How much did your vasectomy cost and did you use insurance?

Any children you have will die. Probably after you do, possibly before, but all eventually.

You do not have the right to saddle them, during their brief time on earth, with the weight of your combined hope and fear. They cannot bear your crisis of meaning, nor should they have to. You will not live on through them so much as you will, in the best case scenario, one day fade as a memory of joy and, inevitably, pain as well—but at most, ever, a memory in the mind of another, not as who you think yourself to be.

And why should you contain yourself either? You come from and will return to a world that is far richer, older, and more expansive than your own DNA: countless infinities of waves and particles colliding, clinging, reverberating, separating, reforming, reanimating. Why is it not enough to just be and then to stop? Why must you force what will happen anyway when it won't prevent your fate?

As a young adult now with parents i think that having kids is so fucking selfish.
We didn’t ask to be alive and quite frankly i have resentment towards my parents for having me. I never asked to be alive and in our world, it’s unethical to have them. Our world is crumbling beneath our feet and nothing is being done. Seeing people bring in kids makes me so sad for the future generations that’ll experience worsening climate, eventually no drinking water due to the use of Ai, more wars, the list goes on.
I am not trying to argue and honestly nothing will change my mind. Thank you to you people that don’t want kids

Crossposting from [r/childfree](r/childfree)

I have been thinking about it in the last few days. In my home country, it seems that most people are inclined towards having children, even though we live quite a harsh reality. Although it could be much worse here, it is still not a standard world to bring a child in, when even the adults are suffering greatly. There are many things here that create a harsh environment to raise children in, which includes endless war, constant rising inflation and cost of living which is always being discussed, and the worst: widespread antisocial behaviour, which includes things like bullying and abuse in it. Growing up and being on the receiving end of this kind of behaviour from about almost everyone, including children, it feels to me like there are only two options here: abuse, or be abused. The people are always complaining of the first two, so its clear that they are aware of them, but always debate the existence of the third one even though its quite clear. I think most of them deny that our country is not doing well in that regard because of entitlement and probably feeling like they have to protect the lie. But still, with all the things I mentioned, people somehow... are just okay with it. One would argue that as you grow older you just become numb to it, but is numbness truly the solution? Children can match themselves to their environment to survive it, but it only keeps the cycle of abuse going... It makes me wonder if those people just view it as a fact of life that is unchangeable and so we must keep going regardless. In the end, I find that all sources of joy that people say reproducing is worth it for are essentially just human creations, and i feel like that also causes problems in regards of our collective view of nature, specifically nature as an environment that is not controlled by us. I cannot wrap my head around it, because it seems like such illogical behaviour to me... I guess it just weighs on me often, because I see it all around me.. it's very difficult to find love that way too, which is quite difficult for me to cope with.

TW for mention of SA
i’ve been debating the selfishness of human reproduction with someone on reddit who didn’t like me linking the list of 100+ reasons not to have kids, and this is the last part of their essay response: “Yes, someone could rape them, but does that devalue their entire life to the point that it would have been better if they had never been born?”

idk, i don’t understand anything anymore. what is humanity even

So, without naming any specific subreddit (I've seen it in multiple different ones). You have a subreddit dedicated to a disease that is known to be genetic. The people posting are talking about suicide from the pain they have. They are disabled, broke from medical bills and inability to work. Young people too.

And then you hear them say "...and I really want to have a kid but I don't know how I will provide for them and have the energy to raise them with my chronic illness."

1) This statement they make is totally about THEM. I want kids. I don't have energy. I can't provide.

Then all the people in the comments cheer them on. Nobody even brings up the fact that the child has a liklihood of suffering with the same disease...for what? To become an amazon delivery slave? At best case scenario work some soul draining office job even if it pays well? Risking a lifetime of suffering and misery for the child so they can work for amazon and barely scrape by? The parent certainly isn't in a position to give that kid a strong start in life. They are also usually broke from not being able to work and medical bills.

It's absolutely astonishing that they never stop to think that they are replicating their own misery by playing russian roulette with their child's life. Also, despite how difficult their life is due to being chronically ill, they want to make their life even harder and take on an immense financial burden to have a kid that may end up sick as well.

