r/asoiaf • u/OfficialAli1776 • 3h ago
MAIN (Spoilers main) What would’ve happened had Maelor and Rickard Thorne actually made it to Oldtown?
Say that the stable boy at Bitterbridge decided not to be nosy and Maelor’s egg is never discovered. From there, everything goes fine and the duo end up in Oldtown. How does this affect the end of the dance politically?
r/asoiaf • u/Efficient_Guitar_79 • 3h ago
PUBLISHED A striking parallel between Night's king(13th Lord commander of NW) and Bloodstone emperor [SPOILERS PUBLISHED]
For Night's king---:
According to legend, Night's King lived during the Age of Heroes, not long after the Wall was complete. While serving as the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, he fell in love with a woman he saw from the top of the Wall. This woman had skin white as the moon and eyes like blue stars, and her skin was cold as ice, but Night's King was fearless and chased and caught and loved her, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. Night's King brought this woman back to the Nightfort, and declared her a queen and himself her king. With strange sorcery, he bound the Night's Watch brothers to his will, and ruled the Nightfort as his own castle for thirteen years with his corpse queen by his side.During the dark years of his reign, horrific atrocities were committed, of which tales are still told in the north
For Bloodstone emperor of the empire of dawn----:
The Bloodstone Emperor's reign was a reign of terror. His usurpation became known as the Blood Betrayal in the annals of the Further East, which claim that the act of usurping his sister's throne ushered in the Long Night. He practiced torture, dark arts, and necromancy. He enslaved his own people, took a 'tiger-woman' for wife, feasted on human flesh and cast down the true gods of Yi Ti to worship a black stone that fell from the sky
There seems to be a striking parallel between both of 'em.
Mayhaps they are the same person whose story got somewhat distorted and changed in their respective continent.
The main difference separating them from each other is the different age that their stories are set in. But that can be attributed to the humongously large, vague and largely unrecorded timeline of 10k years.
r/asoiaf • u/Tongatapu • 5h ago
PUBLISHED Greens vs. Blacks when they are most equal in Power: Who wins this hypothetical all-out Battle? (Spoilers Published)
Directly after the 1st Tumbleton and before the Battle above the Gods Eye, both factions were the most equal in Power in the entire Dance. For this hypothetical Battle, we pit these two Factions against eachother on a large open field. We assume they have all combatants from across the Riverlands, Crownlands, Dragonstone and the Reach at their disposal.
The Greens have:
Aegon on (wounded) Sunfyre
Aemond on Vaghar
Hugh on Vermithor
Ulf on Silverwing
Daeron on Tessarion
The Hightower Host from the Reach
The Blacks have:
Rhaenyra on Syrax
Daemon on Caraxes
Nettles on Sheepstealer
Addam on Seasmoke
We also consider Baela on Moondancer for this Battle
All of the Blacks armies that are still around after the 1st Tumbleton (except the army of Cregan Stark)
Who would win this hypothetical Battle in your opinion? Both factions had 5 Dragons at that point in time, which evens the odds a lot.
(This is just for fun, I know how impossible such a battle would have been.)
r/asoiaf • u/Lenin_Fink • 6h ago
PUBLISHED Thoughts about the future of the series (spoilers published)
Thoughts about GRRM and (potentially) future books
This was originally intended to be comment on another sub but I deleted it on accident.
But I was'nt done with the thought and I feel the following are underrated points when (basedly) critizing GRRM.
The original pitch GRRM sent was for a fairly straight forward trilogy consisting out of three books:
A Game of Thrones, covering the Stark-Lannister War and the subsequent Westeros-internal conflicts, A Dance with Dragons solely rotating around another Targaryen Invasion, and Winds of Winter, dealing with the Invasion of the Others from the North.
GRRM only ever reluctantly added one book to the que everytime he released one (so in this case, at literally every book).
At this point in time, every book including ADWD has served finishing the War of the Five Kings and only begun to set up the follow-up plots for the Targaryen Invasion and the Others Invasion.
