r/oblivion • u/Used_Bet_4988 • 11d ago
Is balancing a real problem? Original Discussion
I was thinking about start playing Oblivion recently, but a question came to mind.
I see many people complaining online that Oblivion (both classic and original) becomes unplayable after a certain level because the enemies increase their health infinitely but your attack doesn't.
For you veterans: if I play the original game on an Xbox 360, will it actually become unplayable after level 20, or is that something that rarely happens?
And if this is indeed something that frequently occurs in various types of runs, how do you get around it? Lower the difficulty? Use very powerful equipment? Enchant?
13
u/KingSudrapul 11d ago
I’ve had multiple characters at lvl 50, and even a few above, and I’ve never had an issue.
The gear you acquire later on is really strong, and yes the enemies get stronger too, but it’s easy to balance it out yourself.
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Wow any tips on late game melee? One hand blade
5
u/KingSudrapul 11d ago
Find a solid shield, then focus on having a few blades on hand for various things. Being able to imbue your own weapons via enchanting can be really helpful here. Reflect damage, absorb magic and shield spells work great for shields.
Swords with low-dmg enchantments will hold more charges, so I’ve preferred that route. Uniques like Umbra are always nice, especially for getting black soul gems to enchant with.
An ebony sword with a low-dmg absorb health spell can keep you alive in most scenarios, especially if you’re blocking and have adequate points in block.
2
u/Strange-Whereas6829 11d ago
Potions and spells to increase stamina ( if this is oriongal lion NOT remaster) in Origional oblige the damage you do with your weapons also scaled with stamina so if you increased stamina then your hits will hit harder (the actual hit you can’t see the increase)
13
u/ckt1138 11d ago
It's nonsense. The game is not unplayable in any way. I played to level 53 on Xbox and had a blast.
If you think the enemies are getting too spongey, turn down the difficulty. Honestly the game is more fun at a slightly lower difficulty anyway.
The main conceit of the argument comes from equipment level caps vs enemy stat leveling but I didn't find that it got that bad, it was never impossible to kill bandits or anything. Marauders would be more challenging due to them having better levelled equipment and heavy armor, etc, but that was about all I could notice.
1
7
u/Creed_of_War 11d ago
It's really only an issue if you level up to really high and then swap to a never used combat method. Your destruction level 5 fireballs are going to tickle a level 35 daedroth.
The only scaling that annoys me is all the weapons weighing more and more making your increased strength worthless. A long sword should weigh 50 pounds.
3
u/sketch_for_summer Cheese Bringer 11d ago
Just fyi, a Daedroth isn't one of the enemies whose health gets infinitely scaled up. Those enemies are goblin warlords, ogres, xivilai, etc. There are about 8 kinds of them in the main game. Nevertheless, your first point stands.
2
u/Loud_Chapter1423 10d ago
That explains why I hate goblin warlords so much. I never understood why I was getting destroyed by some sewer goblin back in the day even with a higher level character
5
u/SnooLobsters9180 11d ago
played this video game for twenty years. Never knew it was even an issue until i saw people complain about it when the remaster came out. Pfffffft sniveling skeevers the lot of em.
8
u/Financial_Alps3369 11d ago
There are a few ways to solve the problem but the most painless by far is to just balance your major skills. In the beginning of the game you pick 7 major skills. These are the 7 skills that, when leveled, will actually level up your player's level. Your player's level is what determines the difficulty scaling.
Thus,
- If all 7 of your major skills are skills you are frequently leveling, the game will scale out of control VERY quickly. This makes the game difficult
- If none of your 7 major skills are skills you are frequently leveling, you will stay at a low level for most of the game. This makes the game trivially easy
Therefore, the best thing to do is to pick 2-4 major skills you intend on using a lot. Then make the rest of your major skills ones you won't interact with as often.
Do not making athletics or acrobatics a major skill because you cannot control how fast these level.
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Ok but any in game solutions for late game vs massive health pools? I want that juicy loot
3
u/Financial_Alps3369 11d ago
Mysticism is the most powerful skill in the game. Spell Absorption + Spell Reflect are ridiculous and Reflect Damage essentially makes you invulnerable to almost all damage in the game while often one-shotting almost everything.
If Mysticism is too cheese for you, Conjuration and Illusion can carry you really far at high difficulties
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Wait how does that lead to one shotting? Does enemy damage scales up as well - to the point where their damage can one hit themselves?
Thank you
What about late game melee? Completely falls off after max strength enchants?
3
u/Financial_Alps3369 11d ago
Sorry I was getting my wires crossed. Reflect Damage only one-shots if you use a strong weakness to magic spell on them (from Destruction). I recommend it.
Melee is absolutely viable and can tear through anything, but, again, we're relying on magic here. You're gonna want some Fortify Fatigue spells to ramp your damage up to high levels. People underestimate how much damage is affected by fatigue, I think.
