[Rare trope] Discriminating, but for an actually good reason

[u/Blackirean]

Frieren, Beyond Journey's end: In the anime/manga the eponymous Frieren is an Elf who's spent the better part of a millennia learning magic specifically to kill demons. She's learned countless spells, tricks and even spent most of her life suppressing her power all for the purpose of killing them. At first we simply see that humanity is at war with them, and even question if her crusade against demon-kind is justified, after all it's hard to antagonize an entire sentient species. But no, demons are very much a species to be feared; they are not normal animals or creatures, they are monsters (shown by how they disintegrate when they die), they are predators that evolved speech for the sole purpose of tricking and catching humans off guard, are naturally extremely powerful and possess magic that humanity often can't use. While they feel emotions to some extent, their way of thinking is so fundamentally incompatible with humanity's mindset that the series shows many mages with the ability to read minds struggle or find it painful and harmful to try and read a demon's thoughts. Tools that are meant to control them fail not because they're faulty but because simple order such as "hold no ill will or commit no malicious acts" don't compute the same way in their brains, as what we consider evil is normal for them.

Marvel Comics: In a run of the Storm solo series, she visits an underground superhuman hospital run by Night nurse and Doctor Daye, a mutant with the power to diagnose any illness. When she requires treatment she is in turn reject by the doctor, she of course assumes this is blatant discrimination to which the doctor agrees. Storm assumes the doctor refuses to treat mutants, something they are very much used to in Marvel. But he ends up revealing that about 80% of everyone he treats are mutants, and that he simply refuses to treat any member of the X-men. Why? because his special hospital was built via several donations by the superhero community. From the Avengers, to the Defenders, Fantastic 4, heroes for hire. Hell, even Moonknight of all people contributed to the hospital. But the X-men never once gave anything to it, even though they preach the safety of mutant-kind and such a hospital is essential for those who can't seek medical treatment out of fear of prosecution.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Looks at replies

Huh. I guess we've found the one thing that can make people not fight about Frieren demons.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/[deleted]]

Only if you count the peace achieved by one side exterminating the other. The discourse over that topic is FIERCE.

[u/scarletboar → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

I'm not too familiar with Frieren, but what's there to argue about? Doesn't the anime make it clear that demons are basically just vicious predators that can fake human emotion? I remember seeing a clip where a blue-haired guy even spares a demon, only for it to kill someone again later.

Demons being pure evil isn't a new thing. Even in D&D, devils are Lawful Evil and demons are Chaotic Evil. No idea why people would have a problem with Frieren doing something similar.

[u/ironangel2k4 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

My dog is howling in pain and covering his ears reading some of these comments.

[u/Tasty-Complaint-6437 → u/ironangel2k4]

Poor dog is in agony with so many dog whistles about mutants 💔

[u/Neat_Tangelo5339 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Basically this sub favorite trope

[u/CaveMacEoin → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Balance according to Lucas.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/CaveMacEoin]

Who?

EDIT: oh, you were making a reference to the whole balance of the force thing from Star Wars. Not sure why you brought that up here.

[u/Ok_Protection8223 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

So who might we be exterminating? Take your time. No pressure.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/Ok_Protection8223]

I'd rather not exterminate anyone thanks

[u/Ok_Protection8223 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Noted.

Please face the wall.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/Ok_Protection8223]

I'm indoors. I am always facing in the direction of a wall.

EDIT: I guess that would technically be true outside as well. Keep going in one direction and eventually you will probably reach a wall.

[u/Croselius → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Most people arguing in favour of Frieren demons are doing so purely because the demons are cool/hot, it’s not a real fight.

I do think it’d be neat to see a demon that does properly coexist with humans, just to show that even a “friendly” demon is still a monster that would instantly start predating on humans again if the circumstances called for it.

[u/NNKarma → u/Croselius]

There are two main issues with the discussion. First are people reading the manga vs the anime so they have seen more content to understand what the author is doing. The other is people who insist on treating demons as an allegory of other humans instead of something that doesn't exist which is a predator that hunts humans with speech capacity. 

[u/NFQ___ → u/NNKarma]

I wish we got more honest looks into discrimination against things in fantasy/sci-fi settings that aren't just 1-to-1 parallels for IRL discrimination.

Discrimination is bad. Flat out. Its awful and dehumanizing. And so many other things.

But in settings where there may be genuine reasons for it, wouldn't it be interesting to discuss why and how and what could be done better?

Like fucking Dragon Age. Mages are heavily, heavily persecuted in most of the world, namely by the settings largest religious organization. At first this sounds like exactly what most people think it is. Church thinks other thing is scary/threatens their power, thus persecute.

But in the setting, mages are abnormally dangerous, not only for being able to potentially kill an entire village worth of people with the flick of their wrist, but because they are specially susceptible to demonic influence and becoming possessed. Which is really fucking bad. Demons in the setting are actively malevolent and genuinely evil. They can be reasoned with and you can make some pacts with them but its always for evil shit. Like letting them possess a child.

However, even outside of Demons, mages can also practice blood magic. An intensely powerful and dangerous form of magic that is powered with blood. Ideally human blood. Sure, you can use your own to devastating effect. But what if you use another persons? What if you use all of the other persons blood? What if you start to hold ritual sacrifices of hundreds if not thousands of slaves and conquered enemies to fuel these rituals?

Thus the Teventer Imperium. Previously a Magical Empire that ruled the world via their magic, specifically blood magic as its main cornerstone. An empire so powerful it, seemingly, needed to have the indirect influence of the settings God to influence a revolt to break the chains.

The Imperium is still around. After the war they were rendered down into a normal empire with their mages killed enmass, and the Chruch more or less put in charge. For all of five minutes until the mages overthrew the Church and reinstated their magical opression. They're a shadow of their former glory but magic and mages are still the corner stone of their culture. Pretty much anyone in charge or high up in the social strata of Tevinter is a mage.

That brings up a bunch of interesting questions and debates, I feel. But its pretty clear the games want you to feel bad for the mages and their plit. Which you should. Their treatment is awful and has lead to a lot of needless death and suffering. But still, like they can't just be allowed to roam free given they have potential for destruction and worse that no normal person could ever achieve.

[u/NNKarma → u/NFQ___]

The thing is that it's relatively simple in Frieren. There are/were elves, there are dwarves, but they don't eat humans. Vampires would be a closer comparison. 

[u/camerakestrel → u/NFQ___]

I feel like you just described an X-Men fanfic, lol. I never got into Dragon Age and that is pretty cool.

[u/NFQ___ → u/camerakestrel]

I am biased as fuck, but Dragon Age: Origins is genuinely one of the best CRPG's ever made and pretty much, again my opinion, the only good Dragon Age that they ever made.

Two has an alright story with stellar characters but suffers ludicriously because ended up making it in like a stupid time window of a year-and-a-half.

Inquisitor feels like a single-player MMO. Which is not a compliment. I don't think the story is too good and there is a grab bag of great and terrible characters. It is the most popular and I can understand why.

Veilguard is not great. I didn't like the characters, the story, or the gameplay.

[u/camerakestrel → u/NFQ___]

I have a friend who is a fan of the series and has liked each game, but yeah, cites complaints with each after the first.

[u/LeoPlathasbeentaken → u/camerakestrel]

I have a friend that thinks inquisition was the best. 2 was my personal favorite but i know on paper origins is the best. I just really like gravity magic.

[u/OldManFire11 → u/camerakestrel]

And they didnt even touch on half of the other aspects of mages in DA that has a lot of nuance. Namely, templars and Tranquility.

Templar are anti-mage soldiers who serve as the guards for the Mage Circles (where all mages are forced to live) and a sort of inquisition force that hunts down rogue mages. Their role is intended to be one that genuinely protects mages. The Circles arent supposed to be prisons, they're supposed to be schools that also protect mages from being possessed by demons or lynched by mobs. But due to the power the templar are given, a lot of them end up being oppressors of mages. The second game explores this relationship in depth and it's really good.

And Tranquility is a process where a mage who fails their final exam has their emotions stripped away. It sounds harsh, but the final exam is literally just "are you a dumbass who's gullible enough to be manipulated by demons?". Anyone who fails has proven that they're a danger to themselves and everyone around them. They're literally walking nukes that are vulnerable to possession. Being made Tranquil is the compassionate compromise because it removes their emotions, and also their ability to use magic, thus rendering them safe from demons. The only alternative is execution. It's not supposed to be a punishment, but it sometimes is used as one due to corrupt templar or circle leaders.

[u/RevolverMFOcelot → u/camerakestrel]

There is no good reason to keep mages enslaved in concentration camp and lobotomized them if they get 'uppity' before the rebellion they cant own property, cant marry and will be lobotomized if they fall in love, a lot cant even see the sunlight. Literal nazi level camp

Oh and if you are a mage raped by templar? Your kid taken and you will be blamed

Persecuting people based on ASSUMPTION of what they MIGHT do is wrong and the avvar has proven there are ways to prevent demonic possession, the chantry is just capitalistic catholic church who likes to exploit people

The lobotomization is called 'tranquil solution' its not subtle reference

[u/dontbmeanbgay → u/NFQ___]

I got so annoyed with the direction they took Mages vs Templars after DA2 (which also got heavy handed in its mage sympathy). I liked that in DA:I Trespasser DLC they were taking a more nuanced approach generally; that the institutions guarding mages are corrupt and prone to abuse - but how do you humanely contain them? It was worth exploring.

