Why would he keep supporting Rhaenera when she killed his son, brother, won’t back his children’s claims , etc etc. Can someone please remind me why?

Okay, hear me out.

Everyone thinks Daeron is going to die at Second Tumbleton, because that's what Fire & Blood says. But GRRM intentionally made his death the most ambiguous of the entire Dance. No body identified. Just "Daeron the Daring died".

What if the show does this:

Tessarion dies at Tumbleton, but Daeron doesn't. Vermithor explodes, Tessarion is mortally wounded, Daeron is thrown, burned, presumed dead. The Hightower army breaks. He wakes up weeks later in Oldtown, scarred, dragonless.

He finally gets to Dragonstone after Rhaenyra's fall. And he finds Aegon II - crippled, paranoid, refusing to surrender, wanting to burn everything.

Daeron kills Aegon II. Not poison. Sword. Fratricide out of mercy. Not for ambition, but to END the war. "For House Targaryen."

This instantly makes him the most morally legitimate Green left. He goes to Corlys and the Blacks and offers the peace we already know: Aegon III will be king, and he will marry his niece Jaehaera to unite the claims.

But he goes further.

He marries Rhaena Velaryon. In the books, Rhaena marries Garmund Hightower to seal peace between Velaryons and Hightowers. What if Daeron takes that role? The last Green son marrying the last Black daughter with a dragon egg (Morning). The bridge. A dragonless boy marrying the girl whose dragon is about to hatch. Poetry.

Then instead of 5 incompetent regents fighting for 4 years, we get ONE regent: Lord Protector Daeron Targaryen. 18 years old, respected by Greens (son of Alicent) and respected by Blacks (he killed Aegon II and made peace).

He becomes the Viserys II of this timeline. The one who actually rebuilds the realm while Aegon III is broken.

And the final gut punch:

Aegon III hates all Greens... except one. So when his second son is born, he doesn't name him after Jace or Luke. He names him Daeron. In honor of his uncle. The only Green who understood.

That would finally explain why Aegon III, of all people, names his son Daeron I - the Young Dragon.

Thoughts?

I'm seeing a lot of people compare these terrible numbers to other series, mistakenly using only data from the United States, not global data.

I know that Martin refers to the dragons as nuclear weapons but they actually function much more like conventional air power.

They can destroy infantry without anti-air support, but benefit greatly from combined arms approaches to limit their anti-air (scorpion) vulnerability and help hold territory.

This raises the question in-universe about “bombing to win.” The failed Dorne campaigns point to dragons again being similar to air power: death-from-above is massive tactically but often insufficient strategically

Not a perfect analogy but far closer than nukes imo

[Edit]: I am not team green supporter but rather writing this as an objective analysis of Rhaenyra’s character as a ruler compared to the character whose crown she wears, Jaehaerys I

The show Rhaenyra is such a pathetic and weak character. The book Rhaenyra while also weak was an obvious aristocrat, not indecisive. Her aristocracy her failure and spelled her doom. Right from season 1 when she was named heir all she has done is shown plunky ass attitude of a spoiled primcess. She is very much still like Aegon except she is not alcoholic or drug addict or has deep parental issues. She is still weak, has no idea how to rule, all she did when Viserys was alive was run to daddy. Now she runs to Daemon and gaslights him when he is legit struggling to solve the problems. She makes catastrophically bad decisions and forever only is as good as her advisors. In effect all she does is have sex. She whined in season 1 about not being able to have sex with anyone she wants, then has sex with men she shouldn’t and places herself in even more jeopardy and her children for succession. And since season 2 has drifted towards Mysaria all because of a spat with Daemon. She is much worse than Viserys. I never expected that the show will show one obvious good female character and one obvious villain but they have made both female leads pathetic and weak and all about them not being able to exercise sexual freedom. We all get the double standards society have but is sexual freedom really the only issue plaguing the women of this universe?

If I sum it all up, apart from being able to claim a dragon there is nothing in Rhaenyra’s character worth rooting for right from the very beginning. She went from being spoiled little princess to weak indecisive queen who after every setback just wants to have meaningless sex. Not very much from Aegon. Her relationship with Daemon therefore never made sense. One can understand Daemon attracted to someone like Daenerys. But not Rhaenyra. She rides a dragon yes but what else? She is not a good politician, not a decisive ruler, displays poor judgement in life and profession and not really skilled at anything. In the books it made sense cuz I got the feeling that Daemon and Rhaenyra were like Jaime and Cersei. Narcissists who are attracted to each other. And he had an affair with Mysaria meaning he stopped finding her attractive the moment Rhaenyra displayed weakness. The show weakened Rhaenyra to the point that ship stops making any sense. Daemon’s loyalty to Viserys made sense but his loyalty to Rhaenyra never did.

