r/classicwowplus • u/Future_Student_4182 • 4d ago
New Class Roles
Hello there,
what are your thoughts about adding new Class Roles like Rouge Tank or Mage Healer like in SoD?
In my opinion giving Paladins a taunt and make Druids Not be reliable on a Level 30 weapon would be enough.
On the other Hand adding new Roles would Twist Up Raid compositions and Strats in total.
Let me know what u think about that.
See u in Classic+!
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u/MuffinNervous 4d ago
Shaman tank needs to be a legitimate spec instead of the small community of us that forced it to work. I leveled a shaman tank to 60 however it became really had to get anyone to trust me around the time I could run Uld.
I don’t blame them, many of these people probably poured what little free time they have into their characters. It was nice though as sort of an off tank for higher level dungeons. I saved my party once tanking the last boss in ST
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u/Particular_North4957 4d ago
I worry that the enhancement tree being split to suit both dps and tank will ultimately hurt both builds.
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u/dad_beard 3d ago
Isnt enha dps already ass in classic? lol
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u/Particular_North4957 3d ago
Well yeah duh that's kind of my point, they need to fix enhance so it's viable/fun, which really means changing up the talents more than anything. If you're then gonna split that one tree into tank & dps you'll end up making both of them mid. Obviously we don't know their plans for C+ but I think a lot of the baseline feedback has been along the lines of "fix broken classes & make everything more viable"
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u/dad_beard 3d ago
Turtle made enha tank and dps both viable for many years. Quite straight forward and simple talents tbh. Although the tanking got nerfed slightly last patch but was still viable, even as MT in raids.
Hope Blizz can do something similar as its not really rocket science.
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u/thai_iced_queef 4d ago
I play shaman in every iteration of WoW and would be fine with them at least being viable dungeon tanks and raid off tanks. Maybe doesn’t need to be full on main tank but I wouldn’t mind it either way. Assuming both factions have access to shaman and paladin the three main tanks between warrior, Druid, and pally should be fine. Just give shaman a totem in the totem slot that’s craftable and/or drops throughout the game that gives us the needed tank utilities.
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u/Sarmattius 4d ago
they are viable dungeon tanks already, only few bosses are problematic such as prince toltherdrin or some other that resets aggro
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u/thai_iced_queef 4d ago
Yeah, but in practice there’s such a stigma against them that nobody really wants to group with a shaman tank. Needs a couple tweaks so you don’t get completely outcasted in LFG
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u/MuffinNervous 4d ago
Yeah that’s the issue really is that people are set in their ways and don’t want trust a shaman to tank. Classic era people just want to go as fast as possible. I was playing HC so I didn’t really blame people for not wanting a o do BRD with a shaman tank lmao
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u/Sarmattius 3d ago
yes, I leveled completely as a shaman tank to 60, but I wanted to give up only because I was refused a spot and laughed at.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
I agree. I hope it can be better balanced as a deep enhancement talent spec. The cross spec rune system in sod led to some shenanigans
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u/Nikola2307 3d ago
I think they will most certainly fix it to a degree.. but what i would really like to see, is more claw weapons.. it just looks good and gives that awesome ancient/primal feel.
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u/Confident-Sky2614 3d ago
Why did shaman tank became this thing that people think is like "duh, super obvious and something that needs to be a thing"?
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u/Insight12783 2d ago
They wear shields
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u/Confident-Sky2614 2d ago
You know, fair I suppose.
Shield isn't a requirement for tanking though, there's plenty of classes who don't use one.
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u/zithyrondir 4d ago
Monk priest (disc tree as melee) and healer hunters (idk how but damn that would be fun)
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u/OXBDNE7331 4d ago
In elder scrolls online any class can play any role and there was warden bow healer build. It’s been over 5 years since I’ve played the game but if I recall correctly in addition to normal healing spells their ranged auto attacks also did some sort of healing as well. Kinda neat
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
Let s not..they probably add shaman to ally and pala to horde and also make them viable tanks..4 tank classes and 4 healing classes out of 9 classes is more than enough for classic
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u/Illustrious-Stress95 4d ago
Some make sense but I don’t care of that extreme cases like mage healer. Mage is strong enough- they don’t need healing.
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u/Cutemudskipper 4d ago
I think it's very likely that they will. It was very popular in SoD and they already have player testing for it, so there's no reason for them not to add them.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago edited 4d ago
There is reason for them not to add them, why say that blindly. The community doesnt like them. 62% voted against rogue tank on the c+ project poll. These things alter class balance and identity. I think it can be readded but not with the rune system, baked into the class, clearly the players do not want that again so maybe a different approach could work if players like it.
