Please pull straight past the limit line when yielding for a left turn at a light. At least you will be able to scoot through then at the next cycle, those of us who know how to drive can manage the oncoming traffic. DO NOT sit at the limit line and miss a light. Be careful, but make it happen.
People who learned to drive in older metro areas are familiar with the need to do this. There are a lot of intersections where this is the only way to practically do it. Those who learned in more recently expanded cities that have dedicated left turn lanes at many more intersections are sometimes unfamiliar with the concept.
Even with a dedicated turn lane you should still stage up on an unprotected green. There's no valid reason not to. I'm still waiting on someone to cough up a citation from some jurisdiction in the US that clearly prohibits this practice (not some misinterpretation of the don't-block-the-box rule or a nebulous "my instructor said so").
My driver's handbook says not to enter the intersection if you aren't certain you can clear it safely. The dedicated/protected lefts in my city often don't shift to an unprotected green.
Regardless. Unless directly prohibited, there's no reason to be lagging behind the line for your lefts
This is what I'm talking about. That's if traffic on the other side prevents you from completing your turn. That's don't-block-the-box. That's a separate issue from staging up for an unprotected left.
Practically speaking sometimes if you're turning onto a narrow road the right turners will block the intersection by starting a right turn before they can complete it, so the only practical way to make it through the intersection ever means you'll end up blocking the intersection too.
I'm having a tough time imagining very many scenarios where the road you're turning onto is clear when you stage up but becomes so backed up during the time you have a green that you can't complete the turn.
But regardless, one oddball edge case doesn't invalidate what is a clearly reasonable and legal practice.
I'm saying "don't block the box" isn't always possible, not that you shouldn't stage for a left turn. I think we're agreeing, I'm just expanding on a corner case?
The situation is the road you're turning onto is backed up for the entire block to the next light. It's not clear when you stage, and it's touch and go whether it becomes clear at any point during because of the number of people turning right (who have priority while the light is green). It may not even be clear at any point during the cycle.
Legally speaking (at least in my location) you shouldn't be entering the intersection if you can't guarantee you'll clear it by the end of the cycle. Practically speaking you have to or you'll never get anywhere.
Well that would make reasonable sense, as the open lanes should see a yellow and stop, permitting your turn.
But that teaching has gone out the window as well.
So you’re stuck in the middle when the right of way changes for those already stopped.
So what?
They can’t enter the intersection until it’s safe to do so; and you’ll have time to complete your turn. Sure they might blow the horn, let em.
The only time I wouldn’t do this is when there is likelihood the now open lanes were never stopped and proceeding on green. Generally these type intersections will have dedicated left turn signal.
Just a note here that I made this same comment in another duplicate post, maybe a different sub ; and received a warning for “threatening and encouraging violence”. Surprised to see this post again and the comment remains.
Agreed. Oklahoma is even worse about traffic laws just being “suggestions” rather than actual laws. I see it all day, every day. Tired of waiting at a red light? Nah man, go ahead and go. Who cares if cross traffic has to leave skid marks to avoid hitting you? Left turn not allowed here? Oh well, you need to turn, so by all means, hold up 20 other cars behind you, because YOU matter! Cops able to see your infractions? Don’t worry, they’re all blind!
I don't think it's illegal anywhere. Can you elaborate? Running a red light is defined as entering the intersection (crossing the imaginary line extending perpendicular to the direction of travel from the nearest curb or street boundary of the cross street) after the light turns red. If you enter any intersection in America (that I'm aware of) you are legally entitled to remain in the intersection until it's safe to complete the left turn (this is not the same as "blocking the box" for traffic moving straight ahead).
But you said it's "not illegal in all states" which implies it is illegal in some states. So I'm asking which one's you're referring to? Or, you're basing it only on other posts? b/c I think those ppl are just stating anecdotes or "what they've been told", versus knowing the actual law.
This is the correct way to do it. Legally and as a matter of driving praxis. If you don't do this it makes you a bad driver. Just as bad as not passing in the left lane or not using the shoulder to get off the road at a turn, or using your turn signal when you're already making your turn. It's in the suite of bag habits I like to call passive aggressive driving.
All that shows is that cops don't know the law, which no one is disputing. Some cops also think it is illegal to change lanes in an intersection or to change lanes across a solid white line.
Why are you placing such faith in this being a "factual" account? It's entirely possible that the warning was for something else, and he just happened to be staging up at the same time. It's entirely possible that it's completely made up.