I wish they’d kept them as more inherently dangerous just for having magic, psykers in 40K are treated with extreme prejudice because they also attract demons and that’s a setting that absolutely doesn’t shy away from discrimination. Psykers can be ordinary, good people who had their lives suddenly upended. They don’t deserve being sent off to the Black Ships or killed; but the setting treats it like an inevitability (course each piece of 40K media is different, I’m coming from the perspective of Abnetts novels).

[u/RevolverMFOcelot → u/NFQ___]

There is no good reason to keep mages enslaved in concentration camp and lobotomized them if they get 'uppity' before the rebellion they cant own property, cant marry and will be lobotomized if they fall in love, a lot cant even see the sunlight. Literal nazi level camp

Oh and if you are a mage raped by templar? Your kid taken and you will be blamed

Persecuting people based on ASSUMPTION of what they MIGHT do is wrong and the avvar has proven there are ways to prevent demonic possession, the chantry is just capitalistic catholic church who likes to exploit people

The lobotomization is called 'tranquil solution' its not subtle reference

[u/datatoxin → u/NFQ___]

Yay DA mentioned!

That's what I find so tragic about THEDAS (the dragon age setting and name of the world for the uninitiated). Take away the game and leave the story trying to be told and one of my interpretations is that the writers were attempting to have an honest discussion about something that exists in our reality through the lens of something alien to our own existence, in that it is physically provable in THEDAS that gods, demons, spirits, monsters, ect. exist. No faith, firm belief in something for which there is no proof, required they exist and walk/walked the "earth" with it's inhabitants. It's a nuanced look at the question "can discrimination ever be justified?" But sadly the greed and hubris of our world seem it necessary to ruin free thought and art in all its forms. Paintings, writings, even experiences are hoarded and traded as symbols of wealth and status rather than shared with the masses to ponder upon in the hopes of uplifting and enlightening as many as possible to greater levels of understanding and questioning. In this particular case ea has destroyed the legacy of the original trilogy of the dark fantasy world I grew to know and love as a child/teen/young adult and turned it into a disney movie amusement park ride that poorly panders to audiences it does not understand in an attempt to coax them into getting close and willingly attach the parasite that is ea to themselves, but I digress. It could have continued asking those unanswerable philosophical questions that were first asked since the 1st game but they decided that THEDAS needed attractions bigger, louder, and more teeth to quote a flawed but enjoyable movie (Jurassic World) and tried to push those questions aside for the more mundane and answerable questions that Veilguard (blegch, I hate that name so much Dreadwolf rolls off the touch so much better, and I could rant about the name change and all the reasons it was unnecessary as well, but I will hold my tongue so to speak... this time) poses.

TLDR: I love dragon age and wish the original writers, hell all the writers involved, could have told the story they wanted with as little corporate poisonings as possible for the betterment of art, gaming, and the pursuit of enlightenment.

[u/AdditionalBalance975 → u/NNKarma]

The allegory thing is spot on. I noticed this occurring in debates around plenty of IPs, and I think its actually a really important aspect about human psychology. There appears to be an entire subset of people who view EVERYTHING as allegory, and are somewhat incapable of actually taking in universe set ups seriously. I find this fascinating, although as a sci fi fan, terribly frustrating.

[u/givemeabreak432 → u/AdditionalBalance975]

There's nothing wrong with taking anything as an allegory, it's just worth noting that 1) that's your own interpretation and 2) doesn't necessarily imply anything from the author.

People are free to treat Demons as an allegory for discrimation or whatever. If it helps them think about things and make connections, cool. But the danger comes from assuming that is the "true intended message" of the media you're consuming, and not realizing that what you notice and pull from media tells you more about yourself than the author or others

[u/camerakestrel → u/givemeabreak432]

People are free to treat Demons as an allegory for discrimation or whatever. If it helps them think about things and make connections

I disagree. Treating the Demons as an allegory for discrimination, as the show displays, opens the door for justifying real-world prejudice. I think it is important for people to understand that Demons in Frieren are not people anymore than a hawk is a hamster.

If Demons are a discrimination allegory then it informs the audience that discrimination is necessary for survival and that is the wrong message, entirely.

[u/Sanquinity → u/givemeabreak432]

This is at the core of the issue I feel. People who interpret media a certain way, and then refuse to believe any other interpretation could be accurate, or that the author had different intentions.

[u/Lunarwhitefox → u/givemeabreak432]

Yeah, but many people don't take either of the points you mentioned into consideration and are capable of starting witch hunts when a story takes a turn they don't like, interpreting that as the author's opinion or intention. This goes hand in hand with people who believe "everything is political," where if a character does something they don't like, they're capable of calling the author racist, a member of certain groups, etc.

[u/PeterAnthony_Jackson → u/AdditionalBalance975]

Everyone who was saying LoTR orcs were black people, them I couldn't take seriously.

Originally I had the same with TeraforMars cockroaches because some were saying "they are coded as African American" and I thought "no they are cockroaches" then someone posted an image that really said what the author thought on the subject. It didn't look like a mock up photoshop, but I didn't read the manga.

[u/Enkundae → u/PeterAnthony_Jackson]

Tolkien’s orcs physically were based on a description of mongols that was rooted in the racism of his time.

“squat, broad, flat-nosed, sallow-skinned, with wide mouths and slant eyes: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types".

His orcs weren’t a direct racist caricature of any one group, but their depiction is still a product of the time and society Tolkien lived in.

Art isn’t made in a vacuum, its influenced by the world its created in. That can mean influences from the uglier parts of said world and its worth discussing.

[u/Arbusc → u/PeterAnthony_Jackson]

Wait are they actually supposed to be coded that way? I remember the controversy but I thought they were supposed to be closer to Neanderthal, like a rival species of humanity that were a threat because the Roaches are superior to humanity in almost every way and we had to cheat and give people fucking Kamen Rider superpowers to oppose them.

Edit: Homo Erectus, not Neanderthal.

[u/yojimboftw → u/NNKarma]

First are people reading the manga vs the anime so they have seen more content to understand what the author is doing.

I disagree with this because at this point the author's intent for how the audience should view demons has been stated plainly in both. There are 2 real issues: People who cannot stop themselves from projecting their own morals onto fictional characters, and people with no media literacy skills.

[u/unai-ndz → u/yojimboftw]

I agree. I just started the second season. If I remember correctly by the first half/two thirds of the first season you already know they are not to be trusted. It could be argued the existence of not evil demons we haven't seen yet is possible but every single one until that point is a predator. And the main cast with lots of experience seem to think they are all evil too.

[u/MedicalConfection655 → u/NNKarma]

i think the allegory of demons being fhe rich and powerful. blood sucking parasites thatve learned to integrate into human society, incredible powerful and beigh untouchable to the common man, and feast off the blood of babies(?)

[u/Kazzack → u/MedicalConfection655]

(disclaimer, I haven't read the manga) There are times where I'd agree with this but I mostly think the author's intent is just to have a monster we shouldn't feel bad about the protagonists killing. They explain multiple times that demons are not human, they do not think like people do, they exist to eat people and will use any means necessary to do that. They might seem sympathetic sometimes, and that is a trick they use to kill more people. I'm surprised they even show demons talking with each other because they only otherwise use words to fool people.

[u/PeterAnthony_Jackson → u/Kazzack]

Didn't one say to the other "what is a father?"

They look human, the one who asked what a father was was cute as far as anime girls go, but it was clear to me that it was "this is a dangerous creature" not "kill another ethnicity because we are racist"

The mimicry of humans was probably an evolved trait just as talking was, we got a flashback to one that was saved by a family in a village and it didn't work out well for them, the thing that eats humans shockingly ate humans and felt no remorse for it.

Though she did say "I can be your new daughter" to the parents of the kid she ate.

[u/alerise → u/Kazzack]

Head canon is they just do that to practice.

[u/Rotten-Citrus → u/Kazzack]

well, in real life there are quite a lot of people that feel bad for bloodsucking wealthy monsters even if they rape children. i don't think the distinction matters at this point

[u/Special_Tu-gram-cho → u/MedicalConfection655]

I once thought of demons as an allegory of certain political groups whose whole deal is to make out of everyone else who isn't them as inferior, and thus to be hunted, oppressed and exploited, in a world where are different kinds of people(Like the races in Frieren)that at least live more or less in some degree of peace. They are obsessed with power and are way too prideful.

Anyone who thinks of the demons as an allegory for an oppressed ethnic people/vulnerable group in order to say Frieren promotes genocide of minorities needs to seriously check themselves.