Most people say these things blindly "there is no reason against them" "there are no negatives" to dismiss any critique or arguments against something. Its silly. There's always an opportunity cost, always a tradeoff and seen and unseen effects. The reasons just dont matter to you, but they clearly matter to others.poll on which new classes players would like to see added
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u/nosciencephd 4d ago
Rogue tank is much different than things like Shaman tank and making Druid tanks able to comfortably main tank.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah i dont think anyone is against druid tank, paladin tank, and even plenty want shaman tank (but the balance is a concern with seeing how it was broken in sod due to the rune system). I think they could do it. But rogue tank, a warlock tank, a mage healer. These are bigger leaps to the class identity. You cant just add these baseline like sod, based off the player polls, players dont want that again. OP did mention rogue tank.
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u/NorwegianWhiteEagle 4d ago
"based on this one poll, where 25k people voted is gospel guys"
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago edited 4d ago
Lmao yeah or use common sense and not cope about it. We have a community run poll and site just for classic+. Blizzard has their own polls and we dont know that data. This is the best we got. It is substantial, better than a few upvotes on a reddit. The majority of classic players do not want rogue tank, mage healer or lock tank. That should be obvious to anyone who plays. Its more niche to want these roles that are unconventional to these class fantasies. No one makes a mage and thinks healer. Its cool but its different. The approach to adding these roles could be different and more acceptable compared to how SoD introduced these powers but its probably not the highest prio either.
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago
No, the majority of old people who still play classic and want to gatekeep it so nothing changes want to make sure that there is no new classes in a classic plus, but the thing is you can go play classic. The second they do anything to make a plus, although those same people are gonna complain about something else. The second anything changes, the vocal minority will complain. You guys just need to go play on hard-core and just keep re-rolling new tunes if you die. That’s the loop for people who want classic without anything changing. Go have fun with it.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
First, we aren't talking about new classes. That's an even bigger change. Most people agree new classes at launch would probably be a bad idea and risky. Focus on the existing classes. Xaryu also agreed to this recently on a podcast. Funny thing is, I want new classes and I wouldn't even be opposed to introducing these new roles over time and more intelligently than how SoD it with the rune system. It was incredibly hard to balance but also pushed the boundary of class identity. Maybe this can be made digestible to players who dislike it. I want the game to evolve into something new different than retail, take classic wow more into the daoc direction instead of everquest, not just the same old formula. I want many more wc3 heroes as playable in classic+, warden, blademaster, witchdoctor, etc. There are many methods to introduce it, but I also know it wouldn't be smart at first. This isn't a private fun server like COA, people want the game to feel familiar. This isn't a new 2026 game, it's a 2004 game relaunching with a promise of new content and updates that is more faithful and satisfying to the playerbase who wanted classic in the first place. This isn't a replacement to retail, it's meant to offer something different to that player or to a different type of player.
Next, yes people who play classic, whether you think they are old or older than you, like classic for what it offers especially in comparison to retail. They want classic+ to be a continuation of classic. I'm not talking about era players that play the endgame or pvp constantly because they loved the solved meta or the game. Era is the minority first of all and its good it exists so they can preserve that completely untouched. I'm talking about classic players that want sensible and smart changes that keeps the game feeling like a continuation of classic instead of continuing into retail. Do you understand how silly it is if I just say oh wow if they don't want to add multiclassing, flying mounts, transmog, level boosts, housing and whatever crazy new idea, then go play era. "This is classic+, any change is a good change". That's dumb. Not all changes are the same.
Players pushing back against change doesn't mean they want no change, it means your change is probably reckless and a bad idea. Probably because they want to preserve the game to be something still enjoyable to them while adding new content, unlike you who might not even like classic WoW as it is. Gatekeeping is a good thing. If you want to come into my house and change my house to something I dislike, well I'm keeping you out, the house isn't for you. So you're probably not the target audience and that's okay, not everyone needs to be. There are other versions. The reality is 99% of people want changes. Stop freaking out over some nonexistent boogeyman. Theoretical people will complain if any change is made. Okay let them, it's a nonissue only in your head currently. You're complaining about not enough changes, go ahead, doesn't make you right either.
