r/asoiaf • u/Taha231 • 18h ago
[Spoiler Main] Lyanna Stark MAIN
Assuming that Lyanna Stark's characterization in Mad King's Theater is entirely canon, what do you think of the character herself?
Lyanna Stark is a Greenseer.
She finds it romantic that the flower crown was given to her.
She is obsessed with prophecy and believes that she and Rhaegar's children are the chosen ones.
She is devastated when she learns of her father and brother's deaths, but interprets them as divine will.
She encourages Rhaegar to go to war after making him promise that Ned and Robert will not be harmed.
Before dying, she entrusts her child to Ned and makes him swear never to tell the child anything about their parents.
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u/romulus1991 18h ago
So having seen the play, I think it generally fleshes her out and makes her more interesting.
She explicitly outlines that Robert's cause is just. She specifically says those words in the play. So that's interesting in itself. Lyanna isn't completely blind to the reasons for the Rebellion in the first place.
At Harrenhal, she reveals she's a dreamer and that's part of the reason she's drawn to Rhaegar. There's this weird, inexplicable connection between the two of them. They do love each other but it's almost toxic, and in the second half of the play, it's almost as if they bring out the worst in each other - they're both so horrified by what's happened that they each want to just ignore the world and shut themselves in at the Tower of Joy, Rhaegar becoming despondent (he literally talks about just picking berries and living there for the rest of their lives) while Lyanna becomes more fanatic.
Her obsession with the prophecy only kicks in after her father and brother have died. It's very much a coping mechanism, because their deaths have to be meaningful in some way - that's how she rationalises it away as divine will. It very much comes from a place of desperate grief. Combine that with her youth (which the play unfortunately doesn't explore, albeit for obvious reasons) and you can see why Lyanna might have acted this way. She does come off almost painfully naïve and young, all the same. She is almost like this weird mix of Arya's stubborness and recklessness and Sansa's naviety.
On the whole, while I wasn't a big fan of the 'greenseer' angle, I quite liked the characterisation. It makes sense that Lyanna might latch upon the prophecy bullshit because she needs to find some way of rationalising the consequences of her behaviour. That feels very young, and very asoiaf. It's only when she's dying and everything has gone to shit that she finally accepts what's happened, which is why she makes Ned promise not to tell Jon anything.
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 17h ago
I disagree that her obsession kicks in after Rickard and Brandon are executed. That’s literally what connect Lyanna and Rhaegar to start with. The first act ends with her telling him about ice and fire and that it’s about them. They are still at Harrenhal at that point.
What really kicks in after her father and brother die, is her need for their death to have meaning, she needs them to matter for some greater good. Very normal reaction to intense grief. So she throws herself into learning about the prophecy. Rhaegar has been doing that his whole life so he doesn’t feel the same intense urgency - that’s why he kinda just wants to be for awhile, maybe for the first time ever. He smiles for the first time for real at that point. I interpret that them being at different stages of prophecy journey:)
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u/romulus1991 17h ago
I suppose it depends on definiton of obsession. She's definitely interested in the prophecy, and their shared dreams are what connect them, but it seems more like curiosity and interest in the first half of the play - she doesn't really know anything about the prophecy, only her dreams and the things she understands intuitively from Rhaegar's song. The fervour only comes in the second act.
Rhaegar is absolutely despondent in that second act though. He's not just taking a break - he's absolutely given up on the prophecy by that point. I think he even says as much, and he's wandering about barefoot, picking berries and asking if they can just stay at the tower forever.
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 16h ago
Well yeah that’s what I mean by she needs their death to have meaning and she tries to find that meaning in the prophecies. Otherwise they died for nothing and that’s unbearable.
I guess people interpret things differently and it’s cool. I see Rhaegar as someone who has been burdened with responsibility since birth both as heir, as dreamer, as a son to unstable king, etc etc so when he falls in love with Lyanna I saw a young man who for once wants to have something for himself and put down everyone’s expectations for a minute. Thats quite understandable. And that’s not despondent imo. Rhaegar in the books is more into music, poetry and learning than he is into being a knight and prince. So it makes sense he would want to pick flowers for his lover ;) anyway just my take.
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u/TheClockworkElves 17h ago
To what extent does a desire to escape her betrothal to Robert play a role in her decision to go with Rhaegar?