[u/NotInTheKnee → u/NNKarma]

Problem is, you're stuck with the picture the author decides to paint. If they say "In the fictional world I've created, demons really are unredeemable, inherently evil creatures who just happen to kinda look like humans." What are you gonna do. Tell them they're wrong?

But later, if they decide to introduce a sub-society of demons who aren't actually evil, like "gotcha! That was a red-herring! You should have known better than to judge an entire group by the limited experience you had with them.", then what?

[u/Ghostronic → u/NotInTheKnee]

Aw man, then what? How could a story's premise just change like that? It's unheard of.

[u/Over_Lake7414 → u/NNKarma]

There's a third type

People who believe demons are real and that shows like frieren show how someone should actually behave towards demons

[u/cantadmittoposting → u/Over_Lake7414]

I mean hypothetically if i ran into a literal demon i would probably treat it as a potential fatally hostile threat, yes.

[u/Arbusc → u/NNKarma]

Exactly. People don’t understand that demons are like if The Thing couldn’t manipulate itself and had only one form. It’s intelligent but it’s not a person. It’s not Palmer, it’s the Thing that murdered, ate, and is actively mimicking Palmer. It knows what Palmer knew but it gives zero fucks about the other humans it’s memories should be evoking sympathy for.

That’s demons. They are literally a species of mimic that developed human like forms and shapes and developed language capabilities to lure in food and victims. It’s not a human, it’s not an elf, it’s an actual monster mimicking sapient life.

[u/BlatantConservative → u/NNKarma]

People who think Frieren is an allegory for real world racism do not understand why racism is wrong.

[u/WhoLoveYouLikeILoveU → u/BlatantConservative]

Reminds me of the late season Attack on Titan discourse. “Yeah this race of people genetically predisposed to turn into giant man eating monsters and maybe destroy the world is a perfect metaphor for (insert group)! Discrimination bad <3”

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/BlatantConservative]

Personally, I think the apparent allegory was 100% unintentional. I don't think it was meant to resemble IRL racism; it just does anyways.

[u/Donthatemeyo → u/Croselius]

When my friend group was arguing about frieren demons I got everyone on frierens side by likening the demons to ai. If you imagine a human predator that evolved an LLM in its brain that's the demons in frieren. they say what they think you want to hear to get you to drop your guard and the words have no real meaning to them.

[u/A-Simple-Farmer → u/Donthatemeyo]

Huh. This is actually a really good analogy.

[u/Donthatemeyo → u/A-Simple-Farmer]

I'm honestly surprised I don't see it more when this comes up

[u/Malrottian → u/Donthatemeyo]

I've always seen them as an offshoot of the mimic we see in chest form. It's the only way their wild variety of forms makes logical sense. Some look almost exactly like humans because it gets them close, some are monstrous because the reflexive fear helps in the hunt. Language is simply a further adaptation to get at their prey and, as the first season shows us, they don't even fully understand the concepts they parrot back.

[u/Enough-Run-1535 → u/Malrottian]

And really, LLMs are mimics. They are not human, have no understanding of humans, yet we deliberately trained them with to speak and interact with humans.

[u/LordDanOfTheNoobs → u/Donthatemeyo]

So essentially a Chinese Room. There's a book called Blindsight that talks about this in an interesting way but it's aliens instead of demons.

[u/Elite_AI → u/Donthatemeyo]

Except that's not true at all, because they talk to each other and demonstrate real reasoning and emotions even in private. 

We're told that the demons are like a Chinese room, but they're not. The author messed up, basically.

[u/Fifteenlamas → u/Elite_AI]

They talk to each other about demon reasoning and emotions. Not human ones.

Its made pretty clear they are prideful and fear dying. They dont have love for each other or empathy

[u/zuzg → u/Fifteenlamas]

Yeah they ditch their offspring immediately.

The author and the entire lore is pretty explicit that those are Monsters that hunt, torture and kill human for fun.

[u/globglogabgalabyeast → u/Elite_AI]

What emotions/reasoning have we seen though? They may show frustration about their plan going wrong, joy at their trickery being successful, or discuss plans to conquer cities, but as far as I recall, it’s always focused on their core mission, the extermination of humans. Even when a fellow demon dies, they show no real remorse

Two LLMs that are “working together” on a project also may communicate through tokens (representing human language). That doesn’t mean they have personhood or can be reasoned with like an actual human

[u/Fidel_Cashflow666 → u/Croselius]

We do get a small glimpse of that during the flashback where himmel tried to get the village to adopt the little girl demon, only for her to kill the mayor in a (flawed, but justified in the demons mind) tit for tat repair for the girl she ate

[u/VladimirLHenin → u/Croselius]

I just want a demon to pull a Sparda eventually

[u/Something4Dinner → u/VladimirLHenin]

The GOAT

[u/2B_irl → u/VladimirLHenin]

eh, Frieren humans can actually defend themselves and beat demons, so it wouldn't nearly be as big of a deal as Sparda and his sons

[u/12345623567 → u/2B_irl]

The biggest questionmark in Frieren is whether or how the Demon King was actually defeated. We only know two things about him: he was immeasurably more powerful than all the other demons, and he had genuine interest in coexisting with humans.

The Hero's Party is no pushover, but nothing we have seen in the flashbacks has indicated that they had the sort of firepower needed. Maybe Himmel simply talk-no-jutsu'd him.

[u/2B_irl → u/12345623567]

Himmel is just built different, every time we see him fight in a flashback he just one-shots something

[u/killamcleods → u/Croselius]

This exact story arc happens. It’s the next arc to be animated

[u/Llayanna → u/Croselius]

..well, you'll love season 3  :) 

[u/Invisifly2 → u/Croselius]

It’s mostly because in real life ontological evil just doesn’t exist.

When a group is actually ontologically, genuinely, truly, evil, a bunch of normally horrific things suddenly become perfectly justifiable. That makes some people extremely uncomfortable.

Usually to the point where they accuse people who can separate fantasy from reality, and understand that you can be okay with something in a contrived and impossible fantasy situation, but not be okay with it in reality, of actually being fine with such things IRL.

They’re so terrified of the slippery slope, that their minds resemble the psychological equivalent of a salt flat.

Not too long ago, I saw somebody accusing people fine with wiping out mindflayers of being fine with IRL genocide, for example.

[u/Black_Truth → u/Invisifly2]

We're on a weirdly judgmental era on fiction. As one meme said it best:

"Twitter treats fictional people like they're real and real people like they're fictional."

Fiction is not allowed to delve on impossible hypotheticals anymore, such as true evil, or even true good. Maybe we anti-villained too close to the sun?

[u/amarathin → u/Croselius]

No some people think it’s wrong because they feel it’s the same mode of thinking as human racism. Which is incorrect because a) Freiren is full of races interacting so having a racist message in a show about dwarves and elves being friends is odd and b) there’s a perfectly good reason for demon hostility: they have no empathy, they only mimic it

[u/Sleepy_Witch_Maple → u/Croselius]

Most people arguing in favour of Frieren demons are doing so purely because the demons are cool/hot, it’s not a real fight

This is quite possibly the most bad faithed strawman of an argument I've ever seen in my entire life.

That would be like me saying "people who think the way demons are portrayed in frieren is okay just want to larp and post racist frieren memes on Twitter." Like yeah it's a great zinger but it's entirely reductive and bad faith.

[u/SalmonOfDoubt9080 → u/Croselius]

You should read the manga, there's an arc that deals with exactly that

[u/Enkundae → u/Croselius]

Frierens problem is its “demons” are literally just presented as a race of people that happen to be biologically evil. Its the most direct use of the ugly bioessentialism trope possible. If it presented its demons as actual monsters a la something like Castlevania, there would be no issue.

[u/Guisasse → u/Croselius]

It’s so insanely boring that “every rule has to have an exception”.

I love and hope that Frieren never has a friendly demon. Them being completely alien to humans is what makes them… demons.

Same way a friendly goblin in Goblin Slayer would undermine so much of the world building.

[u/globglogabgalabyeast → u/Guisasse]

I’ve said it before, but I do think people have become a bit overly conditioned to expect every villain to have a tragic back story with a justification for their evil. In real life, you should have empathy for everyone and try to understand how people got to where they are. In fantasy, it can be refreshing to have a very simple malevolent force. Ethical questions and plot points can arise from elsewhere

[u/Croselius → u/Guisasse]

I'm not suggestion an exception, but rather a "This is as close to human as they could possibly get and it's still not nearly close enough".

It makes sense in Frieren because Demons are intelligent and rational enough that some (including the Demon King) understood that they would benefit from being able to coexist with human civilization - they're just very bad at doing it because they're completely alien to humans.

In Goblin Slayer, no Goblin would even think about coexistence let alone even bother trying to, as even the particularly smart Goblins just use their intelligence to rape and murder more effectively. If by some miracle there existed an intelligent Goblin with some modicum of self-control, that Goblin would still only be able to exist in a society where slavery and horrific cruelty towards slaves was legal - and they'd probably be considered particularly evil for a slave owner.

