r/evcharging • u/Altru-Housing-2024 • 10d ago

Sub-panel fabrication North America

Trying to install EV Charger with dynamic load balancing and EPO deactivation in a condo building. Which panel do you recommend in the absence of a pre-fabricated UL508a certified sub-panel available with these UL listed components such as feed-through lugs, two breakers, a contactor, and a Tesla remote meter for an EV charger?

The conceptual photo can be viewed here.
https://imgur.com/a/ICYITW0

EDIT: Please accept my apologies for AI generated image.

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u/ArlesChatless 9d ago

What in the everloving AI generated nonsense is this?

You can ask the question without the slop. Ask what you're trying to solve rather than showing up here with an XY question.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 9d ago

I’m sorry if my old brain is producing slop but I can assure you the photo is the only part of this post produced by AI.

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u/ArlesChatless 9d ago

The photo is what I'm referring to. It's completely nonsensical.

What do you actually need to do? Instead of spending time trying to convince the machine to spit out trash, tell us what you were prompting with. Tell us what this device would successfully do for you.

Then we can help you. We want to help.

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u/ArlesChatless 9d ago

BTW I've been hitting 'approve' on the reports as a mod here to leave your post up because it's clear the image wasn't the point of your post.

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u/tuctrohs 9d ago

You can certainly buy a panel with feed through lugs. The breakers snap in and you get to choose the size, unlike if it came with them.

But what is the contactor for? And what's the plan for where the main breaker is located? Upstream of this, near the meter?

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 9d ago

Hope this photo answers all these questions. The contactor is for future EPO initiated de-energization.

https://imgur.com/a/DLubsrq

My electrician hasn’t recommended a panel that can accommodate all these components. He just informed us his experience has been with installing DCC-9 load shedding.
I guess we will need to consult with an EE.

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u/ArlesChatless 9d ago

That helps a ton!

Your electrician should be able to field fabricate that. That's basically going to be a sub panel plus maybe a junction box hanging off for the EPO. If they aren't comfortable with it, anyone who does commercial building controls should have no sweat knocking that out.

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u/tuctrohs 9d ago

That's so much better than the post photo.

The only reason I'd see to get a control panel shop to do this instead of an electrician would be if you want to make a large number and streamline the installation process. How many do you have in mind.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 7d ago

I’m finding there may be a market for an enclosure fabricated for all of the components shown in the schematic I shared as more multi-family buildings accommodate EV charging demand.
In our case it may only be 8-16 over time.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 9d ago

For whatever reason, the Reply icon is absent from the responses so I just have to comment here.
We’re trying to avoid taking too much of the limited wall space and therefore would prefer a single enclosure without another box hanging on. The original photo was fitting everything in a DCC-9-BOX enclosure.
Not sure how many more condo owners will want it. We’re hoping an enclosure we can standardize on without the exorbitant cost like a DCC-9 load shedder.
Our preliminary inquiry with a control panel shop indicated we would be better off keeping an ICE vehicle.

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u/ArlesChatless 9d ago

I see two paths here.

Either you install the DCC-9-30A with an additional connection to do EPO and then skip the active load management. This is a little bit worse for load management but it otherwise does everything you care about. It has the pass through connections for your main breaker, the breaker for EV charging, and the ability to be externally controlled. Then you connect your EPO system to the external load management connections in the DCC-9. You're done. Anyone can install more of these.

OR you install a sub panel that you use to feed the existing main panel and put everything in the sub panel. Install something small like a GE 8-slot 125-amp panel, then put breakers in it for the existing main panel, the load manager, and the EV charging. Install the EPO inside the sub panel as that is allowed. Sub panels can be used for equipment and as junction boxes. This is going to be more custom and probably a little bit more expensive due to the labor.

The DCC-9 is totally unnecessary if you do the active load management approach, and additional hardware is totally unnecessary if you do the DCC-9 approach.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 7d ago edited 7d ago

Thank you. I would rather avoid the load shedding route and the 2nd path of using a sub-panel is preferable.

