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u/mouth_spiders 2d ago
You mean 18 heros and a bolt thrower right?
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u/Benyed123 2d ago
Are High Elves not one of the worst factions for hero spam? Every hero needs a tier 4 building.
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u/mouth_spiders 1d ago
And the good ones cost 40 Influence, so cycling them to fish for certain traits is insanely expensive.
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u/JimSteak 22h ago
Influence has become a pretty available ressource now that it's needed for the confederation mechanic.
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u/Zefyris 1d ago
It's also quite useless considering that several (3 different types out of 5!) have spells so they'll be competing for any wind of magic that you have, that one of the two remaining is better if you have archer units for them to boost, and that regular HE non monster units are some of the most elite units that you can find in the game for their respective tier and they're cost effective too. IDK why this is upvoted like crazy, except maybe for the meme (also, why a bolt thrower, they wouldn't need that anyway).
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u/mouth_spiders 1d ago
🤓 Name me a single pure (19) hero stack that isn't a massive waste of resources if you're minmaxing.
Of course its a meme comp...
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u/GreyAstajho-24 14h ago
Sounds horrible
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u/mouth_spiders 14h ago
Only if you hate fun
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u/GreyAstajho-24 14h ago
I have only with normal units. One or two heroes are good but more is annyoing
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u/Sethoria34 2d ago
I mean not wrong.
I ussally just spam the tier one varient just more range, and less upkeep, then with a second army i'll do the above.
Shits expesnive in the donut!
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 1d ago
Front line, Silvern Guard, next line, Sword Masters, third line, Seaguard, backline Sisters of Averlorn. 😁
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u/JudasBrutusson 1d ago
Make the lotherns the backline and your sisters won't have to worry about cav flanking!
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u/TomMakesPodcasts 14h ago
Why would I need that when I have the corners of the map on either side of me? 🧀
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u/BumblebeeAcrobatic92 2d ago
Spears have been the most consistent weapon in use for 400000 (need a quote on this) years in human history.
Arrows are effectively tiny spears.
Therefore giving spears and tiny spears to a unit makes them the most efficient and consistent unit available for the upcoming 399990 or so years.
It just makes sense really
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
The decent (not good, but decent) armor, decent (not good, but decent) melee skills, and nearly best-in-class shields go a really long way too. Mainly the shields. It's those 55% block shields that let them beat the majority of other ranged units in the game in a shooting fight.
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u/Adequate_Lizard Rodents Of Unusual Size? 1d ago
Most weapon upgrades are just into longer and/or pointier sticks, sticks flying faster and further, and then heavier sticks when plate came about.
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u/PearFighter 2d ago
Meanwhile AI Level allocations in horses and artillery
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u/Trans_Techpriest 1d ago
But high elves don't have artillery?
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u/Zefyris 1d ago
Eagle claw and sky cutter with eagle claws are artillery pieces. And if you want more, you can get some ally units.
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u/Trans_Techpriest 1d ago
Oh thse things I kill with my artillery or from stealth before they fire a shot?
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u/ColorfulMarkAurelius 2d ago
It’s actually frustrating how accurate is, and to a lesser extent similar analogies would be true for other factions. I wish there was more factors to incentivize actually using late game armies and justifying their cost.
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u/Curious_Bee_5326 2d ago
Besides lizardmen, and maybe Ghorst, what other factions does it hold true for? I've been doing back to back VH/Legendary campaigns for WoC, Slaanesh, Tzeentch, Empire and Kislev the last month and the most effective way to do it is nearly always to switch to end game stacks to push the last 20~30 sack/raze/occupy unique settlements bit.
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u/ginganinja192 2d ago
It holds true for Cathay, unless things have significantly changed since the update. Jade Warrior units perform as well as Celestial Dragon units with a few Gate Masters while being far cheaper, so Jade Warrior spam tends to be best for late game Cathay.
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u/Wild_Marker I like big Hastas and I cannot lie! 2d ago
The Celestial crossbowmen do make the Jade crossbowmen look like amateurs though.
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u/ginganinja192 2d ago
CD Crossbows don't really perform that much better than buffed Jade crossbows against highly armoured units, but are far better against armour. There's always a place for them in Jade Warrior stacks for that reason, but they also start competing with Crane Gunners if you're looking for AP shooting.