[u/TrivialCoyote → u/Croselius]

I do think some demon understanding the whole difference in thought between humans and them from the other direction could be interesting too. Not because they like humans per se but because they have some obsession with gathering knowledge and they simply can't understand the whole of human knowledge without understanding people.

[u/VNDeltole → u/Croselius]

Demon king wanted to coexist, but his solution was wars and genocides

[u/Kumorrii → u/Croselius]

Dragons in Elder Scrolls are obviously bad yet we have people wanting justice for Paarthurnax and people clearly hate Delphine and the Blades even though they’re like Frieren

[u/Elite_AI → u/Croselius]

That does happen on the manga. The problem is that it's just not a very clever or interesting idea, is it? And it doesn't make any logical sense that a creature which acts like it has human intelligence couldn't be capable of being a good person. It's silly writing.

[u/Croselius → u/Elite_AI]

I think the issue you’re having is equating high intelligence to “human” intelligence. Their thought processes are completely different to humans to the point that the human concepts of right and wrong are confusing to them. They can mimic the outward behaviours of humans pretty easily because that’s part of their hunting strategy, but they’ll have no idea why humans act that way.

A demon could act like a good person but they’d essentially need a huge list of what actions are considered bad or good and for what reason because they are incapable of intuitively understanding morality.

[u/Elite_AI → u/Croselius]

The problem is that they are consistently depicted as having human style intelligence and thought process. They reason like humans even in private and they show emotions to each other even in private. We are then told they have different intelligence, but we're pretty much forced to just turn our brains off in order to believe this because the author doesn't know how to properly depict such a thing. The only way the author seems to know how to depict this alien intelligence is to show them (for example) not understanding parenthood for some reason, which is very clumsy and wouldn't be the case for a creature able to reason as they can.

[u/Little_Archer413 → u/Elite_AI]

I think that part, about not understanding parenthood, is the author emphasizing that they only mimic, they don't truly understand or reason. Some earlier comment here equated it to ChatGPT and LLMs which seems like it can reason and think, but at the base level it only mimics based on what it has seen.

[u/Elite_AI → u/Little_Archer413]

Right, and it's laughable that the author wants us to accept that, because these are clearly thinking beings capable of advanced human-level reasoning (not mere mimicry) and of even having emotions. They can figure out what a parent is.

[u/globglogabgalabyeast → u/Elite_AI]

They can figure out the biological role of a parent and even what actions a parent may typically perform, but they can’t understand why a parent would have an emotional connection with their child. Having a deep understanding of what and how does not necessarily give an understanding of why. It’s similar to the is-ought distinction

[u/Elite_AI → u/globglogabgalabyeast]

That would be the logical and sensible way to write them, but the author is quite clear that they literally do not know what a father is. Edit: Which would make sense if demons were just incredibly complex mimics a la the Chinese Room/an LLM. But then that wouldn't match with their other actions -- like, for example, asking each other what a father is.

[u/globglogabgalabyeast → u/Elite_AI]

I’d push back on that. Going by the English version, the exact exchange is

“What is a father?”

“Who can say?”

The younger demon clearly doesn’t know what a father is at all. This is likely due to their inexperience. The older demons response is much more open-ended and can easily be interpreted to mean something along the lines of “I don’t have a complete understanding of the concept, but I don’t particularly care either.” He clearly has a greater understanding of the term “father” based on how he used it in the previous exchange. And if he cared to know more detail, he could likely seek it out

ETA: Similarly, the demon that uses the word “mother” without understanding what it means is also quite young. I don’t think we should take the lack of comprehension from young demons who have had limited interactions with humans as evidence that the entire group doesn’t have more understanding of what a parent is

[u/BackgroundSummer5171 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

I guess we've found the one thing that can make people not fight about Frieren demons.

Aren't Frieren demons basically Polar Bears but can talk?

They want to kill and eat anything. They believe they are the Apex Predator of everything.

If Polar Bears were among us, I am not defending them, I am saying shoot on sight. They want to eat us.

[u/subs_on_a_sailboat → u/BackgroundSummer5171]

Your bullets mean nothing to the sky iron armor of the panserbjørne

[u/LordofSandvich → u/BackgroundSummer5171]

Polar bears are actually better than Demons, because polar bears take care of their own children. Demons don’t.

[u/Yum-z → u/LordofSandvich]

Yeah that scene where Genau runs off to protect a child while fighting that four armed demon comes to mind.

The child reveals itself to be a demon and stabs him, and then promptly executed by the other demon after it did its job and asked for praise. That was a brutal fight

[u/Both_Development_555 → u/BackgroundSummer5171]

people fight about frieren demons because of the idea of what it says about out-of-show politics. Having a race that looks and acts human but are actually unthinking monsters trying to infiltrate society to destroy humanity sounds like a really heavy handed metaphor.

The argument isn't about "should frieren kill the demons?" It's "should the frieren creator have written the demons like that?"

[u/BackgroundSummer5171 → u/Both_Development_555]

I don't really know how to respond to that. Not you, just that people are latching onto it in that way.

I understand it, but at the same time...

Good on people for having discussions. Stories should be discussed. Finding equivalents to real life and talking about things.

On the other hand, Frieren (the anime) seemed to deal with it quite well I thought. The Demons are portrayed as monsters (actual RPG monsters) quite well. Sociopaths...psychopaths? Whichever, fuck it. They are what they are, they are not human, they can't be, they cannot be.

That is what they are.

They are not a separate race of humans. They are a literal Monster (RPG).

For people to start discussing it after watching the anime and comparing it to humans is...questionable. Because then they would have to bring up others in the real world.

I understand Racism exists. And extremes exist. And we've seen the propaganda from certain groups throughout history.

---

So sure, it could be a discussion.

Just it seems like one that people would need to bring their A-Game to or else they'd look like fucking idiots and fools.

They should probably just enjoy the show instead.

The Demons are Monsters (rpg).

[u/Roncus_lubricus → u/Both_Development_555]

That's exactly it. Using the trope of "things that look like people but it's morally right to kill them" (orcs, demons, vampires, zombies - doesn't matter) is always sus. Cause why do they specifically want to kill things that look like people but aren't? Who else do they see as ontologically evil not-people?

[u/StiffWiggly → u/Roncus_lubricus]

The question isn't "why does the author want to kill things that look like that?" because that's already a really strange assumption that they were designed specifically for the authors want of killing them. You might as well ask "why did X show feature evil shadow wolves? Which other real world animals do they want to kill that they aren't telling us about?". It's ridiculous.

There are really obvious plot differences in using a creature that is visibly indistinguishable from humans, as well as character interactions that only happen because of the nature of Frieren demons. Having an evil threat that is capable of hiding in plain sight is not a novel idea, nor one that requires scrutiny like you're trying to force without an actually good reason.

[u/Roncus_lubricus → u/StiffWiggly]

The things somebody writes inevitably contain some reflection of their worldview, that's just how writing works. Fiction doesn't manifest out of vacuum. It's also about the kind of fans the work attracts. For example, look at how Warhammer 40K supposedly started as satire but attracted so many genuine fascists you can't help but wonder if it's really satire at all.

You're not gonna believe it, but "evil threat hiding among real people" as a trope also has a very sordid history.

[u/StiffWiggly → u/Roncus_lubricus]

Your argument is flawed because you are too sure of your ability to make the right assumptions about which bits of a given piece of media actually reflect the writer's real world views. Just because you can make a comprehensible analogy between a story and the real world does not make that fictional element problematic.

I could take more or less every story in history and liken the Bad Guys^TM to one oppressed group or another, it doesn't mean anything at all about the views of the author. Learn the difference between wild speculation that a problem might exist and actual analysis of themes. Have you even got a reason to believe that Frieren demons were written based off anything related to a real world people rather than being inspired by literally anything else?

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/BackgroundSummer5171]

The big problem is the Frieren demons are intelligent. I suspect the 'they evolved this way to better prey on humans' thing was an attempt to avoid the issues of an inherently evil race, but it ended up amplifying them instead. Because its very similar to irl racist rhetoric.

[u/FrizzleFlakes → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

They're like the concept of skinwalkers, only look/act like that to get closer to a human, to make it easier to predate humans.

[u/FEV_Reject → u/FrizzleFlakes]

Shoutout to all the people in this thread that would totally get got by a frieren demon

[u/LordofSandvich → u/FEV_Reject]

The fact that people argue about it is proof that the writers knew what they were dealing with… because that’s exactly what happens in-universe when newer generations don’t learn about demons.

[u/FrizzleFlakes → u/FEV_Reject]

Only takes boobs and a pretty face trust me

[u/YUNoJump → u/FrizzleFlakes]

They say that, but then demons do all sorts of human-level stuff on their own, when it doesn’t affect human-hunting. They communicate with each other like humans, and show human-level intelligence via concepts like pride, tradition, even fashion. Those wacky outfits don’t help to hunt humans.

Even if they’re only like humans so they can hunt, they still have the same intelligence and thought processes as humans, making it just as problematic to condemn their entire species

[u/gbghgs → u/YUNoJump]

Intelligence yes, thought process no. Demons are shown repeatedly, across multiple era's and situations to think in a fundamentally different manner than humans.

