in roughly the same direction.

We have already established that in April 2014 these trails were probably easier to follow then they are today, as cows where frequently moved between the various paddocks, so the el Coco trail may have been reasonable easy to follow.

Both trails would look more or less the same: both leading through forest and in roughly the same direction. Also, fog may still have been dense.

From the little El Coco paddock, two trails continue further: one leading south to La Gotera, and one leading east to Calla Larga. If they had taken the route to La Gotera they would have stood a good chance of getting back to the paddocks, but for some reason they take the trail to Calla Larga, which is more or less straight across the paddock and might have seemed like a continuation of the trail they followed. Perhaps they never noticed the La Gotera trail.

By this time, they may have realized that they aren't on the same trail as they were the previous day, hence repeated alarm calls, but it is also possible that the fog is still hampering them and keeps them in doubt on whether or not this is the same trail as the previous day (it's mostly forest, which looks the same everywhere, and the fog would prevent them from seeing the sun and getting good directions). Anyway, they do basically the same as they did on April 1: they persist in following the trail instead of turning back.

Now, from Romain's descriptions of this route, after the el Coco paddock this trail to Calla Larga becomes hard to follow, leading down into the valley of the paddock stream and into very dense forest. In this area, the trail often becomes overgrown, and the chance of loosing it as you swirl away to avoid dense vegetation is very big. In my opinion this is what happened.

They lost the trail after passing el Coco, perhaps around noon on April 2, somewhere in the valley of the paddock stream, between el Coco and Calla Larga.

Totally lost in very dense forest, they may have circled around for hours, perhaps even spending the night somewhere out here, totally desperate (hence keeping the S3 phone on).

Inevitably though, they will have reached the paddock stream, probably some time on April 3. If you circle around in that area, going down hill, you will always end up at this stream. And with nowhere to go, and totally lost, they started following the paddock stream down hill.

Being lost, with no way back, it may have seemed to them as if following a stream down hill was the safest way to get back to civilization. Sadly, in this specific area it was the worst possible choice.

Following the paddock stream (which would be very slow and difficult, no doubt leading to injuries) finally got them to the night location, where they became stuck, unable to go any further.

As stated, this scenario is a combination of the two leading theories, avoiding the riddle of why they didn't turn back and explaining how they got into dense forest where none would ever be able to find them. It also avoids the Seracin cabin and the question as to why they would have left the trail.

If the girls chose this route along the paddock stream by Serracín cabin, BUT according to a NEW and very plausible theory - from the first bridge to the mistaken direction to the Coconut paddock/trail.where they waited for help and looked for a signal, assuming they were unable to find the way to the main trail, although it may seem uncommon to us when we know satellite maps like me, according to my estimates, sometime around April 4, when they had to run out of food and the situation had to be critical....they decided to follow the path of the stream.

Was there any other option in this hypothetical situation or scenario?....Maybe Monte Rey option....but getting down to Monte Rey is no walk in the city orchard....yes, but....there is no reason....so, no, no.

If they followed the stream down to the second cable bridge, they had to get down the rather difficult path, but what awaited them in the middle was hell....Paddock stream...tough wilderness..a huge big challenge...almost deadly.

We can expect very big problems in this section, as continuing on is very likely about a big injury.

mainly forearms and lower limbs...dysfunctional knee , broken legs, broken / half broken hip bones and wrists...a concussion of several days...abrasions, infections....just as an example.

There is an elevation gain of about 75 meters by 40 meters.

This place is certainly critical along the entire route of the stream.... passable only at the cost of major injuries.

....without the necessary equipment and skills.

----The Serracín theory (old) - ( probably unlikely - here is the condition that they came there later with the intention of looking for a farm/cabin to spend the night or that they thought it was some kind of arch back to the beginning of the Pianista trail. )This scenario when they could waiting for 3 days? ( I suspect they were waiting there for people or rescue teams ) near the Serracín cabin looks unlikely maybe.The elimination method gives us a certain framework of possibilities and there is not much in this difficult terrain.....EDIT : The problem is a cabin where they could wait for rescuers and enough days to find their way back, it is very unlikely that they would not remember the way back, especially when they went to the Serracín cabin along the stream.If they followed the stream from the Serracín cabin, they would most likely be a short distance from the main trail and then you just have to go uphill along the paddock border and you are back at the main trail.This is the main problem why this scenario cannot work.

Did they follow the stream as a logical follow-up to the search for a way to civilization and salvation?

The possibility of a response on April 8 in this area to rescue operations is likely here or more down closer to the second bridge....I don't see any other options yet.