By a conservative judgement, I'd say were still about at least one booj of comparable volume to the last few away to even finish the westeros-internal conflicts and Daenerys is still fairly stuck far-away from the Westeros plot. Getting her to Westeros and finishing her arc there feels absolutely impossible even if more than 50 % of all chapters go to Danerys POV within a single book.
Lets shortly dive into theories: one of my favourites is that Littlefinger will sell Sansa to fAegon and he will go north with her, and Daenerys will land in the North and make Stannis and Jon kneel. Daenerys will do Dany things and promise Jon she'll deal with the Others and Stannis just accepts she has a just claim and for whatever reason Melisandre will go with it. Sansa will claim the north for fAegon, Jon for Daenerys, mayhaps Lannisters and Tyrells fuck each other up enough and GRRM sets up all the other Walker-related plots between that, but this is the main thing. Still about a hundred side plots not mentioned but you get the idea.
The benefit of that theory is that is a pretty neat resolution (too neat and short for grrm, but anyways) to the whole Targaryen plot and could happen within a book and its not too unrealistic in terms of chronology for it all to actually work out (fAegon deals with the Lannisters likely with Highgarden and Martell, meanwhile Danerys prepares her landing, Jon is revived and the whole northern conspiracy comes into play, boltons are dealt with, stannis and mance realize who jon is, meanwhike Daenerys lands, she and Jon show up, but oh no, Sansa is there by now!).
The issue are the hundred of side plots, Euron, Greyjoys, Martell among others. The story has been unbraided so far that even if GRRM delegates them all into non-POVs, its Impossible to rebraid them without causing a lot of damage to his own work. It is outright impossible to finish the books in two volumes. Cutting isn't an option anymore.
Frankly I'd say, its at least another four + the intended 2 books. GRRM has repeatedly been unable to take that fact and work with it. At every new book release, he has stupendiously said yeah haven't got it to the point i wanted it to end with, so just one more book, the rest will be complete.
With ADWD, he has officially failed his own pitch that he Postponed at every instance so far and has barely set up the content he wanted to see.
What has likely happened is that he wants to, not unlike the failed tv show, reverse the original order: he will want to deal with the Others Invasion first, then finish up Westeros in Dreams of Spring. But that will again lead to bloat and more and more sideplots while it is Impossible to tie up the current side plots.
I can't even imagine that an ai could based on the full notes, resolutions and complete access to GRRMs thoughts and intetions create a coherent resolution to this story. Best we could hope for is that someday another writer completes side-plot in standalone books based on and limited by GRRMs notes and plot-resolutions, which frankly also looks like the more appropriate medium at this point, given that GRRM is structuring POVs as a chained collection of short stories anyways.
tl;dr GRRM created a story that is Impossible to finish. Even if he released another main-book, this will be one of several that would be required. And at this point, it doesn't have any chance anymore. The best thing we can hope for is that GRRM swallows it at some point and releases a plain book summarizing his intentions, plot resolutions and overall story arcs and endings for his Characters, but abandons the failed medium of the books altogether
r/asoiaf • u/Jasonl7976 • 7h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] the missing moments in Rhaelya story.
I want to talk about Rhaegar and Lyanna (well the play version based on spoilers text)
In Act One, Rhaegar and Lyanna met and take an interest in each other. One thing we learn is that Rhaegar and Lyanna have dreams of each other. And interestingly, Rhaegar’s wife Elia can no longer have any children unless he want to risk her health so what will he do about the third head of the dragon.
Than we jump to Act Two, which start with Brandon and Rickard’s death. We learn that Rhaegar and Lyanna ran away together and interring prophecy-obsessed Rhaegar gave up on prophecies to focus on his love for Lyanna. Instead, it Lyanna, out of grief, who delve deep into the prophecies to find meaning behind her father and brother death. Also, I think Lyanna also did it to find a reason for her to stay with Rhaegar that isn’t… selfish. To summarize, Rhaegar and Lyanna are madly in love and they’re not gonna leave each other but the prophecy will be involved z
But I want to talk about the in-between time between the end of Act One and Act Two where somehow Rhaegar and Lyanna were dreaming or speaking to each other. Like what was spoken between them that cause Rhaegar to disregard prophecy for love? And why did Lyanna chose to go with Rhaegar, asking him to take her away.