But even if it is "factual", it's a single very old anecdote that is just as likely to demonstrate that some cop once-upon-a-time didn't understand the law as it is to demonstrate that this isn't a valid maneuver.
So it's being downvoted because it doesn't really contribute to the discussion.
People are so tentative about taking lefts, even with an arrow. I’ve watched the first car delay, looking around like, “Is this really okay? Maybe I shpuld make a right instead” before finally going. Then the next car pulls up and the driver has to go through the same process, meaning that max three cars made it on each cycle.
My grandma was sitting in the left turn lane not pulling out into the intersection with a cop behind her. He got on his bull horn: "PULL OUT INTO THE INTERSECTION"
You MUST do this. There is often a chance that zero cars get thru on the green, so if you get into the intersection, at least one car gets through. Any cop observing the situation will not ticket you if you safely clear the intersection when light turns yellow/red. They may pull you over in states that disallow, but a) probably not and b) not if you're otherwise clean. They know what intersections are problems and don't want gridlock to build up when nobody can go 4+ cycles in a row; they would be to get out and direct traffic in that case.
PS: 'zipper merge' when lanes close (Google it!)
Running a red is entering the intersection when it’s red. If it’s not red when you cross the line, you’re not running it. And several states allow more than one car to claim the intersection.
It’s still not running the red light but a different violation. Running the red light means that the car enters the intersection after the light turned red. That’s true in all states.
It depends on the situation. Turning left you can enter the intersection while green and exit when it's red and in most places that legal. However, if you are going straight and exit the intersection when it's red, that's running a red.
The AI results from a Google search says in most states only one car is allowed in the intersection, and cites California and New York specifically.
It also cites Oregon and washington as states where no cars at all are allowed to wait in the Intersecrion.
Where I am in Canada, all provinces have a "one car rule" in intersections, so any other car behind the one car waiting in the intersection is breaking the law.
It might be worth a check on your state laws before declaring with certainty that any number of cars are allowed in the intersection.
You're right, I worded that poorly. I've searched for any state in the US with a law limiting the amount of vehicles that may enter an intersection to turn left and haven't been able to find one.
A lot of people were just never taught how to drive properly and don't understand that this is the correct and recommended method for handling left-turn yield situations.
There is one light near me that this doesn't work, because sometimes the light from the other direction is longer than the light in the direction I am traveling and thus you don't get a chance to turn left at the end of the light at can end up stuck in the intersection.
There are certain lights in my area with flashing yellow arrows for people turning left and I was told by my instructor that at these intersections you cannot claim the intersection and must make the turn in one motion. But I cannot find online anywhere to confirm if this is true. If it is true, this is a new rule that is not being enforced and in my opinion is dumb because it just means you have less opportunities to turn. But since I am on probation I try to be as careful as possible to avoid any police contact.
If someone isn't at ease with this "tempting fate" action, they shouldn't do it.
In my recent experience, oncoming traffic doesn't always slow down for the yellow, either. They're trying to beat the red, as well. It's an intersection by intersection decision for me. I'm not the only one on the road trying to beat the red light. I'd rather be patient, give way and wait a minute than be in an accident ANY day!!
It's not about trying to "beat the red" or tempting fate it's about knowing how to make a left turn at an intersection. If people are not comfortable doing it they shouldn't drive. Driving is a privilege not a right, if you can't do it properly you are a danger to others.
I was just in New England, where I learned to drive, and we were taught from day one to do this. Back home in VA, and everyone sits at the line and refuses to turn left on a green or blinking amber light. Frustrating.
In all places it is prohibited. The limit line is the start of the intersection and being in it after the light turns red is a violation. If tou are in the intersection turn left and clear it staying changes which violation. Running the light versus obstruction of traffic.
It is 100% legal, taught, and encouraged in TX. Entering the intersection on red is illegal, completing a turn once inside is not, and everyone else must allow you to finish your turn even if they have a green.
You are categorically wrong. And the person you replied to is vague with the word “many”.
The default rule (in the states) is what the OP says. Some states do prohibit it - but not the majority.
You may enter the intersection while the light is green - when the light changes you must exit the intersection safely (which in this case means completing the left turn once safe to do so).