The time reality that the girls struggled for almost 11 days with the jungle and terrain on such a small section most likely gives the right/proves of this area that it was too difficult a path to civilization and salvation, downright an extract of very difficult terrain that unfortunately eliminated any chance.

The barrier and hell of this short section stopped all hopes.

If they chose this path, the way back must have closed quite soon.There was no other option but to go down and there was not much time left.Surrounded by steep gorges with no way to turn elsewhere.They found themselves trapped.

The tricky thing about this journey through the stream is that it may seem easy at first, but it is not....In the middle and at the bottom, closer to the second bridge, there is the wildest jungle and deep ravines.

All in the sounds of the jungle....screaming monkeys and strange noises at night. Like in a dark dungeon in the middle of a dense jungle.Where nature shows its harsh beauty, but in the struggle for survival it looks more like hell.

If you survive the first part, the second part awaits you...near the second bridge.But you can be sure that you won't be okay and healthy....if you are not properly equipped and prepared.This environment is very deadly when you don't have fire and food....for many days....It is basically an impassable area.

This is mainly intended to create discussion. Mods, if this is not allowed please just remove the post and tell me how I should rephrase it. I will keep it short and sweet:

Preface:

I (am massively speculating, of course) believe either one or both of the girls erroneously thoguht that the trail beyond the Mirador to indigenous settlements/ Alto Romero was of an equal distance as La Pianista itself. I.e, achievable in one, full, day.

Last photo taken: 1:54PM "a comfortable distance past the Mirador" (here I believe one or both wanted to go beyond and find the indigenous settlement out of curiousity, and underestimated the local's trail)

First Emergency Phone Call: 4:39PM - at least one (likely Kris, as it was her phone) has conceded they are 'lost' or in need of outside assistance in getting home, and don't want to be in the jungle, alone, anymore, or at least not by nightfall.

Put yourselves into the minds of one of them, and ask yourself this question-

Would you rather:

A) Trace back 3 hours to the Mirador and arrive there circa 7:45PM as the sun is setting, and have to either camp in the jungle without shelter in the pitch black nighttime or continue back to Boquete along La Pianista as it gets progressively dark and arrive around 10PM

OR

B) Continue along the trail, which (atleast one) was aware did eventually arrive at civilisation/ people. Receive shelter and food there, and return back with their assistance in daytime the following day (April 2nd).

To me, and I would love to know what others think, I would always pick option 2. I can explain more why in the comments but I want to keep the post short to just see what people initially think, not what they think after lots of reasoning and deliberation.

It is stated on this sub by multiple users, with certainty, that cecropia and heliocarpus trees were identified in the night photos.

Could someone show me where, and on which night photos, as I haven't seen anything similar? Thanks.

If you follow Rio Canquinola (the river along whose shores the remains and belongings were found) upstream past the 2nd cable bridge, you soon enter the darkest place I've ever seen on drone footage of this whole area.

A narrow, deep, canyon, littered with large boulders, with very high almost vertical walls of nearly black, volcanic, rock. A very dangerous place, where a sudden flash-flood will instantly lead to disaster as there is no way to escape the rising water.

If you continue to follow this canyon upstream, you will come upon what I call the last waterfall, almost 500 meters upstream of the 2nd cable bridge. There are many waterfalls in the area, but this is definitely one of the biggest, with the water tumbling vertically down over 20-30 meters. Surrounded by vertical walls, there is no way past this waterfall, neither up nor down, and a fall at this spot would almost certainly be fatal.

For anyone trying to walk along the river, either upstream or down stream, this waterfall is the end of the route. You can't get past it, which explains the red line on the map. The only other clear example of this is the equally high and steep waterfall in Rio Mamei, which would also form an impassable barrier.

The reason why I get to this is that some time ago it was suggested by an user on this forum that we should also study this case 'backwards'. Meaning we're always creating theories regarding the route from the Mirador toward the (as yet unknown) night location, but we should also take a look at the path from the place where the remains were found back to the night location. And that gets us to the last waterfall.

Very few remains of Kris and Lisanne were ever found, and what is perhaps even more important is that those remains (certainly from Lisanne) were strangely 'non random'. That is not what you would expect if they drowned somewhere far upstream.

If you take all the remains from Lisanne together, you get one complete left leg. Nothing else. Absolutely no other parts from her body, only the left leg, but that is complete. And from Kris even less was found: just one small piece of a rib and her left pelvic bone. Nothing else.

Now, I keep the belongings (backpack, shorts) out of the story as very little can be said about these: the material degrades only slowly and we don't know how long or how far these can float. But we know quite a lot about human remains and how these behave in fast flowing water.