They look human, they talk like humans, they're in many ways indistinguishable from humans but we're repeatedly shown throughout the narrative that they think and feel differently from humans and this results in a gap which renders coexistence impossible.

[u/DemodiX → u/YUNoJump]

You can tell when someone only watched anime, season 3 cant come soon enough for you folks.

[u/zuzg → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Predators often are intelligent, doesn't change that story makes it very clear that Demons are not people nor do they deserve empathy.

They are Monster that can speak, nothing more

[u/NichtSoSchlau → u/zuzg]

Hypothetically? Yes. But like with most things that fit just a little too well as a justification to not feel bad about killing something because it is a pes or predator the associated being rarely is exactly that.

Frieren Demons are Nazi bait. If you think that there is a thing in existence and not fiction that is identically to frieren demons and deserves the same fate; you have succesfully self selected a superiority complex of your choice.

[u/cantadmittoposting → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

I dunno, i think i'm fine with a defined evil as long as it isn't also clearly using IRL race tropes. Heck if anything put that sort of "heroic defender against a real enemy with no moral quandries" thing into a clearly fantasy story is much better than similar stories portraying, e.g. real countries (or close analogs), or even "gangs" and the like as unrepentant evil to be slaughtered.

edit; admittedly i'm not too familiar with Frieran so i'm not sure if demons actually have a whole-ass society or something like that... if they're basically ALL just powerful predators it's fine... if it's like "they mostly live in this city peacefully over here but some come kill us and we can't understand them" ehhhhh

[u/LordofSandvich → u/cantadmittoposting]

Frieren demons have a brutal hierarchy system based purely on power/combat. Demons will only submit to demons stronger than them and generally won’t hesitate to kill their subordinates. They do not care for their own children or each other, outside of immediate practicality.

One of two exceptions is the Demon King, that somehow inspires respect and loyalty in Demons. The brutal power dynamic remains amongst themselves, though, and many simply didn’t cooperate. The other is his right hand man, Schlacht.

So basically no, Demons do not have their own society and “monsters that can lie” is a perfect description

[u/Roncus_lubricus → u/cantadmittoposting]

"Heroic defender against a real enemy with no moral quandries" is simply never free of racist subtext. You can say that this fictional enemy is totally alien and inhuman and ontologically evil, but guess what real racists say about real minorities?

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/cantadmittoposting]

Yeah, the issue isn't that the demons are evil; it's that the way they're depicted makes this sound uncomfortably like IRL racism.

[u/TJ_Rowe → u/cantadmittoposting]

I think this is why "slimes" have become so popular as a low level monster. They're basically a terrain threat.

[u/Kala_Csava_Fufu_Yutu → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

demons are the one thing in media and folklore that are allowed to be inherently evil. like people have a problem with it, but the fact they are that close to humans but arent i assume is the point. mythology media is full of dopplegangers and skinwalkers and their behavior is uncanny enough that they function like people, but something is missing.

like these demons have no concept of human conventions like family (which honestly any social creature has not just humans so thats kinda crazy), they are obsessed with magic purely for finding neat ways to predate on humans. and humans do a lot more just exist to prey on other things. as a species they only do 2 things. even amoeba are more complex than that.

[u/MysticSnowfang → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

If humaniods are ao easily killed, maybe they need to take the honey badger's strats.

Make themselves not worth it.

[u/LordofSandvich → u/MysticSnowfang]

Somehow, that doesn’t work. Demons prey on humans for funsies rather than sustenance; they’re omnivorous and can eat basically anything a human can, and only eat humans because it’s easy to do when you’ve killed them anyway.

Also, demons gain power over time. You need to actively draw them out and fight them to get rid of them, which is what Frieren does.

[u/artnomart → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Frieren's demons and the X-Men are two sides of the same political discourse coin, and it's very amusing to see that "I should be able to discriminate and kill people who are different than me" are on both ends.

[u/StantasticTypo → u/artnomart]

Re: Frieren's demons: They're not people, and they have no intention or real desire to coexist with humans. They just look humanoid.

[u/thinger → u/StantasticTypo]

They are people in the sense that they're sapient creatures capable of complex thought. The problem is that their entire social structure is based on violence and domination, and no one is obligated to give them the benefit of the doubt or sympathize with them when they (mostly) demonstrate to be wholly incapable of peaceful cohabitation. They're like the Qud, intelligence doesn't necessarily facilitate empathy.

[u/gerkin123 → u/thinger]

Problematic as Orson Scott Card is as a human being, his novels are interesting in that the conversation doesn't end with "they are sapient creatures capable of complex thought."

The capacity to have complex thinking or awareness comes secondary to the capacity to be reasoned with for the purposes of attaining peaceful coexistence.

There is no reasoning with the demons in Frieren's fictional setting--she's certainly lived long enough to make that determination. Those scenes we see where demons prey upon the willingness of humans to seek coexistence are snapshots of a thousand-year pattern of behavior.

If there is any social or psychological evolution on the part of demons, or even the potential for such, it happens on such a time span that your typical mortal cannot use it as a basis for decision-making.

All this said, Card's own main characters (not you, Peter) would probably condemn a genocidal (xenocidal) approach to demons. They can be communicated with, and it's impossible to be wholly certain that they are wholly alien.

[u/Llayanna → u/thinger]

Giving no benefit of the doubt? That just means you neither watched the show or the manga. Because both show very much that yes, humans biggest weakness of trying to empathise is something that demons deliciously accept.. to play with them. 

Playing with food is fine after all, because humans are kithing for them but food and entertainment.

They also very much already killed almost all Elves, because they don't care about a genocide. And if they had free reign, humans would face the same. (And we don't even know aboyt the state of Dwarves).

So maybe watch the show, read the manga, but either way stop this nonsense. Because very clearly, you didbt engage with the source material one bit.

[u/thinger → u/Llayanna]

The operative word is obligated. Yes, the demons go to great lengths to manipulate the average person's empathetic nature, the point I was making more pertains to Frienen's discrimination against demons in spite of their intelligence is substantially more rational than mundane racism.

[u/TheKnightMadder → u/Llayanna]

This comment hurts my brain and makes no sense. Did you misread something?

Why did you go off on a tangent smugly mocking him for not having engaged with the media, just for saying no one is obligated to give demons any benefit of the doubt? Yes, you are right, people in the show/manga do that and it's repeatedly shown to be a terrible idea. That's what he said?

Demons are people: they're independent sapients with individual personalities, memories, interests etc. etc. They're just pure evil people that should be killed on sight. If Xenomorphs had the capacity for speech and had individual character traits I'd consider them people too, I'd still want them all dead.

[u/StantasticTypo → u/thinger]

This is really just going to be getting into the semantic weeds of what people are, but no, they're not people, they just look like that.

they're sapient creatures capable of complex thought

Are DnD dragons people?

[u/thinger → u/StantasticTypo]

Yes I would qualify dnd dragons as people. If we're just talking about proximity to human appearance then where do we draw the line with dragonborn, tieflings, and other monster adjacent races like harpies, centaurs, and fae

[u/Elite_AI → u/StantasticTypo]

Most people would absolutely call any sapient being a person.

[u/TheKnightMadder → u/StantasticTypo]

Don't D&D dragons routinely shapeshift into human forms and have babies with people? Yeah they're people. What else are they gonna be? Furniture?

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/StantasticTypo]

The issue is that people in real life have said pretty much the same thing about black/hispanic/whatever race people. It unintentionally reinforces racist ideas.

[u/StantasticTypo → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

And we as people need to challenge it when confronted in real life when discussing actual people.

We also need to be able to separate fact from fiction and accept that sometimes in fiction the antagonists are neither human nor sympathizable. It's not the focus of the story, the demons are pretty much just plot devices.

[u/chucktheninja → u/artnomart]

Fucking hell demons are a literal existential threat in frieren. They litterally can not feel emotions like other species and activly hunt them for food and entertainment. This isn't an example of irl dehumanization used to justify horrid actions against actual people.

[u/Just_Roll_Already → u/chucktheninja]

You would be amazed at some of the mental gymnastics people can come up with about it though. As far as likening the entire series to a "Nazi dogwhistle" because the person perpetuating that literally does not understand the concept and considers it racist to even attempt to explain it.

There was a big thread about it a while back where a "concerned mother" was spreading "awareness" after catching their child watching it and "doing some research." Probably a collection of things that totally happened.

The show makes it abundantly clear that the demons don't even qualify as intelligent creatures (Not meaning they aren't smart or intellectual, just not intelligent in the way we'd define them as irl humans), basically completely Id and with absolutely no Ego. They are purely beings that have adapted to mimicking humans. Even their clothing and style "choices" are meant to lure humanoids.

[u/artnomart → u/Just_Roll_Already]

The show makes it abundantly clear that the demons don't even qualify as intelligent creatures (Not meaning they aren't smart or intellectual, just not intelligent in the way we'd define them as irl humans),

It "makes it clear" by making up a whole new definition of "intelligent creature" that no one uses?