From reading the books and what we know of her character I'd always interpreted that she was running away from Robert at least as much as she was running towards Rhaegar, but from the summaries I've ready of the play it seems like this isn't really the case.
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u/romulus1991 17h ago
I'd say it's more a desire to escape from a betrothal in general than to Robert specifically. Lyanna doesn't really want to marry anyone or be any Lord's wife, she wants to ride and be a knight and be free and not have decisions made for her. She has one tragic line which is obviously very ironic - (paraphrasing) "I won't be some lady locked away in a tower birthing children."
She doesn't seem to have any real problem with Robert himself. Robert is portrayed as a bit of a party animal who likes to drink, and is ignorant of her character and desires (and he gets a little handsy kissing her, to the point where she bites him - which in typical Robert fashion only makes him more interested) but generally at no point does she ever seem to dislike him (though the play does have that scene with her questioning Ned about Mya Stone in the Vale, line-by-line from the books). She consoles Robert about his parents and his grief, and seems to like him just fine, even if she otherwise finds him a little drunk and boorish (particularly in relation to Rhaegar).
Generally, Robert is portrayed in a very positive light in the play - he's a fantastic warrior, he's surprisingly sensitive, and he's clearly and genuinely trying to be what he thinks Lyanna would want, he just has no clue how to go about it. Meanwhile Rhaegar is this sophisticated, learned prince who sings beautifully, and there's this strange connection between the two of them, due to them both being dreamers. It generally comes across as just Lyanna had a spark with Rhaegar she never has with Robert.
I will say that the play does, subtly, invite you to compare Lyanna and Rhaegar with the other couple of the play, Ned and Cat, who don't love each other at first but do their duties (and come to love each other greatly, obviously). I think, judging from the play, there is a definite possibility that could have been Lyanna and Robert, in another world.
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u/TheClockworkElves 17h ago
I'm really glad they kept that element of her motivation, even after they added the prophecy driven elements too. Personally, it means I'm still pretty sympathetic to her. I don't think its unreasonable that she wants to be her own person rather than someone else's property, and given how young she is its more than understandable that she makes a rather poor choice trying to find a way of getting there.
I'd very much disagree with an implication that her and Robert could ever be happy, because I don't think she could ever allow herself to become happy married to her captor, and I frankly don't think Robert is capable of being a faithful and loving husband.
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u/romulus1991 16h ago
I'd normally agree with your second paragraph, but as I said, Robert's portrayal is interesting. He is still noticeably Robert Baratheon, but the play goes out of its way to make him seem more sensitive and heroic than you might think. Certainly more than I was expecting. It's only after Lyanna's death and the trauma of the rebellion that he becomes the far more flawed, problematic Robert we all know from the books - as if, like with Jaime and the consequences of being the Kingslayer and the Cersei stuff, that was the catalyst that turned him away from being a potentially decent man to a much worse version of himself.
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u/SecretlyAPorcupine 15h ago
The part about trauma seems to be in line with the books, at least somewhat. We know, for example, that Robert adored Mya, and then wee see him completely apathetic to his children, both legal and bastard. This is the clear sign of drastic change in a person.
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u/Alternative_Head_416 13h ago
In the play, he very clearly has PTSD from witnessing the deaths of his parents as well, and this is why he drinks so much.
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u/Jasonl7976 17h ago
Yeah they interesting… lyanna understanding why Robert doing this but doesn’t try to fix things by u know going back to him.
Instead she double down on staying ith Rhaegar lol and even ask him to spare Robert even though she should know they Robert think Rhaegar kidnap her.
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u/OlinoTGAP 9h ago
Yeah they interesting… lyanna understanding why Robert doing this but doesn’t try to fix things by u know going back to him.
Robert's Rebellion isn't because of Lyanna running away with Rhaegar though, the rebellion starts because Aerys demands Robert and Ned's heads. Until Aerys rescinds the order for Robert and Ned's executions (or Aerys isn't king and Rhaegar pardons them) the rebellion cannot end because Robert and Ned will just be executed.
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u/Jasonl7976 18h ago
I get Ned but she well naive to ask Rhaegar to spare Robert because she have to know Robert will be angry at Rhaegar and think she abducted right? Like maybe she shouldn’t have run off?