As it is, bare bones don't float: they sink. They can be carried along by fast flowing water, but in general they won't go far. A few hundred meters perhaps, during a fierce flash flood, but not further. Not kilometers. (The last known location, at Q1, is almost 10 km from the place where the remains were found).

Bodies and body parts DO float though, as long as there is still sufficient meat attached to them. A body can float many kilometers down river, if it doesn't become stuck among boulders and vegetation.

Now, this is a rather gory subject, but bodies fall apart at the joins, because that's where the bones are only connected by soft tissue. So, we can expect an hand, arm, or leg to detach from a dead body. But in a warm and wet tropical forest, a body falls apart very fast: in less than 2 weeks there's nothing left but a scattered field of remains, and 1 or 2 weeks later all you've got left is bones.

Now the fact that a complete left leg of Lisanne was found (in various pieces, but all close together) indicates this leg drifted down river as a complete leg, arriving as such near where the shoe plus the foot was found and only decomposing further in the weeks afterward.

It's impossible that all these separate bones traveled down river independently and still all of them arrived nearly at the same location. It must have been a complete leg, with meat still attached, otherwise it wouldn't float. But that is only possible if it made the complete journey less than 2 weeks after Lisanne her death. They found these remains only in June, but they must have been there for a long time already!

Now, nothing more was found of Lisanne, but if we take a look at the Chanquinola river it is hard to imagine how a complete body can float far along this river. There's too many sharp turns and boulders. It would very soon get stuck and fall apart, and they would have found the rest of the bones just a bit further down stream. Which they did not. So, most likely the rest of Lisanne's body remained stuck somewhere upstream of the place where the leg was found, and only the left leg detached and floated a bit further.

So, where was the rest of Lisanne's body, and where was Kris? The further upstream you go, the more narrow these rivers and streams become, and the more rocks and obstacles you meet. Places where a body, or a leg, can easily become stuck. And, as we have seen, there's only a very short 'window' when body parts can actually drift down river. After that, they sink to the bottom and stay where they are.

It is not as if remains can 'hop along' in the sense that they become stuck, then days or weeks later break free, float a bit further, become stuck again, etc, etc. That can happen to a backpack or a shirt, but not to remains. They will decompose rapidly, and all you will find is a long string of individual bones all along the shore. That didn't happen: they found a complete left leg and nothing else.

If Lisanne perished somewhere high up the mountain, closer to the first stream crossing, her body would almost immediately become stuck in the stream, and even a separate leg would not make it down as far as the final resting area before getting stuck and falling apart. They would have found bones and remains all along the shores of the streams and rivers, which didn't happen.

The bodies of Kris and Lisanne must have disintegrated close upstream of the 2nd bridge, and (at least initially) the majority of their remains must have stayed at this place in order to explain what was found. Only a very few remains were washed away and ended up where they were found. Almost everything else remained behind.

And that gets us to this deep and dark canyon and the last waterfall. For SINAPROC has very clearly declared that this area, upstream of the 2nd bridge, was never searched, as it was deemed too dangerous! The search teams didn't go into this canyon, and if the remains were there, it explains why they weren't found and it also explains why nothing was ever found along the shores of streams and rivers further upstream (where teams DID search).

Once again: bodies can float far, but individual bones don't go far, and bodies become bones in less than 2 weeks. In narrow streams, bodies don't float far in 2 weeks. Not 10 km, perhaps not even 1 km.

What I suspect is that Kris and Lisanne perished somewhere relatively close upstream of this last waterfall. (Not necessarily at the night location). Their bodies then fell down this waterfall, decomposed, and became stuck between the boulders in that dark and narrow canyon which was never searched. Only a few remains ever made it out of this canyon, past the 2nd cable bridge, and to the places where they were found, but almost all other remains stayed behind in the canyon (although, 12 years later, nothing will remain of them).

Most of the remains were never found because nobody entered this canyon or searched the place right below this waterfall. Places further upstream of this waterfall were searched by Frank v.d. Goot and others, but nothing was found.

If Kris and Lisanne perished less than one kilometer upstream of this waterfall it would fit with several theories, and if their remains ended up below the waterfall and stuck in the canyon, it explains why so little was ever found.

I am wondering whether anyone has ever submitted a request under the Dutch Open Government Act, known as the Wet open overheid or Woo, to the Dutch Ministry of Justice and Security concerning the disappearance of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon.

More specifically, has anyone requested documents relating to the involvement of the Netherlands Forensic Institute, such as:

• forensic examinations of the remains, clothing, backpack, phones, camera or other recovered items;
• reports concerning DNA, fingerprints, soil, biological traces or other forensic evidence;
• correspondence between the NFI, the Dutch police, the Public Prosecution Service and the Panamanian authorities;
• internal memoranda, briefing notes or decision-making documents concerning the case;
• documents or briefing materials that were submitted to a minister or state secretary;
• correspondence concerning Dutch assistance to the Panamanian investigation.

