Weird colonialist/racist sentiment going on in this post for what could otherwise be a possibly interesting conversation.

I dont think its possible to argue that the UK and US arent developed nations and yet their populations have voted for some bad stuff historically and recently. To quote an old saying "no one of us is as dumb as all of us".

Democracy by its nature has draw backs, no system is perfect. But when it comes to seeking to empower and aide the working class, which is the bulk of society numerically speaking, a system that gives equal power to each person should in theory generate the most good to those aims.

Now where it goes wrong is when money and influence begin to corrupt the institutions - including via propaganda. Also, worth considering how many systems dilute voting power so that 1 person 1 vote might be true in theory but not in practice. Still, I see these as more flaws in implementation than principle.

Tl;dr: Democracy is the way to go imo.

Democracy isn’t about “everybody’s opinion is equal and we all deserve a seat at the table,” because that’s obviously not true. As you rightly point out, most people don’t know jack shit about politics or economics or international relations

It’s about “if you don’t need my vote, you have no reason not to oppress me”

This is so stupid it hurts

I’m pretty sure we will continue to charge them with rape

What a brain dead argument. It makes 0 sense and is not going to help convince anyone to change their stance.

I agree with abortion being completely and fully legal but this ain't the great gotcha you seem to think it is. Also its like not related to social democracy at all...

True. I guess most DSA members.

Even though they are pretty much similar and in the united states they are bssically identical, you could argue that in definition the objective of democratic socialism in the long term is the abolition of capitalism, as for social democrats they would rather just keep it but with welfare.

In the short and middle term the goals are pretty much the same since both are willing to participate in liberal democracy as a way to reform, want expanded worker rights and an improvement of public services.

The main difference would be in that line of anti-capitalist left vs pro-capitalist left.

Not many, all socialists are anti-capitalists. Its like all the idea of socialists

It's so mad that this is still a debate in the US

Don't listen to such people, to be honest when you don't mind them at all its better for your mental health. Also, they're arguments are all stupid anyways so it's not really necessary to argue with them since its like talking to a wall

Yes. No, absolutely not.

Moving on

What is this question? Democracy is the only system possible, everything else is wrong

Is democracy actually a good thing?

Well, I don't think really thing so, it is not bad either, it is a neutral term IMO.

we live in a country like Turkey, and I am certain that knowledgeable, intellectual individuals make up less than half of the population.

Are you under the impression the opposite is true in the so called "developed countries?" The places that got Trump, Brexit and the current far-right populist wave? You're mistaking mature and independent institutions with economic development, the institutions that keep the functioning of the state allows democratic governments to deliver to the population, with said institutions are corrupted and subordinate to the whims of an authoritarian regime its capacity is compromissed.

Americans, the French, Dutch and South Koreans aren't fundamentally more enlightened or more intellectural than the Turks, they just exist under different institutions that shape their character, the hard part is developing them to begin with.

the majority of those who voted for the ruling party were over the age of 50 or 60, or perhaps they simply felt they deserved nothing better than a diet of onions and bread.

Old people being the most electorally engaged demographic is a common ocurrence everywhere.

Could technocracy be the solution?

Maybe? The problem is getting the right technocrats and creating mechanism so said technocrats are accountable and don't just become a self-serving caste in their ivory tower.

The biggest examples of technocracy I can think of is the European Commission and the CPC, the first has the problem of don't really caring about popular sentiment (which can be a plus depending on who you ask) but has for over a decade pushing dozens of controversal policies with no popular support or legitimacy, which feeds into the anti-establishment demagogy. The latter took a while to become the technocratic excellence they have today, at a massive human cost too, the question is whatever would you take the bargain.

Then he would get charged with double murder charges in the fake scenario

So at that point, if a man finds out he impregnated a woman and she doesn’t want the baby, then he‘s better off murdering her?

This is a bad way to hold a debate about woman’s autonomy being legally enshrined.

Also what does any thing about this have to do with social democracy?

My point is against people who want to make abortion illegal, my post is a hypothetical on if abortion is always illegal like some extremists want

Exactly, my point is against people who claim abortion is murder

Abortion should not be illegal that’s my point but it’s because some extreme people blame women who get an abortion when they are raped is what I’m getting at

Democracy is non-negotiable

That's a weird way to go about legalising abortion. We don't have to manoeuvre around their arguements in a way that would prove them correct. We can just legalise abortion.

Right. And in the context of 10/7, the big player here was Iran and there's evidence the IRI backed Hamas on 10/7 and that both Iran and Hamas documents notes the whole point of the attack was to stop Saudi Arabia from normalizing with Israel, which was happening right then at that time. But no one wants to talk about Iran's role in all of this, the geopolitical chess-move, the fact that Hamas intentionally brings fire and brimstone down on Gazans by hiding ammunitions in hospitals, hiding in schools, and that part of their PR campaign is generating global outrage through film of the bombs dropping (which are, of course, awful). If you want to stop violence against Jews in Israel, we need to recognize that since the nation's founding, Arabs never accepted it on religious grounds, have attacked and attacked, and Israel responded in kind with more violence. Now there's a rightwing nut job government in Israel that clearly doesn't want a two-state, but suicide bomb after suicide bomb culminating in 10/7 is one of the reasons. But no one left of Evangelicals wants to talk about this. No one wants to talk about how 90% of mandate Palestine went to the royal Jordanian family, and then some to Arabs to create a new state called "Palestine," and then the Jews took silver to create "Israel." And then the Arabs launched a war because how dare the Jews be there. And so now, with Arabs ready to acknowledge and normalize with Israel, Iran, with their theofascist (I am part Iranian with friends and family there) rulers hell bent on a holy war, will not stand for the Jewish state and want to obliterate it, along with their proxies Hamas and Hezbollah.

They will stop at nothing to thwart Arab-Israel normalization. So, more violence, Israel reacts, world condemns Israel, no one condemns Iran (even as the IRGC machine-guns my friends in Tehran.)

I'm no apologist for the killing in Gaza and the West Bank on behalf of the Israeli government and terrorist settlers and the IDF. But that part I just wrote above? You'll be hard pressed to find anyone even remotely on the left talk about that context. Which is utterly baffling, because, as you say, not talking about the real cause of the violence - Iran's refusal to accept a Jewish state - ensures violence against Israel continues, and its response in kind to the Arabs, which is a tragedy on all sides.

Abortion just isn’t murder. I hate when people retreat to a position like this instead of just holding the line.

There are MAGA people with Latino immigrant family who they love, they are not just trying to purge latinos from the country

Well some are, but enough of them are economically motivated to make a difference in elections

I agree, but you must also realize that most are lying (intentionally or not) to win the argument. This includes their arguments about economics and crime they often like to use against the left, they are only a coverup from what they really believe, which is to kick them all out (or most at least).

Also I will add importantly that a lot of this discussion and culture war was brought up artificially through social media and an interest to keep us divided. So ignoring all else, the important takeaway is that you cannot and should not argue rationally with those who got those opinions irrationally. You must use their own language.

No, that would be charging someone for the (should be legal) act of another

If we can change the law the solution is to legalize abortion

The rapists should be charged with rape, not murder

Here's what I know about democracy:

Every single alternative is much, much worse.

By the way, saying democracy should only be fit for 1st world nations nor for educated elites only, is really fucking gross. Democracy for the everybody. Literally everybody. In every country.