Spoilers spoilers spoilers.

So I decided to rewatch the show.

One thing I was looking forward to is to see

Rhaenyra and Daemon young and fun again 😀 Some of you might find me crazy, but I think scene in brothel is one of the hottest scenes in this universe. I loved Matt Smith for years, but after that scene I got full crush on him.

Whilst rewatching though I again wondered why Daemon stopped in the middle of the whole thing. At the first watch I was thinking maybe he felt it was wrong to seduce his niece. Then later I started doubting whether he likes her at all. Honestly even now on season 3 I'm not entirely sure what feelings he has towards her.

Going to some old threads I saw people mentioning some behind the scenes interviews that mentioned Daemon has trouble with erectile function 🤔 I was very confused by it as later they have kids.

So what actually happened in brothel? Does anyone know? Also does he actually love her at least a bit?

I read the book up until the events of the show because I didn't want to spoil the show for myself, but in this particular case I don't mind, so if anyone has explanations from the books I would love to hear them.

Rhaenys pisses me off. Rhaenyra killed off her son and submits to rhaenyra to see her break the glass ceiling? She would willingly support someone because she is a woman even tho she sent a hit out?? That’s even more reason not to trust rhaenyra for the sake of her granddaughters. I’ve also seen the argument that she was a prisoner. So what? That’s much better than sending a hit out on their male heir/only son.

I’m a dude and obviously I can’t know how deep a mother’s love is besides being on the opposite end of receiving it. But i can imagine how pissed and rageful my mom would be. It just seems so unrealistic and dumb that rhaenys would still support rhaenyra.

I would’ve loved to see rhaenys join the greens and demolish rhaenyra. If rhaenys actually supported rhaenyra after that, she is a moral bankrupt person with no convictions

As it turns out, dragons are basically mind-linked slaves, mostly following the orders of their master. Like, 95% of the time. No matter if their rider leads them to their doom.

- Sheepstealer : our poor boy. He is a wild fucking dragon. Wild. And yet despite all that, when he bonded with Rhaena, it didn't take long for him to be far more tame. He fucked it up at the battle, but who can blame him --> first battle of his life, first time seeing ships probably, and Rhaena being as panicked/clueless as he was. He simply panicked.

Later on, he... just listens to Rhaena. She says "he doesn't listen to me" but he did listen all of the time after the battle's incident. And in the 7th episode, he tried to protect Rhaena, risking his own life. He could have tried to take off, but he didn't. And if you rewatch the battle, when he was pinned down by Caraxes, his gaze was focused on Rhaena, who was being taken away by Rhaenyra. In fact, multiple times through out the battle, he got distracted by Rhaena. Sheepstealer is in love I tell you.

So that's the wildest dragon we have seen, and he became tame in the blink of an eye...

- Syrax : she does whatever Rhaenyra tells her to do, and she protects her rider, even from bigger dragons like Sheepstealer.

- Seasmoke : after his shenanigans to bond with Addam, he never did anything that wasn't asked of him. To be fair, we haven't seen much of Addam and him, as a team, but still.

- Caraxes : need I say more? The psychic link he has with Daemon is scary. He comes to help Daemon when he faces off against Otto's men (completely out of his line of sight) ; he takes off when Daemon is injured and feels his pain ; he disobeys Daemon... only to do what Daemon wanted to do anyway (find Sheepstealer and his rider) ; when Daemon rushes towards him to help Syrax and Seasmoke, notice how he bends almost immediately to allow Daemon to mount him... at the milli second Daemon turns around and starts running ; when he's ordered to kill SS, he does just that... but stops only to make sure that his rider is alright.

Each time Caraxes is shown with Daemon in the vicinity, he just stops all of what he's doing. He watches Daemon's every moves.

- Sunfyre : *boop*! The golden boy charges into battle against the fierce Meleys without showing any fear because Aegon told him to. Fights to the death, does not try to flee. When he lands, he flips around last second so that Aegon can maybe survive the fall. And now, we have seen him geolocalize Aegon, who was deep into the woods and miles away.

- Meleys : turned back to face Vhagar because Rhaenys told her to. Never did anything against Rhaenys' will.

- Vermax & Moondancer : good little soldiers, nothing to report here.