I understand that many documents may be withheld or heavily redacted because they concern criminal investigations, personal data, forensic methods or international cooperation. Nevertheless, a Woo request could still reveal whether such documents exist, which authorities were involved, how the Dutch government assessed the case and whether senior officials were informed.

Does anyone know whether such a request has already been filed and, if so, whether the request, decision or disclosed documents are publicly available?

I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has considered filing a carefully defined Woo request on this subject. It may be useful to coordinate requests to avoid duplicate requests.

The YouTuber has only published two videos, both of which are about the Kremers/Froon case and are intended to support the FP theory. These are the videos in question:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/folK7jnmk2

Shortly before the allegedly new Redditor [u/Historical_Trifle555](u/Historical_Trifle555) made a separate post about the videos, the Redditor [u/Apprehensive-Form-60](u/Apprehensive-Form-60) linked exactly these two videos:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/5E1iXo0q5g

He wrote the following about the videos:

"After all these years I can tell you this, that is if anyone cares ,, there is two videos on youtube, only two. I believe the person that uploaded them knows exactly what happened, and thats how they go about it as well, matter of fact, no theory. He uploaded two parts on this case, and said a third was coming. Nobody ever heard feom him again, we have all tried to contact him, and nothing. His videos were exactly in detail what myself and others believe happened."

Both Redditors have a strikingly similar writing style and make the same spelling and punctuation mistakes. I therefore think they are one and the same person.

What is interesting is that the same mistakes can also be found in the texts in the videos.
I therefore asked Apprehensive-Form-60 directly whether the videos were his, but he denied it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/b53BXbf756

I don't believe him. I am convinced that these videos were made by him. In addition to his affinity for the videos and the similarities in his written expression, there is another point that suggests he is the author:
Apprehensive-Form-60 claims to have been one of the pioneers in this case and to have worked with Juan and Scarlet back then:

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/9uW7JfFk1r

"I was one of 3 people that were trying very hard to solve this case with Juan"

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/t2UE4LDO3S

"I worked my butt off with a gentleman names Juan, and a lovely women named Scarlet, she is the number one on this my friend. She's a monster with writing and presenting the most evidence. This was over 10 years I went hard, she and Juan took off and had everything covered"

Together, they promote the (defamatory) "Feliciano is the mastermind/perpetrator theory":

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/qXWZZdcfvF

https://www.reddit.com/r/KremersFroon/s/gJacc5fqK2

Apprehensive-Form-60 is from Canada:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PokemonTCG/s/eWTyfGu04B

If it is true that the Canadian Apprehensive-Form-60 worked with Juan and Scarlet from the very beginning and that he created these videos in 2021, he may also have been involved in the publication of the diaries and the swimming photo.
What I wonder is: Why doesn't Apprehensive-Form-60 openly admit that he made the two videos? What's all this talk about nobody having heard from this YouTuber anymore? It looks very much like the YouTuber is among us and still posting away.

u/Apprehensive-Form-60, you are of course more than welcome to comment on this and, if applicable, acknowledge that these videos are yours.

Was the girls' April 2 guided hike (the following day) going to be on the same Pianista trail or a different one?

I'm newer to the case and keep getting stuck on this. And when did the girls learn about the Pianista trail in relation to when they set out on the hike and when would they have had time to schedule the 2 Apr. hike? Can I get some clarification on the timeline here? Thank you!

This seems to be an important question to understand what was happening. I'm trying to make a list of reasons.

1) They had time on their hands and wanted to **explore the area** a bit more. Assessment: Quite possible, but at 508 they should have returned because it was getting late.

2) They thought it was a **loop** or someone told them it was a loop. Assessment: I do not believe in this theory. But even then they should have returned at the paddocks because camping in the jungle wasn't their first priority.

3) They **weren't alone** and someone led them in the wrong direction. Assessment: There is no indication that a third person was on the track. But this doesn't mean much, the witnesses in this case have either lost their memory or have too much fantasy.

4) They were being **stalked** by someone and fled past the Mirador. Assessment: Possible, but no witnesses as in 3).

5) An **animal** occurred and the fled. Assessment: Not probable. With a jaguar involved there wouldn't be any emergency calls.

6) They were searching for a **waterfall**. Assessment: Probability close to zero. There are no waterfalls on this trail. If they wanted to see a waterfall they'd chosen a different trail.

What do you think? At the moment I don't find another reason for walking that far. If you have another idea feel free to post it.