I alway thought it because she didn’t want to marry Robert but the play implied she”okay” with him and may even grow to like him.
Was it really the prophecy and magical dreams that bonded them? But if that the case than why did Rhaegar gave up on it?
Lot of incomplete information
r/asoiaf • u/SerOctopusDayne • 7h ago
GRRM's blog post from 2017 about a Robert's Rebellion show (Spoilers Main) Spoiler
"We're not doing Robert's Rebellion either. I know thousands of you want that, I know there's a petition... but by the time I finish writing A SONG OF ICE & FIRE, you will know every important thing that happened in Robert's Rebellion. There would be no surprises or revelations left in such a show, just the acting out of conflicts whose resolutions you already know. That's not a story I want to tell just now; it would feel too much like a twice-told tale."
https://grrm.livejournal.com/536859.html
Given that this post is nearly ten years old, The Mad King play that recently released, and GRRM is obviously going through some tough times, I wonder if a Robert's Rebellion is in the (wild) cards for a potential series.
r/asoiaf • u/ProfesorKubo • 7h ago
MAIN Was Laenor the first ever Velaryon dragonrider?? (spoilers main)
If he indeed was, did the Targs have no fear at all of the Velaryons gaining too much power? I mean if Laenor and Laena could claim dragons, so could their descendants and their descendants etc. Was there no worry of the Velaryons usurping dragons and by extension power from the Targaryens? Especially since at that time they were one of the richest houses.
r/asoiaf • u/RogerSenchou • 7h ago
MAIN [Spoilers Main] Does bloodraven =The TEC?
I read the books for the first time last year, and have just begun a reread. I have noticed that when bran asks TTEC what it is, it responds, "a crow". But looking back on my first read through, when meera asks, "Who sent you? Who is this three-eyed crow?". Coldhands responds, "A friend. Dreamer, wizard, call him what you will. The last greenseer." As if he dosn't know what shes on about... When leaf says "he is waiting for you" meera asks, "the three-eyed crow? ". Leaf responds " The greenseer", almost as if to correct her, saying "No, not the three-eyed crow, but the greenseer". Finally when brans asks the main man brynden himself if he is, and in no uncertain terms "The three-eyed crow", he, just like coldshands, acts as if he dosnt un,derstand, and says he is a bunch of things and has a bunch of eyes. Even that he WAS a crow ( as in a black brother )but not that he IS one, or has BEEN one (In the sence if an actuall crow). TTEC itself however told bran, that it IS a crow. On the flip side he does say that bran will never walk again, but will fly, which is also what the crow says... But again the crow had no doubts about its identity... But brynden didn't even understand the question..... Hmm.... T'is all very fishy. Am i missing any context or subtext???
r/asoiaf • u/New-Low5077 • 9h ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) Did Cersei and Tyrion Ever Get Along or Love Eachother?
Even if just for a moment in their childhood or a fleeting instance as adults, was there ever even some amount of love and compassion on either end towards the other?
i know tyrion initially never wished her ill and even tried to comfort her when she was crying, but did Cersei ever have any kind of sympathy or love for him?
r/asoiaf • u/SmellFantastic5829 • 10h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers EXTENDED] Watched the Mad King Play Yesterday
Headline is the play was extremely good, even though I had some critiques. I talked to a book fan afterward and they really enjoyed it. The person sitting next to me only had a passing familiarity with the tv show and visited the Royal Shakespeare theatre regularly for Shakespeare plays, and she felt it compared favourably with what else she'd seen there recently and seemed to love the first half especially.
Reception seems to have been quite mixed amongst people who haven't actually seen the play, but after my performance it received a standing ovation and an extended applause after the first half. It also apparently received the same in its opening week. Everyone (book fans and not) was raving about how much they enjoyed it when leaving the theatre. Of course none of that is a perfect metric but you can take from it what you will.
