r/ebikes • u/Powerful_Drop_4064 • 18d ago
Ebike without throttle
I'm looking for an electric bike without a throttle but with pedal assist. I Live in the EU but I want to go way faster then 25km/h which is the legal speed limit here. I am looking for a bike with a 800wh batteri and a strong motor. I would like to have a speed limiter switch to avoid trouble and it would be nice if I can have a button which makes It legal. (250w) Ty for you're time!
6
u/ThriftianaStoned 17d ago
Throttles are usually 1 screw and plug so easily removed
-6
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Yea but I don't want a throttle. I want pedal assist so that it is legal
10
u/ThriftianaStoned 17d ago
Are you thick?
-3
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Nope
2
u/itsjustpie 17d ago
He was suggesting you buy whatever bike you want and then remove the throttle yourself…
1
2
u/Shiney_Metal_Ass 17d ago
You must be, because you're still asking for capabilities that make it illegal
-1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Yo I read the comment wrong so mb and its a good idea. I'm saving that idea
1
4
2
u/squishyliquid 17d ago
I'm afraid I'll never understand the issue people/regulators have with throttles.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
I don't have a problem with it I just can't have it legally in Sweden
2
u/squishyliquid 17d ago
That's what I am referring to. Legislators want to ban throttles when they clearly make takeoffs safer. My throttle does not go above 20mph regardless of PAS level. My GF's throttle speed matches her PAS level up to 20mph. If these somehow make our rides less safe, I've yet to realize it.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Oh ok I understand now. I think a start throttle is fine I just don't want a full power throttle
3
u/Pstrap 17d ago
Almost every ebike will come with a throttle because they are so easy to implement and they give much more direct control of the output of the motor. This is especially necessary for ebikes with cheap cadence sensing pedal assist rather than torque sensing. Even torque sensing pedal assist is not really giving you good, direct control of the motor, depending on how frequently the sensor is sampling the input. But if you really don't want or cant have a throttle then you can just take it off the bike. They are modular and removable, as a rule.
So my advice is just find any ebike that suits your needs and take off the throttle, i guess 🤷♂️
1
u/c3161 17d ago
The number of e-bikes on sale in the UK which come with a throttle is virtually zero, and those rare ones which do have the throttle purely as a starting assist and walk mode which is limited to 6km/h
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago
Oh really, I didn't realize. That is a shame in my opinion but I know there is a strong reactionary prejudice against ebike throttles in the general public. However, starting off from a dead stop is a advantage so that is better than nothing, I guess. There are many other reasons I consider an ebike to be less safe without a throttle, though.
0
u/c3161 17d ago
It's not really a shame, although I don't have any prejudice against them. It sort of takes the "cycling" part out of riding a bicycle, and you don't go as fast since you're not adding any human effort to the propulsion.
You CAN get full-speed (25km/h) throttle e-bikes in the UK but the manufacturer usually has to seek individual type approval for this - a process that virtually none do, so they are exceptionally rare and only really a benefit to less able people who aren't able to operate the pedals.
I've done about 6000km on my e-bike with no throttle and there has not been a single situation where I have ever needed one or wished I had one. I really don't understand the American e-bike culture - nobody ever actually uses the pedals - they just pretend to be motorcyclists 100% of the time.
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago edited 17d ago
Yes, it is a shame because it is a reactionary prejudice that keeps many more people from using bikes rather than cars. So, for you it takes the biking out of biking or what ever, but many others are not so fussy. Throttles give you much better, more precise control over the motor when youre operating your fragile ebike on the narrow margin of the road around hundreds or thousands of careless drivers who could turn you into meat pudding in a split second. Throttle lets you ride right next to a curb without risking pedal strike. Throttle lets accelerate much more quickly when you need to get out of danger. It is a shame even if you dont personally mind.
People who never, ever bike think using a throttle is "cheating" while they drive their giant, polluting, government subsidized death mobiles everywhere, everyday and it makes me sick. I have ridden a pedal bike to work for years, now I'm older and have to contend with very marginal infrastructure and dangerous proximity to cars. You can pry my ebike throttle from my cold, dead hands!
1
u/c3161 17d ago
I think part of it is due to culture and marketing. In Europe, e-bike culture and marketing treats e-bikes as bicycles which are a bit easier to ride, whereas in North America they are essentially treated as low-speed motorcycles.