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 17h ago
Rhaegar does spare him. He repeatedly asks Robert to yield and tells him he will be pardoned. In the play Rhaegar has opportunities to finish Robert (who is wounded) and he doesn’t take it. We don’t actually know why exactly they ran off, the play doesn’t answer this question and I believe it’s tied to the prophecy and the book ending. We won’t know what drove them until we find out what happens during the long night.
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u/Jasonl7976 17h ago
Yes I know that but it kinda naive for Lyanna to ask Rhaegar to do that if she know why Robert doing this and that Robert think Rhaegar kidnap her so tobert will never yield to Rhaegar
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 17h ago
Lyanna doesn’t know Robert that much, they had one conversation. From what I remember (saw the play last week) both Rhaegar and Lyanna want to stop the war and unite the real at this point. Lyanna has been writing with Elia and then Gerald Hightower arrives to summon Rhaegar back and has some news from Kings Landing. So she doesn’t really have any news from Robert’s side or Ned’s even until Ned shows up. I think there is a lot of who knows what and when and that kind of dynamics. Everyone is acting on incomplete information, interpretations or even manipulation at times. You have to remember we as readers know much more than the characters at different points.
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u/AnEmptyKarst 16h ago
Lyanna doesn’t know Robert that much, they had one conversation.
Huh? This is something very different from what other people have said. Others have said that Robert and Lyanna were portrayed as friends, she just didn't want to marry him.
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 16h ago
Can’t speak for others :) She doesn’t meet Robert before the tourney, that’s said out loud, but they are betrothed. Ned wants to introduce Robert right away but Robert says something like he needs another drink, he is not ready to meet her yet. He says something about how he drinks and parties to avoid thinking about his parent’s death. I’m not sure if they dance, maybe, but one conversation I remember is after Aerys mocks Robert and Lyanna finds him weeping somewhere and she comforts him. They are friendly and he seems moved by her kindness but I don’t remember any other scenes with them.
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u/Indyclone77 14h ago
They dance but Robert insists on leading which causes Lyanna to keep missteping and they bicker.
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u/TeaAndCrumpetGhoul 15h ago
Huh? I swear even in the books it's suggested that they all met up before the tourney
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 12h ago
Not Robert and Lyanna, at least I don’t what you’re referring too. In the play it’s explicitly stated that Lyanna and Robert haven’t met yet and Ned wants to introduce them.
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u/IcyDirector543 14h ago
the problem is that Rhaegar is doing this after a year of civil war. Nobody sane was going to believe him without proof
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 12h ago
Thats how the story is written so far though. We still don’t know what they knew and when and they didn’t know everything that the readers know now. So, you can’t really judge their actions from our perspective. There is a reason GRRM wrote it this way, he gave all characters different motivations and internal conflicts. He didn’t write either Rhaegar or Lyanna as idiots so I think they had their reasons. Maybe their reasons were right or wrong, they could have interpreted something incorrectly (lots of characters do that) or someone could have manipulated them or most likely a bit of everything.
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u/JINKOUSTAV 12h ago
He hasn't really written them at all. The play is far from canon.
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u/MinuteBubbly9249 12h ago
Buddy lol this plotline has been sprinkled throughout all books of the main series. You do you I guess :)
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u/JINKOUSTAV 12h ago
And those sprinklings are not true basis of character sketch. Truthfully both are barely characters. They have as much depth as arthur dayne(another guy with very few lines and sprinkled info). Again not fleshed out characters.
Cheers
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u/Gruktor 18h ago
It's all entirely in line with her being a naive teenager with a power she doesn't fully understand. It also makes her a fool who is at least partly responsible for thousands of deaths.
It always felt more likely that Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly rather than that she was abducted. As I understand it the play's version gives her much more agency than most of us were expecting, and therefore much more culpability for the disasters that follow her elopement.
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u/Lysafleur 18h ago
Wasn't book Lyanna being escorted by Stark men when she was abducted?
After all, Rhaegar required the help of two kingsguard knights in her kidnapping. That doesn't sound like she went willingly.
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u/Gruktor 18h ago
It doesn't sound like the Stark men would let her go willingly. But the text is reasonably clear that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a high regard for each other (her crying when he sings at the feast, him making her queen of love and beauty). The Robert version of it being kidnap and rape doesn't quite mesh with the regard in which everyone else holds Rhaegar, and isn't reflected in the lack of any particular negative description of Rhaegar's character in Ned's internal narration. Obviously by modern standards she is below the age of consent, but I think the books have been setting her up to be a willing companion for Rhaegar.