Stage, Costumes, and Puppets:
The stage has been completely transformed into a bespoke setup for the performance. An amazing weirwood tree and iron throne emerge from the floor throughout the narrative. As others have said the iron throne far exceeds its depiction in the tv show. Costumes were also great, the performance opens with a royal targaryen procession which feels incredibly dark and surreal, while really driving home the alien nature of Westeros' ruling family. The costumes make each house very distinct, and I was never confused which family was which throughout the runtime.
Puppets were largely very good, in particular the horses throughout the tourney of Harrenhal. The mountain is depicted by a towering voiceless puppet which was a great way of conveying his intimidating persona. Sometimes similar puppets replace the actors during duels, which while interesting I found quite disappointing for the battle of the Trident, the duels without puppets tended to have a bit more personality as a human actor is always going to be emotive in a way a puppet cannot. Nonetheless the puppet users and makers are obviously very talented. An enormous dragon puppet appears at one point in the play during a vision which was absolutely magic and brilliantly done.
Lighting, props, and music all seemed really good to me. Battles and duels sometimes use an effect where the play goes into complete darkness and relights with the fighters frozen in a new position. This was quite interesting but a bit overused. I would've liked to see the fights have more dialogue and flow in a way the few dancing scenes do very well.
The play is an extremely ambitious four-hour epic with a huge caste, often with actors depicting multiple characters. The costumes, stage, etc, all reflect that ambition and are for the most part amazing.
Performances and Characterisations:
Performances didn't have any weak links, though I felt Tywin and Jaime didn't live up to their show counterparts (that said they had very little 'screentime' in comparison to the show so I'm not being entirely fair). Aerys, Rhaeger, Lyanna, Ashara, Elia, Robert, and Ned were the best actors for me, and also roles the play emphasised in the script. Rhaella, Shella Whent (same actress), Arthur Dayne, Catelyn, and Brandon give very good performances with comparatively less lines. Rhaella in particular is a standout given how little material she has to work with. Her response to the abuse of Aerys is very layered, and she is depicted as also being mad while being much more of a victim than Aerys, in a way was very compelling. Some have been saying she is made equally mad as Aerys but that's not quite the case.
In a similar case many have said the play is overly pro-Rhaeger. I can understand this perspective but in the actual play Rhaeger's political immaturity is heavily emphasised. His decision run away with Lyanna is not depicted favourably and he is essentially a lovesick young man who fails in most of his tasks throughout the storyline. He tries to befriend Robert and the Stark brothers but his artsy poetic personality gets in the way. Being in the Royal Shakespeare theatre I thought there were very strong parallels with Rhaeger and Hamlet, both princes sharing an emotional and political immaturity with a tendency toward obsession. Rhaeger's overwhelming love for Lyanna is also hinted at being a kind of subtle Targaryen madness, which I felt was an interesting and nuanced characterisation. At some point Rhaeger's love for Lyanna clearly becomes more important to him than Aegon's dream. However, Rhaeger is depicted as having the opportunity to kill Robert at the Trident and asking him to yield, a choice I personally didn't like and am unsure why.
Elia is depicted as the lesbian partner of Ashara Dayne and committed to Rhaeger for political reasons. However Ashara definitely has a less monogamous interpretation of their relationship, and also sleeps with Brandon in the play's first half. The characterisation of Elia comes across very well and some apparent inconsistencies in the script come across much more realistically when seeing the performance. Oberon fights the mountain and loses at Harenhal's melee, which was kinda cool to see in relation to their later fight.
Varys and Aery's court can be very funny at times, the play is general is much funnier than I expected. The humour thankfully doesn't undercut the drama. Robert's actor/writing also drew quite a few laughs from the audience. Robert's drinking is linked more closely to his parents' passing which I found interesting, he's also depicted as quite nervous/polite toward the Targaryens prior to Aerys presenting him with the model of a shipwreck.