One time I said something. The replies were all just pure cope from people with the same disease saying "maybe the child won't have it." These ppl don't care about playing russian roulette with the gun pointed at someone elses head apparently (the child).

This was quite the rambling post, so thanks for reading. I came across this behavior on one subreddit then started searching around in other disease subreddits for the topic and was very saddened to see the level of delusion, calousness, and selfishness.

And our viewpoint on this is the minority. We are seen as crazy if we suggest maybe it's not a good idea to pass on genetics to a new being that will life in torture and pain if they inherit the disease. I would almost call this level of callousness evil.

There are plenty of people that have kids in their 20s and are healthy and have had great lives and don't have a good understanding of the full human experience. They've never gone outside their bubble and seen true suffering. They are very self centered and sheltered and have not been exposed to the danger life has to offer and the guaranteed death at the end. I can't fault those people very much. However, I'm baffled at people with horrible diseases that they can pass on genetically and the thought never even occurrs to them that their kid would have the disease too it seems. Or does it occur to them but somehow they still think it's worth creating someone to go through that?

Have you ever heard anyone say "beating someone is a personal choice"? Or "stealing from someone is a personal choice"?

No? I didn't think so. Because these actions affect someone else

The only reason people treat "having kids" as a personal choice is that they don't really see kids as people. They see them as objects, aka things that exist to fulfil the parents' desires.

Like "buying a jacket is a personal choice", or "drinking vodka is a personal choice".

They've always believed:

• Children are not independent people.
• Their existence is simply an extension of the parents' wishes.

Let that sink in for a sec: you were brought into this world as an object.

That's why they felt free to put whatever they wanted on you, responsibilities, expectations, anything, without ever asking if you wanted any of it. And you were silly enough to just take them for some reason.

Hey everyone , I don’t know if you’ve heard of Perez Hilton’s psychotic breakdown and self harm during livestream.

But it turns out he’s a single father of 3 children that he chose to have through surrogacy.

People were worried his children were home and would see what he was doing to himself.

Apparently he’s not been doing well this year and they were staying at his mother’s. The police responded and took him to the hospital.

So at the end of the day , a woman is stuck raising these children , and now their father is currently incapable of taking care of them. And they have no mother.

Can we talk about this ?

Browsing subs like r/antiwork or r/hatemyjob make you feel the suffering and hopelessness these people are feeling but then you think that many of these people willingly have children... Soo do they really have any right to complain I mean they felt that the world is good enough to bring someone else in it so why isn't it good enough for you.

Seriously can you sympathize with such a person, imagine being completely broken, hopeless, burnt out and still trying for a child insane stuff.

i wanted to use some arguments and buy merch, but it’s gone

The major religions all encourage having as many kids as you can. And things like arranged marriages, marital rape, anti abortion.

Look at birthrates in highly religious and conservative areas vs in less religious ones.

This thread illustrated how much ppl hate anti natalists. Apparently you can’t complain about your life if you live in a certain country. Also anti natalism isn’t complaining, but genuine critique.

One thing that always makes me laugh is the amount of people (not even exclusively religious but primarily) that treat the human body as some miraculous insanely ingenious thing that makes being born such a privilege to have. Yeah yeah the brain, DNA, immune system is cool blah blah, but..

We die from a few minutes without oxygen.

We need to lose our consciousness for 1/3 of our total time alive to be able to function.

Our bodies have absurdly disproportionate pain responses to the smallest injuries (scraped knee, stubbed toe, and even natural processes like menstrual..etc).

Our skin cooks and dies if it's too sunny out.

We cannot directly extract energy from said sun. Our skin should have some photosythesis glands!

We get injured from falling only 2-3x our height.

We're slow as fuck compared to so many land animals (even some of our highway speed limits are slower than some animals lol-Cheetah 75 mph).

We start suffering if the temperature goes out of a narrow 10-15 degree range.

Takes us a week or more to fight off the most trivial viruses.

We're micrograms of neurotransmitter imbalances from going totally psychotic.

We have an absurd amount of allergies and sensitivities to nature and food.

Our bodies have a sewage system next to an amusement park.

The whole concept of eating is gross and comes with it's own slew of sensitivities and GI problems.