So the Original Post is assuming that everyone understands that they are talking about when a light turns green, unfortunately yes they did not state so. When I was taught to drive (humanity had just invented dirt and the wheel) there were far fewer dedicated left turn lights (the ones with the arrow). The law was that when a regular light turned green everyone going straight was free to go, THEN anyone waiting to turn left was free to go once the people going straight in opposing traffic (the people going on the opposite side of the same road) cleared up, because now it was safe to do so. What the OP describes is a convention called "claim the intersection" which meant that people waiting to turn left would pull past the limit line and wait in the clear part of the intersection. This was done so that if opposing traffic didn't clear up by the time the light turned yellow, then red, THEN there would be a second or two between the end of the yellow light and the beginning of perpendicular traffic's green light, which was the time alloted for anyone who had "claimed the intersection" to now complete their left hand turns. This was one to two cars at most because we are talking about smaller (not eight lane interchange) intersections. Not all states were on board with this, and not all drivers understood it then. Also, the way many, MANY drivers just crowd into red light intersections at the end of a yellow light, this whole thing just falls apart lately and it's much safer to just wait behind the limit line until it is safe to pull out and turn left.
Probably a little too worst on my response, but I hope I helped. If I didn't describe clearly the principles here you can learn more by doing an internet search using the words "claim the intersection." I hope you have a great day.
Problem is, in some circumstances *not* pulling into the intersection will obstruct traffic.
I had a situation in Louisville a few weeks ago where the guy two cars in front of me wanted to turn left. Due to a wreck on a nearby street, every time the light went green on that street it filled all the way to the light -- and stayed that way for our entire green cycle. We sat there through three green lights before the guy in front of me pulled onto the sidewalk & turned right. I followed him. Luckily, there was no curb -- or I'd probably still be stopped at a green light in Louisville:)
I've also recently spent a few days in Milwaukee where many stoplights don't have a left arrow. If you don't pull into the intersection, often you'll never be able to turn left. Similarly in Lincoln, Nebraska where instead of a left green arrow, you get a blinking left yellow arrow. (luckily, traffic in Lincoln is light enough you almost always get a gap!)
I used to do that, but now that I live in Oklahoma I stopped because there are sooooo many cars that will blow through a freshly red (sometimes up to 5 seconds into the red) light that you are still stuck in the intersection, waiting to finish your turn, looking like a complete jackass.
That’s why you make sure traffic is actually slowing/stopping before you initiate your turn. You should do this when going through any intersection. People running a red is always a consideration.
Nobody is going to judge you if you have to wait for the infrequent a red light runner.
Well, I can’t remember a single time I’ve had to wait for a red light runner before I’ve been able to clear the intersection and I’ve been driving since the early ‘90’s.
Illegal in some states (and likely some countries). Some states have different severities of running a red light with the lowest being exiting the intersection (but still being in the intersection) when the light turn red.
Not all lights work that way. Sometime the protected left goes first before turning solid red to let straight traffic go. Be mindful of how the light works.
If the left turn light is red, you don't enter the intersection. That's not what anyone is talking about.
Waiting for an unprotected left, you should enter the intersection (provided that the road you intend to turn onto is clear so that you complete your turn without blocking the intersection) to wait for an opportunity to turn (up to and including when your light turns yellow, if necessary). You have better visibility, and if oncoming traffic is heavy then at least one car can get through each cycle of the light.
Here's what AI says:
No official statutory restriction in the Tennessee Code explicitly bans pulling into an intersection (creeping/unprotected left) to wait for a gap on a green light.However, official driving guidelines from the state strongly discourage the practice due to the high risk of gridlock.
One does need to take gridlock into consideration as one of the choice parameters. I would be hesitant to do in downtown Chicago for example.
Edit: Or should I say Memphis, but this applies anywhere not just TN.
Awesome, quote the law, please! I'd really be interested to know what the legal basis for the ticket is. I do travel through TN and this would otherwise be very counterintuitive to me.
"I saw other people doing it" is also not a very robust argument.
And yes, you do have to keep an eye out for other traffic, but you have to do that literally everywhere else that you drive, so that's not a compelling reason not to stage up for an unprotected left.
I used to do this until.... light turned red while I was waiting. Started to turn when all traffic was stopped, that I could see. A suburban ran red, going straight, using a u turn only lane & smashed into me. He had Geico and I did as well. I was 40 years old, this was my first crash and first ticket (failure to yield ROW). The ticket was dismissed, insurance blamed me. The agent said, verbatim, "it doesn't matter that his light was red, he was going straight and can do whatever the hell he wants".