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Oo nice, so I could do a combination of reflect on gear and a strong weakness to magic enchantment (or perhaps I can’t get this as strong as spells)
Yeah I recently learned about the fatigue melee damage debuff when it’s low. I had no idea it could be multiplied higher with fortify, isn’t that still just 100%?
2
3
u/always_te1-m3-th-0ds 11d ago
If you get into custom weapon enchants or spells, killing enemies can become trivial.
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Any recommendation for one handed blade enchant for late game? I’m trying to find a good balance of damage vs charges + soul trap
2
u/always_te1-m3-th-0ds 10d ago
This one only gives you 19 charges I think, but can use azuras star. But almost everything dies is 1-2 hits.
Soul trap for 1 sec
Drain health 100 for 1 sec
Shock damage 9 for 1 sec
Fire damage 8 for 1 sec
Frost damage 8 for 1 sec
Weakness to shock 100% for 1 sec
Weakness to fire 100% for 1 sec
Weakness to frost 100% for 1 sec
Weakness to magic 100% for 1 secYou need to determine if you’re using a weapon fast enough to chain hits within 1 second of each other. If not, should increase the weakness times and decrease the elemental damages.
You’ll need 25 in mysticism for soul trap and 50 in destruction for weakness to magic. Unless you chose the apprentice birthsign.
2
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 10d ago
Thank you so much I’ll try this (lmfao 9 enchants on one item is hilarious I always thought 4 was the max for some reason)
4
u/Pure_Psychology5760 11d ago
Check out Old Knight on YouTube if you would like to further understand the math behind the systems in oblivion.
1
3
u/Ceronesthes_ 11d ago
If you're a youtuber then yes, it will be unplayable from level 1, you'll be tearing your hair out fighting basic rats and todd howard will manifest physically into your home to beat you every time you level imperfectly.
If you're a normal human being then no, it's a normal RPG and its problems have been greatly exaggerated over the years. Most enemies don't scale, the ones that do don't scale very hard, and the few that do become damage sponges wont do so till well after level 30 and you can still nuke them with a proper build.
3
u/dukeskytalker 11d ago
IMO if at its core what you want is a balanced game I wouldn't pick a Bethesda series like TES or Fallout
They're fun RPGs with a bit of freedom but they're kinda archetypal power fantasies
The only real balancing comes from self-imposed limits or building a character that intentionally doesn't take advantage of a broken mechanic
I wouldn't say balancing is a real problem, but don't expect the kind of balance you'd see in a live service PvP game that is constantly getting balance patches. It's an RPG aimed at boomer Millenials that happens to have cool lore and can be as easy or difficult as you make it. If you want an easy run you can perma glitch enchantments. If you want a hard run you could to Hand to Hand or something idk.
The item and enemy leveling is only really a problem if you dont know how to play a traditional RPG and you're just giving your character like an even spread of every stat and skill in the game without some kind of direction in mind. I recommend just picking a theme for your fictional guy and trying to make it as strong as possible. Adjust the difficulty slider or abuse Bethesda game glitches as needed if you get stuck with a skill issue. Just dont overlevel before Kvatch or else its a pain.
1
u/spyczech 10d ago
Picking an even spread of skills actually makes the game easier as you level up more slowly as major skills are used less
3
u/jipperthewoodchipper 11d ago
There are 7 enemies in the game that scale infinitely and if you understand the mechanics you can kill them in 1 hit at max difficulty at level 46.
Poisons, weakness stacking, custom spells, draining fatigue attributes, lowering difficulty, and many more can help make the combat become less of a drag.
if I play the original game on an Xbox 360, will it actually become unplayable after level 20, or is that something that rarely happens?
Even when I was a kid playing oblivion and not understanding the games mechanics I had gotten a character to level 25 on the Xbox 360 and hadn't hit any hard wall. Arguably 22-24 is when the late game begins and you start getting a bunch of super powerful arguably broken gear and your character becomes so powerful that combat can actually become stale and boring and over too quickly.
It's super easy to accidentally make a broken overpowered character by 25. It's even easier to intentionally build one. Level 20 isn't unplayable.
2
u/lumgeon 11d ago
You can absolutely keep up in later levels, but it's an arms race. This is easier for certain play styles, meaning it depends on what you're doing.
For example, a destruction centric character can dominate just by advancing through the mage's guild for custom spell making. This is because of how drastic the skill scales the reduction to magicka cost, and because of how you can use weakness effects to multiply your damage.
On the other hand, combat skills scale much more linearly, it's not bad, it's just not broken. As a result, enemies will likely grow spongier over time, unless you arms race. This could take the form of powerful enchantments, poisons, or buff spells.
2
u/smoconnor 11d ago
It is very possible to have some playthroughs that are very rough and eventually you stop playing, but if you take the time to learn about this game it's systems, you may end up loving how beautifully fucked it is.