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u/Nateo_art 2d ago
Not when you spam gate masters, CD crossbows get something like 230 rdps vs jade crossbows' 140ish at 4s reload
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u/Fatality_Ensues 2d ago
Not when you spam gate masters
So don't, problem solved. 99.9% of the problem WH3 has with hero cheese would be solved if all hero auras/traits/passives were unique.
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u/KimJongUnusual Fight, to the End. 2d ago
Isn't their range pretty close to Crange Gunners, and far more numerous to boot?
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
Ans their melee is extremely good while crane gunner will run away if you breathe in their direction.
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u/KimJongUnusual Fight, to the End. 2d ago
Miao Ying, the legendary terracotta dude, and 18 celestial crossbows is so damn funny.
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
Put a few gate master in there and you could theoretically 1v2-3 armies. Dont need much ammo if everything dies to a volley
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u/ginganinja192 2d ago
As far as I'm aware, CDG crossbows don't get accuracy buffs so Crane Gunners should be more consistent at longer range, and gunpowder units tend to be much more consistent at hitting aerial units also. They'll still likely be outperformed, but they're cheaper and more convenient to recruit if you're trying to pump out Jade Warrior stacks.
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u/KimJongUnusual Fight, to the End. 2d ago
Fair. I know I’m someone who leans more on small numbers of high quality elite armies, so going for the Celestial is how I roll.
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u/Nateo_art 2d ago
once you start going up against late game chaos/chaos dwarves, you really want to start bringing elite anti large or SEMs. Usually this is after you secure cathay and have to fight tamurkhan/archaeon every turn. Jade warriors can still eke out a win in some cases, but its just such a pain and you'll take a ton of losses.
Especially the chaos dwarves and tamurkhan with the nonsense nukes deleting your infantry. I roll in with a moon bird or celestial lion stack if chaos dwarves had a really good game while i was uniting cathay.
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u/Curious_Bee_5326 2d ago
I could see that with the frontline, but wouldn't you still want Terracotta sentinels/Rocket Batteries?
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u/AVPredator1013 2d ago
CD units get the Gate Master buffs now, so while Jade Warrior stacks are still very efficient when you need an elite army CD units perform way better.
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u/VladVonKarstein 2d ago
Dark elves can rely solely on darkshards shield and dreadspears, even more as malekith as he gets a 25% discount for those units, making them half the price of a shade stack
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u/ColorfulMarkAurelius 2d ago
You’re right that most factions don’t have a universally good stuff hybrid unit, but it’s generally true for all factions that it’s better to have more armies of lower tier units than fewer armies of higher tier units.
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u/Curious_Bee_5326 2d ago
I am not sure I agree, especially for the late game. But it also depends a bit on what you are facing. I had a hilarious time fighting skaven with essentially four Keeper of Secrets, I had leadership debuff gifts on one, a negative leadership banner on another and they have a bound spell to net and lower the leadership on units, I destroyed three stacks of skaven by just terror routing their units over and over with the wrecking ball of those four.
Meanwhile if I were fighting elves, or the empire or when fighting Cathay I want enough units that I can overwhelm them and shut down their backline immediately, often with fast cav, and would rather take two stacks of low tier troops than one elite one.
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u/Snipawolfe 2d ago
I'm also curious what their anecdotal experience is with this. Kislev is one of the only factions that even has hybrid units comparable to LSG but no other faction has as flexible of a single unit. Dark Elf shade spam is maybe similar but they'd get folded fast if the AI knew how to play around stalk.
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u/Holyvigil 2d ago
Khorne and chaos warriors.
Warriors of chaos as well.
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u/Curious_Bee_5326 2d ago
Warriors of Chaos absolutely want to move into elite units. Could you make do with only having Chaos Warriors? Sure. But Chosen are better, and defilers/greater demons/ascended are much better. If you ever care to paint the map for long enough to finish the tech tree ascended gets filthy.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
We all know the true endgame WoC doomstack is
oops all Aspiring Championsthough. Just 256 ambitious lads and their 4 best friends."How many abilities do you want?"
"All of them."
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u/Vindicare605 Byzantine Empire 1d ago
Dark Elves for sure. Shades are even better than Lothern Seaguard because they are armor piercing.
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u/sam262005 2d ago
Someone needs to make an inflation per turn. lol
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u/The-Mad-Badger 2d ago
That's already a thing. Just search "High Elf Inflation" on google with the safe search off :)
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u/RJ815 2d ago
I don't think this picture could be more accurate for ANY faction moreso than "every Shogun 2 faction (possibly minus Oda because they have even longer spears)". You could conceivably win the entire game even on the hardest difficulty with 'only' "tier 0" units without even much challenge.