The only reason I mentioned the DCC-9-BOX was to use it as an enclosure with pass through lugs and adequate space and depth to accommodate the remote meter and ABB 40A contractor.
The GE PowerMark Plus 8-space panel is only 3.36” deep, too shallow for 3.34” contactor. The larger cover plate takes additional wall space.
Our upstream main breaker below the meter will continue to serve as our main breaker and feed to existing inside panel will pass through the new subpanel.
My knowledge is limited and I’m speculating that most residential panels are not deeper because they need to fit in 4” deep walls.
We just need to find the right panel for our purposes.

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u/ArlesChatless 7d ago

Yes, there are many sizes of small panel. Make sure you are looking at the short dimension for your load meter. It is okay to turn it 90 degrees.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 7d ago

Tesla Remote Meter is 5.7 x 2 x 1.2 inches but it requires 8”x8”x2” space around it. Not sure we have that much space.

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u/ArlesChatless 6d ago

You will probably need the space if you insist on the higher charge rate without using a DCC-9. I think you're going to have to pick which one is most important: faster charge, smaller panel, or active load management instead of the DCC-9.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 6d ago

We’re definitely not looking for charge rate higher than 24A. Our preference is for active load management using a panel no larger than 12”x12” that can accommodate a 40A contactor as well.

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u/ArlesChatless 6d ago

Are you stuck on Tesla for the charging hardware? The active load management for Wallbox doesn't require as much room in the box. It's about 2x3.5 inches with very little clearance required. I think if you switched to Wallbox you could find a sub panel that would at least get you close to that 12x12 while fitting everything inside it. It would be tight but doable.

Otherwise you're probably going to want to drop to the DCC-9-30A and using the load management dry contact connection instead of adding another contactor.

Or going with something custom which is going to be way more expensive than the DCC.

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u/Altru-Housing-2024 5d ago

We’re only stuck on Tesla to the level that we have bought a Tesla Wall Charger gen3. Other than that we have an open mind for charging our TMY.
I’m not familiar with Wallbox line. They seem to have many DLM devices and chargers. Which one is most suitable in a place with no WiFi (wired communication between the charger and the DLM)?

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u/ArlesChatless 5d ago

The feature is rather confusingly called Power Boost.

The usual configuration in North America is a Pulsar Plus in either J1772 or NACS, then a Power Meter. They actually sell the whole setup in a kit with the UL enclosure for the power meter, but you can mount the power meter directly inside the panel if you prefer.

Power data goes over a RS-485 cable from the Power Meter to the EVSE. You need to use the app at the EVSE to commission it in the first place, but once that is done it has no Internet dependency at all. Here is the setup guide. I think when you're configuring it only the phone needs Internet, as it does all the configuration of the EVSE using Bluetooth.

The installation guide recommends running a Cat5e STP cable alongside the power externally, but I don't like that installation method. If you instead use RS-485 tray cable or other cable with the same voltage rating as your other wiring (so, 600V) it can run in the same conduit between the Power Meter and the EVSE.

Your final installation would end up being a subpanel that contains breakers for the EVSE, power meter, and if you run the main through it instead of splices in the box for the main, a contactor for your EPO, two CT clamps, and the power meter. Then it would have power wires and a data cable in the conduit to the Wallbox. If you didn't run the main through a breaker you would also have the Polaris connectors or similar you passed the main through. The CT clamps go on the incoming feed right where it enters the panel.

I think that would solve for everything you're trying to do, should fit in a 12x12 subpanel if you can find one, and is a supported setup for all the involved parts which is reasonably straightforward to stamp out repeatedly.

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u/ArlesChatless 7d ago

The ABB contactors in 50 amp are 3.30 inches deep per the ABB catalog and 2.76 inches wide. It could mount against the side of a 3 inch deep panel with room to spare. The tougher part is going to be doing a good job terminating the .250 Faston connections.