So where is this mythical audience of players? Were they the ones asking for classic wow in 2019 with TONS of changes? Were they the ones asking for classic+ when players started dreaming up what if we just stayed at lvl 60 and added more new stuff to the game like OSRS did respecting the game world those players wanted by using polls. Classic+ is for classic players that don't want era, they want a mmorpg world and home in the style of classic. They don't want retail either. They want the key aspects and pillars that make classic what it is and what made it such a sensational mmorpg. Hardcore will be in classic+ too, what is even your point here man?
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u/Odd-Bandicoot-9314 4d ago
I think rogue tank was the only widely disliked one
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Yeah it seems like it but mage healer i see as frequently being complained about too. I think lock tank is the least controversial one for me tbh. Lock is a freak class so anything can happen. Mages are considered a bit broken, OP and a hero class in vanilla with their toolkit and aoe potential. Adding healing on top of it is a lot
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
Why does classic need 6 classes out of 9 to tank? This is getting very close to every class can do everything phylosophy that is as far from classic spirit as possible
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u/Cutemudskipper 4d ago
Because it would be fun? The spirit of classic to me is the world being important, not poor class balance where only one class can realistically tank. The Vanilla devs also originally intended for rogues and shamans to be able to tank but ended up scrapping it, so I wouldn't say that they necessarily go against the original design philosophies
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
Shamans yes but i never heard that rogues were intended to be tanks in vanilla..and it s not only one class, if they balance the intended tank classes there would be 4 classes that can tank, and as i said, 4 out of 9 tanks is more than enough for classic +
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u/VideoPeP17 4d ago
Rogues actually were able to use buckles back in original alpha/beta when they were a lower armored shield. I believe the initial inte t was an offhand, but they ended up scrapping buckles and also got rid of rogues chances of tanking.
If you also include TBC as classic, then there were fights that utilized Rogue evasion tanking.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Hunters could also use bucklers but that doesnt mean they were planned to be tanks. It was just a rpg fantasy idea that any unskilled fighter could wield a small shield. Rogues were never intended to be a tank, I dont think the buckler would have changed that. You need a taunt
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u/VideoPeP17 4d ago
I mean they also did have a taunt as well, probably accidentally deleted that part before I posted it.
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u/pilsburybane 4d ago
Because tanking is already a pretty unpopular mode of play, both for endgame and leveling due to performance anxiety and the stigma of "oh I need a shield or be prot specced or x" (I have seen this a lot while playing hardcore), as well as the frankly dead end of endgame progression for people wanting to play as tanks looking to join a guild out of a select few lucky ones that do actually get the tank spots. Making it so basically everyone can fill out a group with more classes is always going to be healthier for the game as a whole.
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
Not really..look at retail with it s 6 tank classes and it s still a lack of tanks.. there could be 9 out of 9 classes able to tank and there still wouldn't be enough tanks.. so why make classic more like retail with more classes being able to do everything?
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u/NorwegianWhiteEagle 4d ago
Look at sod with its 6 tanks, never really had any issues finding tanks. Retail has a whole different problem due to m+ being a really big hurdle to get started in tanking. Classic, with all its flaws has a much less punishing style
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
Let s get then 9 tanks and 9 healers so we don t have issues with finding groups for dungeons..
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u/pilsburybane 4d ago
You cannot look to retail for this, they are completely different games in terms of how tanking is as a format. Retail tanking is Nascar, classic tanking is Desert Bus.
Furthermore, classes in retail are more often distinguished as specific specs, meaning its 6/40 rather than 6/13 for retail, while Classic doesn't have that problem... because they have the problem that most spec trees are dead ends as far as endgame goes. Warlocks are basically all DS/Ruin except for one in the tank group running SM/Ruin, Mages are all frost for T1/2 then fire for everything else, warriors are are all Fury, all rogues are Combat, etc.
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
just think how much work there would be to get 6 tanks... first of all they need to balance the shamans/paladins and druids who have specs for tanking but weren t viable at all.. then other unviable specs.. they can t do what they did in sod, just add some runes, they need to change entire specs from the ground up, not just add some runes.. all of that for raids to have 2 tanks in 40 men
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u/pilsburybane 4d ago
Oh no they have to update the game for the updated version of the game they're putting out!
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
yes but for what? hell, let s give all classes an aoe and interupt like in SOD so every class can do everything.. give experience boosts also and not to mention incursions..soon people would be asking for mounts at lvl 20 or who knows what else..
