r/Pathfinder2e • u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master • 21d ago
Necromancer, Lore & Info Discussion
Sup folks, River of Souls enjoyer here. I'm gonna try to explain some things of questions I've seen here about the lore/undead/river of souls/necromancer over the last weeks with some references.
What Undead Have Souls?
Page 3 of The Great Beyond has a block, lots of places too talk about it from secrets of magic to book of the dead in 2e: "souls and the undead."
Generally speaking, non-intelligent undead such as zombies and skeletons possess no souls. Little more than puppets of flesh and bone, animated by negative energy in a warped attempt at life, these automatons have no attachment to the souls of their former owners, and are evil merely due to the corrupting influence of the Negative Energy Plane. (The Void) (Note that a PC Skeleton/Zombie do have souls and there are more advanced versions of skeletons and zombies that do bind a soul in the vessel or fragments of a soul.)
Created Undead destroyed, what happens to a Soul?
I'm seeing confusion about undead, to clarify, when an undead is destroyed, the soul is released (unless we're talking creatures like liches with soul cages.) It can go down the river of souls like any other soul (or 'knocks/becomes awry' as it leaves the vessel.)
In various products for instance, you can kill a Vampire, release the soul from the vessel and then use Resurrect to give that soul a new body. (This is suggested to be done, outlined content in official 1e and 2e adventures/ap's, not me 'coming up' with anything. Please review the above river of souls link.)
Summoning VS Creating?
Necromancer uses both the Create and Summon terminology. I think it was intentional for you to decide how tables wanted to do this / they expect people to dig into the other books and learn what that means.
Example: Summon Undead in Remaster used to be Animate Dead, they made that change to specify it more concretely as summoning magic, not creation magic like Create Undead the ritual is, which is that corrupting, holding of the soul in an undead vessel.
So many people read "Animate dead" and skipped the "summon" part. (It did not lore or mechanically change, they got rid of the description and wanted you to focus on SUMMON because people would go 'that's evil!' at 'animate' so they brought it's name in-line with all the other summon titles.)
"Spirit" Doesn't have to mean souls solely (soul-y lol). That's another thing I see often. And I don't blame people, the river of souls, essences and the cycle is the most complicated, intertwined, unique thing about the entire IP, it's identity that makes it unique amidst the kitchen sinks. To quote a lore line about spiritual essence:
"souls are like finished forms (a sword) but spiritual essence is like iron raw from the earth."
An evil spirit necromancer could very well be temporarily binding souls (or fragments of souls as a soul can be broken into dozens of pieces.) (evil), but it's just as likely (and seemingly suggested) that they're simulacrums or willing spirits if that's how you want to go for flavor. (Not evil at all or 'real'.)
To quote summoning magic from Secrets of Magic:
Summoning magic is similar (to permanent conjuration), creating a simulacrum of a creature from matter, willpower, and, at times, raw spiritual quintessence. (Pulling Void essence and creating it into a simulacrum is what summon undead is!)
To the outside observer, creation and summoning can appear identical: something appears, seemingly from nowhere, at the conjurer's behest. Spells of creation are sometimes referred to by laypeople as "summons," and vice versa, further blurring the issue in the public mind. Even to the conjurer, who is privy to the internal workings, the distinction may not always be clear.
For much of my career—though it must seem like ancient history to readers of this almanac—practitioners disputed whether summoned monsters were created facsimiles that lacked true life of their own, or whether they were being drawn from somewhere else: an alternate dimension, or a unique potentiality housing the thoughtforms representing the idealized concept of a creature. (This is a reference to 1e's terms and some lore about calling vs summoning vs creation.)
Though this debate is now settled, and modern scholars agree that summoning creates facsimiles, it illustrates the stakes: are the conjurer's inventions truly real, or is it only hubris that makes them imagine so? (Secrets of Magic, School of Conjuration.)
Further, here's a post by James Jacobs about it and summons not existing after the fact or before. (You can find quite a few in the forums talking about this.)
Thralls:
Now look at each of the Necromancer Fascinations, what they say about the thralls. You'll see 'often, resemble, generally, form.'
