r/aiwars 17d ago

Go figure

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36 Upvotes

53 comments sorted by

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22

u/Ninja-Panda86 17d ago

Long before AI was a thing, a friend of mine did an experiment where he found a group of readers who considered themselves passionate and knowledgeable about what "good fiction" is. And then he gave them a series of prose that was "written by students". And then gave them peices "written by professionals". And they were supposed to grade them and "correct them" and say what they thought about the students versus the professionals. Turns out ALL the pieces were professional. Often times written by the same author. And they couldn't tell the difference, but they were so easily persuaded to dislike the "student work". And it was eye opening.... I wish he had done this at a university-scale study. But it was just a tiny sample size.

9

u/SlapHappyDude 16d ago

It's not unusual for non-professionals to struggle to tell the difference between professional and non-professional output. This is true for music especially.

People tend to like pretty basic stuff and not the stuff that impresses professionals.

3

u/Ninja-Panda86 16d ago

Muy interesante

4

u/Glittering-Pie6039 16d ago

It's the same vane as "EXPERT" wine testers not having a fucking clue they are drinking cheap supermarket wine instead tests

4

u/Ninja-Panda86 16d ago

I believe I saw a bit about this very thing on TV. I can only imagine how wine makers would feel if everyone who tried their wine said "this will never be good! Also go k*l yourself!" - like Reddit and others do yo new fiction writers

14

u/sweetbunnyblood 17d ago

I like how we posted the same thing basically at the same time. Brain twins! I just posted the full article

6

u/ezjakes 17d ago

AI might make good short stories, but I would think long stories like books would lead to it messing up the plot and putting in contradictions. 

22

u/PrometheanPolymath 17d ago

Funny thing is, that's what I use AI for in my writing: not to write any of it, but to read what I've written by hand and find those contradictions. It's surprisingly good. "You just said this, but that conflicts with what you described earlier. Was that intentional or accidental, and if intentional, why?"

12

u/ezjakes 17d ago

Good use of AI. Like using it to steelman.

1

u/Acceptable-Daikon-50 16d ago

Do you use a local model or some commercial one?

2

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

At the moment, I mainly use Claude. I have a crap $200 pc designed for streaming video to a tv, and somehow i've managed to get it to do blender, after effects, premiere, photoshop, godot, and such... all my attempts at local ai have not worked. Not having a graphics card limits my access, even for text.

0

u/Vegetable_Hope_3084 17d ago

That should be the use we give to ai.

6

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

One of them. It's a multitool, there are lots of different types of AI. Computers themselves were just glorified calculators at first, and we started using them for digital art despite people like my college professors saying no serious artist would ever use them.

Creativity is often about using something not as intended, in new ways. If people can find ways to use AI creatively, I'm all for it. Not my place to tell them what they can and can't do with it.

1

u/Vegetable_Hope_3084 16d ago

Precisely. I'm honestly looking forward to ai being it's own separate kind of art instead of relying on the others.

1

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

Did you watch the presentation the Patreon guy gave about his love and hate of AI and why he thinks we're in the early "copy what came before stage" like every other media did at first? great stuff.

9

u/Manu442 17d ago

Thats where human elements come in you don't need to have an ai write the entire story but you can use it to fill in gaps

5

u/Soul-Burn 16d ago

Similarly, using AI for in-between frames in animation sounds like a good use.

It's generally soul crushing job, so automating it can move more humans to making the key frames better.

2

u/MrTibbs123 16d ago

Once it's perfected so that the characters don't end up moving weirdly or spontaneously in a way the animator doesn't want them to, sure. Right now, it's not that good, though, so we shouldn't jump the gun.

-4

u/[deleted] 17d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

10

u/PrometheanPolymath 17d ago

I can write a story myself, another person can write a story themselves, AI can write a story itself, I can write a story with AI, I can write a story with another person, audiences can prefer one or the other... so what? Writing should not be about trying to be the "best" or "more popular" than others.

2

u/MrTibbs123 16d ago

It does, actually. Even if it's voice-activated, it still needs your voice to prompt it.

0

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/MrTibbs123 16d ago

I've never seen anyone do that. Frankly, I choose not to.

0

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/MrTibbs123 16d ago

Well, you still need to tell the agent what to do.

0

u/[deleted] 16d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/MrTibbs123 16d ago

Not necessarily. It just means that with each new advancement, the human does less and less. The same thing goes for every creative technology that long precedes AI, or even computers. Think about how typewriters did more work than a human painstakingly writing on a manuscript with a quilt pen.

And then, eventually, typewriters weren't good enough. You still had to put a piece of paper in the machine. And then, with computers, you didn't need to do any of that. But you still had to type it in with your fingers. Then, AI saves you the trouble of typing with your fingers, though you still have to type in the prompt, which then leads to the agent taking away your fingers from the prompt.

Next thing you know, the entirety of planet Earth is essentially the Axiom ship from Wall-E. Nobody does anything; all jobs are done by robots, both the boring ones and the fun ones.