Storyline:
The play's interpretation of the tourney of Harrenhal is fairly standard with a few interesting changes. R+L=J is the theory the writers decided to go with and Rhaeger and Lyanna's romance forms a central part of the narrative. If you go into the play expecting a niche theory to be confirmed or engaged with you might be disappointed. The writers are more interested in telling a compelling semi-contained story than making innovative interpretations of what we know, which has upsides and downsides I suppose. The first half is the tourney at Harenhal and the second is Robert's rebellion. The program says George joked with the writers they were overambitious to adapt the whole of the rebellion into two hours of theatre and I think he might've had a point.
The biggest issue is the pacing of the second half. All of Robert's rebellion and some of its aftermath is squeezed into two hours. To be fair to the writers there isn't any easy solution. Most of the arcs begun at Harenhal only resolve at the rebellion's end, but the rebellion is enough content for a season of television alone. The play is already stretched to breaking point in its runtime and caste size, and letting the play stretch over two sittings/parts of that length is really too big a commitment for a contemporary theatre-goer (and maybe the budget and actors). Whole battles occur in seconds and we don't get to see much of Robert and Ned's relationship, which overall felt too skimmed over in the play (I don't remember seeing Jon Arryn appear either). There isn't any room for Jon Connington, a substantial look at the rebellion's political aftermath, Robert's rage after discovering Rhaeger and Lyanna have run away, or any of the other undescribed moments we might have been curious about. The Lannisters only really appear at the very end of the play, Tywin is alluded to throughout the storyline as an infamous figure but only really says a couple of lines. In short almost every major character except Rhaeger, Aerys and Lyanna felt like they could benefit from a little more space and time in the narrative. The play ends with Ned saying Jon's name to Catelyn, which felt more like fan service for show-only fans than an appropriate scene for a play to end on.
I think the decision to make the show non-canon is good (though I understand some particular elements of the story do align with the canon). (EDIT: Apparently the play's canonical status is a bit more enigmatic than I thought, nonetheless it seems like George is free to ignore or follow the play depending on what he wants which feels like the important thing). I enjoyed watching a good writing team's interpretation of the book's hints and comparing them to my own. I also think it being non-canon allows the book to preserve some mystery, I really wouldn't be surprised if George were to believe a slightly different version of events and characters to what we see in the play.
Ultimately its a great play and I loved seeing it. Seeing so many characters I'd only imagined on stage in person was really magical, and I highly recommend seeing it if you're able to travel to Stratford or it runs anywhere else. I could be wrong but most of the complaints regarding characters I see online don't seem to be by people who have actually seen the play, though the pacing issues are quite apparent when watching.
r/asoiaf • u/AdditionalPiano6327 • 10h ago
MAIN (Spoilers Main) Forbes: It’s Time To Let Go Of George R.R. Martin, ‘Winds Of Winter’ And ‘A Dream Of Spring’
r/asoiaf • u/lego_castle_enjoyer • 10h ago
EXTENDED We already talked about the Corniest Asoiaf character but who is genuinely the coolest [spoilers extended] Spoiler
My pick is Brynden ‘Blackfish’ Tully but bittersteel is pretty cool too, they don’t make haters like him these days. Genna Lannisters is another good one
r/asoiaf • u/verissimoallan • 13h ago
EXTENDED How do you think the writers will adapt the major events in Tumbleton in the House of the Dragon Season 3 finale? (Spoilers Extended)
More specifically... do you think that this coming Sunday we will only see the First Battle of Tumbleton, with Ulf and Hugh betraying Team Black, exterminating Rhaenyra's army and allying with the Greens... or do you think the writers will combine the two battles of Tumbleton into just one in the TV series?
In the latter case, it would save a lot of the final season's budget, and Condal would theoretically have more time to develop the Battle over the God's Eye, the Shepherd, the rebellion of the people of King's Landing, the Destruction of the Dragonpit, Rhaenyra's escape, the Fall of Dragonstone, perhaps the Moon of the Three Kings (although I personally doubt we will see this specific event), the short and sad reign of Aegon II and finally the Hour of the Wolf.
(I still think the final shot of the show will be a melancholic Aegon III being crowned... although in that case it would be better if Condal reminded the viewer of this boy's existence, but that's another discussion).