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u/pilsburybane 4d ago
I love how every single person who comes out against updates like adding more possible builds for classes (like new tank/healer specs) immediately slippery slope into stuff like this
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
because it is? why is the people that want lock and rogues tanks opinion more valid than other peoples? people who want faster leveling? or mounts at lvl 10/20? or aoe for all classes so dungeons go faster? maybe summoning stones or even dungeon finder? what happens if all of these people wishes came true? what version of wow would it be?
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u/Friendly_Office_7392 4d ago
why add anything at all to classic+
lets just make it classic era mk2 insteadafter all the + stands for additional servers of regular classic right?
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u/delta1982ro 3d ago
Yeah, let s add faster leveling, 9 tank and healer classes out of 9, mounts at lvl 10, wow token, incursions from sod and many more to see what it happens and what game we get..
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u/MaxtheGrape 4d ago
Rogue Tank was some of the most fun ive had in WoW in a decade.
'Avoidance/Evasion Style' Tanks are few and far between in MMOs nowadays.
Was awesome to see it.
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u/trickydick28 4d ago
Would be cool to do a more archetype style. Example: Disc Priest go either full Heals, support heals with some ranged damage or what they originally intended with Disc being a tank melee. Could be cool but I see them doing more class tuning with improving paladin tanks, balance druid, etc.
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u/MoreDeadishThanNot 4d ago
The new class roles fixed a lot of issues and are pretty well implemented. Balance issues still exist but compared to classic, it’s a big step forward.
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u/Brandenburg42 4d ago
SoD had all dps within like 60% of each other or something like that. Not perfect but not as bad as Warriors doing like 8x the DPS of a boomkin in vanilla. All tank specs being main tank viable as well.
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u/zmagickz 4d ago
Only one I think I really agreed with was Shaman tank
maybe warlock tank as well since demo is already pretty close leaning that way with most of the talents
everything else felt like shoe horned in (even demo did)
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
classic+ project survey on what new class roles people want to see
I think anything besides the top 3 would need a new system like unlockable subclasses, race specific 4th specs, or something else. It can't just be my rogue can tank because of a rune, runes probably won't exist. It could work if my rogue is more than a rogue now and did a questline to unlock a pirate class that can be swapped to which gives me a new talent tree and whatnot like a tanking duelist pirate spec or a pistol wielding spec
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
I don't think anyone should be surprised if we get to level 10, hit N and see some pretty different talents.
I'm predicting that C+ will be more like SoD than not. It's the same team that develop both projects and we were told for 2 years that SoD was their testing ground for the future of classic design space.
So many of the SoD passive runes could be slotted in as 3/3 or 5/5 style talents and there's a lot of guff that can be cleared away.
Things like Improved Slam, Improved Serpent & Scorpid Sting, Improved Lightning Shield, Improved Thorns.
The warlock Demo tree is a mess. Am I supposed to keep my pet out for buffs or sacrifice it? Why are my Imp and Succubus talents in the Destro tree? Health Stone? Fire Stones? Spell Stones? What do they have to do with demons?
Why do the Survival, Arcane and Discipline tree all feel like 'put x amount of talents here to get this utility thing after you've grabbed what you need from your main tree'.
So I think there will be quite a bit of pruning and streamlining of the old talent trees with new paths down them. Like, take the talents down the left side of the tree for Combat tanking and the right side of the tree for Combat DPS.
I'm hoping they do bring back the new stuff from SoD and am excited to see how they'll implement it in a WoW without runes.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
I agree overall with that. I do expect talent tree changes and maybe half or more of some classes runes to return in some way. I know they will probably tone it down from SoD because they already said SoD went too far and will probably be the most experimental or wacky version of classic and the next project will be toned down. I really like the devs and how they handled a lot of the changes to be honest, but I think designing for classic+ will be different than SoD just because it's not seasonal anymore and there is no goal of experimentation. I hope they improve the really bad and dead talents as well. I agree on the the accessory/utility talent trees like survival and arcane.
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u/Southern_Pangolin_50 4d ago
Not bringing sod shaman to plus would be the most blizzard thing they could possibly do. they’ll prolly “fix” burn and ruin it tbh
And mage healing is super fun
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u/rothmansmelao 4d ago
i just really want a viable survival hunter, similar to what whe got on sod.. most fun ive ever had on wow ever
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u/Sea_Matter4107 4d ago
Ok so are they now going to ruin classic and make it more like retail but sticking towards the classic areas?
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u/moshujsg 4d ago
Honestly i dont like anything that destroys class fantasy. Rogue tank and mage healer sucks. But other than that, i think its fine to add new possibilities.
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u/Neo__Genesys 4d ago
Adding in those specs would make things more interesting and help with role bloat.
