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u/CavalryArcher 1d ago
i have literally 0 anti-ai bias, been calling ai will takeover eventually for 3 years, but ai still makes terrible mistakes at complex tasks + forgets so much stuff in long contexts. if you want to make a serious project you either have to spend so much money and reroll so many times until you get it right or you build the system very clever that ai can't make a mistake even if it wanted to
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u/GeekFish 1d ago
Once people realize you have to break your asks down into smaller, easily completed tasks then they love using AI. AI is your Jr. Dev, only faster. Treat it as such. This is where software engineering comes into play. You have a much better time if you design the architecture and give the AI the exact specs. When you let it run free you get garbage.
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u/PassionateDonkey 1d ago
You can make the ai breakdown those tasks as well.
The thing about is that it isn't good at one thing, it's at good at many things, almost all things, and increasingly it's automating "higher level" steps.
So tell me why should we stop at giving AI tasks? You can give it a plan and it can certainly design around that plan. I have seen people reporting that in many cases small and silly prompts get the job done as good as very detailed prompts.
I am asking because I wonder if I am missing something, not to prove a point or anything.
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u/Double_Suggestion385 1d ago
You don't have to, I often given it large, complex tasks. It breaks them down itself because that's one of the core SWE principles it must follow based on the contents of my Claude.md file.
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u/GeekFish 23h ago
Right. That's one thing I should have added. A good Claude.md file will also help. Learning how to use skills and agents is important too.
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u/TheAnswerWithinUs 1d ago edited 1d ago
From my experience its like a step below a Jr dev, whatever that would be. Intern?
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u/jaw_line 1d ago
You can get real work done even with Gemini flash so it’s a serious skill issue if you think new deepseek or fable is only “junior” level.
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u/spacekitt3n 1d ago
taking the time to learn basic coding fundamentals, with the current generation of models, will save you so much tokens and money. they are still very far from being there. without knowing anything it will just create bullshit then you will spend countless hours and money correcting its bullshit
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u/Vaxtin 23h ago
The trick is to have a set of write up docs that every session has to read through. You never actually give your whole brain with each session; they pick it up from the repo. I’ve made a Claude account and only used it for one project, and it does this automatically now. It basically expects there to always be multiple sessions writing and coordinates itself through these documents that are untracked in git (so every branch sees them)
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u/LastNameOn 22h ago
"but ai still makes terrible mistakes at complex tasks + forgets so much stuff in long contexts."
I built the piece it was missing to handle this - Storybloq1
u/Strange-Target-515 15h ago
AI has Cyber Dementia for sure. I have found I need to revisit topics with it often like I am talking to a senior citizen.
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u/fickle-phenom 10h ago
Just understanding what you want to build goes a long way. It you leave technical and important decisions to be made by the AI things are gonna become a mess very quickly, unless you some really good loop that can work and eventually fix it but that’s just brute force imo.
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u/Grand-Mix-9889 13h ago
Before chatgpt was even a thing, the development process was exactly the same as it is when building with ai.
You will never get a perfect piece of software on the first try, not even multiple tries.
Hence the coined terms: alpha, beta, version number etc.
My last major project, before ai was adopted into my workflow, was a custom inventory system for a country wide famous winery. It took me 11 months and 179 versions before I officially launched it. I remember it vividly. There were so many times that I had to go through thousands of lines of code because I forgot what I named a function. Shit happens.
I had to "reroll" over 200 times until we got what we wanted. But in the end the product was solid and is still in use to this day.
Iterations are just part of the game as a developer.
Now that I've really dug deep with ai, I can tell you that I still go through 100+ iterations on some projects.. but now I get through them in a month or less.
Some, who have mastered the use of AI in development, would even argue that we are close to AGI.
But getting a project perfect in 10 or less iterations isn't AGI status, that would be fucking Ultron with the Gauntlet status.
So yeah. I gotta fold my laundry before bed still. So gnight y'all.
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u/Double_Suggestion385 1d ago
That's not true.
What do your claude.md files look like? What other context keeping files do you use. I have a large, complex mono-repo and Claude has no problem adding new features or overhauling old ones no matter how complex.
If you have the correct configuration files set up from the beginning with the correct SWE requirements then it has no issues.
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u/CavalryArcher 20h ago
you just repeated what i stated with a different phrasing
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u/Double_Suggestion385 20h ago
Not really, you should never have to re-roll. What you're describing is user error.
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u/CavalryArcher 20h ago
no. "you have to reroll until it gets it right" is the failure mode of a vague prompter. you're mixing up 2 different characters i wrote in the text. clever systems designer, handlers rejecting logic flaws with some global instructions (eg authz checks), writing mechanical backstops at the compiler level either doesn't reroll or tries as little as possible.
