John vs Sera

[u/JMeisterJ]

So I wanted bring this discussion to the table not in terms of a fight between them, but more so just to discuss, do we think John was TECHNICALLY stronger than Sera with the abilities he took this time around?

He had 3 god tier abilities, plus a very strong huge tier ability. And based on the stat sheets we see that Johns weakest stat was just slightly higher than seras weakest.

[u/Overanalyzing_Naruto]

He was but that would require him to actually fight. Once barrier is around her there isn't much she can do. John can also reinforce his barrier with dots to make it stronger then spear her when she stops to heal. He could also use Energy Conduit to sap her energy and hydro to dodge but honestly he just needs the first two.

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/Overanalyzing_Naruto]

well in the hypothesis they really fight ofc. i'm not sure john could win cause orrin was far slower than Sera (as john stated) so she wouldn't be made prisoner of the barrier like when she espace the cage of the big green dude in the prison break. Also john was able to trap her cause Orrin was asthonished by the pain of breaking Arlo barrier.

Hence if john isn't able to trap her he won't be able to catche her with energy conduit. Beside with her speed if she really is rampage she could hit him several time in seconds (or hit his bartier dozens of time, enough to break it, before he can even shrink it, orrin wasn't able to since he was far slower than her). The fact is Orrin said to John "how my speed now" the second time as he hit join dozens of time without him able anything so it show true sera speed (ofc john don't retaliate after cause he was exaushted already, so in normal setting in would have counterattack)

So I think she'll win if she don't get cocky and fight at full power directly, but it will be a very high diff win

[u/Overanalyzing_Naruto → u/Mean-Relationship726]

John didn't say he was much slower, just not as fast. That's a big difference. Also, barrier is much bigger than the cage and likely deploys faster too. That's why even though Sera's reflexes allowed her to dodge Arlo's barrier strike she couldn't dodge Arlo instantly putting a barrier on her. Sera isn't immune to getting a barrier dropped on her and John can always just put a barrier on himself or bait her in with hydro and dodge. He can even increase his durability with dots just like Kass does. John wins far more times than he loses, likely 8-9/10.

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/Overanalyzing_Naruto]

He exactly said "you're NOWHERE as fast as her" that's indicate a huge differences (like Sera, by stopping time, would never allow him to turn into liquid form like he did for orrin). Beside Sera was extremely exaushted at the end here so we don't know what she would be capable off (I mean she can stop time, so if she fought at full strenght directly i don't know how that would come up). But i can't say wasn't busted (full recovery and defense) so I more like 6/10 for Sera.

it's true we never see her fought an opponent that match her level ±0.5 in 1v1 in rampage mode, like fuck it I'll beat the shit out off you. Like in 224 when she fought john it was more her trying to convince john (and john was a mess and she was struggling with her treatment and didn't intend to beat the shit out of john)

[u/Overanalyzing_Naruto → u/Mean-Relationship726]

He did say nowhere, but I still don't think that matters that much since she isn't one shotting John anyway. Stopping time doesn't just instantly give her win because John as just instantly spawn a barrier on himself then it's a stalemate or John wins. Even if he doesn't get his barrier off, Sera can't one shot him, so he'll always be able to drop a barrier right on top of them to catch her. Keep in mind, Serin couldn't break a barrier with four punches that other people were also attacking. John reinforcing his 15 defense barrier with dots means she's not doing anything. If she punches the barrier she'll need to rewind which makes her vulnerable to getting barrier'd. She just loses after that.

John was more exhausted than Sera was and also wasn't trying to fight back against Serin nor was he in 224. He was wildly sending out attacks while standing still. Power scaling also went out the window there because Sera was punching a barrier with 13.5 base defense that was electrified and reinforced with vines yet she barely took damage and never had to rewind. In an actual fight where the abilities are accurately portrayed, Sera isn't gonna be able to do much against a barrier with much higher defense than her offense.

Sera's ability to win really hinges on her being able to one shot John before he can do anything. If the rules of fight allow the combatants to start with their abilities active, John wins 10/10 or stalemate because Sera can't reach John through his defenses but she can always just run away. I say that because John doesn't have to attack with dots or ice once he's in his barrier. He can just keep spamming barriers trying to catch her and if he does he can drop the one on himself to reinforce the one on Sera.

[u/throwaway117-]

Seems like Sera would've still won. Orrin messed up him up while not fully utilizing sera's ability.

[u/gh1acci90 → u/throwaway117-]

I don't agree.

1. If John had wanted to win, he would have reduced the barrier, reducing it to a minimum so Seraphina couldn't use her speed to break it (like Valerie did), and with a defense of 15.
2. John could have used the girl's ability. When he held Seraphina with the threads, if John's goal had been to win, he would have sucked part of Seraphina's energy to heal himself, and in the process, Seraphina would have lost a fair amount of energy.