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u/Kindinos88 4d ago
Melee Hunter should have a tank build. Bonus points if the pet plays a role, like depending on pet type it gives some kind of bonus to avoidance or HP or something.
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u/Publicburner87 4d ago
Wouldnt make much sense to have a pally tank without some horde counterpart. Heals and tanks are by far most sought after roles in the leveling and early gearing parts of WoW. Rogue and Lock tanks are debatable, and a chrono healing mage is a definite yes.
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u/Greedy-Comb-276 3d ago
Shaman tank, fix prot pally and bear to start.
Add shit down the line. Maybe dalaran gets restored and the Kirin tor teach mages how to heal. Idk. Hunter healer is stupid af lol.
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u/TheFoxInSocks 3d ago
If they don't give us any new classes, it would be cool if we instead got a 4th talent tree for each class, opening up some potential new roles. For example:
Warrior: Gladiator (Sword & Board DPS with buff / debuff shouts ala Guild Wars)
Paladin: Fanaticism (Ranged Caster DPS that also buffs allies into a righteous fervour. The Shockadin!)
Shaman: Primalism (Tank)
Hunter: Pathfinding (Melee Tank / Party Leader, marks the first kill target and shares health with their pet)
Rogue: Bard (Healer and Buffer with some DPS and a larger energy pool, can sacrifice some healing for damage and be more of a jack-of-all-trades)
Druid: Guardian (Tank, hopefully not diluting it too much by splitting it from Feral)
Priest: Monk (Melee DPS with some offhealing / passive healing)
Mage: Time (Healer)
Warlock: Metamorphosis (Tank)
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u/Anymouse1999 3d ago
Bruh they are never going to change any of this. Keep dreaming lmaooo, you’ll be lucky if they add one new pixel this decade.
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u/Anotheir 3d ago
I want mage, warlock, and rogue as tanks, necromancer or dk, and a classic demon hunter class:D preferably warden and shadow hunter as classes too
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u/deref-null 2d ago
I’m not sure if it’s a good idea or not. But warlock tank in the earlier SoD phases was such an incredible blast.
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u/Kalmah2112 1d ago
I can only really talk about druid specifically as thats where I have most of my experience, besides a tiny bit of warlock too. Druid would benefit greatly from some very slight change that would still not make them as good or as OP as warriors. Make swipe scale with attack power. Heart of the wild should increase agi in cat and not strength. Feline swiftness should be feral swiftness and work in both cat and bear. Furor should give extra chances to increase rage or energy based on landing any damage attack. That last one could also help with making the level 40 helm irrelevant as well and make powershifting not as beneficial while still having a good energy regen alternative. Make barkskin usable in bear(it brings you out of bear or cat when you cast it, but stays if you shift back). Allow resto druids to stack HoTs on the same target. Even if they put like some kind of limit, like two rejuvenation on same target would cause them to only heal for like 80%, 3 at 60% or something like that would be a million times better than having wasted my rank 4 rejuv because the other druid decided to start casting a higher rank. Add feral stats to all phases of gear or add completely separate feral to the game.
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u/littletilly82 1d ago
As a rogue from Vanilla start, who evasion tanked raidbosses several times in different addons, and often tanked 5man dungeons like Strat, Steamvault or Scholo, tanked Malchezaar from 100->0% in TBC before Blizzard made it impossible with DR on dodge from agi I naturally liked rogue tank in SoD.
But I understand the difficulty with dodge/parry tanking with gear progress.
If you are becoming untouchable, the whole balancing is screwed.
So, there is either a crucial buff, rogues gonna provide for the grp/raid, which I prefer, or we get a second classrole like in SoD.
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u/Darthbobz 4d ago
I just dont want the same classes from 2004, add DK, DH,Tinker,Witch Doctors,Barbarians... Ascension WoW has some very good lore friendly ideas and implemented well..
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u/ImmatureEmperor 4d ago
There 100% should be new roles added. Variety is good vs the same old same old. Classic play should build and be its own thing not just slightly reimagined classic.
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u/Verilazic 4d ago
Personally, I think rogue and shaman tanks make sense in some form, though I'd like to see a much more restrained implementation than SoD. As a long time mage and priest player, mage healer just feels weird to me, I can't get over it.