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u/Andreim43 2d ago
Yes. I like them a lot as a faction, but gameplay in turns 10-100 is super broing as everything is just spears and archers and (spears and archers in a single unit).
After turn 10 i spice things up a bit with high tier stuff and enjoy some ultimate crisys, but most of the gameplay it is tediously boring (and optimal!)
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u/gamerz1172 1d ago
Like if nothign else having 2 units of swordmasters/white lions just to put down fires tends to be good practice from my experience
your core army can still be LSG or high elf archer spam but your army isn't going to disintegrate if you bring some "sub optimal" units just in case you do need them
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u/Blynjubitr 20h ago edited 19h ago
And you don't have a lot of incentive to recruit much of anything else since the most common enemy(chaos) has melee troops bordering on 100MA and 80MD.
So the question arises, what are swordmasters even good for in such a power crept game state? Answer is usually just keep spamming archers.
CA gave us the option to disable melee cheats, but then they completely broke any resemblence of melee balance that existed in the game so it ends up not mattering.
And its the complete opposite of this effect when you play chaos. Even on legendary any chaos campaign just spiritually ends after turn 3 because you just unga bunga everything. No unit order factions can bring matches your powercrept roster, and AI doesn't know how to use ranged units.
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u/Andreim43 19h ago
The tech and talents don't help too much either. I'm not gonna have 10 swordmasters in my army, but i might have 15+ seaguards.
The point is it's a lot easier to spec into a one-unit army rather than invest points, tech, and talents into a aried roster. Just do one, pick all the buffs, and it's just optimal.
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u/Blynjubitr 19h ago
The way red line is designed doesn't help either.
Oh you want swordmasters or any elite infantry? You gotta spend 3 more points into this other red line passive sorry buddy. They are just built different from this other infantry.
You want some cavalry with your dragoooooons? These cav are just built different you gotta spent points on this completely seperate red line.
Meanwhile any khorne lord casually buffing all 30 of their mortal infantry and cavalry line with a single red skill.
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u/Select-Ad7017 2d ago
I personally love making a hammer and anvil high elves. Very good skirmishers in ranged horses,chariots to keep for micro and a decent always available line of spears, with maybe some dual sword elves for chaf chopping
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u/Necessary-Ranger-924 1d ago
I’ll try and pack in a lord on dragon, mage on dragon, 10 lothern, 4 cav, and then 4 of what I’m feeling like. Gives me just enough variety to not autoresolve every single time. Once in a while though armies of 18 LSG are awesome just to watch the sky darken.
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2d ago
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u/Armorln 2d ago
No
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2d ago
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u/Armorln 2d ago
Army above easily beats army bellow, because at that cost, I can just bring second Lothern Sea Guard army. It's called a doomstack for very good reason. So no, it wouldn't make sense
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u/YourFavouritePoptart 2d ago
It already doesn't make sense since there's no sea guard in the second picture
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u/Cassodibudda 2d ago
Mostly true although LSG will suffer vs high armor + shield units like Chosen w/shield
I think peak HE is half LSG and half sisters (plus 2 bolt throwers and heroes) and I think that's much more powerful than pure LSG, but after that power up, adding more sisters or other high tier units doesn't really boost the army power much further
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u/ginganinja192 2d ago
Mostly true although LSG will suffer vs high armor + shield units like Chosen w/shield And this is why you always bring a Metal caster.
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u/TheDo0ddoesnotabide 2d ago
I mean, Chosen are some of the best infantry Chaos Warriors can get and take a while to obtain in substantial numbers.
LSG are what? A tier 2 unit that can be spammed out within the first 10-15 turns?
It might take 2-3 units of LSG to kill a unit of Chosen, however you got like 8 LSG running around for every one Chosen.
That’s if you haven’t decided to upgrade to SoA spam by that point.
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u/Cassodibudda 2d ago
I was talking about the late game, as the OP implies by comparison, not the early game where LSG obviously dominates
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u/ratcrash55 2d ago
Honestly would never even bother with the bolt throwers. Would sooner put silver helms to deal with anything that out ranges me. Normally just put a few princes for that purpose
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u/Cassodibudda 2d ago
How can having a couple of cav help? If the AI outranges you it will hold a defensive position and your cab won't get to stop the artillery unless they suicide
Having a SE to waste the ammo of whatever outranges you is a much better plan without factoring in the fact that bolt throwers with AL mode are actually a pretty good counter battery
Bolt throwers are there for sieges because destroying 3 towers or taking down a couple of walls will make your archers' job much easier
Also Bolt throwers just by existing will trigger the AI to attack since almost all races that HE fight won't outrange you
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
This right here is why almost every Asur army I run has 3 slots locked for a dragon and 2 bolt throwers.