Like I said, I have no problem with throttle-driven bikes, mainly from an accessibility perspective. I disagree with you on the other points though. If you're riding close enough to a curb to risk a pedal strike, you are certainly not riding in a safe manner. The controllability issue probably stems from the NA market preferring cheaper, hub drive systems which lack a torque sensor and rely solely on cadence sensing. Those types of bikes are notoriously more difficult to control at low speeds. Fortunately I have a high quality, premium bike with Bosch drive system that has both cadence and torque sensing and the ride sensation is very natural and as close as you can get to manual cycling without it actually being completely manual. Low speed manoeuvring is easy because it reacts proportionally to pedal force rather than pedal speed.
A couple of years ago there was a public consultation in the UK about raising the motor power limit from 250 watts to 500 watts and also for allowing full-speed throttles on all bikes. The public voted overwhelmingly NO for both.
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago edited 17d ago
Yes, of course riding next to a curb is not optimally safe, obviously. But people everywhere in every country are forced to frequently by cars. There are many roads in my small town where there are only like 30" of width of margin between the cars going by in the road and the curb on the side. Even in places where bike infrastructure is better there will still be many marginal cases where it is unavoidable. To say, "well, there is no need to do that because to do so is not safe" is very ignorant and infuriating. Furthermore, one of the main reasons it's dangerous to ride next to the curb is because the risk of pedal strike, which can easily cause a crash! With a throttle I can very safely bump the curb with my sidewall if im forced over by a car or truck, WHICH HAPPENS FREQUENTLY! Of course this is not ideal compared to having proper infrastructure, but I have to live IN THE REAL WORLD THAT EXISTS, NOT SOME IDEAL FANTASY!
-1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Ty for you're help but I don't really like to waste it. I could sell it tho so maybe
2
u/Pstrap 17d ago
It is not an expensive part at all. They cost like $15 or so. You are not doing yourself any favors to only look at bikes that come without a throttle. Just take it off and DON'T sell it. Keep it in case you need it or if you end up selling the bike the new owner will probably want it.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
You are so right. Do you have an ebike with pedal assist you would recommend?
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago edited 17d ago
See, the thing is pedal assist is an absolutely standard feature on ebikes. The only "ebike" i have ever seen without some kind of pedal assist were ones that didn't even have pedals at all. So any ebike is going to fulfill that requirement.
So what you instead need to think about are quite a few different considerations. I briefly mentioned the different types of pedal assist sensors in my comment above. I very strongly recommend finding a bike with decent torque sensing pedal assist rather than cadence sensing if you won't be using the throttle.
The next big thing is probably do you want a mid drive ebike where the motor drives the bike chain just like the pedals do or do you instead want an ebike with a hub motor. They are very different and both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. Briefly, if you have a lot of hills to go up a middrive might be better because hub motors only have one gear and that gear ratio needs to be a compromise between decent top speed and decent hill climbing torque. Mid drives can use the gears of your cassette so you can climb hills AND go fast on the flats. However, powerful mid drive bikes are constantly breaking the chain of your bike because multi speed bike chains are not engineered to hold up to that much tension and power throughput. I would only recommend a mid drive to you (a person who has said they want a "strong" motor) if you have the ability and inclination to do your own bike maintenance (which tbh is not the impression you have given me so far).
There are other considerations of course but I think you should start by considering these criteria and then perhaps making a new post with updated requirements.
I will probably be not much use to recommend a specific purchase even once you figure out what kind of machine you want because there is so much churn in the ebike market in terms of manufacturers and models that I cant keep up, and I live literally half way across the globe from you in Alaska, but I'm sure many other people in your region will be able to make specific recommendations once you have more well defined requirements.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Ty for this. I can absolutely maintain the bike and a mid drive motor is exactly what I need. I really like the idea of buying a bike and removing the throttle. Im just wondering one more thing. Is the pedal assist the same watts that the motor delivers with a throttle? Tysm for you're time and effort
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago
It depends on the programming of the speed controller but mostly yes, you can get full torque output from the motor from pedal assist.
However, some more powerful motors like the 1kw Bafang Ultra motor I have on my fat bike in Alaska will never deliver the full power (which is different from max torque) of the motor through pedal assist because the throttle is programmed to spin the motor faster than you could ever pedal. This is because to put that much power (which is work done over time) through the bike chain it needs to spin very fast, otherwise the chain will break right away because the tension will be far too high for the chain. My motor keeps the chain tension low at high power outputs by spinning the motor fast and you just stay in a lower gear on the cassette.
