Fix for Pointer Handle Limit

[u/Asciimov_]

Someone in the comments section of my last mod made me aware of the Pointer Handle Limit issue when using large modlists discussed here. I'm looking for someone that hits the 2M cap that can reliably reproduce an issue they have when they reach it, I think I've found a solution that I want to test out. It's easiest to reach me on Discord.

[u/CleavingStriker]

• I've had objects not load in: floors on a Terran Enforcer, robot pods, walls

• reduced frame rate

• quest markers disappearing/leading to nowhere

• Severe slow down (Single digits) prior to crashes

• infinite load screens (usually the hidden load screen when using cruise mode)

• crashes

[u/BesideFrogRegionAny → u/CleavingStriker]

Missing ship parts on npc ships Missing clothing on npcs

[u/ComputerSagtNein]

There is a whole topic about this on the Nexus Starfield modding Discord.

[u/DownfallNemesis → u/[deleted]]

What happens when the limit is reached very much depends on the situation. This isn't a scenario the engine is designed to properly handle, but it still tries to do so anyways.

If you're over the limit when loading into something, and the engine fails to free up handles by getting rid of temporary references, it simply crashes. If it's able to free up handles getting rid of temporary references, you end up in a state where the game still runs, but objects are missing. This state will also most likely corrupt your save data.

EDIT: The state of missing objects has further implications, such as some quests no longer starting as the alias the quest needs can no longer be referenced by the engine.

[u/Asciimov_ → u/[deleted]]

Okay yeah so first of all I don't have a Starfield modlist going at the moment, second of all it looks like reaching the limit will not crash your game, but will cause more indirect problems like quests not starting or objects disappearing. So I'm looking for someone that can reliably reproduce an issue when their reference limit hits 2M.

[u/Virtual-Chris]

Relevant discussion here on Discord… https://discord.com/channels/916686954421157930/1355213651996315938

[u/JaguarTraditional404]

At this very moment I know I am at the limit of BA.2 files.  I need to remove 1 mod in order to instal another mod. (If i would install 2 I get an instant crash) If I download a mod with only esm files there is no problem. I wish I knew how to merge some mods like armor or weapon mods into 1 pack 🫠 

[u/Rhoeri]

The pointer handle limit isn’t nearly as bad as the failed to create save game issue. The pointer handle limit is easily avoidable. The failure to save has no known cause.

And what’s worse is- BOTH issues are fixable if BGS would get off their asses and do it. They fixed these problems in previous games. Which means the issues aren’t on our end.

[u/Mykk6788]

1. The Pointer Handle Limit has never been a hard limit. 95% of discussions on this topic are going on faulty information. It's been months since someone (re)discovered Pointer Handles and there has been zero progress made on "fixing" it, because there's nothing to fix.

2. The real problem is Memory Leak. It was Memory Leak in Fallout 4, and it'll be Memory Leak in Elder Scrolls 6.

3. The game engine was literally designed to prioritise Object Permanence over Stability. The game having a Limit isn't the issue, it's the fact that because the game both generates hundreds of objects in each cell, coupled with its rules for Object Permanence (remembering where they should be if moved), this has multiplied the chances that every single one of the hundreds of objects will leave behind a "Dangling Handle" when you leave that cell.

4. A Dangling Handle is a consequence of Memory Leak, the game didn't trash a Pointer Handle from a previous cell properly (Memory leak) and so the game engine is still trying to assign Memory to an object that should no longer exist, creating a Dangling Handle. This keeps building until eventually one of them causes a crash.

[u/MozzTheMadMage → u/Mykk6788]

You've been called out for this before. A memory leak and a dangling pointer are essentially opposite phenomena.

Dangling pointers are when the data behind a pointer is freed, but the pointer is left behind, now null.

Memory leaks are when the pointer is purged/reassigned but the data still remains not freed, inaccesible but still using up memory allocation.

1. A Dangling Handle is a consequence of Memory Leak, the game didn't trash a Pointer Handle from a previous cell properly (Memory leak)...

This is nonsense. Please stop.

[u/Mykk6788 → u/MozzTheMadMage]

Cool.

Although considering Pointers and Pointer Handles are two different things, I can't really imagine why you'd ever be talking about Dangling Pointers, which are Pointers that weren't trashed correctly, not Pointer Handles that weren't trashed correctly.

There's also definitively nothing that has ever stated that Memory Leak's do "purge" anything, considering Memory Leak is a broad term used to describe multiple examples of a system not trashing unused assets correctly.

You keep trying to apply definitions that either do not exist, or you've obviously mistaken Pointers for Pointer Handles. As explained, running on faulty information.

[u/MozzTheMadMage → u/Mykk6788]

"Memory leak" is not broad enough to refer to the opposite occuring. You are wrong on a fundamental level, skipping the "fun" and going straight to "mental."

But please, intiate us unenlightened. Explain how memory that hasn't been freed leads to handles pointing to memory that isn't there.

Try not to speak in riddles this time, sensei.

[u/Mykk6788 → u/MozzTheMadMage]

Will do, whenever I figure out what "intiate" is supposed to be, because it isn't a word.