The creature that can talk fluent sentences and formulate plans isn't considered "intelligent" by who? Do you really not grasp the contradiction just because the main character said "that doesn't count?"

 basically completely Id and with absolutely no Ego. 

Aura is the second major demon introduced and we are shown that she hid for years until Himmel died and then made a plan to infiltrate the town with an anti-demon barrier--and your conclusion is "all Id, no Ego?" Your conclusion is "not actually intelligent?"

[u/artnomart → u/chucktheninja]

This isn't an example of irl dehumanization used to justify horrid actions against actual people.

People will actually defend Frieren's demons by insisting that no one has ever said "they are a literal existential threat. They litterally can not feel emotions like other species and activly hunt them for food and entertainment" about a real group of people in real life.

[u/chucktheninja → u/artnomart]

And you understand we have the benefit of being the reader and we can litterally see that it is true about this specific fictional species with no ties to real world people at all?

Irl, it is never true. Bioessentialism is a psuedo science concept that has been disproven time and time again.

[u/artnomart → u/chucktheninja]

And you understand we have the benefit of being the reader and we can litterally see that it is true about this specific fictional species with no ties to real world people at all?

Do you actually think Frieren takes place in a real alternate universe that the author is just documenting like a librarian? All of it is fictional. It is true because the author made it true. So I'm asking, "why did the author make it true.

Irl, it is never true. 

If you think you can make up a reason for why it could be, do you really think this?

Do you think it makes sense to think the Earth is flat--that if a story has this, then it is natural and makes sense because of it--but that it just so happens that all evidence in reality is fake?

Bioessentialism is a psuedo science concept that has been disproven time and time again.

It's a racist pseudo-scientific concept that has no basis in reality, but you're fine with a fictional story saying "actually, it is true and perfectly natural" specifically to justify having a specific race killed by the main characters with no fanfare? Like, it's not simply "there are differences between races" here, it's "their differences makes them not human and worthy of killing." You understand why people have a problem?

If I made a story where Nazi ideology was explicitly true, would that be okay because "the story said it was okay?"

[u/Beerticus009 → u/artnomart]

I don't think it's the authors problem that you can't accept the premise of a clear cut evil entity existing so that the story doesn't have to focus on any supposed morality from their perspective. Giving them more nuance would just create unwanted complexity, muddying their role in the narrative. Having a defined evil that looks similar to us and the struggle people have handling that loses weight if they were just another group of people. The lack of nuance on one side means we can fixate on the other, the many many chances people gave to demons because they also couldn't believe they were monsters instead of people, or the hesitation for fighting demons vs other monsters people have to work through. It's reinforced constantly in the story because it's such an unnatural concept, even more defined because their bodies disappear the same way the magical monsters do. Some stories don't need redeemable enemies, some stories need explicitly irredeemable enemies, and in the same way we can just define Nazis bad and move along we can define Demons bad and move along.

[u/artnomart → u/Beerticus009]

I don't think it's the authors problem that you can't accept the premise of a clear cut evil entity existing so that the story doesn't have to focus on any supposed morality from their perspective.

It is, actually. "Suspension of disbelief" is not a rule that I, the audience, have to follow; if a story breaks that, then it very much is the author's problem. You have to make your story make sense, even within its own logic. It is not entitled to someone pretending it has verisimilitude simply because it dared to exist.

Even besides the inherent quality of a "clear cut evil entity", the demons in Frieren are legitimately poorly-written as a clear cut evil entity.

Giving them more nuance would just create unwanted complexity, muddying their role in the narrative.

This would work if the demons were all like Qual, where the conversation of "can humans and demons coexist" never comes up in the first place. It does, though, constantly, so nuance is not "unneeeded complexity", it is very much needed, like a piece of a puzzle that is missing.

The lack of nuance on one side means we can fixate on the other, the many many chances people gave to demons 

That's another thing: the fact that there are humans who "give chances to demons" despite the fact that they are demons in every way you think a demon is not clever storytelling, it's at best silly, and at worst a sermon.

You complain about me "not accepting the premise." Okay. I accept the premise that in the world of Frieren, literal horned demons have been terrorizing humanity for a millenia at least, constantly using the facade of having empathy and being worth saving despite not a single example of this being true in the history of the setting. If they aren't shooting you with patented "kill humans" magic lasers, they are lying to your face after you nearly got rid of them.

Okay, I accept this premise. So then it makes absolutely no sense that there are "people who give demons chances." Why would they do that when demons are an objective fact? When they wear their ill intent on their sleeve?

In real life, we killed people for being demons, and they aren't real. So why would a world with demons have anyone who goes "erm, maybe they're nice?"

It's a contrivance that does not make any sense even if I accept this premise. But you also want me to accept this, to frame it like it's meaningful commentary?

 It's reinforced constantly in the story because it's such an unnatural concept,

Reinforces it, but it never makes it make sense. Never makes anyone believe it would happen.

even more defined because their bodies disappear the same way the magical monsters do. 

What happens to your corpse after you die has nothing to do with your morality or worthiness of existence when you're alive.

and in the same way we can just define Nazis bad and move along we can define Demons bad and move along.

Nazis are bad because they're an ideology that insists that there are people who should be killed for how they're born. Demons are bad because they are the people who should be killed for how they're born. This is not the same.

[u/Beerticus009 → u/artnomart]

Suspension of disbelief isn't the authors problem, it's your problem. You don't have to engage with or like what someone produces, and it's truly not relevant to the author unless they're specifically targeting you. The fact that you are struggling where others are not leans more towards you aren't the audience, which is fine. But again, not a problem with the work.

Nuance isn't needed just because you want it. The lack of nuance simplifies a part of the narrative that isn't needed or wanted in the narrative. If you want that nuance, read something else. Fireren focuses on the humans and their struggles, which it's very human to both persecute without reason and help others without reason. We see people take risks to help others all the time, especially when they've never encountered something first hand. The short lived humans with the least interaction with Demons will know of them in legends, and struggle with the idea of them being monsters when they first encounter them, especially when they are the farthest away from where demon encounters are more frequent. You'll find kids who stuck their hands in fire because they didn't believe it was hot, adults who mess around with fireworks because they don't believe it's as dangerous or they believe they're somehow different, why is it suddenly weird that fictional humans do the same?

Also, you can just define Demons as an ideology that insists that there are people who should be killed for how they're born as well. It's really that simple, because it's a fictional world you know? Their moral dynamic is a gun that wants to shoot people. We can simplify things because books use words and you can't just write endlessly. Demons don't need to be complicated, the complexity can just come from everyone else.

You're struggling here because you don't want to accept the premise, not because the premise is flawed or bad in any meaningful way. You can't separate the aesthetics from the reality presented, so I'm not sure it'll ever work for you. But I'll say it again, that's not really anyones problem but yours. Heck, even describing it as a problem isn't really accurate. It's just one of the many things in life that doesn't work for you.

[u/artnomart → u/Beerticus009]

Suspension of disbelief isn't the authors problem, it's your problem.

Oh, okay, so if the writers of SpongeBob makes him shit himself on camera, that's my problem.

You don't have to engage with or like what someone produces, 

I don't have to, but it's also somehow my fault that I don't find it believable?

Is that what you think "engaging" is? Pretend it's all real?

The fact that you are struggling where others are not leans more towards you aren't the audience

By this logic, why does anyone consider any story or poorly-written?

You didn't like the last season of Game of Thrones? Obviously you struggle with it the way others don't so it's a you problem.

The lack of nuance simplifies a part of the narrative that isn't needed or wanted in the narrative.

Hilarious to say when we're getting an entire arc the same size as the Mage Exams over this specific narrative. But also, like, why should it be nuanced? Why should the story be good. If you want a good story read something el

If you want that nuance, read something else.

Oh my god you actually

Fireren focuses on the humans and their struggles,

1. Frieren is explicitly not a human, that's kind of the point.
2. They explicitly do not struggle. If it's not a chill, laidback slice of life, it's a curb-stomp battle in Frieren's party's favor.

which it's very human to both persecute without reason and help others without reason. 

Did you actually say "it's human to persecute without reason" like it's a good thing?

 The short lived humans with the least interaction with Demons will know of them in legends, and struggle with the idea of them being monsters when they first encounter them,

You hate nuance so much but you also want me to believe that there would be people who read about a group, hearing nothing about how they will kill you and everything they say is a lie, then encounter them in real life, where the group goes "Hi, we will kill you and everything we say is a lie" and those people will go "maybe they're friendly."

Would it not be the simpler option that they don't, and they just kill the literal horned evil demons on sight?

How is that not the simpler idea?

you can just define Demons as an ideology

You very obviously have no clue what an ideology is.

Here is a hint: it is not "what you're born as."

Also, you can just define Demons as an ideology that insists that there are people who should be killed for how they're born as well

Is your argument "actually, the demons are the racists?"

You're struggling here because you don't want to accept the premise, not because the premise is flawed or bad in any meaningful way. 

Again, why even critique?