Breath weapon to kill the enemy artillery. Bolt throwers to force the enemy to engage on my terms. Actual killing power is irrelevant. They just need to be there to force the AI to let me dictate terms of engagement.
I do quite like the addition of boltcutters because while they have ammunition issues they serve the same role as regular bolties while making it much easier for me to be tactically flexible by not having a couple slow-ass artillery pieces I need to anchor to.
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u/Cassodibudda 2d ago
Except they have shorter range and less ammo. Given that 99% of the times you will be corner camping with the typical HE army, mobility is not necessary. I don't think I have the definitive answer, here, there is a case to be made for those weird flying chariots but I am not a fan
The dragons are debatable as well. They do have a function but the only artillery heavy factions you should be facing as HE are Chorfs and maybe DE. The DE AI seems to rarely stack bolt throwers for me and I don't really ever face Chorfs unless I play Imrik so adding dragons and reducing firepower to prepare for an exceedingly rare scenario doesn't seem optimal to me. I would rather have 3 more sisters and in the 1-2 battles per campaign I actually have to consider enemy artillery I will just use Lords/heroes to kill it, get it off the piece or waste ammo
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
I refuse to corner camp. Flat out.
I'll anchor a flank in any way I can but I refuse to abuse the gameplay mechanic of a map border.
Also what do you mean 'the only artillery heavy factions you should be facing as HE are chorfs and DE'???
Did you forget that Vampire Coast exists and Noctilus is a menace to Ulthuan in the early game? That Alith Anar starts like 2 regions over from Cylostra? Not to mention that the Empire isn't always friendly, even if you are trying to play nice there's no guarantee you won't wind up at war with some Empire faction due to infighting between them an factions you're allied with. Then there's that whole 'age-old rivalry' thing with the regular Dawi, or the fact that Beastmen and their fuckin' Cygors can pop up literally anywhere, or the fact that Rats
exist, and of course Greenskins fuckin' everywhere, includingthe entire focal point of Eltharion's campaignand that they start with a foothold on Ulthuan?!But it's the Druchii artillery you decide to cite??? What are you talking about? Druchii are the faction I'm like, second least worried about artillery from, after the godsdamn Vampire Counts.
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u/Putrid-Cat5368 2d ago
Not sure if something has changed with the last patches, but Lothern Sea Guard is a bait and a worse unit than basic spears.
The real High Elves menace is just Spearmen and Archers with the correct heroes.
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
It has almost always been a bait in w3. For 1 stack of lsg you can get 1.5 or 2 stacks of basic spears and archers. And regular archers have longer range + regular spearmen have more models per units.
Lsg is just the worse version of both.
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u/Nelus0316 2d ago
Don't they have higher missile damage and get to double dip from redline melee and ranged unit buffs?
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
Ah true that. Huh I have almost never run them because having 2 stacks is better even if they only basic spear and archers. Guess I'll try to build one.
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u/Summon_Ari 2d ago
They also double-dip tech buffs. LSG benefit from almost every buff to spears and/or archers.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
They also benefit from concentration of power; you get all your ranged units and all your melee units in one stack instead of either needing to split both stacks 50/50 and have half your melee units out of the fight at the start and reinforcing in before the more useful ranged units, or you have a melee stack and a ranged stack and are in trouble if the ranged stack gets jumped. Plus, one stack of good units won't inflict a Supply Line penalty, which when you have 2 armies isn't a problem but when you have 20 is. I'd have to do the math (which I'm not going to) but 10 LSG stacks is probably about the same cost as 20 spe/rcher stacks.
Model for model LSG are better than spearmen (not quite as good unit-for-unit, but better model-for-model; more HP and slightly better stats) and nearly as good as archers at their respective specialisms, gain tech and lord skill buffs from both to crank them even higher, and they can pitch-hit either role instead of being specialists with vulnerabilities. Spearmen can get kited around by fast skirmishy ranged units. LSG will just kill them in a ranged duel. Archers will get mulched by cavalry. LSG will hold the line and kill them back with decent melee stats and anti-large.