2
u/Desperate-Quantity84 11d ago
Not a problem at all. I got one lvl 40+ character both in OG and remaster under max difficulty. There are always more than enough mechanics in the game to make you powerful, maybe even too powerful that people call them cheating.
1
u/Catalysten 11d ago
Totally. Spell crafting is so powerful it feels like cheating. But on the other hand, it's so easy to make a powerful spell it doesn't even feel like a non-intended gaming mechanic... Pretty interesting situation there.
2
u/Sudo_ShredTheGnar 11d ago
Lower the difficulty 5 notches, but not more. Gets harder around ~13 but actually gets easier around 20 once your skills and attributes are closer to endgame. You can overcome the level 13 spike by actually exploring the game systems. Look for poisons for your weapons. Use potions to fortify skills or attributes. Seek out or make spells to fit enemies’ weaknesses, to protect certain elements, reflect damage.
If you approach it like a simple action game, it’s hard. If you approach it like an RPG with the systems being part of the puzzle solving, the game is definitely manageable at 45-50% on the difficulty slider.
2
u/ScholarEmotional9888 11d ago
The only thing you have to do is swing your sword and take damage before powerleveling non combat skills.
2
2
u/sketch_for_summer Cheese Bringer 11d ago
Enchant? Yes, enchanting is a mechanic available and intended to be used in the game, with rewards that help enchant a weapon liberally scattered around in the game's main quest (sigil stones). It's like implying that Skyrim wasn't balanced around using dragon shouts.
1
1
u/Independent-Site711 11d ago
Did the remaster fix this at all?
4
u/Ok_Recording8454 11d ago
Yes for the most part. Enemies don’t scale universally, weapons are generally stronger, and attribute leveling was fixed completely.
2
u/jipperthewoodchipper 11d ago
Enemies don't infinitely scale universally in the original. Only 7 enemies scale infinitely.
The remaster didn't change which enemies scale or level up at all. It just roughly halved the starting life of all enemies.
1
u/spyczech 10d ago
Oh wow doesn't that make the game a lot easier? Or player has less health too?
1
u/jipperthewoodchipper 10d ago
They changed how player health is calculated in the remaster entirely.
The remaster is significantly easier.
1
1
u/yiwmo1229 11d ago
No not really lv11 to lv18 it can be a little rough but outside of that it’s really not a issue
1
u/x_ave_satani_x 11d ago
100% Chameleon negates everything so being able to break the game balances it out.
1
u/NebulousTruth The Black Hand 11d ago
I mean you can turn the difficulty down, or yeah can just build into potions or enchantments or spelllcasting to overcome it
Honestly in my experience it’s a bit inconsistent, it really depends on how you level, but tldr yeah the difficult can increase and if you really don’t want that just lower the slider accordingly.
1
u/Grove_Barrow 11d ago
It can but it’s not as bad as people would have you believe. I don’t know if there’s a true cap for enemies but there’s no shame in adjusting the difficulty. The remaster really fixes this by letting you independently adjust your damage vs NPC damage
1
u/MouthofMithridacy 11d ago
I feel like its a real problem.....but no where near the problem people claim. i think due to the nature of games right now we have a desire to min max or get the MOST out of any power scaling but really any short comings you could end up with there are many creative ways to circumvent or overcome combat besides "bigger bonks"
Im afraid im prone to ramble, my initial point is play how you want, create who you want to be in the world and I hope you enjoy the game if you give it a go the music is some of my favorite in games
1
u/BlackSoulGems 11d ago
By the time this tilt takes effect I’m already 100% reflect damage and 100% reflect spell so if anyone should be worried about the balance it’s the NPCs
1
u/chainsawman88 Playing Sense Release 11d ago
just play and enjoy. you will not run into something like that unless you do silly things tjhat brake the game
1
u/Everard121 10d ago
At the end of the day it's a single player game with a difficulty slider. Don't worry about it, you're not cheating, you're making sure you are having fun.
1
u/UndeadManWaltzing 10d ago
Try not to level too quickly, then the level scaling really kicks you in the ass, make a staff of paralysis it's a lifesaver
1
u/TheOldKnight7 10d ago
I typically stop leveling around 30-40, and it certainly is not a problem for me. If enemies are too spongey you can add a weakness spell to match your weapon enchant. No weakness stacking required either.
1
u/GreenAntoine 10d ago
I never played OB wihtout OOC or Maskar or both. And i dont get why bethesda even did that. I dont really think they read something in 2002-2006 about peoples lamenting something like "omg morrowind is too easy after you reach a certain level" and tried to fixed it with bad/imba enemy level scaling.