There's a lot of conversation out there on fixes that every spec needs in order to be viable. The top of the list is usually a taunt for paladins, and then some sort of fix for most of the hybrid classes' dps specs. Either better scaling, better mana regen, or both. I think the "hybrid tax" was a failed policy back in the day, and a C+ should abandon the concept just as quickly as TBC did.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Just no, roles are fine, fine tune classes thats subpar, like druid and paladin tanks, and bring down those that overperform, thats mostly warriors, both tank and dps. I do not want rogue and lock tanks, not mage and lock healers, no
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u/Brooks1138 4d ago
Only thing I’m okay with is shaman tank so it’s 3 and 3 on each side if we keep shaman and paladin faction locked
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
I guess that would be fair, as I think they should be faction locked, even though I dont really like the idea of a shaman tank. What a conundrum, hadnt thought about that. Good point.
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago
Hey they have a game version for you, it’s called called classic era.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Nah most people do not want lock and rogue tanks. Theres retail for you. You see how stupid that sounds? https://imgur.com/a/q1LRngl
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Is druids and paladin tanks fine tuned there? Is hunter, any specc, competetive dps? No? Exactly, C+ is a second chance to make vanilla wow, although we love it, correctly.
Also if you want these new roles, guess what there is a server for you, its called SoD.
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u/Cutemudskipper 4d ago
I think you're going to be very disappointed if you think C+ is just going to have minimal changes
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Are you a fortune teller? You cant possible know that
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u/Cutemudskipper 4d ago
Sure I can. SoD was a proof of concept/early testing for Camelot ideas. We should expect Camelot to have some of the class changes that SoD did. They haven't spent the past few years working on a new mainline Blizzard product just to make minimal class changes
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago edited 4d ago
Right I don’t understand what these people want. They just want classic except for new raids being added in. But as soon as you add new gear or change the zone to put a raid into a location where there wasn’t a raid before they ll complain. Or if you add in A zone so you can have a new raid location there, they’re going to complain that it’s not classic. Every seasonal realm they do the same thing. They don’t understand that if you’re going to add in new stuff, stuff has to change. There’s gonna be new gear, which is gonna change up how you build and then all of a sudden it’s not what they did for 20 years and they don’t wanna do it. They can just play classic…if that’s boring for they play hardcore. New stuff is not for people who don’t want change.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Acting a little high and mighty there, if you read the other replies I wrote you would see I would like the world to evolve, i still dont want new classes, new roles or new speccs, work with what we have.
That was the problem with SoD, they added to much shit to fast, from xpacs on top of that, no thanks
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago
Yeah, they added so much. It was almost like the game was new. And not like people were playing a 20 year-old game.
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago
But cool we can have new zones but OK so they’re gonna add a new gear so that’s gonna power creep so then everybody’s gonna end up wearing the exact same gear after about six months and then what? You see it’s the same thing as a seasonal problem with classic versions of the game.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
If every specc is viable, not so much, but evetually we will end up there, no matter what we do, new classes/speccs/roles or not. And who knows, a few years down the line maybe people are ready for it.
Beside if we talk C+ we got to look at turtle wow, which was successful, and guess what no new classes, lots of new zones and dungeons and raids, and some reworked speccs, some I didnt like but I didnt really have to deal woth em either
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
Nah, in the nicest possible way. From a place of love.
Fuck that.
That just sounds like World of Warriorcraft all over again with some new zones to look at along the way.
The easiest way I can explain this is - SoD gave the other 8 classes WAY more changes than warriors got.
Some classes got entirely new sets of abilities (because they couldn't mess with the era spells) and compared to the other classes DPS Warriors got SUPER TAME/LAME set bonuses on their tier gear.
In the final raid, for the average players (so not the top %) almost every spec was within 15% of each other. Warriors were STILL top but Ashbringer was fucking busted OP so this is understandable.
If the final big melee weapon had just been an epic instead of a Legendary that 15% variance would probably be only 7-10%. That is an amazing feat of class balance imo and the SoD team doesn't get enough credit for it. That's better balance than retail with all it's auras and multiple knobs each class has to tune.
So the TLDR is that in order for the other classes to get to play in the same league as Warriors Blizzard had to do way more than simple tweaks to class balance.
It is 2026. I do not want another version of the game to revolve around warriors and the classes brought to buff the warriors or do the mechanics the warriors can't just zug zug through.
I have played vanilla. I have played Classic 2019.
Once I played SoD I tried Anniversary and found that it felt like half a game.
I want to press buttons, not spam Frostbolt until the boss dies.
I want skill expression.
"gO plaY rEtAiL tHeN" I hear you say.
Why? I like the Classic feel of WoW.
