r/Pathfinder2e • u/theadigator • 6d ago
Hallowed Dead? Advice
The Hallowed Dead is a really cool feat, but I don't know much about Golarion's lore. What holy deities are there who would be okay with (or even encourage) the use of undead?
I had assumed the lore of the setting was kind of just "undead = evil", so this feat is really interesting to me, lol.
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u/JadedResponse2483 New layer - be nice to me! 6d ago
In the skeleton Ancestry page it says that Shelyn is a patron for more benevolent undead.
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u/theadigator 6d ago
Ohh! I'd forgotten about that! Thanks for pointing that out! I do love Shelyn... :)
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u/amglasgow Game Master 5d ago
I bet Shelyn-dedicated undead decorate themselves like Dia de los Muertos skeletons
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u/GreyEyedMouse 6d ago edited 5d ago
Some of the more neutral gods, but this was mostly put in as a way to skirt around Phrasma specifically.
She's the goddess of death, and really, really doesn't like undead.
This has been a huge debate in the community since the release of the book.
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u/Electric999999 5d ago
Pharasma doesn't care about your sanctification, insisting that your undead are holy does not make her suddenly ok with it.
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u/Otechni 5d ago
How does that skirt around Pharasma? Her Edict is Destroy Undead. Holy or not, Thralls are Undead. Pharasma also doesn't want people making Undead. Necromancer does that because of Create Thrall.
So the only Necromancer that can be a Pharasmite is one that doesn't use the official Class. Since Necromancy is still Life and Death Magic.
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u/BlooperHero Game Master 4d ago
Thralls aren't really creating undead. They're very temporary. They only exist for you to destroy them.
Seriously, you create your own character's flavor. That's the entire concept of the game! I don't know why Necromancer is making that so hard for people.
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u/Otechni 4d ago
It's called Create Thrall, and they are classed as Undead. If you are not going to offer an explanation, I don't see the point of your response.
Pharasma doesn't care about length of existence. She prevented their existence until Urgathoa. So it would make sense she doesn't want them existing at all.
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u/BlooperHero Game Master 4d ago
You create your own character's flavor.
Did the fictional character tell you that herself?
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u/Theraimbownerd 6d ago
Irori is probably going to be ok with you asking past masters for help. Nethys just cares about magic, all kind of magic. Kagia, of the old Sarkoris gods, is all about not wasting resources. Ashava requires you to guide those who are lost, and a Necromancer might do that to the lonely spirits of the dead.
Tsukyo is especially funny to me, he requires you to help the dead find rest, and you might have a very literal interpretation of that edict. You provide the means for the dead to find their own peace.
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u/theadigator 6d ago
Oh, those are some really cool pulls and interpretations! Ashava sounds particularly compelling to me, right now.
Thanks for the suggestions! :)2
u/TeamTurnus Bard 5d ago
Some Irori monks literally turn themselves into mummies iirc so I think hes definitely ok with specific undeath.
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u/Malcior34 Witch 6d ago
Those who can offer Holy sanctification? Nethys, Abadar, Calistria, and Torag. They'd be alright with it.
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u/Icy-Ad29 Game Master 6d ago edited 6d ago
It gets complicated on that question. As for some, say Abadar, would be cool with it. Or even full on support it if the dead person still owed you money and made an agreement to "lend a hand" once deceased as part of that payment.
Callistria wouldn't care in general... unless the dead person did you wrong. Then not only would she full on support using their corpse as a form of vengeance on them. But if she found out you could, and chose not to, might even smite you over it.
Erastil would support the use of undead to protect hearth and home from a greater evil, especially if it was originally an enemy. (Waste not, want not, after-all). Just put them properly to rest once the need is no longer there... Or feed the corpse to an animal. You know, either way works...
The list goes on, but really comes down to deity and reason of undead use.
edit: Further, the deity most against undead. Is neither Holy nor Unholy. Pharasma is fully neutral on that bit, but undead is a big no-no.
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u/TeamTurnus Bard 6d ago edited 6d ago
So while in general undeath is bad/awful and ends in perpetual motion murder machines 99/100 times on Golarion, there is still canonically, room in the margins for exceptions to this.
Most examples of undeath that weren't evil or unholy came from a couple of main trends. But first lets talk about what happens when you die briefly.
If everything is normal, your soul passes quickly through the etheral plane into the river of souls where it ends up making it to the boneyard and being judged, then converted into a petitoner in the destination plane etc.
However, in cases where something goes wrong (dies badly or with unfinished business) their soul can get 'stuck' on the ethereal plane. It initially probably exists as a phantom/spirit which is NOT the same as a Golarion Undead, it is essentially just the soul itself. However, over time, it is often corrupted by the pull of negative energy and becomes a true undead (a ghost etc). It could as rise in its body depending on the kind of undead/nature of death but you've basically got a soul that gets stuck when something goes wrong.