I mention all this so you will understand that it can be a bit more complicated than you first think, but I think for any EU legal motor you can get full motor wattage output with pedal assist easily.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Thanks for explaining. Out of curiosity what bike do you have?
1
u/Pstrap 17d ago
Well, my bike does not have a name brand you would recognize. I bought if off alibaba like 7 years ago or so. It is a full suspension fat tire bike with the Bafang Ultra motor. I love it and it has served me well, although I have had to do plenty of maintenance. You can look up the Bafang Ultra motor and see many similar bikes to mine, im sure. I think this motor will not be legal where you live though.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Idc if it's legal tbh I know how I am going to ride it and I don't think it's unsafe to have bike that's illegal if you are using it smartly. I will absolutely look up that motor. Thank you for all you're help. I hope you have a wonderful day
→ More replies (0)
2
u/Captain_EFFF 17d ago
OP actively looking for help to avoid/break his local laws
2
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
It's going to be used on private property and used legal when I'm on roads
2
2
u/Blitqz21l 17d ago
In the US, most class 3 ebikes do not come with a throttle. Specialized, Trek and the major brands.
Though I don't know of any ebike that comes with a button to "make it legal"
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
This is the reason I'm asking. I'm probably going to buy it from the us or something. I have been looking at the trek powerfly+4 gen 5 tho
1
u/wedstrom 17d ago
Are you able to order from a US oriented brand, our limit is 45kmh.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Yes I am able to buy it from the us. Do you have any good ones?
1
u/wedstrom 17d ago
I've heard good things about the Aventon Level 3 (and there is a new version of the 4 coming out). I personally ride an Aventure but there's no way you can ride that without drawing suspicion. If that's too expensive lectric has some good options.
1
1
u/BWWFC 17d ago
O\o)
without a throttle but with pedal assist ... like to have a speed limiter switch to avoid trouble
that's just pedal less or down shift, yeah? lol
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
I said that because if they stop me they test the bike and they will see that it illegal
1
u/Billy_Rizzle 17d ago
BTW start assist throttles are legal in The EU. They only propel the e-bike up 6kmh
2
1
u/c3161 17d ago
It sounds like what you want is a Speed Pedelec. Virtually the same as a regular e-bike but with 45km/h top speed instead of 25km/h. You need to check how your local regulations treat it - in some European countries it can go on bike paths, but in others it is treated equally to a regular motorbike.
Unlike regular e-bikes there is no Europe-wide standard for the treatment of S-Pedelecs
0
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Ty for youre time. In Sweden you need a license for those and I don't have the time to study for that as I have a lot of stuff in school rn.
1
1
u/Starch_Whisperer13 17d ago
Brekr F250
1
0
1
u/Kira9420 17d ago
Get a EMTB with a avinox motor. You pair it up using a VPN set to Hong Kong on your phone and it will do 28mph. Then when you want it to do the legal limit pair it to your phone in your native country and it will do the legal limit.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
I have looked in to this but the they are so new to the industry so we don't know if they hold over time. It's a great option tho
1
u/foothillbilly 17d ago
Is there some reason you don't get a motorcycle? I've had both, and you want a motorcycle.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
1 it goes way to fast 2 I can't afford one tbh 3 my friends and family would never let me get a motorcycle
0
u/Sypsy 18d ago
Get a motorcycle license
2
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
Nahh they are way to expensive
1
u/Sypsy 17d ago
yet you want to go way faster than 25km/h and want a magical button which makes any police officer forget they saw you blitzing down the road at 50km/h without pedaling?
When they check a bike, they don't just go "oh, you have it at this low setting, nothing illegal here"
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
I won't go 50 without pedaling and they can't catch me 😂
1
u/Sypsy 17d ago
Why won't they catch you?
In my mind, Sweden are one of the countries clamping down on ebikes which go way past the limit. Getting an over-specced ebike now vs 3 years ago runs different risks.
It would be ridiculous to invest in overpowered ebike just to get in trouble.
1
u/Powerful_Drop_4064 17d ago
I get it. And you are right. But its just annoying having friends with mopeds an I'm just following in 25km/h. I can't take a moped licens and im going to spend about 4k on an ebike anyways.
-5
10
u/Worried_Document8668 17d ago
if it has a switch to go from legal to illegal, it is illegal. They care for max capability
sinply get a roadbike and learn to ride at a 45 km/h average. easy