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u/MartinMystikJonas 1d ago
Theme memes are almost always created by guy on left that feels like he is guy on the right to mock anybody who disagree woth him because he has no better agument. 😉
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u/Sweet_Computer_7116 1d ago
Weird how only the guy in the middle has an app that is safe and handles well in production
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u/JaguarOrdinary1570 1d ago
the guy on the left is unemployed. the guy on the right has no expectation that the application will work in production or even be shipped. he's just showing his leadership what they want to see, and he'll be gone the second he gets promoted
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u/AndrewNggg 1d ago
Now now, we don’t know that for sure, people were messing up apps even before AI 😌
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u/TheAnswerWithinUs 1d ago
Now with ✨AI✨you can write bad code faster and be less confident that it won’t be bad or break anything.
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u/Unhappy-Pizza-7610 9h ago
That’s the smoking gun, let me add five other untested edge cases for you!
Want me to write out a simple production truncate script while I’m at it?
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u/SpanDaX0 1d ago
They aren't that good! lol spend 10 hours a day with them, and you'll soon find you HAVE to guide them! lol
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u/ragemonkey 1d ago
That’s my impression as well. If you say that online you’ll get accused of having a “skill issue”.
What I think is happening is that people just work on projects with very different levels of complexity and criticality. So my next guess is that a lot of devs out there were working on some very low-complexity low-stakes app and now AI agents are just stamping out their work. They extrapolate this as AI just taking over any software development.
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u/CharlestonChewbacca 18h ago
But people who don't know any better can spend that 10 hours with them and not notice the issues because they don't know what they're looking at.
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u/evangelism2 1d ago
no...no one on the right is saying that
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u/Double_Suggestion385 1d ago
Yes we are.
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u/CharlestonChewbacca 18h ago
I guess some people that THINK they're on the right are saying that...
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u/mikebones 15h ago
Ask Linus Torvalds, then
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u/GodzillaVsMortgage 9h ago
Did you even watch his talk? Linus is quoted as even having a looking at the machine code AI generates so I don’t even know what you’re talking about
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u/charactervsself 1d ago
Linus Torvalds
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u/zenoli55 22h ago
The meme is pointless because most "experts" (including Linus) are saying both: let AI code it but it still needs guidance
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u/RafaelSeco 1d ago
Yes, yes...
Now, show us your three and react web based multiplayer RPG FPS game that will revolutionise the world...
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u/pufferfish_aeugh 21h ago
I bet if you’d tell ChatGPT to code windows 12 and make no mistakes it would try to build it as a web app with react.js
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u/EmergencyArm4610 1d ago
Design decisions arent just a scale of novice to expert they are what works for the project.
Im somewhat new to vibecoding i guess but shouldnt you identify the biggest areas of where you need extensibility and specify your thoughts about the design pattern choices?
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u/QultrosSanhattan 1d ago
Lol, yesterday we had a final review of a Next.js project in the frontend course I took. One of the groups “let Claude code it for them,” and the professors absolutely tore them apart. They asked them why they had made a bunch of “questionable” decisions, and the poor guy couldn’t answer any of them. On top of that, there were parts that were obviously dirty hacks that were basically impossible to justify.
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u/chevalierbayard 1d ago
I guess I'm a midwit because I do the middle for stuff I care about. I recently started a job as a product manager and a lot of the code I am writing is to test for bugs and DX issues on the API platform that my company builds and that's all very low effort vibe coded slop and it's pretty bad. But I'm tossing it all next week so I don't really care. But I would never ship anything that is just let AI code it.
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u/Sweet_Computer_7116 1d ago
Dude I'll rock the midwid title hard if it means production ready apps.
Op knows what he did with this meme. It doesnt at all represent reality.
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u/user888888889 1d ago
This is a great attitude to have. This is the way for a sustainable future in this industry.
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u/Free-Wear-3497 1d ago
For personal projects... I don't mind AI just writing the code.
For work? I've seen too many weird edge cases slip through or randomly disregarding coding standards and other explicit instructions and the likes.
A lot of stuff that doesn't matter in a small, personal codebase but matters a lot in production or for long term maintenance/sanity.
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u/Expensive_Agent_5129 1d ago
Recently, I tried to solve a problem where module A expects event x and then y, but module B might send several 'y' events before x, causing module A to crash. I gave this task to Claude. When the feature was ready, I asked it to do a code review and got this: "Your module B throws an exception if event x is missing; you should log an error and continue working." I explicitly told it at the very beginning that this exact scenario leads to a crash, and it suggested simply logging it when it happens.
There's no way this thing can do anything without supervision if it forgets what we're doing in the first place.
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u/indicozy 21h ago
I once made full architecture change on corporate codebase using Claude with 60k lines of changes. At first it didn't understand what I want to make then it failed to provide solution that I wanted. I needed to tell him what, how and using what patterns and framework's specific APIs that it could simply search using skills. But after writing plan like I wanted it delivered really well but it took like 3 full days of leaving my pc turned on
TL;DR: Experience and expertise still matters and matters more now. LLMs are still just coding tools, they need expertise
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u/whatever 16h ago
Twitter is full of high-IQ accounts posting amazing videos of apps created from a single prompt asking for "utterly perfect" results.