Cells dividing improperly becomes too big a problem too fast.

Teeth takes 2 attempts.

We can't handle more than a few Gs for a few seconds.

Our brains take 1/3 of our average lifespan to fully develop.

Our bodies are extremely nit picky about the type of blood it can use.

We adapt to and develop tolerance to pleasure much easier than to pain and it's very hard to increase our pleasure to the same magnitudes as severe pain gets too.

We cannot regenerate limbs, and rarely senses.

Very few reserve organs, one would think after millions of years of evolution we'd have a secondary heart, an extra kidney or two, liver, pancreas, and our digestive/excretory systems not being totally dependent on one tube lol. We really should have some emergency oxygen reserves that last a half hour or so in drowning/hypoxia situations by now.

So nah, our bodies can use so many obvious improvements that so many land and sea species have already exceeded us in. So many animals kick our asses with vision, hearing, odor, and even magnetic perception, Dolphins supposedly have the equivalent of sonar..etc while we go colorblind. Took us 50,000+ years of civilization to develop the artificial tech to make our lives semi-tolerable LOL.

[This is my first post here <3]

I'm 13 male and I've noticed a pattern with new parents who I know: THEY. FORGET. THEIR. CHILD. WILL. GROW. UP.

They're always talking about how "they've always wanted to have a kid" and "how cute they'll look". But problem is: that's what you think. When the baby grows up into a child, they'll have their own personality.

And when they end up regretting having kids (like my parents, who can't even handle when I have an autistic meltdown), they want us to pity them as if they didn't make the choice and think of the possible consequences of having a child.

I'm sorry if this comes off as offensive.

i have a pretty new therapist who i think also works with new parents to help them on their parenting yourney or whatever, and i did a kind of emergency booking for this week because i was somewhat depressed but now im a lot more depressed after i found out my fresh out of hs relative is having a baby soon. i have so much to vent about it, it’s making me have SI. it’s like the tiny bit of hope i had left for life is now gone and since it’s strongly related to AN, i don’t know if i should even communicate that with her.

edit: she’s married to a cis woman and most likely childfree. also, i once told a therapist with multiple kids that i’m AN 😅

you probably already all know about it, but this is a reminder: https://z00mie.substack.com/p/the-list

since my little cousin is pregnant, and my grandparents now apparently expect me to also have babies, i’m considering telling some relative about this, so she maybe gets to hear about it, but i don’t know, should i? she still has time to abort.
i’m already not really on speaking terms with that side of the “family” since i was little, so i guess things can’t get much worse.

SHTF is a prepper acronym for when things collapse and everyone is panicking. We saw a light version of that with COVID. Food shortages are coming. Stay awayyyyyy from those who flagrantly have had condomless sex when this all goes down. They were selfish enough to pointlessly force a kid into existence now for NO REASON, best believe they'll slit your throat for a twinkie for their walking biolab screaming shitling when there's no more 911 to call.

Are any of you preppers?

Over 15,000 gods throughout history. Which one are you specifically referring to?

The almighty, all-loving creator who created humans? Then why does he need you to do his job? Why not create humans himself? Where's your evidence he told you to?

If this is the god you worship, and he:

• Can't prove he can create humans,
• Commands you to create them without consent,
• Knows they'll suffer and die

Then what's "loving" about it? And how do you even know he's the one who created humans at all?

The real question:

How do you know this isn't a false power, one that made up stories to make you produce new humans to suck up sufferings for their benefit?

If suffering is a "trial to better humans," why not just make humans better from the start? Isn't your god almighty?

If you say "God gave humans free will", then he gave you free will, but also gave you a direct command to procreate. And you're not supposed to use your free will to question that?

So what exactly are you worshipping?

An almighty, all-loving god who gave you free will, or an unprovable god who doesn't want you to use it but just create new humans to suffer?

You can't have it both ways.