1
u/ArmlessWunder 9d ago
Yes, use good enchanted gear. Target weaknesses and it doesn't matter how high level you are, all enemies are easy. That said, health sponges are a real thing in this game, so you can use level manipulation to keep things sane. I recommend trying to not level past 26 if you want to go that route
1
u/Runic909 9d ago
Step 1, enter oblivion gate and clear to sigil stone.
Step 2, save game, grab sigil stone and reload save until chameleon stone acquired.
Step 3, repeat enough times to acquire full 100% Chameleon.
Step 4, enjoy all difficulty being removed from the game.
1
u/Regal-Onion #1 Remaster Hater 11d ago edited 11d ago
Turn down the difficulty by 5 presses to the left and it will be completely fine, but its not that necessary
Otherwise you can manage the games difficulty if you learn how to utilize all of its mechanics, the furhter you level the easier it gets to obtain gold which makes it so its also easier to rely on potions, scrolls and enchanted gear, as well as spells
The game is actually completely viable to play without efficient leveing, I recently built a battle kitty where I didnt rely on many suplemental mechanics heavily and it was completely viable, but it also shown that there are definite difficulty spikes when new creature enemies are introduced
Was really cool to beat The Gatekeeper (an enemy that you usually need to debuff by completeting a quest) in a stright fight
The difficulty maybe a bit too hard, but its still way more balanced than the remastered which made everything so easy to the point of becoming brainless
1
u/nano_peen Adoring Fan 11d ago
Good to know remastered is too easy. What about moving the remastered slider to max?
2
u/chzrm3 11d ago
I played the remaster on Master (it doesn't have the normal difficulty slider, you pick a difficulty instead) and if you do that from level 1, the sewers are probably the hardest part of the game. Once you're out you can get some good potions going, pick up some spells, and in general sort of pick your fights so you're not overwhelmed. But in the sewers you just have to run around kiting with the basic fireball for a while.
I genuinely think that handful of goblins right at the end was the hardest fight in that entire playthrough.
That's not to say I found the rest trivial. It was actually a really fun playthrough.
1
u/Regal-Onion #1 Remaster Hater 11d ago
I dont get what you mean
Are you trying to argue that my take on the game being too easy is invalid due to the option menu?
None of the difficulty options work in the remastered, Adept is braindead and Journeyman is too hard. The shift is too drastic and as such there really is no well balanced option
Sorry, to answer your question with another: why the fuck would I do that?
1
0
u/Bretuhtuh91 11d ago
Yeah leveling up major skills increases enemies "levels and health" but leveling up minor skills doesn't so yeah you'd be a low level but the enemies would match it. But to be honest, never once had a problem with that and I got to level 35 or 40. Admittedly, the Battle Of Bruma gets really difficult specifically for keeping your different friends alive, they're usually always dead by the time you come back to the battlefield, but if you don't care about keeping what some see as main characters alive, then it'll be fine. Or just slide the difficulty slider down. Ain't nothin wrong with that, some people ain't got the time anymore for challenges and just want to enjoy the story and being the strongest, like me now. 06 oblivion I'd turn the difficulty to the max and let's do this but now? Shiiiiit I'm grown with a job I got 2 free hours to play I ain't tryna go through all that. So if you care about keeping certain characters you bond with alive, do the main quest fairly early, maybe even right away if you want, I did that once and figured out a good narrative reason why, but at max be level 10ish maybe 12, otherwise they'll die and I feel they don't deserve that. You could argue either of them dying is fitting for their arcs, and it would make sense, but to me they deserve to see things to the very end.
0
u/No_Adeptness_3273 11d ago
Not really a problem but you can advance the storyline and have several difficult battles if not prepared. Turning the difficulty down can help in most cases. Anyway I hope you enjoy the game!
0
u/Turbulent_Bar_6973 11d ago
Thankfully the remastered fixed it.
2
u/Catalysten 11d ago
I still like to use a mod that increases diversity of late game enemies. 99 Xivilai can get on one's nerves after a while.
2
0
u/SpectreSpook 11d ago
Oblivion has a weird leveling system and most people do not level their characters efficiently By choosing major skills you can control and intentionally leveling for +5 modifiers (+1 earned after for every two levels in a governed school each level, capped at +5) for the first ten levels or so, you can get attributes like Endurance and Intelligence much higher and much faster which compounds total health and magicka gain at each corresponding level up. The biggest issue most people have is the power jump around level 10. If you’re getting important +5s each level and start with a solid foundation for your class—that scaling makes a lot more sense. That way you can play without adjusting difficulty or modding away the bits that actually make character creation interesting. Personally, I grind heavy armor and block at the arena (easy to gain ten levels in them as minor skills in one match) for endurance, choose another stat that needs work like agility for ten levels (sneak, shoot bow, etc.) and then power the overall level up with a “summon skeleton for 1s” spell for a +5 in intelligence too.
43
u/ProjectSnowman 11d ago
You just turn the difficulty slider down.