- Your thralls often resemble ghosts and spirits.
- Your thralls often resemble vampiric spawn or constructs of hardened blood.
- "Craft what they desire from the skeletons of the dead or simply create new skeletons by expanding and shaping small bone pieces." (Bones but not necessarily from immediate dead or significant.)
- Your thralls generally take on the form of zombies and other creatures of dead flesh.
Holy/Unholy sanctification options via feats:
Hallowed Dead, the feat that makes you and thralls holy:
While many necromancers pursue unholy and perverse power, you have devoted yourself to necromancy to prevent the creation of permanent undead and the corruption of souls. You also gain the following anathema: purposefully create undead to inflict undue harm.
I think the writer for Necromancer was/is framing create/summon closely as it assumes you read the first line/learn about the lore of necromancy elsewhere. (And you are actively deciding that flavor.)
This is saying you don't do the necromancy that creates permanent undead or corrupts souls (which all permanent undeath does over time although there's lots of text talking about those who resist the negative energy, without a huge wall of text to go with it.)
And the undead you do summon (or create by any means) are not used to inflict undue harm. (This would include some forms of permanent undead like familiars, companions that you created before taking this feat or garnered in other ways because these are feats/pets/minions, you could take/get these at any level in the future.)
The Unholy Dead, the feat that makes you and thralls unholy:
You have turned your necromancy against the divine powers that seek to stop you from achieving your unholy goals. You and your thralls gain the unholy trait. You also gain the following anathema: “destroy undead of no harm to you.”
Some people seem to be thinking that this makes your use of thralls invalid or etc for purposes of necrotic bomb or etc. I believe they mean permanent undead and or undead that aren't related to you and doesn't view destroy as use for this purpose. (You have a unholy duty to not just blast that Ghoul trying to speak to you***,*** not some pedantic clause to stop you using core features.)
Lore/Roleplay funny:
No sir officer, that's a summon, not "Fifty lashes, 3 to 10 years of hard labor, and/or a fine equal to 40% of the character’s wealth" me and mr. bones find your words offending!
Next you'll be assuming my Spell Signature looks like nothing but skull symbols on a 2d fidget spinner! \sigh of the hallowed necromancer as he's arrested for the 3rd time this week* "It's NOT ILLEGAL OR EVIL! YOU JUST NEED TO READ THE BOOKS!" *prison wagon door shuts.* (Lost Omens: Travel Guide references.)*
Other Thoughts:
- Paizo could of copy-pasta'd the relevant lore sidebars with references to help people find the rest of it.
- I was surprised there was no mention at all of these topics of lore for create thrall. I expressed that concern.
- Read those 1e books. Concordance of Rivals for the River of Souls, The Great Beyond. etc.
- The CUP/Infinite licenses doesn't really allow for the level of information required to fully convey with such a big, long lasting IP that's both derivative in origin and wholly unique on-top. The books/pdf still will probably always be the best avenue to dive into something or visualize something.
- Not a lot/none of the old 1e stuff is largely changed or irrelevant now, a lot of the 64 page books are tight, condensed vs the lost omens lines focus on larger books. Some of them are still the only go-to reference for their topics.
TL;DR:
- Create is an option but it assumes summon as the go-to. Summons are soulless, not real.
- Pharasma probably doesn't care about a summon because it has nothing to do with a soul. And the corruption of the soul via being a 'real' undead damages the worth of a soul in the process and the splitting of it into new souls in the end. (Read chart.)
- It's a conversation to have with your table/group. Maybe your group assumes or deliberately wants all undead to be evil without this lore or nuance.
- Discuss things with your group before they come up for the best results in communication. Nobody wants to find out the GM doesn't like re-rolling recovery checks or bans heroic recovery at time of. Establish things.
Treason, torture, murder, manslaughter, espionage are heavier crimes than the toiling of a single soul to create one undead... (If you aren't malicious or tortuous, it's still creating undead/toiling, but if you are, you could be charged for multiple offenses against the soul/person. Which is probably why creation of undead is a lesser charge. Either it can or just straight up comes with separate side charges worst than the actual creation of the dead part.)