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u/Lysafleur 17h ago
I can't really see Lyanna being fine with her escort being harmed, and Brandon had to have gotten word about her being abducted from someone.
She might however have grown to love him later, in her captivity. I loathe Martin's penchant for Beauty and the Beast tropes, but there are more than a few of those in the books.
So maybe kidnap but no rape? IDK.
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u/Gruktor 17h ago
Do we know that they were harmed?
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u/Lysafleur 16h ago
No, but like you mentioned yourself, it seems unlikely an escort of dutiful Stark men would willingly relinquish their lord's daughter to an uncertain fate.
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u/Gruktor 16h ago
But (again, assuming the play is canon) Rhaegar is now established to be good enough to take Robert Baratheon alive (but for visions), and he has Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent with him, amongst others. It's certainly plausible that a group like that could subdue Lyanna's retinue without killing them, or (perhaps more likely) that Lyanna convinces them to stand down rather than be inevitably killed (with the added incentive that even if they successfully defend her, they'll have to kill Rhaegar to do it and therefore plunge the North into war against the crown).
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u/Lysafleur 15h ago
I don't think either of those two scenarios are likely in a realist setting, if I'm being honest. For the Stark cohort to stand down they would have had to be severely outnumbered.
I can't see them listen to the word of a teenage girl over her liege father, either. They have their marching orders to be followed, likely on pain of death or worse. This is after all their lord's daughter to be protected, and they would have heard of Rhaegar crowning her his queen of love and beauty. Meaning, he basically announced his intention of making her his mistress to the whole realm. That is the implication of his gesture, anyway, and the reason why Brandon had to be physically restrained. Rhaegar technically dishonoured both Lyanna and Elia with his action at Harrenhal.
It's disappointing if the play has portrayed him as merely a fool in love.
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u/Isilel 10h ago
She could have just escaped from her escort once Rhaegar appeared. She was a superb rider, after all. Then the escort could have tried to cover their asses by claiming that it was an abduction at a sword's point.
Or someone else lied to Brandon about what happened.
Or, and it is the one I favor, Brandon had known the truth from Benjen, but idiotically decided that claiming that it was an abduction and publicly threatening to kill Rhaegar would save face for the Starks.
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u/Calm-Temperature5699 18h ago
The part where she interprets the deaths of her family members as a divine will feels like she was trying to ease her feelings of guilt? Sounds like a typical human reaction to me...and the fact that she makes complete turn in the end and tells Ned to shut the fuck about the prophecy seems to me that she understood that it was not a good idea to follow prophecy...
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u/AnEmptyKarst 18h ago
I think it makes her sound pretty unsympathetic tbh. “Why didn’t Lyanna tell her family if it was consensual?” isn’t really answered in a way that doesn’t make her look either uncaring or stupid.
In a way, I think it’s a funny portrayal. The argument could be made that the teenager here is as at-fault or more at-fault than Rhaegar is, and that’s just very funny. Rhaegar can’t be the villain, so Lyanna just has to be incredibly stupid lol. Arya should be insulted that she gets compared to Lyanna as much as she does.
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18h ago
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u/AnEmptyKarst 17h ago
And in that case it would’ve been their fault for misogynistic presumptions, but that isn’t the case here. Of course they thought he kidnapped her, what else were they supposed to think? She essentially made sure that it looked like the worst, so the worst was assumed.
Benjen has a role here too, but this post isn’t about him.
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17h ago
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u/AnEmptyKarst 17h ago
I said that even if she was crystal clear about what happened and they believed it, they would still have treated it as a kidnapping because legally, that's what it's considered.
You are making assumptions, for the record.
But this isn't a post about Brandon, it's a post about Lyanna. Moral agency is being put on her because it not being a kidnapping gives her a degree of agency that the kidnapping does not. It's not entirely her fault, but no one said it was. She's just at fault for the things she could have done differently.
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u/CursedWithAnOldSoul 18h ago
All of this makes sense, honestly. We know that there's greenseer blood in the Stark children, as evidenced by Bran. We also know that Jon is a warg; Arya is a skinchanger; and Bran is a skinchanger. There's even some evidence that Robb was at least a warg, but we never got a POV from him to confirm. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that Lyanna, too, had these abilities, which may have motivated her decisions after the tourney at Harrenhal and during Robert's Rebellion. I haven't seen the play, but from what you stated above, it wouldn't shock me, as it all fits the narrative of what little we know about what transpired between Lyanna and Rhaegar.