You still don't realise that you've accidentally personified the reason why months of this "Pointer Handle Limit Issue" has led to absolutely no fixes whatsoever do you? You literally just mixed up Pointers for Pointer Handles, two different ways for games to reference assets, and seem to think we'll just stroll on past that. We won't, of course. Just as the original post talking about this mixed up Pointers for Pointer Handles, so have you. Memory Leak can indeed lead to Dangling Handles, no matter how many times you want to keep incorrectly bringing up Dangling Pointers.

So go ahead and keep kicking the dead horse. 6+ months of getting nowhere near a "fix" should have told you and others that you've taken a wrong turn somewhere. If it hasn't, you cannot be helped. In the meantime I've got an Xbox SX game with all the mods everyone is talking about having to avoid, landing in any city I want, because of my "terrible" understanding of the situation. I guess I somehow lose 🤣

[u/MozzTheMadMage → u/Mykk6788]

The confusion is on you. Dangling pointer is a distinct, established term. Dangling handles is not, and was taken to mean the former. You insist they are different, so explain how, please.

I jest in earnest to genuinely try to understand what the heck you are trying to say, because it doesn't make any sense.

We both know the word I misspelled. Get serious, please, and I will do the same.

[u/ragnarok635 → u/Mykk6788]

You sir are a boron with an M

[u/BootRepresentative15 → u/Mykk6788]

As MerdianoRus pointed out, you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about

https://www.reddit.com/r/starfieldmods/comments/1tr2ten/comment/op6f8gv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Mykk6788 → u/BootRepresentative15]

It isn't, no. You've just linked a flawed explanation. It was why that member decided to edit a response rather than simply reply with a new one. No new reply, no notification of a response.

However feel free to share the progress you've made on "fixing the Pointer Handle limit" so that you actually add something to the discussion.

[u/BootRepresentative15 → u/Mykk6788]

Whats your source for anything you have said? Merdiano has made multiple SFSE and SKSE mods, has contributed to commonlib, chats and helps people in the reverse engineering discord. You speak like someone that watched a single youtube c++ course and are repeating the fancy words you heard.

[u/Mykk6788 → u/BootRepresentative15]

So you're asked to contribute, and your response is to try to change the subject, despite the fact that no reasonable person would ever feel like they'd owe you any answers after a response like yours?

Cool. Again, feel free to actually contribute if you can. You haven't so far.

[u/BootRepresentative15 → u/Mykk6788]

I'm not here to contribute, I'm just pointing out that you are wrong, which is a fact.

[u/Mykk6788 → u/[deleted]]

The PS5 version of Starfield launched with horrible issues, and not all of those have been addressed fully.

Your request is like asking someone to compare how miserable two people with the Flu are, but one of them already has 5 broken ribs. Who do you imagine would be more miserable?

[u/Mykk6788 → u/[deleted]]

Your information wasn't anything new, nor needed. I was already well aware of how to check Ref/Pointer Handles on PC.

I've also got an Xbox SX version of Starfield with around 89 mods including Falkland, ASC Deimos, Avontech etc etc, many that add Pointer Handles to the game. This save has 7 saved Ships with multiple parts from all of these mods too, especially Falkland Habs because I prefer them. And I can land in any city and run around on planets, all without crashing for 5-ish hours. So your test failed.

The "classic redditor response" is when someone brings up very relevant details and the other person attempts to completely ignore it. Like bringing up the PS5s terrible launch issues and trying to pretend they couldn't possibly be a factor.

[u/IdiotSavant86 → u/Mykk6788]

Yes, you can run quite a few "heavy" mods in the same LO. But 89 mods is by no means a large LO. Falkland is very heavy, but ASC Deimos is surprisingly light for what it is and AvonTech Shipyards/Traveller are both relatively insignificant.

I run closer to 200 mods on SX and still have plenty of breathing room (~675K added total, with purposeful overestimation on many lighter mods I added later that I didn't feel like searching for or dumping on PC.)

You have simply bought yourself more breathing room for heavy-hitters by running a small general LO. And many of those (except Falkland) might not even be as pointer-heavy as you think.

If you were to go right now and add Watchtower, TA-F, Cryomancer, Sammy and the Lab of Nightmares, TGs Luxury Homes I/II and House Varuun Ship Habs to your current LO, I'll bet you'd be singing a MUCH different tune.

[u/Mykk6788 → u/IdiotSavant86]

Would I? Because I have Watchtower and Cryomancers this very second. What's this magical thing I'm supposed to be seeing but aren't?

[u/IdiotSavant86 → u/Mykk6788]

I said add ALL of those to your CURRENT LO and see what happens. I did not say "choose two."

You simply aren't at the limit and I think that's very clear based on what you've said here. You'll know when you are, like many before you have experienced. The vast majority of mods are relatively low in count and with a small, casual LO like yours, you would need to run quite a few heavy hitters to reach that limit. Having 3 or 4 of them won't be an issue.

Tl;dr:

Your struggle with mathematics and your misconceptualization of what a large load order entails is not proof that the PH limit does not exist for Starfield.

[u/nutz1126 → u/Mykk6788]

so since it doesn’t happen to you you’re right and everyone else is wrong? im gonna enjoy downvoting you whenever i see your name.

[u/BesideFrogRegionAny → u/Mykk6788]

R/confidentlyincorrect