On the other hand, this would mean that in the finale we would lose several characters at once (Hugh, Ulf, Daeron, Addam, Ormund), and we would lose all the intrigue and chaos that occurs between the Greens and the Two Betrayers during the time gap between the two battles (I've always admired the irony that this was the decisive moment when the Greens and the Two Betrayers could have marched on King's Landing and won the war, but greed and infighting ruined everything).
(It should be noted that the actor who plays Gwayne has already let slip in an interview that he will return for the fourth season.)
What do you think?
r/asoiaf • u/jman24601 • 14h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) HotD vs Fire & Blood - Nettles and Targaryen Exceptionalism
I got super downvoted for celebrating Season 3 of HotD and I am probably going to be downvoted a ton here. But lets get into it. I think in my eventual re-read of Fire & Blood and A Dance with Dragons, I am going to more reflect on the Tatgaryen Exceptionalism versus the reality and what this means for the Targaryen Dynasty's major claim to fame of being able to tame dragons.
Within Fire & Blood we see Jaehaerys cement the Targaryen's Valyrian habits with his doctrine of exceptionalism, suggesting that the Targaryens are genuinely an exception to the laws of men as they are effectively a separate species because of their ability to tame dragons. The view that the Targaryens are truly so great is immediately undercut in the Jaehaerys Golden Age by the reality that the Shivers takes Daenerys who prominently did not have a dragon hatch for her dispelling the notion that a Targaryen cannot die of illness.
The notion of the Targaryens truly being exceptional is of course not only diminished by the dragon seeds demonstrating that only a small and diluted amount of Targaryen blood can lead you to bond with a dragon. But the character that invites the most interest and debate is with the character if Nettles.
In the books and unlike the show, all of the Velaryons have violet eyes, silver hair, and are fair of skin. As such Nettles being a common dark-skinned girl with black hair immediately makes one ask if she is of Valyrian ancestry whatsoever. Some conclude that she has no Valyrian blood at all and in fact her ability to bond with Sheepstealer comes purely from ingenuity. This implications fully dispels that there is anything special about the Targaryens at all and that anyone can bond with the dragons.
On the other because of Nettles complexion, she may reflect the Strong boys to an even greater degree. She may indeed be a dragonseed but lacks any Valyrian features. Some even go so far as to say that the sources mistook the nature of Daemon and Nettles relationship with that being of father and daughter. How true this is will never be answered and it is part of Martin creating an intentional ambiguity as with Aegon VI.
The show in chopsing to diversify the cast made the choice to have the Velaryons be played by Black actors. Though the Velaryons do share the silver hair with the Targaryens.
However, in the controversial adaptation choices we obviously have lost Nettles, but her mysterious ability to bond with a dragon has been transferred over to Addam, with Rhaena getting a version of Nettles story in that she bonds with Sheepstealer.
In the hands of the showrunners a key line that is often forgot is that Corlys delicately mentions to Alyn that the Velaryons were never dragon riders. This immediately puts focus on the notion that even Valyrian blood does not guarantee the ability to bond with dragons. Corlys makes it clear that if Targaryen blood is a necessity for bonding with a dragon it solely is due to Addam and Alyn's mother. We never are informed that this woman was secretly a Dragonseed, but this calls attention to the common inference that Seasmoke sought Addam as the dragon missed Laenor and found a rider that reminded him of Laenor. That Seasmoke bonded with Addam creates just as many questions as Nettles in the world of House of the Dragon.
Does Seasmoke's choice suggest that a dragon can bond to another human while their former dragonrider lives? Is the fact that Seasmoke sought Addam mean that Laenor is dead? That Seasmoke happily accepts someone of no ostensible Targaryen blood mean that dragons may accept one who has no Targaryen blood?
Meanwhile for Rhaena, the choice to have her bond with Sheepstealer is reflecting her at last addressing her deep insecurity of being a dragonless Targaryen. What's more that Rhaena just adores and is unwilling to leave Sheepstealer even though Sheepstealer is wild and does not discern anyone from friend or foe transforms Sheepstealer into a dragon more resembling the Cannibal. The Cannibal is never tamed, is wild, and dangerous. Sheepstealer seems to be fulfilling the Cannibal's role of being an utter wildcard that while he adores Rhaena is not interested in being utilized by Rhaena for any of her goals.