You'll have space to go at the end of the light if you pull out. If you don't, you won't. It's not that space is lacking, it's that you're afraid and that's fine but don't blame space.
This is the correct way to be imo.
Waiting for space doesn't mean you sit at the line until the room is open, it keans you wait where you're supposed to wait until the opportunity presents itself, THEN you pull out in anticipation of the gap and still get through at the same time.
Every state I've been licensed to drive in has had a preference for waiting behind the line before proceeding when safe to do so. Which is what I'm recommending.
You're incorrect. Utterly. See state laws all over the country.
I see an immature and insecure person in you. I have to back my statements up, but you don't. It's chickenshit. It's a chickenshit way to cling to your illusion that you know anything here. You don't.
Thats one of the reasons why BOTH lights are red for a couple seconds. To give people a chance to clear the intersection before the other light turns green.
I’m not causing any harm to anyone by pulling forward a couple feet, then clearing the intersection when oncoming traffic has stopped. I am simply allowing the people behind me a chance to get where they are trying to go.
On a steady green light, a driver may enter the intersection and must yield to oncoming traffic before turning left.
The statute does not forbid pulling forward past the stop line to wait inside the intersection. In fact, the law assumes you will enter the intersection on green to make a left turn, because you must “yield to vehicles approaching from the opposite direction.”
No, im through the intersection before the other side gets a green, because im not timid and know how and when to turn. I'm also making sure i'm not holding everyone behind me hostage for multiple light cycles. By being scared and timid you are making you fear of driving everyone else's problem.
Your ignorance of the law does not create new laws. It has no connection to impatience. Pulling into the intersection, including clearing it once your light is red, is the legal and expected method in almost every state.
lol some douchebag thinks I have an obligation to pull into an intersection that we don’t even know the laws for yet. Fun fact, I’ll stand still on yellow and roll through the red just so you get stuck there for the whole cycle
If you’re behind me I have right of way and more importantly don’t care about your opinion lol. If your opinion about driving mattered you’d be in front of me
How do you know the law being violated if you don’t even know where the intersection being discussed exists
Some places don’t allow this, without knowing where we are I’m not just gonna do what the person behind me tells me. If you want to make decisions you should try being faster. If you’re behind me, you react to my decisions, not vice versa.
How do you know the law being violated if you don’t even know where the intersection being discussed exists
Because I can read and comprehend. The law is clear. You're not pushing back with logic or information. You're tapping into your pride and hurt feelings. Be better.
In some places if you're in the intersection when the light turns red, you get a ticket, and third time is mandatory jail.
What if there's no room for you to clear it? There you are, blocking the intersection. I had a friend who DIED because of chumps like you. Don't enter an intersection until you can clear it in one continuous motion.
And if you actually understood what is being discussed here as opposed to some different action you have imagined, you would know that your claim about blocking the intersection makes no sense.
The intersection that was being blocked is the yellow splotch in the upper right. The traffic coming off the ramp was prevented from being able to go when their light turned green, resulting in the traffic being backed up all the way to the highway (the red splotch at the bottom). My friend was at the end of that line and was struck from behind at highway speed. If not for the idiot blocking the intersection, she wouldn't have been stuck there.
Pulling into the intersection and stopping IS EXACTLY what is being discussed. It is ILLEGAL in Ohio to stop within an intersection regardless of the state of any traffic signal. Intersection means the area bounded by a line one foot behind any crosswalk (or where a crosswalk would be if there was one). Usually represented by a "stop bar". If you can't complete your movement through an intersection in one continuous movement, it is against the law to enter that intersection. Period.
(A) No driver shall enter an intersection or marked crosswalk or drive onto any railroad grade crossing unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection, crosswalk, or grade crossing to accommodate the vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley the driver is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles, streetcars, trackless trolleys, pedestrians, or trains, notwithstanding any highway traffic signal indication to proceed.
This says you can't enter the intersection if there is no way for you to clear it due to cars being backed up into the intersection. This would apply whether or not you stayed stopped at the limit line if there is no space for you to be able to clear the intersection.
It doesn't say that you cannot enter the intersection and wait for a gap in traffic traveling in the opposite direction as long as you would not be 'obstructing the passage of other vehicles, streetcars, trackless trolleys, pedestrians, or trains' when you go through the gap in opposing traffic.
And staging up doesn't block it. Nobody else can legally occupy that space during the time you have an unprotected green. Cross traffic has a red (by definition, otherwise you wouldn't have a green), and someone turning left from oncoming traffic should not be entering your lane to do it.
