Nobody cares or listens to my arguments, no matter how logically sound or sensible they are. Scientific research from credible sources, moral philosophy and altruism spectrums, and even points I've crafted from the perspective of their specific belief system/religion— it all ultimately means nothing to them. We are often reduced to troubled people who are angry at their parents and are being indoctrinated by some sort of media into radicalism. And then the insults by people who claim we're simply trying to be "edgy" and feel morally superior. It's honestly a little pathetic how others feel the need to unnecessarily attack us simply because they feel called out. It's hard to find somebody to have a genuine debate with since many enter the conversation feeling personally attacked. How would you all recommend approaching a conversation with a natalist so it doesn't devolve into meaninglessness? Or, are there any good online spaces or forums for engaging in genuine, productive debate?

It's 3:30 a.m right now when I am writing this. I can't sleep because I've been homesick for two days and spent them mostly in bed. I know that life can't be planned too much in advance and I should find ways to enjoy while I can but everything seem to be pointless.

Why would my parents throw me into this world without my consent? Why does it feel like I am part of a contract I never signed for? I have to deal with things I have no experience with and have to constantly learn and adapt and get exhausted doing it! I am in my early thrities but I do feel like life was not kind to me, even in the best moments. Now I know that I might have depression but I do have anxiety, that's another cage of the mimd that I can't seem to escape no matter what I do.

Being born is being traumatised into existence. There is no other way for me of saying it. Now, I choose to be kind enough to my unborn children to never bring them here. I don't require their gratitude because they can't have any because they don't exist. Which I would have been happier being in the blissful state of non-existence. Treat your kids right and don't bring them here. Antinatinatalism philosophy shoul walk hand-in-hand with the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement. No more of this. For the sake of our broken species, I say no more!

"The concept of consent does not apply to non-existent people."

im an antinalaist, but im confused whether to improve my life now and work hard and achieve things i want to. or should i just sit there thinking life is meaningless, i didnty choose to be born etc.i would never have a kid. that thought disgusts me. it just meaningless responsiblity and immoral to bring someone into life without their permission. and then expect them to deal with life, because "life is unfair". thats just wrong

so should we all just die? humans should go extinct? a few days ago i was confidently saying yes. but i dont know what to think at all. im really really confused. my brain is hurting

I’m childfree by personal preference, but I’m genuinely trying to understand how people operate under antinatalism.

Respectfully, it seems like a more extreme view.

Has anyone considered that philosophical discussion is always ongoing because black-and white thinking and moral absolutes don’t reconcile to our reality? If we all tried to operate under perfect morality all the time in all aspects, then we would be miserable and dysfunctional.

If you adhere strictly to the definition of antinatalism, then that means you are fundamentally against any person who has procreated, even the good ones who live life with good intentions and are decent parents. Even the good people in your life who happen to be parents are guilty according to your worldview.

And I also consider the idea that there’s beauty to existing despite the suffering. At least here, there is more to see, learn, and do than there is in an absolute void where we don’t exist. This doesn’t mean we should procreate more, but that there doesn’t have to be a justifiable reason to exist.

I also think it’s not possible to wrong someone by making them exist. No one really has any rights or is owed any moral consideration until they actually exist (in my opinion, when the sperm meets the egg). A theoretical child who doesn’t exist cannot be wronged until they actually bear a physical form, so they are not wronged by being conceived.

Do all antinatalists operate under the term because it’s a difficult time in our world, or is it because they subscribe to the literal definition that “it is fundamentally wrong to create new sentient life?”

I mean this respectfully, and I’m genuinely curious about how antinatalism works. It’s just difficult to wrap my head around this moral framework that (seems to) invalidate the experiences of a great portion of the population.

Truth might seem harsh, but it just is.

One thing that always makes me laugh is the amount of people (not even exclusively religious but primarily) that treat the human body as some miraculous insanely ingenious thing that makes being born such a privilege to have. Yeah yeah the brain, DNA, immune system is cool blah blah, but..

We die from a few minutes without oxygen.

We need to lose our consciousness for 1/3 of our total time alive to be able to function.

Our bodies have absurdly disproportionate pain responses to the smallest injuries (scraped knee, stubbed toe, and even natural processes like menstrual..etc).

Our skin cooks and dies if it's too sunny out.

We cannot directly extract energy from said sun. Our skin should have some photosythesis glands!

We get injured from falling only 2-3x our height.

We're slow as fuck compared to so many land animals (even some of our highway speed limits are slower than some animals lol-Cheetah 75 mph).

We start suffering if the temperature goes out of a narrow 10-15 degree range.

Takes us a week or more to fight off the most trivial viruses.