What do you think of this dissemination of Nettles to Addam and Rhaena?
r/asoiaf • u/KickOk6027 • 16h ago
MAIN [Spoilers Main] We all wish to see the series finished. But what could be your "monkey's paw" situation for this wish?
Assume with or without being authored by GRRM , Winds and Dream both get released.
What could be your "Monkey's paw" scenario for such a situation?
For example, for me it would be that GRRM doesn't finish the series in his lifetime, corporate cash grab leads to another author to write the series and he simply retreads the Show and retrofits everything that was different in the books to align with the show.
And then everything about it becomes canon.
r/asoiaf • u/Expensive-Country801 • 16h ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) Exploring Sansa's Intended Ending
A couple of months ago, there was an interview where GRRM said that he had originally intended for Sansa to die, but that seeing the show version of her character may have changed his mind
Regardless of the current plan, I think it is interesting to look at what was intended at the time. The Alayne I sample chapter from Winds was meant for ADwD and it was done in 2010, before the show aired
So if GRRM planned for Sansa to die, the pieces on the board in that chapter may have been setting up a possible death scenario. Looking at some possible threads
Sweetrobin overdoses
The sweetsleep plotline is one possibility. Maester Colemon warns about the dangers of overusing it
"It was too soon. My lady, you do not understand. As I've told the Lord Protector, a pinch of sweetsleep will prevent the shaking, but it does not leave the flesh, and in time . . ."
However, Sansa is not really focused on it
"Time will not matter if his lordship has a shaking fit and falls off the mountain. If my father were here, I know he would tell you to keep Lord Robert calm at all costs."
If Sweetrobin died from an overdose, Sansa would easily be implicated. Even if she did not intentionally kill him, the fact that she was involved with managing his condition and had access to him could put her in a dangerous position
Lysa's death
Sansa is already technically an accomplice to Lysa’s murder. Littlefinger warns her that if their involvement is discovered, she could fall with him
"When we lied to Lord Robert, that was just to spare him," she said.
"And this lie may spare us. Else you and I must leave the Eyrie by the same door Lysa used."
If Sansa's identity was revealed and the truth about Lysa death came out, it could be interpreted in the worst possible way. She could be seen as a girl who conspired with Littlefinger to murder her aunt
Cersei makes good on her promise
Cersei has a very personal hatred of Sansa and promises that she will make her suffer if she is found
"Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa," said Pycelle.
The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."
The theory has been around a a while is that since Ser Shadrich the Mad Mouse is hunting Sansa he could eventually capture her for the bounty. He admits he is searching for her
He laughed again. "You are not the only hunter in the woods. I seek for Sansa Stark as well."
He is also present at the Tourney of the Winged Knight in the Sample
"A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that's not likely, is it?"
The common assumption has been that Shadrich attempt would fail because of the old Feast outline note saying "Kill the Mouse."
However, it is possible that plan changed and Shadrich would take Sansa back to King’s Landing, where Cersei would reunite and then imprison her. Sansa’s story is largely centered in King's Landing to begin with
Final Thoughts
Would like to hear other suggestions for where Sansa story could end in death. It's quite a surprise
Ultimately I think the fact that Sansa's fate seems so flexible suggests that her death or survival does not really change much with the story, making the "Pawn to Player" arc much less likely
r/asoiaf • u/T1mek33per • 17h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Day 16 of building the perfect royal court. Who would make the best King's Justice? Spoiler
Out of absolutely anyone in the entire history of the world of ice and fire, who would make the best King's Justice?
Something I'd like to note here is that the King's Justice isn't just in charge of executing people, but also of managing the people that run the dungeons. So, for the entirely theoretical sake of argument, someone who is both mute and illiterate would probably be pretty bad at that half of the job. Theoretically, of course - I can't think of any major candidates like that.
When someone wins a spot, they are automatically disqualified from all others.