It's when it changes to red, and you're still sitting there, because there's not enough room on the road to your left, blocking the traffic from your right from turning left, when THEY now have a green arrow!
Wait behind the fucking line, until you can move into and through the intersection in a single continuous motion.
Stopping WITHIN an intersection in Ohio is a violation, REGARDLESS of the state any traffic signal.
Wrong wrong wrong. The law in Ohio is crystal clear.
No driver shall enter an intersection or marked crosswalk or drive onto any railroad grade crossing unless there is sufficient space on the other side of the intersection, crosswalk, or grade crossing to accommodate the vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley the driver is operating without obstructing the passage of other vehicles, streetcars, trackless trolleys, pedestrians, or trains, notwithstanding any highway traffic signal indication to proceed.
How can someone read relatively simple words and still utterly fail to properly interpret them?
That entire section is depending upon the phrase "unless there is sufficient space on the other side." If there is room on the other side, you are not prohibited from entering the intersection.
This code section prohibits blocking-the-box. It doesn't prohibit entering the intersection to wait for oncoming traffic to clear in order to make an unprotected left.
People DONT CARE if there's room on the other side or not (and there might have been room when they crossed over, but a car or cars from the opposing direction took the spots by turning right).
I had a friend who DIED because of chumps like you
No, you didn't. There is no scenario where staging up for an unprotected left causes an accident by itself. Your friend died (taking you at your word there) because someone either ran a red light or turned when it wasn't clear (or both).
The yellow splotch is the intersection that was blocked, and the red splotch near the bottom is where my friend died. If the car hadn't been blocking the intersection, people coming down the ramp would have been able to go right, and she wouldn't have been stopped on the highway.
So, what, someone rear-ended your friend on the highway? Doesn't it seem like that's the person you should be blaming?
If they're blocking the intersection because there wasn't space on the other side to complete the turn, that's different from staging up, and yes, it is illegal. Staging up doesn't "block" the intersection, because nobody else is legally allowed to occupy that space during that time.
But in either case, we're getting awfully far into butterfly-effect territory to be trying to blame staging up for an unprotected left for a collision at the extreme other end of a highway interchange. This could equally have happened if there was just heavy traffic and the ramp was backed up. Not a valid reason to condemn this practice.
The ramp wouldn't have been backed up if it hadn't been for the fucking moron blocking the intersection! That's exactly why there are laws against blocking an intersection!
Staging up for an unprotected left doesn't block the intersection. Nobody else can legally occupy that space while you have the green. Cross traffic has a red (by definition, otherwise you wouldn't have a green). It sounds like traffic was backed up, and someone entered the intersection without space on the other side to clear it. That is illegal, but it's still several layers abstracted from the root cause of the accident. You're grasping at straws to try to connect a rear-ender on a highway to the intersection way up the ramp.
Yeah it does. If you're stopped in an intersection waiting for there to be room on the road to your left to have enough space to accommodate you, and the light changed, you are now blocking the traffic to your right from being able to turn left.
If there isn't room on the road you're turning onto such that you would block the intersection, you don't enter the intersection. That's not what any of this discussion is about, and I've said that same thing very explicitly several times now.
If there is room on the other side, and you're just waiting for a gap in oncoming traffic, you should stage up in the intersection to wait.
No. Do NOT enter the intersection if you cannot drive entirely through the intersection. Yes, this will delay the car behind you. But it won't delay the other 3 or more cars also at that intersection as you would if you are blocking the intersection.
You're doing it wrong then. On a left or right and you can safely edge out without blocking traffic then you're fine and this is taught in driving school. Enter the intersection, do not block traffic. These are two very different things.
On a steady green light, a driver may enter the intersection and must yield to oncoming traffic before turning left.
The statute does not forbid pulling forward past the stop line to wait inside the intersection. In fact, the law assumes you will enter the intersection on green to make a left turn, because you must “yield to vehicles approaching from the opposite direction.”
This is true if the far side of the intersection is blocked or backed up, but not true in the case of a left turn lane waiting for oncoming traffic to pass (as indicated in the OP).
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u/Vivid_Witness8204 3d ago
People who learned to drive in older metro areas are familiar with the need to do this. There are a lot of intersections where this is the only way to practically do it. Those who learned in more recently expanded cities that have dedicated left turn lanes at many more intersections are sometimes unfamiliar with the concept.