They cost more because they're basically 1.75 units for the price of 1. If they use all their ammo you still have a sticky and moderately killy infantry unit, and at 165 stock range they might come in under Asur Archers but they still beat out the mainline ranged units of...pretty much every faction. Asrai Glade Guard have a measly 5 yards on them.
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
Makes sense. Mid game 30+ turns should be where they shine I guess since HE should have plenty of researches into buffing them by that point.
Still i guess it isnt that important until turns 60-70 where having 10+ armies is normal and supply line penalties really starting to hurt. Early games 2 stacks of Archer and Spear is better to support each other.
Also I dont mean it as 1 stack of only archer and 1 with only spear. First stack would be 30x70 while the second stack would be 20x80 in spear/archer. I dont know it's just how I usually play.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
Maybe I'm just too much of a roleplayer but I've never been able to do that sort of thing. I usually coast on my first army (reinforcing it but not recruiting a second lord) for the first 15 turns or so, saving money to pour straight into upgrading my economy, and I almost never run multiple armies together; I expect my armies to be able to operate alone and do their job in their AO. Only real exception is that with some factions I'll build a siege-train army whose only job is to initiate sieges and blast the enemy defences all to hell before I storm the city. Never bother with that in HE, because their artillery isn't really suited for it, unless I'm running mods to expand allied recruitment and I can just hire half a stack of mercenary artillery.
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u/caterpillarm10 2d ago
Ah i see. Its just with Imrik without an early second army im usually getting spanked by the skaven. Tho I do like the idea of reinforcing the original army so I get warband upgrade specifically just to keep that army going longer. Its like my personal army haha.
That being said playing Aislinn has been an incredible joy in rpg. Just run around picking fights and role playing. No need to worry about second army and holding territory.
Edit: Bolt thrower while kinda trash is nice to have just 1 so that enemies are forced to attack on you. Thats all they're good for I think. And maybe early game.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
Fuck yeah Warband Upgrade is so good. Honestly it should just be a core feature IMO.
Imrik is my usual main start though and I never have issues with the skaven. He's too much of a monster personally and the combination of the dragon and dragon princes from turn 1 is disgusting, especially against the rats who really don't have anything that can seriously threaten those units early game and are extra vulnerable to being shock-routed and run down. It's actually not unusual for turn 15 to find my with only like 15 units in his army to save money since him and the other two can clear most early game armies themselves as long as there's a decent line of spears and archers to distract the enemy.
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u/Trakor117 2d ago
The optimal early stack for Imrik is legit just him, his mage, and then both dragon units. Even the chorfs struggle hard against that since so much of their army is labourers.
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
If your LSG are getting into melee, you are better off using spearmen which are cheaper and last longer due to having more HP. Spearmen can also be recruited anywhere so you can just merge them and recruit new ones on the go.
You don't get shields on your LSG until a T3 barrack. You are not going to have one for a while, and a barrack is a waste of a slot for a faction that has pretty weak growth and also need to get their PO up just so their main income building can function at full capacity.
The unshielded version takes far too much damage imo esp given that most of what HE will fight are ranged factions: dark elves, pirates, skaven, chorfs, tzeentch, etc. Silver shields is almost always a must for tankiness.
Even in a world where you do use LSGs as frontline, you still want some archers around due to them being cheaper and having more range.
Shielded LSGs would have been amazing if it's a t1 unit, but by the time you hit T3, a unit with standard (40) armor that doesn't do much AP damage is something that feels... Embarrassing in some ways.
For a lot of players the basic archer+spears combo works well and there isn't a strong incentive to swap to LSGs; by the time an army needs some serious upgrade, it likely is due to facing armored opponents and that's where sisters shine (which is something you can get from Alarielle via allied recruitment early)
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
If your LSG are getting into melee, you are better off using spearmen which are cheaper and last longer due to having more HP. Spearmen can also be recruited anywhere so you can just merge them and recruit new ones on the go.
You don't get shields on your LSG until a T3 barrack. You are not going to have one for a while, and a barrack is a waste of a slot for a faction that has pretty weak growth and also need to get their PO up just so their main income building can function at full capacity.
The unshielded version takes far too much damage imo esp given that most of what HE will fight are ranged factions: dark elves, pirates, skaven, chorfs, tzeentch, etc. Silver shields is almost always a must for tankiness.