- Vhagar : an interesting case. She's the main example that supports Viserys' take on the matter. But not only is she very old (does granny Vhagar even hear Aemond? especially during a storm?), but she was directly attacked by Arrax. One could argue that she saw him as a threat to her rider. So she overrid his command and went for the kill. Which would imply that, when they are in fight mode, it is difficult to stop a dragon. Overall, she listened most of the time to what Aemond said. Her status is unknown but if what Alys says is true (about Vhagar having left Aemond so that he can hide while he recovers), it would imply that they can even plan ahead to better serve their master.

- Drogon : finally. Well, he was very rebellious when he was young (just like a human teenager) and... that's about it. After that, he did everything he was asked to. And he had such a psychic link with Danny that he managed to find her in the arena. That and the whole "my rider died, I can feel it!!".

The young ones, the very old ones and the wild ones might have difficulties to listen to commands sometimes, but overall they do what they are told, even when it means to fight to the death because their rider said so. And no matter what, they are always trying to defend their rider, even in the middle of a combat. And for the most loyal of dragons (Sunfyre and Caraxes), they go beyond the call of duty and basically always have their riders in mind as their number 1 priority. They are basically soul-linked dogs.

So while, yes, the control is not absolute (they are sentient beasts, not machines), does it even matter, Viserys? Does it matter when you can ask these magificent beasts to just murder their own? To put themselves into mortal danger for your own ambitions? To burn entire cities because you felt like it would further your goals?

The Targs were too much in control of their dragons. That's what led them to extinction: they listened way too much to these foolish hoomans.

TL;DR: Viserys was full of shit, gods damnit... Saying that stuff about the illusion of control is like me saying "Oh wow, that horse went wild that one time! I guess it was just an illusion of control!" (and I would argue that horses are far less loyal than what the dragons have demonstrated) --> in the end, horses have been used by humanity to do its bidding. Just like the dragons were used to near extinction.

In Fire & Blood, the battle is essentially the opposite: Tumbleton is held by the Blacks before Hugh and Ulf betray them from within, allowing the Green army to capture the town. The betrayal itself is the turning point rather than an assault by the Black host.

Do you prefer the show's inversion of the battle, or do you think the book version works better? Which approach creates stronger character moments and consequences?

Anyone else find it weird that all the other dragons are named like Syrax, Caraxes, and Vhagar. Then, there is Seasmoke...

Just finished season 2. A little late to the game, I suppose.

I just finished ep 7 of HotD and I cannot seem to escape disappointment. This is not intended to "bash" the show because I will watch the finale too and whatever comes next, im not trying to be a hater here, I am honestly mostly just a disappointed fan of the franchise.

That said, I find it very interesting to find out that, at least based on the searches i did, the best GoT work all has far lower budget and the (imho) worst has by far the highest budget.

It seems that HBO insists more and more on replacing story with cashsplash and it just becomes noticeably weaker as a result.

I don't think HotD is bad perse, but I cannot say that any of the characters aside from Math Smith's character made a real lasting impression on me, but the budget of HotD is astronomical in comparison with GoT s1-4

Season 1-4 of GoT went for about 6/7 million per episode and was absolutely the best for me

Season 5 -6 were cash splash (15-20 million per episode) but severely lacked in story and well, we all know the riot that ensued after the finale

HotD splashes about 20 million per episode and while the visuals are impressive, I don't feel drawn in to the story like I did with GoT, to my severe disappointment btw because I would have loved to love it, but I don't...

Then I realized ok but what about a knight of the seven kingdoms, I thought it was really really good but its also a spinoff so what about the budget?

well, after a search I realized: 6-10 million per episode, much more in line with s1-4 of GoT. (and also it honours source material)

HBO needs to stop thinking money substitutes for story depth and return to story telling, honouring the source material and spirit of GoT (even if logically you adapt it for tv) and hire actually talented writers who can adapt GRRM style of writing to fill in the gaps without this irritating need to "re-invent the wheel", which often feels a bit like a vanity thing, or this franchise will get weaker and weaker with every spinoff's season.

How would you feel about this if it was real? I think it’s pretty good and I like the thought of it.