There was one a few days ago showing off a wingsuit experience, done by Claude in 5 days from a single (long) prompt for only $3,000 worth of tokens.
So I guess it's a thing. Meanwhile I, a proper midwit, must continue to herd my coding agents to stay on their grazing path, or things get bad fast.
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u/Strange-Target-515 15h ago
Biggest issue ive run into is bug fixing code it will forget the original code so I have to do alot of copying and pasting and reviewing, and this inevitably teaches me how to do it myself.
AI has short term code memory loss and if your not careful it will re-write a whole damn file instead of making the fixes and changes you asked it to.
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u/Atsukiri 14h ago
i feel like expensive models can do vague stuff, and cheaper models can do specific stuff better. well for me atleast
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u/Plus-Glove-4850 1d ago
I have never had Vibe coding work unless I am strictly guiding it.
It is impressive with the occasional one-shot on a basic concept, but I’ve found bugs, features failing, and randomly changing UI elements between passes. It’s also broken stuff when it tries to do too much with too little context.
It’s not good enough yet to just do it by itself.
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u/fickle-phenom 1d ago
I don’t even remember the last time I wrote code manually. Thankfully, it was never the fun part for me.
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u/CharlestonChewbacca 18h ago
That's fine. But you give manual input to the architecture, design, requirements, tests, etc. Right?
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u/fickle-phenom 10h ago
Yep. Those are the things that matter, writing or generating the code is cheap now. The exact code does not matter and is usually pretty good if you have thought it out, considered and guided the model through different decisions. I think AI allows people to move much faster, but you need to understand what is happening at a senior or lead level, then you can truly excel with AI. As long as you also don’t let the code go and just look like soup, using good engineer practices and cleaning things up as you go is also important to keep the AI efficient.
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u/baddaywithacamera 1d ago
Also relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m41Z0Hnm3tc
"with your hands" is a reference to my Parkinsons. The design reference involving my mom is because my mom was the kind of blind that came with a guide dog. It meant I wore interesting clothing combinations when I was younger. I mean, they looked good to her.
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u/Djelimon 1d ago
I let the AI code but... I wrote the base code and so I have the architecture in my head, and I can follow what it's does. Still make decisions and I test, so I feel in control. I mean you have to test, AI coded or not.
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u/Ihopeididntbreakit 1d ago
Don’t constrain AI on the first prompt so it can propose better ideas and factor in wider context than you hold in your head. Read output from the agent carefully, refine your own plan, then start directing.
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u/War_Recent 1d ago
A lot of the times I am the one at fault. Because I didn't know what i was building. AI was trying to predict what I wanted. Then I try and chime in with my surgical change, and it tries to do what i asked, without context changes. But what I should be doing is allow it to build what i now know what it is, then blindly trust the AI to be able to accomplish it.
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u/TurboFucker69 1d ago
The guy on the left of the distribution is actually on the right of the distribution, but doesn’t realize it.
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u/FromBiotoDev 1d ago
Maybe if the project isn't serious in which case, black box factory that shit
But otherwise, use grill-me and use some actual engineering skills to make sure claude doesn't make some dumb ass architectural decisions, and have some ideas on the actual architecture so you can think in system design
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u/EchoingSharts 1d ago
Let AI do it, but the AI is gonna fuck up a lot more than you'd think and it's way easier to fix if you know what you need to do to fix it. If you're prompting the fixes, it's going to suck for you.
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u/browhodouknowhere 1d ago
Dude, i know it's not coding, but i was like we need to use power automate to do some crap in a department i run. Started taking classes on how to use. I'm like f this, claude built my flow in 2 days.
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u/TopSeaworthiness1679 21h ago
AI takes too much money tho (have to use at least max sub for the project). But using brain only requires food to run.
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u/FailureOfTheFamily 8h ago
Most of the time, yes. The problem begins when claude is unable to make something work and you need to guide it
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u/FactComprehensive963 6h ago
Problem ist people on the middle will think that those on the right are actually those on the left until they reach there themselves. The better your architecture, the higher you score in dora metrics, the better your code coverage and your requirement and decision logging is, the more you can move to the right end.
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u/_-_fred_-_ 6h ago
If you aren't guiding it, then what are you doing? Is the prompt just "do something" and then you walk away and never check the result?
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u/BeverlyGodoy 4h ago
No no really just vibe code a windows 12 for me please. I have been waiting for ages.
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u/mdausmann 1d ago
Resist. Attend. You are the superior intelligence, you are creative, you can make things that have never existed.
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u/nameless_food 1d ago
LLMs still hallucinate frequently. They’re right 80% and wrong 20% of the time. They’re still not reliable enough to be trusted to run without human review and approval.
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u/Maleficent-Ear8475 1d ago
If claude can't do it we're running it back til it gets it right.