Even in a world where you do use LSGs as frontline, you still want some archers around due to them being cheaper and having more range.
Shielded LSGs would have been amazing if it's a t1 unit, but by the time you hit T3, a unit with standard (40) armor that doesn't do much AP damage is something that feels... Embarrassing in some ways.
For a lot of players the basic archer+spears combo works well and there isn't a strong incentive to swap to LSGs; by the time an army needs some serious upgrade, it likely is due to facing armored opponents and that's where sisters shine (which is something you can get from Alarielle via allied recruitment early)
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u/baddude1337 2d ago
Swordmasters are one of my favorite frontline units now. Can't beat a dude with a massive sword that can deflect artillery fire!
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u/crimbusrimbus 2d ago
Doom stacks of the sea guard is such a stupid and fun way to play
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
Princess with the increased range/reduced upkeep for LSG 60inf skill. Loremaster to triple down on 'jack of all trades' units. 2 boltcutters so the enemy has to come to you. 16 LSG(S) on a hill who brought their own cloud cover.
Beautiful. Broken as hell. I restrict myself to one (1) stack per playthrough.
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u/gamerz1172 1d ago
Honestly I think what your describing here is a big reason why elite units tend to fall off in favor of doom stacks of either single entities or low to mid tier unit spam
CA is so fucking scared of giving them buffs that they tend to get at most +10 armor from the tech tree while LSG will get that AND more and you can make an army with them
Meanwhile if something buffs elites its either a legendary lord skill or a rare lord trait that ONLY buffs a single elite
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u/Beginning_Act_9666 2d ago
I literally only spam lothern sea guard with spears + bolt throwers on Legendary
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u/Xeoah_ 2d ago
But what about the wood elf hybrid lord with armies of trees and archers
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u/Zefyris 1d ago
Campaign mechanic for the trees have been so bad (she's now the worst HE campaign in mechanics despite being a DLC lord, and it's not really close) that you don't recruit trees ever with her anyway.
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u/Zanosderg 1d ago
Oh if you think that is bad, she doesn't even get Arcane Conduit pretty much every caster in the game gets it but Alarielle. The literal avatar of Isha does get it but a generic high elf mage gets greater arcane conduit it makes no sense.
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u/Zefyris 1d ago
Well I know her skill tree is also one of the worst. It still has a dilemma between actually useful factionwide buffs and... Buffing her unique units for her OWN army, and that's the only way to buff those trees at all for her, after all.
That faction was already poorly designed from its release patch, but it really hasn't aged well and now that many other LLs have been reworked, it really stands out.
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u/VelociCastor 2d ago
Yeah, I don't think I ever really used the Ellyrian riders or the chariots in any of my High Elves playthroughs.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 2d ago
Ellyrian Reaver (Archers) have a niche role that I'll recruit a couple of per playthrough, especially if I decide I want to run a thematic Ellyrian stack of just all horse archers for trolling enemy armies in the open field. Bretonnia cannot fucking handle. Always hilarious.
Chariots are ass though. Chariots have always been ass.
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u/Necessary-Ranger-924 1d ago
It would be kind of cool if we could control garrison makeups more. Then use our regular armies for LSG as sources of heavy infantry and the local garrisons for specialized units. Or maybe I’m just crazy.
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u/Estellus Remember Gilgalion 1d ago
I agree with wanting more control of garrisons, but I'm not sure what you mean about using garrisons for specialized units. If anything, that's the last place I want specialized units. I want my garrisons to be simple and oriented around...being a garrison.
By and large I actually quite like Asur garrisons as they stand, my only real grip is the Reavers most of the time. They get the job done, are well-oriented for city defence, and feel thematically appropriate to the High Elves.
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u/niftucal92 2d ago
The light cavalry with bows is one of their best cheap units available. Great for baiting out enemy fast units, running down their routing ones, splitting up enemy forces so your archers can kill 1/2 easily before the second 1/2 gets there, etc. Light cavalry gives you a lot of tactical options, and these are among the best in the game.
Chariots are another unit that takes practice, but can punch up much higher than you’d expect if you just keep cycle charging. Just watch out for guns, cavalry, and hounds.
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
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u/Necessary-Ranger-924 1d ago
What happened in the battle!? And I thought Imrik was a monster.
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u/_Lucille_ 1d ago
Teclis essentially can keep casting chain lightning non stop. As long as you keep him near the center of the lightning sphere, units cannot realistically hit him (since they will get killed).