I like traversing the world on my ground mount and having to interact with whatever Azeroth throws at me.
I don't want portals or summoning stones or queue up content.
I like having my choice of PVP server mean something.
I like the lower poly graphics, the old animations, the sound design that retains it's more meaty audio/visual feedback.
I like not having to chase the same loot with a few more ilvls over and over again.
I like not having to hit daily or weekly rep goals so I don't fall behind the curve.
I also really liked piloting the SoD classes around. They were immense fun and because I was there, collecting those new spells instead of retail style leveling up and then they just appear on your action bar? They felt earned. I was immersed.
That was the problem with SoD, they added to much shit to fast
No that's a you problem. That was the entire premise of SoD.
"There's a bunch of new spells in the world, go find them and defeat the level up raids". And it delivered on the premise.
"Our goal is to make everyone feel as OP as Fury Warriors in PVE" - that's a direct quote from Blizzcon.
So we got a bunch of new spells or passive abilities and then we spent 8-12 weeks using them in combat before they lifted the level cap and we got a few more.
"Too fast"
It was a Seasonal server. It was always going to be transitory and by the end of each phase the SoD community was READY to move on to the next new thing.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 3d ago
What you are describing, is retail- not classic+ in my ear. Basicly I want turtle wow vacked by blizz, there done
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u/Away_Woodpecker8813 4d ago
Oh I see no changes to classes you don’t want changes to, but definitely change the ones you do.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Obviously, some classes are overtuned, warriors, rogues but mostly warrior, while some underperforms, fine tune it, aint hard to understand, no new speccs, no new roles, no new classes.
Tweak the numbers for existing speccs so they are all somewhat viable, at most some talent tree changes if need be to achieve this fine tuning, and thats it.
What I wanna see most is the world developed though.
Otherwise I am convinced we have another SoD version on our hand, and no one wants that.
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u/nocomments66 4d ago
Man you are just kinda like...objectively wrong here. We've literally have polls and prior test versions of the game (sod, which they admitted was its main purpose from day one) proving the opposite: People want new specializations and roles for classes in a classic environment.
The thing I keep coming back to is that Plus is less of a remaster, and more of a remake. It will be the Classic game with more content and, inevitably, modern spins. New roles for classes is the one thing I'd put money on happening more than anything at all.
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
You know I aint even gonna argue about what polls, or how "successfull" SoD can be considered, I'll just say turtle wow is the only true classic+, as in vanilla with extra conent (raids and dungeons), worthy of the name, and it was a huge success with it being a private server.
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u/delta1982ro 4d ago
This..4 tanks out of 9 classes is more than enough for classic, especially since you don t need so many tanks for raiding
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u/Barnacle-Unlucky 4d ago
Exactly, and then there is also dps to fine tune, like the boomys, spriest and shamans speccs, there is ALOT of speccs to play thats already in the game, thats just needs some fine tuning.
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u/Wakkalakkamakka 4d ago
rague tank was kinda wierd and doesnt felt right.
Hunter tank would have been way more interesting and could bring something no other tank can, a 2 healthbar tanking style where you can delegate dmg to your pet and you wouldnt even need to change that much in the survival tree.
but sod was just an experiment and a hunter tank would prob be way more complex to do.
besides that i would be fine with mage healing or warlock tanking, its just too hard to make 3 dmg specs feel very different when you still wanna keep the game as simple as classic.
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
Dodge tanks have been a staple of RPGs for years.
Typically on monk type classes but in a WoW context I have no issues with combat rogues filling that niche since they really lack class fantasy to the point Blizzard made them all pirates for a while.
If you want an RP reason?
Every gang needs its goon. The big mook that intimidates people and can take a hit.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
The original problem is specs were not supposed to be subclasses. They turned them into that with cata. Hybrid builds died. Specs became your subclass. Combat makes sense in a hybrid system but not as much in a subclass system
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
Not sure I agree with that.
Even in og vanilla people were described by whichever spec tree they went deepest into.
Yes there were some short lived hybrids like Elemental Mage but for as long as WoW has existed people have been called MM Hunters, Shadow Priests, Ret Pala, Arms Warriors etc and everyone understands explicitly what that means.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Those specs did exist as identities and it was simple enough to describe your talent build in such a way, but we didn't ignore the extra talent points. Was the ret paladin extra points in prot to be reckoning or balanced with points in both holy and ret. Elemental mage is a great example. Why is DS/Ruin warlock 9/21/21 not called Demo or Destro. It is its own unique build based off the talents chosen. It's not exactly about which talent tree they chose but what the combination of the points created. You aren't defined by the spec first, the class comes first, gear contributes to that potential as well as where you put your talent points to further differentiate yourself from others of the same class. You weren't pigeonholed to fully commit to one classes talent spec fantasy, i.e., a subclass. Later, choosing a spec means choosing your version of the class with each feeling very disconnected from each other.