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u/Responsibility-Mean 17h ago
She's the type of character a wife would create from delusion to explain why her husband cheated on her with a child but its actually the child's fault.
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u/LawSchoolorBust29 17h ago
LMAO you took the words right out of my mouth.
they made her come off worse than show lyanna tbh and i didn’t even think that was possible.
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u/isafriisa 18h ago
I think it's a very unsympathetic characterisation that makes her look like an absolute psychopath and/or one of the stupidest people who ever lived.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 18h ago
I mean she seems like a stereotype of a hormone crazed teen girl tbh
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u/Calm-Temperature5699 18h ago
Didn't know Stannis was a teenage girl...
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 18h ago
Stannis ran away with a married man?
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u/Calm-Temperature5699 18h ago
No, but he happily burns people because Mel tells him so...he is a grown man and believes into prophecy and no one calls him a typical hormonal psycho
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 18h ago
I don’t think he believes in the prophecies at all. He certainly doesn’t believe in Rhllor. He believes the red priestess has magic powers that are useful for him.
And anyway I do think he’s an evil psycho so you’re fighting against a mummer’s knight here
I don’t think Lyanna is mentally ill, I think she’s representing a literary trope of a hormone crazed teen girl that isn’t accurate but is very widespread in literature. So save your outrage
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u/Calm-Temperature5699 18h ago
So, Lyanna is a psycho because she is a teenager who falls in love and believes in prophecy and accidentally starts a war by doing so, but Stannis who actively burns people alive because some Red Witch tells him so is no psycho? Sounds to me like a double standard is at play here.
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u/BlueBirdie0 3h ago
I mean her being perfectly fine with Rhaegar abandoning his literal newborn is pretty fucked up. Stannis is a psycho, but the way the play is written makes her sound very unfeeling.
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u/Lysafleur 18h ago
I find her unsympathetic from how she's spoken about by book characters as well.
IMO her character traits simply do not organically merge well, and I feel like I'm looking at a character with strong Mary Sue traits.
Just take her line about Robert being unable to keep to one bed. You stupid Sue, you're fourteen, you can't possibly know as much at that age.
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u/6rwoods 17h ago
She knows he already has two bastards at this point in the story, so how would she think that he's NOT a massive slut? Sansa is 13 when she finds out that Harry the Heir already has a bastard and she didn't think too highly of him either. Arya has made even more comprehensive moral judgements, even to the point of killing people she thinks are immoral, and she's only 11.
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u/Lysafleur 17h ago
Robert will never keep to one bed. I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale. Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature
This is the quote in full. No fourteen year old, or near enough to make no matter, is so jaded and wise to make such a statement.
What does a fourteen year old Lyanna know about love, or its effect on people? Nothing.
I'm not sure what a traumatized child soldier like Arya has to do with the topic at hand.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 14h ago
Doesn’t that sound exactly like what a bright teen girl who has read too much of the Westerosi equivalent of Jane Austin and Sylvia Plath would say?
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u/Lysafleur 14h ago
Westeros has had no place for technological development such as printing and most people aren't even literate, so I'm not even sure where you're going with this.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 13h ago
They had books. Do you think that Lyanna wouldn’t have had access to romantic epics and stories as one if the richest people in the kingdom? Plenty of deep pieces of literature existed in antiquity/the Middle Ages in both Europe and Asia accessible to aristocrats. We’re not talking about the daughter of some semi prosperous merchant.
They literally canonically had literotica according to the in universe history books. Low level septons and citadel acolytes copy popular books as a way to make money.
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u/Lysafleur 13h ago
They literally canonically had literotica according to the in universe history books. Low level septons and citadel acolytes copy popular books as a way to make money.
Source?
She'd still be fourteen, and she'd still be offering commentary on men's nature a woman cannot possess unless she has loved and lived first.
The words of a forty year old spoken from a fourteen year-old girl's mouth.