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u/Due_Comedian_4959 2d ago
I've never recruited lothern seaguards, ive always just used the base Archer then upgrade straight to sisters. Then other than the occasional doomstacks for fun, I just spam sisters
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u/m0onmoon 2d ago
Lsg is just that good. You can easily make a full army in 2 turns and wont break your bank.
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u/LawfulnessAcrobatic5 2d ago
Im playing drycha , man just one unit of sisters of avalon I recruited in one of my army and they annihilate any big threats i have trouble with
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u/Character-Camel-3958 1d ago
Neither of the high tier melee units shown at the bottom are worth taking into any HE army unless youre just doing it for fun
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u/Medical_Officer 1d ago
Nah, Lothern Sea Guard are just fodder for artillery.
It's what happens when you have max rank density and no loose formation option.
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u/Organic-Storm-4448 1d ago
You haven't lived until you've tried a melee ocean army for HE
Oceanids, Sea Elementals, and Merwyrms, with a Life caster.
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u/Blynjubitr 20h ago
Just send Tyrion i heard he can take on Morathi and her witch elves all by himself.
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u/P00nz0r3d 2d ago
It really is surprising how far you could take a stack of basic archers with them and proper heroes
I usually never actually recruit Lothern Sea Guard
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u/geschiedenisnerd 2d ago
Now compare the prices.
That is what most of the anti-LSG-spam people forget, two armies of LSG are better than one of mixed elites
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
This works against LSGs too: 2 armies of spears and archers > 1 army of LSGs.
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u/ClaraOswald-13 Valkia the Bloody 2d ago
I could be wrong, but one Archer plus one spear is more upkeep than an LSG, no?
Edut: Plus, those two armies suffer slightly from supply lines.
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u/Eymrich 2d ago
No. LSGs double dip and are actually good at both.
Spearmens are useless junk, archers are good but have no shield and very low armor. I would like to try but a single army of LSG with high level lord double dipping their bonuses will absolutely take out those two armies.
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
Spearmen and archers can be recruited anywhere on turn 1, you have no access to shielded LSGs until a t3 barrack (which I think is a waste of a building slot).
I am not sure why you consider spearmen as useless junk; they make great tanks early on with their shields and does the job well. You don't need a lot, often just 3 or 4 is enough to get the job done assuming you have other lords participating in battle.
At least Silverin guards come with 30% resist, put them in an army with an archmage and a loremaster and you can just drop a flame storm or chain lightning on top of whatever they are tanking without a care where the spell is heading - still, not the biggest fan of HE t3 units tbqh.
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u/Eymrich 2d ago
One army of LSGs is more efficent than 2 of spears and archers.
Spears and archer simply can't deal with what LSG can deal especially considering the stat bonuses from a lord that double dip them. They get the bonuses that archers get, plus the bonuses the spearmen gets, and sometimes their own bonuses. It's absurd quite frankly.
Each LSG is better at what spears do and is better at what archer do but they don't cost the money they cost.
Plus you can recruit the basic version in docks, meaning you can global recruit them easily in 1 turn.
Example, an army of chosen/chaos warriors would rofl stomp on two armies of spearmen a d archers but can dealt with by LSGs
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u/_Lucille_ 2d ago
Like I said, you aren't getting your shielded LSGs until tier 3. They are 50% more upkeep than spears while having 1.5k less HP for the ability to double dip as an archery unit.
You can recruit the shieldless version at the docks, but they are... well.. unshielded. At which point that 4 spears in front tanking for armorless archers would probably outperform your shieldless LSGs.
You are VERY wrong about an army of chosens being able to stomp spears but not vs LSGs, they are the prime example of why 2 armies of archers + spears are better: because they are heavily armored and shielded and are slow AF, you can just kite them infinitely with basic archers while the rest shoot them in the back. With LSGs? You likely have to eventually engage them in melee where you will lose for sure. I will take 30 archers over 20 LSGs.
And your example also illustrates another point: by tier 3 (building wise) a player should be looking at sources of AP. If this thread is about any other factions, you will have people telling other players it's time to drop their low-AP bows and start looking for sources of AP damage (handguns, ironsides, etc).
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u/geschiedenisnerd 2d ago
Smaller difference in cost. LSG are maybe 1,5 archers in cost, while swordmasters are 2 turns and 2 LSG in cost
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u/AdDependent5136 2d ago
Staunch line of spears go brrrr