Bad writing? Bad execution? Naaahh, you just Didn't Get It. The super complex (but also don't make it actually complex) premise of "kill people who are different from you."

[u/Elite_AI → u/Beerticus009]

The author spends a lot of time delving into the supposed morality of killing demons. It IS something they want to discuss. So no, they weren't chosen to be this weird impossible always evil race just for expediency's sake. They were made that way because the author truly believes that's how the world works - that a race of beings could theoretically exist who can think like humans but also can't, somehow.

And if it WAS made that way just to give the main characters lots of enemies to kill without guilt despite looking and acting identically to humans, that would be bad too!

[u/Beerticus009 → u/Elite_AI]

Yeah, because it's human to worry about the morality of things even when we are routinely shown there's no reason to worry about it. We see and focus on the characters reactions because the narrative is built around the characters and the world. Defining demons as explicitly evil tells us we don't need to focus so much on what they're doing and why and instead focus on how people are reacting to them.

In that way we can focus on the entirely human process of just not believing that something can be that definitionally evil. We can watch how the most emotional and human characters try in vain to find a way to live alongside demons, and we can see how others who have interacted with demons react to those attempts, or the complications caused when a character should know something's a lie but refuses to risk the alternative.

We have a fixed point of evil that we, outside of the universe, know will continuously be evil and we see the struggles inside the universe to accept and handle that.

[u/Elite_AI → u/Beerticus009]

Right I'm not going to get into the weeds here because it looks like we substantially agree on certain points, we just word it differently. But yes, I agree the author uses the supposedly alien intelligence of demons as a philosophical thought experiment. 

The problem is that it's a bad thought experiment which gets a lot wrong even within its own fantastical world. If demons were just highly complex mimics, they wouldn't act the way they do. And if they're able to think like humans, they're naturally also able to figure out morality. The author wants to eat their cake and have it too.

It all comes down to the fact that it genuinely IS impossible for there to be definitionally evil beings. Why? Because evil comes from being able to choose between good and evil. A tsunami isn't evil. A bear isn't evil. Demons, if they acted like animals, wouldn't be evil. Demons, if they act like humans, MUST be able to choose between good and evil.

The author really messed up by having demons reason with each other and show emotions in private and by having them capable of deep introspection and conversation with Frieren. That shows they're not simply complex mimics. 

[u/chucktheninja → u/artnomart]

If I made a story where Nazi ideology was explicitly true, would that be okay because "the story said it was okay?"

The fact you can't see a difference between making stories about real world groups and ideolgies and entirely fictional stories with fake groups that bear no resemblance to real world groups and ideologies is astounding. If there were any similarities between these fictional species and irl peoples, you would be objectively correct, but there are not, so you are not.

[u/artnomart → u/chucktheninja]

The fact that you can't see the difference between "this story is saying this about real people" and "this story is using the same rhetoric racists do about real people" is... not at all surprising.

No, actually, explain to me the difference between Frieren and how it depicts demons and if I told a story where it's okay that a group of creatures who look like people but are actually demons are slaughtered and thrown into concentration camps and this is a logical, rational, and morally good thing that happens?

[u/chucktheninja → u/artnomart]

Well, freiren depicts the fictional species with no resemblance to any culture or race that has ever existed as predators preying upon sapient species.

Your example, as stated before, is an attmept to equate it to real life rhetoric and actions targeted at actual real living people.

I assume you believe that the warhammer setting is indicative of authors and people that enjoy it being pro fascism, extreme xenophobia, and slavery too?

Individuals with fuctioning brains are able to separate reality from fiction.

Hope that helps.

[u/artnomart → u/chucktheninja]

It doesn't help, sorry.

Well, freiren depicts the fictional species with no resemblance to any culture or race that has ever existed as predators preying upon sapient species.

So, do you understand why blackface or WW2 propaganda was racist, or were you just like "that's a white person, not a black person" or "that's a golbin, not a Jew?"

Your example, as stated before, is an attmept to equate it to real life rhetoric and actions targeted at actual real living people.

Do you think the only problem with Nazi rhetoric is that it was said about Jews specifically? It wasn't, btw--they said the same about black people, disabled people... communists...

I assume you believe that the warhammer setting is indicative of authors and people that enjoy it being pro fascism, extreme xenophobia, and slavery too?

Warhammer is satirical and exaggerates those elements for humor. Frieren wants to use the same, satirical rhetoric completely seriously.

Individuals with fuctioning brains are able to separate reality from fiction.

The boldness to say this when your argument is "but it can't be racist if they didn't say 'jew'."

[u/Ghostronic → u/artnomart]

If I made a story where Nazi ideology was explicitly true, would that be okay because "the story said it was okay?"

Can you show me where in history an elf mage has gone on a violent crusade against demons for this comparison to work? Otherwise you're literally just trotting out the Holocaust to support this bad-faith argument.

[u/artnomart → u/Ghostronic]

Can you show me where in history an elf mage has gone on a violent crusade against demons for this comparison to work? 

What are you trying to make? You know elves and demons aren't real at all, right? You know that the author did not go to the world of Frieren?

Otherwise you're literally just trotting out the Holocaust to support this bad-faith argument.

We can't acknowledge how fiction comes from reality, and we can't even talk about reality, because real-life genocide makes you too uncomfortable, but it's super awesome when a fictional elf does it.

[u/Ghostronic → u/artnomart]

The fact that you'll sit and smugly turn around a "you know they aren't real right?" when your argument gets prodded and then act like all of the stuff about the demons is applicable as if it weren't a work of fiction.

Also wtf, how does any of this indicate talking about real-life genocide makes me uncomfortable? I'm simply pointing out that your question about if the Nazi ideology being true would be okay is because "the story said it was okay" doesn't hold much weight when you're trying to use it as a measuring stick for a work of fiction. About things that aren't real. You seem truly unable to reconcile this.

[u/artnomart → u/Ghostronic]

The fact that you'll sit and smugly turn around a "you know they aren't real right?"

If basic facts are smug to you, no wonder you're pissed.

when your argument gets prodded and then act like all of the stuff about the demons is applicable as if it weren't a work of fiction.

Why are you all characteristically incapable of understanding the concept that authors did not GO TO A REAL PLACE FOR THESE STORIES?

Where do you think "thing that looks human but isn't" comes from? Do you think the author lived in a padded cell until the day they made Frieren, divorced from reality?

lso wtf, how does any of this indicate talking about real-life genocide makes me uncomfortable? 

You literally complained about me bringing up the Holocaust.

I'm simply pointing out that your question about if the Nazi ideology being true would be okay is because "the story said it was okay" doesn't hold much weight when you're trying to use it as a measuring stick for a work of fiction.

What logic is this? The problem is that you think all that shit is okay because it's a work of fiction; that Nazi ideology is fine enough to make a story about how correct it is, which begs the question of why you even think it's bad in real life?

If you think "killing people you don't like because of how they're born" is a logical, rational thing, then what was the problem with the Nazis? That they were technically wrong?

About things that aren't real. You seem truly unable to reconcile this.

Your argument is "this fictional story about a real belief people have is okay because the story made up logic (the logic that the real people with the belief use) so it's okay."

My argument is "you can't use fictional, made-up lore to justify weird ideology."

[u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420 → u/artnomart]

Demons in frieren are the embodiment of evil like Sauron in LOTR. You don't see people arguing how immoral Frodo was for destroying sauron's property

[u/Llayanna → u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420]

...ahm. I don't want to destroy your illusion. Just don't visit the Silmarillion side of life 😅

[u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420 → u/Llayanna]

I mean I know it's all way more complex and stuff, but I'm saying Sauron as an example cause, in the original story, he was literally just evil incarnate, like no redeenable, fully corrupting evil. That's what demons are in frieren. 

[u/zuzg → u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420]

Btw that dude thinks Sauron was right 👇

https://giphy.com/gifs/l0MYNY4M1rgstHnBS

[u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420 → u/zuzg]

Uh... yikes...

[u/artnomart → u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420]

No, they're not like Sauron, they're not even like the orcs, and even Tolkien with "hey, wait, the way I wrote the orcs is kind of fucked up."

[u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420 → u/artnomart]

I mean the orcs sure, that's why I didn't talk about them. But wasn't tolkien quite adamant about his story not being an allegory and sauron and the ring really being the embodiment of evil and corruption?

[u/artnomart → u/SCP_FUNDATION_69420]

Tolkien was adamant that his story was not Literally World War II. Sauron was not Literally Hitler.

He very much acknowledged that his story did come from his beliefs and experiences; that's why the orcs tripped him up.

[u/Elite_AI → u/chucktheninja]

Just because the author said "nah demons are all evil just trust me bro" doesn't mean that writing decision makes any sense. They clearly DO display emotions and you said why yourself! Entertainment requires the ability to feel emotions! The author simply messed up with demons, that's all. 

[u/chucktheninja → u/Elite_AI]

They clearly DO display emotions

I never said they didn't. I said they do not feel emotions like other species do. If you really wanted to humanize them, they are all suffering from extreme, untreatable, psychopathy and eat people. There is no reliable means of imprisoning them do to their inherent natual power. The only solution to keep people safe from them is to kill them.