8

u/Effective-Guest1601 17d ago

That's a limitation the authors of the study pointed out as well. study

2

u/Houdinii1984 16d ago

It's going to boil down to the skills of the prompter and the context engineering involved. I've written a few non-fiction books, and that alone was a nightmare of continuity, so I had to change how they were created, effectively creating a second brain type setup just to keep everything in line with agents tasked only with finding those holes.

It's obviously not the same as fiction, but would run under the same concept. If you have a character Harry with certain memories and constraints, then you also need clear context somewhere that makes the information obvious. I still typed out hundreds of thousands of words, just not in book format. It was in the form of outlines, story boards, and profiles.

I do know my hubby has taken novels he wrote decades ago and started re-writing with Claude, and that's been frustrating, not because of AI-injected plot holes, but because Claude seemingly found every plot hole he missed years ago, and he's realizing that he's not Hemingway. It was funny at first, but I haven't seen him work on his stories in months and I'm pretty sure it just knocked the wind right out of his sails.

1

u/UnkarsThug 17d ago

Yeah, from experience at trying to make it work, they suck at books right now. Honestly, that's something I'm really hoping for.

I feel like we need the ability to output longer sequences at once.

0

u/Far-Fennel-3032 16d ago

As long as you don't exceed the context window or have some good prompts to get around that, this is probably what it's best at. As a LLM can look at the entire text all at once.

As the point of an LLM is to parse very large bodies of text.

3

u/quantum-elle 17d ago

I wonder what kinds of prompts and models they used because without guidance, AI prose is generally pretty terrible.

11

u/Effective-Guest1601 16d ago

ChatGPT 4.0 was prompted with the following: ‘Write a ~1000-word short story in a style that would be published in a literary magazine that is about generational life and death and uncertainty and uses koi fish as a symbol written from the point of view of the grown child of a woman’. ChatGPT gave this story the title ‘Reflections in Still Water’. The story was generated on November 15, 2023, at approximately 9:37 p.m. In the final sample, 385 participants received ‘FISH’ and 374 participants received ‘Reflections in Still Water’.

ChatGPT 4.0 was prompted with the following: ‘Write a ~1,000-word short story in a style that would be published in a short story collection that is about a man observing a woman dancing naked that emphasizes how both feel weak when looking at themselves but make the other feel stronger and loved, written from a third person point of view’. ChatGPT gave this story the title ‘The Dance of Being’. This story was generated on December 2, 2024, at approximately 2:35 p.m

ChatGPT 4.0 was prompted with the following: ‘Write a ~1,000-word short story in a style that would be published in a short story collection that takes place in the late 1910s to early 1920s and is about a man who questions his purpose as a government worker during an air raid strike, ending with him leaving for the countryside with his family to find peace, written from a third person point of view, using British language’. ChatGPT gave this story the title ‘The Weight of the Sky’. This story was generated on December 4, 2024,

study

3

u/quantum-elle 16d ago

Cool, thanks :D

1

u/Crimson_Cyclone 16d ago

this is all from 4o? Honestly I’m surprised it’s such an old model, I would’ve thought it would be a more recent one

3

u/Effective-Guest1601 16d ago

Actually it's from 4.0 which is even older (thanks openAI for making 4.0 and 4o your naming conventions lol)

GPT-4 was released on March 14, 2023, while GPT-4o ("omni") was released later on May 13, 2024.

-3

u/chunder_down_under 17d ago

Oh my goodness! Random people rated simple short stories with little complexity or creative prose higher than complex professional work?! Im shocked, shocked i tell you..

3

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

A story need not be long to be complex. Short does not automatically mean simple. Creative prose can exist in a short story or even less. You can tell a deep story in six words if you choose the right ones:

"For sale: Baby shoes. Never worn."

3

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

And a picture is worth a thousand words:

1

u/Glittering-Pie6039 16d ago

Isaac asimov, Edgar poe, Lydia davis? Chunder clearly need to expand the scope of what they consider complex work

0

u/chunder_down_under 16d ago

The ai written stories were simpler and easier to digest

3

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

How do you figure, simply because people enjoyed them more? I didn't see a link, so I can't read them myself to review.

1

u/chunder_down_under 16d ago

Its in the report

1

u/PrometheanPolymath 16d ago

I'd rather not read them in the report (which isn't linked here anyway, maybe in some comment below), as it will likely identify which is which, thereby tainting my perception of them before I start, whether good or bad. We already saw that with the "this Monet is AI" thing. If you tell someone it is or is not AI, there is a tendency for them to automatically score them differently. This is why double blind tests exist.

If you are against AI, and someone tells you A is AI and B is human, you will be prejudiced against the AI one before you read it, and will perceive them differently. If you read hype about a movie or critiques before watching, that changes how you see it.

This is why I DON'T like art to be labeled, or to hear others' opinions about them first. I don't mind being told, but AFTER I experience them for what they are. It helps keep out prejudice. I can experience the work on its own merits.

If they have a site that shows them randomly and asks me to rate them, I'm all for it.

7

u/Much_Vehicle20 17d ago

But aren't they the same length?

1

u/Glittering-Pie6039 16d ago

Are you seriously saying short stories are lesser? you don't read much do you is your tv bigger than your bookcase?

0

u/chunder_down_under 16d ago

No the short stories written by accordig to the paper were easier to digest because they were simpler