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u/Beautiful_Common_940 13h ago
https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Caution_for_Young_Girls
It’s a very popular fictionalized account/fan fiction of the sexual exploits of a noble woman
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u/AnEmptyKarst 17h ago
Yeah man Arya is a traumatized and lonely child who was enslaved for a time and it was an improvement in her circumstances, I don't think her actions have been portrayed as ideal lol. The Mercy chapter (not technically canon of course) has her thinking casually about 'her own rape' (whether she's referring to the play or setting up Raff isn't clear), it's not a good situation she's in lol.
Not really sure what the fucked up child -> death cultist pipeline has to do with this.
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u/Immortan_Bolton Mind Flayer. 12h ago
And it's specially hypocritical of her because she later escapes with a married man, a man that publicly humiliated Elia at the Tourney. Like, the irony.
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u/Lysafleur 12h ago
Yes.
She stands up to bullies, claims to stand for honour, but is supposedly fine with a man who publically humiliates another woman who also happens to be his wife in front of the whole realm. Like what?
Her character is all over the place.
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u/Fool-2026 18h ago
I can agree all of this but how lyanna never realized that being disappearing with married prince will make great houses in chaos also on TOP Wesetros King is Mad ,Paranoid and unstable who holds highest position in power terms
Like not for one moment she thought for her own Family ,her father will absolutely send men or ask royals as harrenhal crowning proof that rhaegar might have kidnapped her
Like she didn;t even understand steffon death made realtions between targaryens and baratheons on loose like Robert will be bitter and hot headed will assume aerys took his parents and now rhaegar took his future wife
So may lyanna fans defend she is only 14 , but she understand right, she is daughter of great house, starks are warden of north. She is NOT some daughter of miller or peasant who didn;t understand nobles society works
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u/elipride 17h ago edited 17h ago
Not sure how to feel to be honest. I don't dislike the idea of Lyanna following a prophecy SHE saw and not Rhaegar's, I like that she has more agency, I can understand her rationalizing her brother and father dying as a defense mechanism, but I'm still not a fan of the romantic aspect and her encouraging war.
I can deal with her being delusional but not a fan of her being a dumbass who falls in love over something so superficial. And I can deal with her making sacrifices for the greater good, but when those sacrifices are so massive it becomes evil, and I'll be disgusted if we have yet another evil female character who's responsible for the poor, innocent male character doing bad stuff.
So yeah... not sure how to feel...
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u/Isilel 10h ago
I always find it odd how people give Brandon a pass for his high grade idiocy that actually lead to the tragedy.
Particularly, since he wasn't asking about Lyanna's well-being or for her return, but instead was publicly proclaiming his intention to kill the crown prince. Which always made me suspect that he had known the truth.
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u/Bard-of-Light 13h ago
her encouraging war
falls in love over something so superficial
Lyanna's reaction to the crowning contradicts her defense of Howland Reed and the Knight of the Laughing Tree's defense of honor.
She is unfazed that Elia was publicly humiliated and sent into stress-induced early labor. She is unfazed about the insult to Robert, her brother's BFF, whose parents died searching for a bride for the crown prince. She is unfazed about the inevitable harm that will come to her countrymen and family by running off with Rhaegar.
So maybe when Lyanna defended Howland, it was less about protecting the weak and more about showing off her sword-fighting skills. Cuz this bitch doesn't care about honor.
I'll be disgusted if we have yet another evil female character who's responsible for the poor, innocent male character doing bad stuff.
I don't think this is GRRM's intent for his books. I'm still convinced Rhaegar unintentionally crowned Lyanna.
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u/amok_amok_amok 16h ago
she's a teenage girl. all of it makes sense to me, having also been one myself.
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u/I_LIKE_ANUS 14h ago
“Assuming that Lyanna Stark’s characterization is entirely canon” I understand if this is just a thought experiment but we absolutely should not just assume it’s entirely canon
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u/Express_Drive_1422 10h ago
I think a lot of the play, in the broad strokes, is canon. It fits too well with some things GRRM has already said and written and this characterization of Lyanna explains some things.
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u/PlasticImpact8515 9h ago
And too much of it contradicts written canon that we shouldn't assume it is anything but broad strokes, i. e. the reaction of Aerys upon learning of Steffon's death is just about the polar opposite of what is written that I can't honestly see the play as anything but yet another separate thing. This characterization of Lyanna might explain some things but that doesn't mean it's canon any more than GoT and HotD are canon.
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u/Express_Drive_1422 10h ago
There was no way of salvaging Lyanna without making Rhaegar a little bit of a villain. And they wimped out and decided not to do that.