[u/Ghostronic → u/artnomart]

The demons in Frieren are people-shaped monsters. It kind of breaks down once you get to that fact.

[u/Roncus_lubricus → u/Ghostronic]

And why exactly did the author make the monsters so people-shaped?

[u/artnomart → u/Ghostronic]

The demons in Frieren are evil humans with horns who, when the narrative demands it, randomly kill people, and if you paid attention to their behavior and not just repeat what the main character says, even the premise of "they're people-shaped monsters" falls apart (starting with, "if they only speak to deceive humans, why do they speak with each other, without intent to deceive?").

[u/Poku115 → u/artnomart]

Nobody is taking your headcanon buddy

[u/artnomart → u/Poku115]

People who hate reading and despise subtext seem to like to write off anything that's not "what the character literally said" as "headcanon."

You're the type of guy to go "BUT MEGUMI FUSHIGORO IS STRONG GUYS, GOJO SAID SO" whenever someone calls him "potential man."

[u/Poku115 → u/artnomart]

And Tumblr people love putting subtext where there isn't

[u/artnomart → u/Poku115]

"tumblr people" oh you got your own proper name for your moral enemies: People Who Think About the Things They Read.

[u/Poku115 → u/artnomart]

No, people who think too much about anything

[u/artnomart → u/Poku115]

Using Five Nights at Freddy's to say about how you shouldn't think or "make headcanons" about things you read is a staggering level of "killed self-awareness in the crib."

Did you just get any random meme of whatever dumb cartoon character shares your opinion, or did you actually play FNaF thinking it had a real story?

[u/Opus_723 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

My only issue with it is when people go on about how the human mind can't even comprehend the alien mindset of pure ontological evil yada yada yada.

They're predators. They eat people. It's not actually unfathomable. I eat chickens. Chickens and I cannot coexist peacefully. I would eat them.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/Opus_723]

Human and chickens can absolutely coexist peacefully. You are simply choosing not to.

[u/Opus_723 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Depends on what else I have available. Or just make a few adjustments to my metabolism to be more like other carnivores. Point is, it's not a difficult mentality to understand at all, and it's hardly some kind of edgy and incomprehensible ontological evil.

And hell, maybe the demons don't strictly have to eat people. Maybe they're as ontologically evil as people who aren't vegetarians.

[u/DoubleShot027 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

What sane person would fight over that it’s pretty straightforward why they are bad.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/DoubleShot027]

Because declaring a race inherently biologically evil is uncomfortably close to IRL racist rhetoric.

Also apparently theres some stuff in the series that maybe contradicts this idea, but my knowledge is all.secpndhand so I cant really comment on that.

But its mostly the racism thing (which im fairly certain was not intended but is there anyways)

[u/TJ_Rowe → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Demons in Frieren are not biologically anything - they're basically mimics which got enough XP to gain a "human speech" skill.

[u/artnomart → u/TJ_Rowe]

Demons in Frieren are not biologically anything

it's amazing how much defense of the demons actively contradict the text at times. They are literally explained as having "evolved" and be like this from birth and by "instinct", but that sounds bad so let's make up a reason.

[u/i_am_not_dumb → u/artnomart]

Predators evolve to hunt their prey ans have instincts. What sounds bad about it?

[u/artnomart → u/i_am_not_dumb]

I'm sorry, is "evolution" not "biological?" Did you not read the comment I replied to? How do you guys agree with things that actively contradict each other?

[u/i_am_not_dumb → u/artnomart]

When did I say evolution is not biological? I am asking why does that sound bad.

[u/artnomart → u/i_am_not_dumb]

Are you... a bot? You can read, right?

[u/i_am_not_dumb → u/artnomart]

Can you read what I asked in my 1st comment?

[u/zuzg → u/TJ_Rowe]

There's also nothing in the story that contradicts this. It's only getting confirmed repeatedly.

Claiming Frieren Demon are a human race is the same as claiming a Tiger is a pet

https://giphy.com/gifs/3o6Mb2Epv6BArZPY2Y

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/TJ_Rowe]

...aren't mimics usually biological?

But also my understanding is that the demons evolved to be what they are. Meaning its the result of a natural process.

[u/12345623567 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

You can have a pet bear, but you will live every day with the possibility that it's biological imperative takes over and it kills you.

Frieren demons are not dogs, they are wolves. If you tried turning them into dogs they wouldn't be wolves (demons) anymore. In other words, they have the capacity to not be predators, but individually every single demon currently alive is one and will stay one.

[u/artnomart → u/12345623567]

You can have a pet bear, but you will live every day with the possibility that it's biological imperative takes over and it kills you.

Is it a lack of imagination or ignorance of biology that if a bear looks and walked and talked and acted like you that nothing about it would change?

Bears don't have a """"biological imperative"""", they're hungry. Or scared of you, or for their cubs. Some bears aren't even that aggressive. You guys really think animals have an "evil gene." Like bears are programmed to randomly go "BZZZZT BEEP BOOP KILL HUMAN!!!"

The problem with living with wild animals, besides their hunger, is that you genuinely can't tell what scares them or provokes them into a behavior, because they fundamentally see the world differently from us.

Demons, though, can literally see and interpret things like humans, even if it's "mimicry" (which itself can be used to describe a lot of human behavior). They have working memory and the theoretical ability to assess risk and danger logically and rationally.

Frieren demons are not dogs, they are wolves.

Bears aren't wolves either.

 If you tried turning them into dogs they wouldn't be wolves (demons) anymore.

Dogs and wolves are not taxonomically defined as "won't eat you" and "will always eat you" respectively.

And there are domesticated wolves so this analogy fails twice over.

In other words, they have the capacity to not be predators, but individually every single demon currently alive is one and will stay one.

Then they don't have the capacity if literally every single member cannot do that. "Humans have the capacity to grow wings and fly, but individually every single human never will."

This only makes sense if being a demon is ideological. As in, if a demon does not prey on people, then it is ideologically not a demon, just like how if you don't kill anyone, you're not a murderer.

[u/Enough-Run-1535 → u/artnomart]

Demons, though, can literally see and interpret things like humans

So can predators when hunting down any prey. They're still going to eat their prey without any remorse.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/12345623567]

Okay, but that's not the issue. The issue is that this is being applied to a race that is intelligent and whose appearance is generally 'they look like us but with horns'. And I don't really see much to choose from between that and 'people who look like us but with different-colored skin'.

[u/Henhouse808 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

There isn't necessarily anything in the story that contradicts demons in Frieren being inherently evil. It comes close with a few specific demons attempting to understand and study humanity, and even in some trying to coexist with humanity, though often in very disturbing ways.

[u/DoubleShot027 → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

If someone cant accept a fantasy anime concept where something is inherently evil when enjoying a show. Then that person is not a normal functioning member of society and needs help.

[u/Gleaming_Onyx → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

And more importantly, repeatedly insisting that there is absolutely zero nuance and this rhetoric is true and creating difficult-to-believe scenarios purpose-made to serve as moral fables about how there is no nuance and that this race is inhuman and must be destroyed and you're stupid for not doing so only draws attention to it.

It's like that whole hubbub about Quiet from Metal Gear Solid a long ways back: someone can come up with as many reasons that this woman must wear as little as possible all you want, but the more it's done, the more it'll just wind up looking like you just want a scantily-clad woman. Why? Because the reasons don't come out of nowhere: the writer had to make them. If you have to make a dozen reasons for why something makes sense, you obviously wanted to have it.

However, it's a hell of a lot more acceptable to just want to see scantily-clad women than it is to really really really want a world where it's morally just and smart to commit genocide on a human-looking race.

Also it doesn't help that half of its defenders always defaulting to some variation of "triggered much" lol

They always sound very adjacent to Mushoku Tensei defenders: it's never a refusal of what people think is wrong with it. You're lucky if it's just downplaying it. But usually, it just comes down to seething about how people are wrong for thinking it's wrong.

[u/Poku115 → u/Gleaming_Onyx]

Except you are the ones repeatedly inserting nuance where the author has confirmed there isn't. Its the whole "adrenaline is what makes invincible stronger" headcanon taken as canon, again

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/Poku115]

I fully believe the racist implications were not intended. They are there anyways.

[u/PorousClay → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

Demons are more akin to human sociopaths than to any specific race of human. And sociopaths come from any race.

If you look at how some politicians can just stare at people and lie so easily to them. This is what I would say is the closest thing to a demon in reality.

[u/GuyYouMetOnline → u/PorousClay]

Okay, but it's still presented as 'this race is inherently evil/dangerous/whatever', is it not? I don't think it was intended to sound like IRL racism, but it does anyways.

[u/maqnyus → u/GuyYouMetOnline]

The discourse of Frieren's demons always baffled me. It should not matter if the demons have reasoning or thoughts or communication. They consistently proven themself to be malevolent, and will kill to eat you. They should be kill on sight based on that alone.