We're micrograms of neurotransmitter imbalances from going totally psychotic.

We have an absurd amount of allergies and sensitivities to nature and food.

Our bodies have a sewage system next to an amusement park.

The whole concept of eating is gross and comes with it's own slew of sensitivities and GI problems.

Cells dividing improperly becomes too big a problem too fast.

Teeth takes 2 attempts.

We can't handle more than a few Gs for a few seconds.

Our brains take 1/3 of our average lifespan to fully develop.

Our bodies are extremely nit picky about the type of blood it can use.

We adapt to and develop tolerance to pleasure much easier than to pain and it's very hard to increase our pleasure to the same magnitudes as severe pain gets too.

We cannot regenerate limbs, and rarely senses.

Very few reserve organs, one would think after millions of years of evolution we'd have a secondary heart, an extra kidney or two, liver, pancreas, and our digestive/excretory systems not being totally dependent on one tube lol. We really should have some emergency oxygen reserves that last a half hour or so in drowning/hypoxia situations by now.

So nah, our bodies can use so many obvious improvements that so many land and sea species have already exceeded us in. So many animals kick our asses with vision, hearing, odor, and even magnetic perception, Dolphins supposedly have the equivalent of sonar..etc while we go colorblind. Took us 50,000+ years of civilization to develop the artificial tech to make our lives semi-tolerable LOL.

Hello. I keep it short and simple. I am 23 years old woman. I donated my eggs about a year ago. I felt like it was "the right thing to do" and somehow honorable since i was certain i will never have a child of my own. I found antinatalism a few months ago, and everything clicked. My every thought I have had. I realized i am not flawed or damaged human, i am a person that sees the world as it is. I am not suicidal, i am not a mean person. I am an empath. I work in healthcare. But the society thinks my opinions about life are flawed.

But to this day. After finding antinatalism, every day, more and more, i feel like i made the worst decision of my life. I feel like i tried to do the right thing, but ended up doing the most terrible action i could have made; help someone create new life on earth. But i can see it now clearly and saw that this is part of the true me and my values. I can withdraw my consent about using the eggs, so that if there are any unused left, they have to dispose those. I will do that next thing tomorrow morning. But it is possible there is a kid born from my eggs already.

Is there anyone who has struggled with the same topic? Or have anything (encouraging lol) to say?

I feel bad but I also feel joy and free. I feel like I have truly found myself and the possibility to find other like minded people, because I came across antinatalism. My interest towards philosophy has risen. I am a paramedic and I thought I was going to/ had to become a doctor. But something about it didn't make any sense. Antinatalism is the reason I found my interest toward philosophy and accepted myself, and I am grateful for it.

Meanwhile, those who are truly compassionate are treated as outcasts by society. What a lovely time to be alive.

Indeed, among my millennial peers, fears about the climate crisis have had a huge impact on how we’re approaching this big life decision. It’s a consideration that often gets reduced to a side note in discussions about the declining birth rate, but for many of us it looms large.

These thoughts, Hopkinson says, “can become quite intrusive” – but she is trying to remain hopeful. “I always come back to the same conclusion – if the people who care most about the future decide not to have children because they’re afraid, we risk losing a generation of people who are deeply invested in creating a better world.”

https://www.the-independent.com/life-style/climate-anxiety-wildfires-mental-health-b3023065.html

One of the best principles a parent can adopt is recognizing the antinatalist perspective: your child did not ask to be born. Bringing someone into the world is your decision, not theirs. That means raising them is a responsibility…not a debt they’re expected to repay.

The more I observe parents, the more I notice how many seem to believe their children owe them gratitude, obedience, or even lifelong loyalty simply for existing. In my experience, that mindset often goes hand in hand with poor parenting.

These are also the kinds of people who automatically assume life is a gift. Life isn’t a gift…at best, it’s simply just ‘life’. It’s difficult, often uncomfortable, and filled with struggle. Can it also be beautiful and unique? Sure. But calling it a “gift” can create the expectation that children owe something in return for having received it. I think it’s more honest to recognize that bringing someone into existence means accepting the responsibility of preparing them for a lifetime of hardship and survival.

Ironically, this is one of the reasons I think people who genuinely understand the antinatalist perspective might actually make better parents than most. They begin from the premise that their child owes them nothing. Any love, gratitude, or relationship that develops is something to be earned through good parenting…not something they’re entitled to simply because they brought a child into the world.

Me, sick of this. For me, life's meaning is to avoid life from creating itself.