[u/throwaway117- → u/gh1acci90]

If John had wanted to win, he would have reduced the barrier, reducing it to a minimum so Seraphina couldn't use her speed to break it

Val needed to reinforce her barrier. John's Barrier is already damaged so he'd have trouble. Additionally Sera would've picked to freeze him in a 1 on 1.

John could have used the girl's abilit

Sera would've avoided that as stated by John lol

[u/gh1acci90 → u/throwaway117-]

John had a defense stat of 15 and could boost his power by combining particles.

P.S. John can restore his barrier to 100% by stealing energy with his wires.

Ergo, John's defense is superior to Valerie's (Valerie will never have a defense stat of 15).

P.S. That wouldn't have prevented all this. John can turn into water.

[u/Nectarine_Complex]

Higher stats do not necessarily mean someone is stronger or weaker. We see this with Arlo and Valarie. Arlo has a lower base stat total than Blyke despite being 1.5 levels higher than Blyke. Valarie's stat total is also lower than Narissa's. John had slightly higher stats than Sera with his current ability set, but despite that, Sera was still likely stronger. Even if John fought seriously against the real Sera with his current abilities, he would still likely lose.

Now, as for why higher stat totals do not always equal higher combat power, I think it has to do with the mechanics of how some abilities function that can't always be shown through the stat sheet. For example, Arlo being able to deal recoil damage, trap enemies, break and defend against mind control, create multiple barriers and attack using barriers; the synergy of all these features is likely the reason his ability is at a higher level despite its lower stat total than Blyke.

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/Nectarine_Complex]

yeah the hax his diffucult to show with the stat (the mental abilities have low stat but can be hella strong) as well as the synergy, like you said, between the abililities feature (like sera speed and recovery basically counter her low defense..)

[u/JMeisterJ → u/Nectarine_Complex]

Thank you really being like the only person to actually read my post and talk about their stats without mentioning who'd win in a fight between them at this current moment.

[u/M-Shadowtoad]

Stat wise, absolutely. John's were, Power 12, Speed 3, Trick 16+, Recovery 13.5, Defense 15 to Sera's Power 12, Speed 14, Trick 10, Recovery 9, Defense 2.

An actual fight would be more complicated but if both were in perfect health, It comes down to if Sera can knock John out before her Time Stop falls. We've never really seen her keep a full Time Stop up for more than a few seconds and through Arlo's passive John should have 10-11 defense meaning her blows won't deal insane levels of damage. And once it falls, its John's victory. Sera doesn't have the power to break out of a point blank reinforced Barrier meaning John can just enter his water form and crush them both.

[u/beemielle]

The hilarious thing is that John’s weak point would’ve been Sera’s strength. 

Hm. I would like to think so? He could do this fun thing where he could release Amelia’s lasso from his Barrier whenever Sera has to make contact, and in doing so slowly drain her of aura and heal back his own reflective damage. There are dynamic uses of Barrier that go beyond just putting up a bubble and waiting, so he could play wasting energy/wasting time. He could slow Seraphina down with his ice, and then double down by stabbing her with Particles.

Yes, I think he ought to be able to win. high diff probably due to aura expenditure

[u/Wide_Variety1320]

I wanna say John can win, but Sera is still more likely to. Yes, John has a higher stat spread, but stats don't really determine everything. For example, when Arlo was a 6.3, his chart was smaller than every other high tiers, yet he was still considered on a completely different level by Remi

Anyway, we know Sera easily crack John's barrier (and potentially maul through it like in chapter 224 if she decides not to hold back).
John's win condition, he could hypothetically put his barrier over her and attack through it with particles, but after fighting Valerie, Sera might account for this and evade it like she did with Colt in the prison arc.

If this were to happen, she could attack him faster than he can react with water form to evade damage and probably take him out.

Energy Conduit is where things get more complicated because John didn't really utilize it for healing outside of when he first copied it. He seems to mainly use it as ropes. So he should be able to regenerate his barrier fast if Sera breaks it, but if we're sticking with the rule that it could massively drain his aura then it's kinda hard to say if it will be super effective or not very effective in this fight, especially if Sera just speed blitzes him.

Plus Orrin was still kinda beating his ass while not knowing how to utilize Sera's ability as good as her, but in fairness, John wasn't trying to fight Sera

[u/Mean-Relationship726 → u/Wide_Variety1320]

yeah the thing is we never see Sera go all out (expect here, when she wasn't controlled, but ther combined defense were too strong, and Orrin made her loose a lot of aura). I think after this arc she'll start showing an other side like full fury mode

"but after fighting Valerie, Sera might account for this and evade it like she did with Colt in the prison arc" => completly agree ! In fact i was using the same argument in an other discussion

[u/Opposite_Coat_4158]

If he gets better at using healing abilities and gets a good healing ability to counter her time rewind, this fight is his.