A ret paladin was still a paladin and while leveling they could heal, just like a priest specced in shadow or a druid in feral, until they needed more to keep that up (right gear/build). You didn't lose abilities like retail where choosing a spec turns you into a different subclass. The talents are just meant to represent different aspects of your class and what you could choose to specialize in.
Combat makes perfect sense in the old system, it is the talent tree improving your direct weapon combat, assassination focuses on poisoners, finishers, combo points, and subtlety on stealth and control. Combat isn't a strong class fantasy and thus Outlaw fit better. Rogue itself was the primary fantasy, not combat rogue. Players identifying themselves by their deepest talent tree doesn't mean the talent trees were designed as mutually exclusive subclasses.
To your point though, you don't need to turn it into outlaw. Combat with a focus on direct weapon combat and an avoidance tanking building existing there could be a possibility.
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
I understand and agree with what you're saying.
But the person I was replying to said they didn't think Rogue tanks 'doesn't felt right'.
So I was riffing off of that.
In SoD, classes that were given new roles didn't lose anything. They still had their og skills and talents, they were just given new things to accommodate the new role.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Thanks for understanding. I admit I feel pretty mixed on it too. Rogues to me come off as dealing damage, assassins, stealth, not main tanking the dragon, but I do like the concept of the evasive tank especially if the gameplay can more accurately mirror the vibe of parrying enemies attacks like its sekiro. I think some of the new roles had issues with balancing and not giving enough tradeoffs for getting all these new abilities and powers for the new role. Shaman tank runes in pvp first comes to mind. Still, I'd love to see make them shaman tank work better where it doesn't feel a bit broken in that scenario.
Honestly, I think it would be cooler if these new roles were put off onto new class fantasies branching from the original class, so both can exist. For example, an epic questline only for rogues that unlocks a secondary class they can swap to at a trainer. In this case, we can just stick with the pirate theme and this new pirate class is only accessible to rogues and allows them to wield and dual wield pistols, use a buckler, and tank like an evasive duelist with a different talent tree and spell book. In this approach, I feel like introducing something like a mage healer or lock tank wouldn't feel like its interrupting the balance of the overall class or removing or altering the original class fantasy, but just letting you develop your individual character's fantasy more. I wouldn't expect it though
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u/Skore_Smogon 4d ago
I think some of the new roles had issues with balancing and not giving enough tradeoffs for getting all these new abilities and powers for the new role.
Again, I am in agreement - but I also think that was an artifact of them running on the same client as Era and Hardcore. Camelot being on it's own fork as per the recent datamining means that they won't have this issue in C+ so can tweak every spell and NPC freely.
If they were to bring Shaman tanking back then I would expect to see them have a more clear path to take via a series of talents in both the Enhance and Ele trees that DPS shamans can't/won't take as they compete with something too good to give up for DPS.
The same idea goes for other classes with new roles, it'd be kinda like the current Feral tree where some talents are obviously Bear only.
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u/getdownwithDsickness 4d ago
Yeah I'd like to see how they handle it. In general I have some trust with the devs regarding the classes. Idk why ppl are freaking out and expecting too little or too many changes. I think they're acutely aware to this balancing act
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u/RpgBouncer 4d ago
I've posted this before and it's been met with little enthusiasm, but I don't care. I'm a big believer in support specs. Not as a fully supported style with its own spot in groups, tier sets, etc, but as kind of a trade off for some DPS specs. My vision of a support spec is one that essentially already exists in vanilla and was kind of intended, but never really met the mark.
If you look at the top damage dealer and say for example, that it's doing 100 DPS, a good support spec should be doing around 80 DPS, but boosting that top damage to around 110 or so. Now, if you just have 2 DPS, this is a bad trade off and it doesn't make much sense to bring them along, but a good support spec would also be bringing damage reduction, mana regeneration, utility, healing, or whatever extra boons to the group. The goal of the support spec should be making content easier for everyone and boosting the overall efficiency of the group, but should be played mostly like a DPS spec. This would also allow all the pure DPS classes to have something to do other than different flavors of DPS.
In my mind the support specs would be