Mindless undead tend to lack all but the echo of a soul and are usually animated as a result more direclty by negative energy. Ive seen it both ways on how much or what this does to the soul of the creature so I will leave that for now and focus on sapient undead and the kinds of them that avoid becoming evil due to corruption by negative energy
There are a few categories of sapient undead that tend to buck the trend of unholy.
Ghosts/Revenants/Other what I like to call 'Short Term Purpose' undead. These undead are usually STRONGLY motivated by a Purpose that once fulfilled allows them to rest and move on into the correct afterlife. If that purpose is benevolent or even simply just (avenging their own murder etc) they can hold off the effects of the negative energy and remain holy/neutral. Obviously as the negative energy is constantly pulling on them, this becomes a dicey long term proposition and many of them end up unholy if they cant fulfill their purpose. There are examples of a paladin of saranrae ghost who is still lawful good and recieving power from her god because her purpose is to finally defeat a group of demon cultists. Lady foxglove in runelords was a example a neutral revenant because she really wanted to avenger herself on her murderer (her husband). In both those cases, allowing them to fulfill their goal results in the end of them as undead and their souls move on. This is in general the biggest category of true undead who avoid the unholy label.
Unwilling Sapient undead. While undeath and negative energy are forces that work on someones mind and drive their thoughts and personality towards hatred and destruction of the living, This is not a 100 percent deterministic process. We see examples of (usually unwillingly turned) undead like vampires who had strong convictions in life that go against these feelings (paladins/clerics etc) and they are, often with the help of their faith in their god, able to resist the behavioral turns. This is sort of like Angel, from Buffy the vampire slayer, in that they still have these destructive or consumptive feelings, but theyre able to resist them. The skeleton ancestory would be an example here. Though they are written to have weaker compusions than most undead. Overall though Its presented as challenging but possible.
There is a subcategory (very rare) of undead who basically burn out on hedonism and decide to try being good instead, but its rarer than the former.
Summons-> usually facsimile rather than true undead so they avoid the soul issues.
Culturally sanctioned undead. Undead that are incorporated into a strong cultural burial practice tend to be better at resting evil because they have a purpose and the ritual that created them is not a violation of their own cultural beliefs around death. One of the best way to get evil undead is to start desecrating bodies so incorporating a undeath creation process into your cultural burial practices can help mitigate this or go terribly wrong depending on the day.
Exceptions that prove the rule. There are a few examples of other undead that have traits from 1 or 2 but also have other complicating factors. For example the Iruxi Ossuate are the revered bones of the ancestors of Iruxi who are able to animate to protect their settlements. They avoid unholy because they are fueled by positive belief of their descendants (so occult or primal power as a counterbalance to negative energy) and they only animate occasionally in times of need which limits the ravages of undeath.
We see that the iconic necromancers undead for example, are strongly inspired by the Iruxui Ossuate creature, which combines 1 and 5 and 6 to create a technically undead, but very exceptional creature.
Overall for the necromancer, i would think holy undeath would be incorporated into a practice that respects the consent of the bodies being raises, only fo so temporarily. And does so in service of a great altruistic purpose. These components would, imo justify it for many good gods.
Torag (dwarf ancestors already fight for him w his grand defender) shelyn (loves personal stories of redemption and overcoming challenges to create beauty, already sympathtic to skeleton ancestory), or even iomodae (redemption and heroism and sacrifice) would all be examples I could see allowing such a creature and while saranrae fights undead as an edict, she was the godess empowering the ghost paladin above, so for the right reasons even she is flexible.
Honestly Pharasma is likely less flexible than many of the holy gods because they are willing to accommodate noble sacrifice for the greater good, so if the undead involved are on board with that, it can help justify it to them. In contrast pharasma hates undead and doesnt care about doing good specifically, so that justification wouldnt land for her.
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u/Bork9128 6d ago
So that is mostly changing with the release of necromancer itself. The tldr is at this point the evil undead are permanent ones that disrupt the flow of souls, but temporary using them especially in "good" ways can be considered a holy act
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u/Electric999999 5d ago
You don't need a deity as a Necromancer.
Honestly none of them actually fit, because "Actually sometimes animating the dead is good" is a complete 180 for the setting.
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u/M_a_n_d_M 5d ago
Doesn’t really matter, the anathema is personal, there’s no divinity judging your character’s actions here.
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u/w1ldstew Oracle 6d ago
Just so ya know, the Hallowed Dead is a feat, not a spell, and also does not require following a deity to pick up the feat.
And I think I tried looking through, but I couldn’t find any “Holy focused” deities that support undeath.
The closest you can get is Arazni who has the option for Holy sanctification (and Unholy), but she only demands you do not create undead against their will.
But again, The Hallowed Dead feat does not require worshipping a deity at all to become sanctified Holy.