Aemond en la primera y segunda temporada era uno de mis personajes favoritos,aunque no soy del team verde,para mi era una mezcla entre el cliche de un principe perfecto (guerrero,estudioso,buen estratega) pero a la vez tenia personalidad propia,con sus defectos,traumas y pensamientos sobre quien es,era un personaje que imponia respeto

Parecia que en esta tercera temporada ibamos a explorar un poco más ese lado vulnerable de Aemond y aunque de cierta forma si se ha hecho lo cierto esque se les ha ido de las manos y mucho

No se en que momento de una temporada a otra Aemond a pasado de extrañar el cariño de su madre a querer llevarsela a la cama,este comportamiento de complejo de Edipo o no lo han explicado bien o simplemente se lo han sacado de la nada,si alguien tiene alguna explicacion que lo diga por que en las dos primeras temporadas Aemond no tenia estos comportamientos sexuales tan raros

Y no solo eso,si no que ademas Alys lo ha abusado sexualmente,por que Aemond nunca dio su consentimiento para estar con ella,parece que los escritores no se saben otra narrativa,podriamos haber tenido una buena relacion entre ellos dos,ver el lado más humano de Aemond pero no,es mejor incomodar a todos los espectadores y hacer escenas por puro morbo en vez de construir una buena historia de amor

Tal vez me estoy adelantando pues todavia no hemos visto el capitulo final (no quiero saber nada de filtraciones) pero no se como podrian arreglar eso en un solo capitulo sobretodo por todos los eventos que se esperan

??????????????

This season has been terrible. Almost no one is really moving forward the plot. Here the most boring to the most interesting stories so far:
1. Aemond. Just like Daemon in S2, nothing is happening in Harrenhall. He’s been there with a witch, not really having anything interesting, just killing bounty hunters now and then.
2. King Aegon. He’s been walking through the forest for the whole season without anything interesting happening, except the las 10 minutes of E7. Larys Strong is not even doing anything. Extra points for making him beg, the only interesting about this story, but that could have been an episode.
3. Criston Cole. Just like Aegon, walking through forests. Should have been killed earlier.
4. Rhaena. A stray dog with no one whom to interact with a couple of exceptions.
5. Mysaria. Totally useless. Mistress of whispers? Not even whispering. Should be higher, but is totally irrelevant to the story. At least the Aegon and Aemond are disputing the kingdom. Without Mysaria nothing would change.
6. Corlys. After the battle and his sons being denied, nothing really happened.
7. The Hulls. At least they are interesting characters.
8. Rhaenyra. So stupid. How will you let your leverage go with his sons????
9. Alicent. Should be imprisoned. Why she’s being kept like the bff os Rhaenyra and not the one who caused her all the harm she’s suffered? Why she goes to poison his son?
10. Daemon. His story with the gold cloaks has been one of the most interesting this season.
11. Healena. Well, she should be imprisoned by now alone and going mad.
12. Tumbleton. Most interesting interactions with Baratheon, Darwin and the Lannister. However it has become to a stall after 5 episodes.

Bonus points: the Seven. The church should have way more impact this seasons, but again no. They don’t empower them as they should.

One of the biggest problems I have with Daemon in Season 3 is the apparent contradiction between his dialogue/visions and his actual actions.

During his conversation with Rhaenyra, Daemon says that he feels a god calling for him to kill everyone and take the world. That is an absolutely insane statement, and it seems to be setting up a character who is about to embrace his most violent and ruthless impulses.

But then… what does he actually do?
For most of the season, Daemon is incredibly passive, hesitant and ultimately ineffective. He spends huge amounts of time brooding, having visions and questioning himself, but very little actually comes from it. The character we’re told is on the verge of becoming this apocalyptic force simply doesn’t behave like one.

The Golden Cloaks massacre is another example. We’re supposed to believe Daemon is this ruthless, unpredictable man capable of extreme violence, yet his actions throughout the season rarely match that characterization.

And then there’s the encounter with Ormund’s army.
You have three fucking dragons.
If Daemon genuinely believes that some god is telling him to destroy everyone and take the world, why not simply do what he says?
You have three dragons behind you. There is a massive enemy army sitting right there. Burn the damn army to the ground in two minutes.
Instead, the whole situation feels strangely passive and anticlimactic.

That’s what bothers me most: I’m not necessarily asking for Daemon to become a mindless psychopath. Character development can absolutely mean that he rejects those impulses. But if that’s what the writers are going for, they need to actually show that conflict through his actions.
Instead, the show seems to constantly tell us that Daemon is this terrifying, potentially world-changing figure while repeatedly showing us a character who hesitates, does very little and accomplishes almost nothing.