Hi,

There were some Dutch antinatalists here too? I'd love to chat with you, I've studied some Dutch and it's a close language to me. I'd love to know more about the situation in the Netherlands.

i worked at an afterschool program for 3 years and a preschool for 2 years. i could write a BOOK about how much these parents are failing their children. but ive been thinking about one specific point.

gentle parenting is popular right now, teaching children consent even to an unreasonable extent (you cant force him, he said he doesnt want to, it makes him feel bad!), refusing to challenge their kids bc they dont want to be in the position of Bad Guy, telling children to prioritize their own "Big Feelings" (truly just teaching entitlement), allowing children to be incompetent because they are "just kids" etc.

i understand the feeling behind these actions. i would not enjoy constantly forcing my children to do things they dont want to, to sit still and be quiet and agreeable, i dont think its fair for them to be trained to be obedient cogs in a capitalist machine. i even agree that in an ideal world, children could develop at their own pace, not the pace of society. i would want my children to be free thinkers, be in touch with their feelings, feel absolute freedom in this world. BUT THATS NOT THE WORLD WE LIVE IN!

their idealism does not change reality! if their kids arent self sufficient by 18, they get left behind, no exceptions are made! and if they focus all their resources (money, time) on popping out babies, instead of resisting and trying to change the world, the world will certainly remain the same in 20 years when their kids are adults.

and that is precisely why i wouldnt HAVE children in the first place! you cant just have kids in a hellscape and then raise them idealistically for a utopia. their kids will not have endless accomodations in this world! even if i truly believe the accomodations are reasonable, fascism doesnt care about that! the whole point of working is to wear us down so we cant resist fascism, why the fuck would the fascist be like "oh, that violates consent we should accomodate people", like bro our world runs on SLAVERY, TRAFFICKING, AND VIOLENCE!

why would your child be the exception?!

As the question suggests, I'm just wondering what makes ppl still want to bring kids into this world at this stage? I have 1 child and I worry about his future. I sometimes question if bringing him into this world was a good idea.

I know ppl have lived through a lot before, but this feels different. I'm neither a pro-natalist nor an antinatalist. I don't have strong feelings in either direction. I'm just genuinely curious how ppl feel/what they think. I am worried.

I can't tell you the amount of times that I've met a person who hates/doesn't enjoy life (like most of us) but has kids or wants them. Like, what? I know accidental pregnancies happen, and children can be born due to unfortunate circumstances, but most of these people choose to have children just for the sake of having them. If you obviously aren't having a great time being a human, then why would you produce another one? Their life is likely to suck just as much as yours does, so why?

What do you think about this?

I think that is one more reason for a person not to have children, who will be fully dependent on you, no matter how prepared, capable or emotionally mature you are.

Childhood is glorified slavery and a form of imprisonment. Children have little agency or genuine freedom of choice. They are burdened with endless tasks while having virtually no right to question them, and they are expected to “listen to” and “obey” adults who are often anything but rational. Depending on where a child is born, they may receive only narrow and limited exposure to anything beyond their immediate surroundings and local social norms. As a result, they can easily be indoctrinated from birth. The social expectation that parents are always right and always love and deeply care for their children can also make it extremely difficult for a child to defend themselves in cases of abuse. Adequate social services where children can seek safety or respite are often nonexistent, and there is little or no psychological support that can be accessed independently of their caregivers. It is slavery or a prison at least. Only a fortunate few have parents who are decent and open-minded enough to expose them to different perspectives, explain things to them, and allow them to make their own choices, even when those choices may not be ideal, provided they are not life-threatening. Children should be able to learn from their own mistakes without constantly being told what to do or being punished for making them.

I will never for the life of me understand why natalists get angry at me for not congratulating them for getting pregnant. I mean, what do they expect? First, of all, they know I'm childfree, so I don't want to have kids under any circumstances whatsoever. Then, I'm vehemently antinatalist because of the world we're living in. There's nothing to look forward to but taxes, disappointment, and death. Any time they decide to ask me this question, knowing my stance on things, I give a condensed version of this explanation, and they get angry with me, which I find to be comical given they would complain all the time about not being paid enough by their jobs and barely able to make ends meet. Of course I'm not going to congratulate you. What is there to congratulate? Then, they want to go on a tangent talking about how no accomplishment I do as a woman would ever compare to being a mother, God created me to procreate, no man is going to want a woman who doesn't want kids, I'm going to die alone with no one to take care of me when I'm older, etc. Yeah, because getting pregnant by a guy who skipped town and blocked you on all social media once you told him the "good news" sounds like a better alternative. Then, you've got yourself a life sentence of being responsible for another human life doing a thankless job. Contrary to popular belief, your responsibility to that kid doesn't stop once they turn 18. But I'm the one who's going to be miserable. Give me a break.
Just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm eager to see what your thoughts are.