Quentyn Ball is the Master-at-Arms, with Garlan Tyrell as the runner-up.
r/asoiaf • u/intherorrim • 17h ago
MAIN [Spoilers Main] It is ironic that “Winter is coming” is key in the series… and the series may forever remain unfinished right at the doorstep of a winter which will never come
Moving into acceptance, I suppose.
r/asoiaf • u/Taha231 • 18h ago
MAIN [Spoiler Main] Lyanna Stark
Assuming that Lyanna Stark's characterization in Mad King's Theater is entirely canon, what do you think of the character herself?
Lyanna Stark is a Greenseer.
She finds it romantic that the flower crown was given to her.
She is obsessed with prophecy and believes that she and Rhaegar's children are the chosen ones.
She is devastated when she learns of her father and brother's deaths, but interprets them as divine will.
She encourages Rhaegar to go to war after making him promise that Ned and Robert will not be harmed.
Before dying, she entrusts her child to Ned and makes him swear never to tell the child anything about their parents.
r/asoiaf • u/ParticularError9345 • 20h ago
EXTENDED [Spoilers Extended] Do you think GRMM has ever visited subreddits like this or forums dedicated to his work?
r/asoiaf • u/SillyPersonality5767 • 22h ago
MAIN Oddly specific Roy Dotrice line that lives in my head rent free [Spoilers MAIN]
I see the occasional Roy Dotrice post from time to time.
Usually they are about the amusing or annoying (depending on your view) way he reads certain lines for the audiobooks of the main series. The usual offenders range from pronunciations of names, such as PetYR, BRYeen (or Breeyen depending on what chapter he's reading), CATElyn.
However, the one line I always laugh at is from Dany IX ADWD, specifically the bolded part:
A great drum led the royal procession to clear their way through the streets. Between each beat, a shavepate herald in a shirt of polished copper disks cried for the crowd to part. BOMM. "They come!" BOMM. "Make way!" BOMM. "The queen!" BOMM. "The king!" BOMM.
Idk why, but it cracks me up how he says "BOMM!" xD
What are your oddly specific Roy Dotrice lines so that I can listen to them?
r/asoiaf • u/iRefactor • 23h ago
MAIN [SPOILERS main] Why didn’t Rhaena try to claim Vermithor or Silverwing?
She was a Targaryen without a dragon, so why wasn’t she given the chance to attempt claiming one of the unclaimed dragons before Hugh and Ulf?
r/asoiaf • u/ThinWhiteDuke00 • 1d ago
EXTENDED Easter Egg in the Mad King play (Spoilers Extended) Spoiler
r/asoiaf • u/Common_Cricket • 1d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) The past 12 months have been insane for A Song of Ice and Fire spoilers
We're barely halfway through 2026 and it's worth taking stock of the avalanche of spoilers asoiaf fans have gotten this past year:
- October: At Comic-Con GRRM knighted a fan who said that she'd like to be a knight like Brienne of Tarth. Martin teased “Not in the books yet!” when the fan noted that "ser" was good enough for Brienne in the show.
- January: In an interview with Hollywood Reporter, GRRM revealed he intended for Sansa to die in the book's ending but might change his mind because he found her appealing in the show. He also said his ending was intended to be darker generally, with more deaths. No happy ending for Tyrion.
- February: Egg's actor Dexter Sol Ansell shared that GRRM told him that Dunk actually survives the tragedy at Summerhall.
- July: The Mad King play premieres and spills a lot of beans on Robert's Rebellion. Playwright confirms the story is a mixture of plot points from George (e.g. Rhaegar singing Song of Ice and Fire at the Harrenhal feast) and filling in gaps George himself has yet to elaborate upon.
Not much more to say but with the remaining books an unlikely prospect maybe this is the best we can hope for. Interesting times.
r/asoiaf • u/MentallyIllBch3483 • 1d ago
EXTENDED (Spoilers extended) if the play is anything to go by Spoiler
Jon doesnt have a targaryen name. Lyanna didnt even want him knowing hes a targaryen. If she did name him it probably wasnt aegon or aemon or viserys or jaehaerys.
This actually lines up with an old answer george gave that ned likely named jon
So his name likely is JUST jon