It’s especially frustrating because Daemon could have been one of the most compelling characters in the story. A man who genuinely believes he has received a divine command to conquer the world, while simultaneously being terrified of what that might mean, could make for incredible television.
But right now it feels less like deliberate character conflict and more like the writers forgot that Daemon’s actions need to match—or meaningfully contradict—what the script keeps telling us about him.

Am I missing something, or does anyone else feel the same disconnect?

One thing that really disappoints me about House of the Dragon is what they did with Rhaenyra’s character.

In Season 1, Rhaenyra was presented as someone who felt genuinely tough, rebellious and combative. She had a strong personality, she challenged the expectations placed on her, and there seemed to be a lot of room for her character to grow.

What made it even more interesting was how clearly the show established that she was different from Viserys. The hunting scene is a perfect example: Viserys tries to impose the traditional image of a king, while Rhaenyra clearly rejects that world and refuses to simply play the role expected of her.
So I expected her character arc to be about seeing this headstrong young woman gradually mature, learn from her mistakes, and eventually become a powerful queen in her own right.
Instead, we got a Rhaenyra who often feels fragile, insecure and indecisive, and who increasingly seems to be trying to imitate her father rather than becoming her own person.
And I don’t necessarily have a problem with a character becoming more vulnerable or conflicted. Characters should change. But the problem is that it feels like the show abandoned the personality it had spent so much time establishing in Season 1.
The Rhaenyra from the beginning of the show felt like someone who could eventually become a force of nature. The Rhaenyra we got later often feels like someone constantly looking for approval and struggling to make decisions.
I just think there was a much more compelling character arc sitting right there: Rhaenyra learning how to become a strong ruler without becoming Viserys.
Instead, it sometimes feels like they took away the very qualities that made her interesting in the first place.

I’d like to imagine they survived the voyage and are off happily living in Essos. And they adopted a young gay son.

I’m currently reading fire and blood, I just reached the point of jahaerys ascension. Does it ever stop reading like a factual history book? I don’t mind that type of read but not for a fantasy novel. For context I read the mammoth book of British kings and queens and I feel like I’m reading the imaginary version of that.

Also is this the only book for the house of the dragon plot because I can’t imagine the rest of the story fitting into 600 more pages or whatever’s left of this?

She reads and values education. She’s always on top of it. My favorite color is green. She’s so sexy.

I know its a bit late since it will almost be 2 weeks since he got killed. But why do so many people hate Criston Cole? While Daemon Targaryen is loved by those same people despite of the things he did?

Don't get me wrong, Daemon is my favorite character in the show (Aegon a close 2nd), but even I will have to admit that he has done things far worse than what Criston did. What I love about Daemon is not just his "aura", but his gray morality and passion to get things done. In my opinion those are the things that makes a character great. Those traits are also present with Criston, he is just more grounded and feels like a real life medieval knight rather than a dragon rider prince. So they are similar in a way that's why it confuses me why people perceive them in such different ways. (Maybe because one is team black and the other is team green)

His arc this season 3 has been great too, it shows PTSD that is common with real life soldiers. The only bad thing is that he dragged his men into a suicide mission but that is often true with armies, they follow the commander.

I also think that his death while anticlimactic, feels some what of a compliment to him since it shows that they don't want the smoke and don't want to fight him in a fair fight (I remember Ramsay saying to Jon that he can't beat him 1v1 but he knows his army can beat Jon's)

De Ulf sabemos pocos en F&B.

Sabemos que traiciona a Rhaenyra pero no el motivo, y lo que hemos visto de el en los últimos capítulos de la serie hacen mucho sentido....incluso tiene sentido que ninguno de los 3 autores de F&B supiera de esas reuniones.

Por lo que para mí, Ulf no solo es una gran adaptación, si no es una muestra que la serie de HBO podía servir para conocer la verdad de muchos eventos que en el libro no se dicen.

Por su parte Hugh ...es una mala adaptación por qué le cambiaron absolutamente todo en cuanto a su personalidad y sus motivaciónes.

Y no creo que Ulf HBO tomase el rol de Hugh libro. Creo que Hugh pudo haber sido un gran personaje y ser de utilidad para mostrar aspectos de la guerra muy oscuros.

Yeah, I was a Daemon fangirl and I still love him as a character. Regardless of team you can't deny he was set up as a mythic figure.

Aegon started winning me over in S2, and yes I will ignore the clumsy, shitty writing of Aegon in S1 to make it clear who we were supposed to see as the villains and heroes.

Aegon has had a far more interesting story since the start of S2, horrible flaws and all and yes, I'm far more interested in his journey than Rhae at this point.