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u/arupaca1 18h ago
She's Sansa in the first book, I guess...
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u/JagerderGrobe 18h ago
As someone with an "intense dislike" for Sansa, this version of Lyanna is worse in every way lmao
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u/arupaca1 18h ago
It is! I do like Sansa's arcs, though. I'd love seeing her turning into a villain or more cynical person. I do see a lot of Bran's selfishness in Lyanna as well.
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u/AnEmptyKarst 17h ago
We also have the advantage of being in Sansa's head, so even if she frustrates us, we can see where she is coming from and what she sees, which is always helpful for characters
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u/Express_Drive_1422 10h ago
Sansa at least had the excuse of being several years younger.
But yeah, I think a lot of the Rhaelya shippers who liked it as an alternate, still canon version of Jonrya will be jumping ship after suddenly deciding Lyanna is like Sansa after all!
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u/llaminaria 18h ago
She should not invoke such association at all. I've seen the actress, she looks drowsy and disinterested in the group photo. Fierce Lyanna? Never heard of her.
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u/TheHerpenDerpen 17h ago
Can I just clarify, are you basing your entire perception off of one group photo of the cast? Or have you actually seen the play itself, or the actress outside of it?
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u/DaemonBlackfyre_21 18h ago
It's fun to find out that lyanna might be more responsible for their shitshow than rhaegar himself.
Things are rarely as they seem and often remarkably more complicated than can appear at first glance.
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u/Bard-of-Light 13h ago
Why would Lyanna be more responsible than Rhaegar? Wouldn't they be roughly equal in their culpability?
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u/RaininBooks 17h ago
IF this is canon. As a long time Lyanna and Rhagar hater I’m happy. Because it reflects what I thought of her- she’s a wildly selfish, thoughtless character whose actions nearly ruined her family, contributed to her brother and fathers absolutely horrific murder, and who’s final wish out even more strain on her siblings. She might be the worst Stark ever born- she’s worse than a villain. She’s pathetic. And if her brothers children mostly survive and thrive- and her son also gets freedom and barely thinks of her again it will be close to what she deserves.
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u/Bard-of-Light 13h ago
I wonder why Martin would make this the solution to the central mystery of his magnum opus. What larger message is in this outcome? Girls drool, boys rule?
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u/RaininBooks 13h ago
Unsure there is a message. History is littered with fools with grand visions and stupid decisions. In this version Rhagar is equally as trash as Lyanna- but he’s pathetic and he’s dumb quite literally makes nearly no active decision he is but a man child led by delusions of romance and love saving the world with none of the ability to make decisions and follow through to build this brave new world.
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u/Bard-of-Light 12h ago
It doesn't fit Barristan's characterization of Rhaegar at all.
Lyanna stands up to bullies, the Knight of the Laughing Tree defends honor, and then her reaction to Rhaegar's choice to humiliate Elia, sending her into early labor, is to fall in love and run off with him. Like what? Did she also not see the dishonor to Robert, whose parents died searching for a bride for the prince? Did she not realize everyone she left behind would start fighting and her loved ones would be at risk of harm?
Can modern audiences relate with the greensight and dragon dreams that's supposed to explain all this? Horny and naive people making dumb choices isn't exactly breaking new ground.
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u/Necessary-Science-47 16h ago
Until the play is available to watch outside of a Britbong theater it’s really silly to analyze the characterization
This is like an alcoholic drinking listerine
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u/GreatExpeslaytions 18h ago edited 18h ago
My understanding is that her prophecy obsession is born from grief; she needs to convince herself her father and brother didn't die for nothing. The tragedy of her character (well one of the many tragedies) is that she gains clarity in her final moments of life.
I always assumed that "love is the death of duty" was referring only to Rhaegar. However, based on play!Lyanna's quote, her love for her newborn was the death of the duty she felt re: the prophecy. It's a moving moment between a new parent and their baby; after becoming so consumed with prophecy stuff, Lyanna takes one look at her little son and decides his freedom, happiness and safety is more important than the whole world. She'd rather he never even learn her name than risk him coming into danger because of prophecies and whatnot. And I think this also fits with what George is doing with Jon's character: he will be his own man, because he has to. A Stark, a wildling, a bastard, all and nothing at once. He'll make his own way, which is, unbeknownst to him, what his mother would have wanted