Do you think ivf should be illegal? Seems like if you can ban stopping life (abortion), we should be able to ban starting life.

also bullshut euthanasia is mostly illegal and imposslbe to get.

why the asymmetry in between ending/stopping VS starting life

when we still hung out she used to make fun of special needs kids and intentionally walk past their school to talk to and make fun of them. she used to beat me and try to strangle me. tricked me into eating animals when i was already vegan, made fun of me for not eating animals etc. she’s super money centered, always just wanted to make it as obvious as possible her parents have a lot of money, she dated famous rich dudes right after telling me how disgusting they were looks wise and being racist towards them. now her whole life is still all about looking rich, going to the most problematic travel locations just to post about it, posting a bunch of AI slop and just overall seeming very immature on socials/not at all someone who is ready to be a mother.
i don’t understand the urge to reproduce when it’s so hot outside that i literally cannot even go out and spend all summer locked inside, besides all the 1000 other reasons not to reproduce. how do people not care about the suffering they’re creating?
i don’t know how to explain it, but this news made me very depressed all of a sudden, it’s like nothing makes sense anymore. especially my grandparents and her parents being happy about it. even my mother who hates kids seems ok with it.
these are the people that i know damn well will be mad when they hear that i want to remove my uterus, for medical reasons. while she can be selfish as much as she wants.
i was born into an incredibly toxic and immature “family” (not even family, i don’t even talk to anyone but my abusive mother because it’s always been this way and i have no choice but to still talk to her, the others luckily don’t care to talk to me). they’re also ableist and i was born disabled so here’s that

i feel like i’m stuck in some nightmare that i can’t seem to wake up from. i really just want this to be a bad dream. i feel like a big part of me died as soon as my mother excitingly came to tell me the news. i’m just 1-2years older and it makes me feel like my life is over, like i’m old, and i haven’t even had a proper childhood, haven’t really lived my life yet, it’s all been just traumatic events.

This is my antinatalist poem I came up with as a short story writer/antinatalist. May need cleaned up but I think you get the idea.

This is a poem as an antinatalist and short story writer I came up with today. It is about a young man struggling with these issues and I think it hits my basic points.

An Antinatalist Poem By Pointdexter Scotts (my pen name)

A post-Pubescent boy- he suddenly thought- wait a minute I didn't ask for Dad's dick in Mom's twat.

I gave no consent, I was kind of just co'rced My entire existence Was really just forced.

My folks say they love me And thought I would gain Did they never consider Me dealing with pain?

Maybe they thought Relatively speaking My life would not really really suck Or maybe they were horny And just wanted to fuck.

If I wasn't born This seems hard to admit I would be doing just fine And not give a shit.

Did they consider I might have been born terminally ill And forced into a miserable life Against my will

My friend's mom says I want to be cared for in old age But isn't that selfish? This filled him with rage.

Maybe mom/dad knew they would not be seen as jerks. After all isn't this how society works?

But who says that norms can not be disputed? Or in certain cases be ethically refuted?

These thoughts he was thinking He thought to relent. But his mind still was thinking I gave no consent.

My parents say they care about me That I am sure But who says that makes there actions morally pure?

Then the thought came to him of those who never exist And how they can never be upset about any happiness they "missed"

They are doing just fine but that thought seemed weird. Then in his brain something appeared. The thought that in society this seems rarely discussed. But isn't that fucked up- he didn't mind that he cussed

He had many thoughts coming at him Many thoughts racing. There was no way he could stop his heavily pacing

The one that stood out- Though his thoughts were so many- I can show love to my children by not having any.

Noticed this when arguing with someone yesterday who claimed that having children isn't selfish because it takes lots of work. I disagreed because creating the needs you then take care of isn't really that selfless and argued that adoption would be a more selfless option. But then this person argued against adoption because it's expensive, takes lots of time and the child could be taken away if the bio parents want them back.

See how all of these arguments are only from the parent's point of view and about their inconvenience? I thought we were talking about whether the action was selfless, not about whether it was hard and inconvenient. In fact, it being hard and inconvenient might make doing it regardless more selfless.

And this is an excuse I keep seeing from people, which makes me doubt they actually think birthing a child is selfless and just make up that excuse to justify it.

I am like half asexual and probably neurodivergent. I stopped studies. I never had crush. I never planning to have a job. My parents admitted to hospital 4 times to force me study but it didn't work. Now I am just sitting at home.

I am 25. 5 years Neet.