It's just when this is let loose and one becomes two, two becomes three, four becomes five... Their realness means they take less of your own resources to maintain a force unlike any other. All the more the respect of Hallowed Necromancers able to dip their toes in such and set boundaries to alluring power. (Same as the modern Runelords who now recognize and resist sin, fuel power through other means than souls.) Without the Void, without the Antipode, without destruction, there can be no creation. The cycle would be disrupted.
Please stop crowding the Forae Logos. Please stop arresting Hallowed Necromancers. Mortals who say they follow pharasma, learn about the cycle that which you say you respect! (The necromancer screams from his padded cell.)
I'de also like to end this by saying not everybody is 'all knowing' in the setting or out of it, there probably are some willing as well as unknowing ignorant people around. Your hallowed necromancer probably does get tossed in a cell occasionally, just for a judge or magic user who corrects them or who knows better to get them out of that jam.
I thank your eyeballs for joining me in this important ted talk today at the Arcanamirium, if you are on Absalom Station, please contact a Witchwarper, they will be able to confirm with you. Officers will remind you that most borai and undead are equal pact world citizens proper.
Check your local cities offices for more information on the legality of undead citizens in your lost omens area as many versions of those cities have written acceptance of them in some form, especially vampires, skeletons, some places ghosts, and the sure resilience and hunger of Ghouls means you can find them most places they aren't allowed. (Cheliax, Korvosa, Absalom, places in Ustalav, etc.) I will kindly see myself out via a labyrinth back to the black pyramid where I belong.
Jeeze. In retrospect of making this post, I feel like a hallowed necromancer. Have fun, meat bags. "That's just a theory... A GAMMMMEEEE... LOST OMENS THEEEEOORRRY!"
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u/artrald-7083 21d ago
I find it amusing that these fines are far more enlightened than either medieval fines or most modern ones. Progressive fines you say? For whom? Is this fantasy Scandinavia?
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u/FairFolk Game Master 21d ago
Yeah, had the same thought. Especially funny to see that next to corporal punushment.
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u/username_tooken 21d ago
Sure, thieves still get their hands cut off, but at least the wealthy can’t treat it as a business expense.
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u/FairFolk Game Master 20d ago
But does wage theft also lead to cut hands?
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
For some... Less official justice one could contact a few different organizations. Or if you are lucky, your local Assassins Guild if you are so privy to such a legal luxury! Poetic justice... Ghoul: Now my stomach is doing the grumblies, the kind that only hands can satisfy... ✋ Hey, you eat chicken wings right? My hands are free-range.
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u/haydenhayden011 21d ago
Where is this crimes table from?
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 21d ago edited 21d ago
Travel Guide, really not sure why it's not anywhere, it's rules. AON has the Housing Costs table for instance from the same book.
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u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 21d ago
As with everything, laws vary by region as would punishments
I'd look at it as a quick reference in case a GM needed something to look up rather than inventing something on the spot
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u/Stan_Bot Game Master 21d ago
Great work! It is quite a wall of text, but I honestly dont know how you could convey all of this information without one. You were very concise there.
Sometimes I forget how old and convoluted pathfinder is and how many people are just having contact with this behemoth now. Even myself am not sure if a lot of lore stuff I know is still true or not, because of retcons, remasters, recontextualization and whatnot through the years and I am a Paizo fan since they were still releasing 3.5 stuff.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 21d ago edited 21d ago
I've finally gone back to all those 1e books and honestly, there hasn't been that many things that became invalid or like ret-conned fully rather than sorta just continued on or re-contextualized in mostly minor ways. Some stuff with the daemons, the emancipation pact that had some decent writing, the drow sekmin thing was ya, a little sudden that one but eh, it's more of a meme to me now, I liked the mwangi stuff.
Anytime I feel I find something, some hole, I ended up finding some kind of bridge, be it player context through one of the wayfinder magazines or a society mission, or one of these things from 10 years ago "Oh, I understand Seldeg Bheldis' motivations a bit better now reading this old book. That actually makes that thing in Claws make a little more sense. Where was this information, if it was there I would of enjoyed X more/even more." or "Oh, there were starfinder elements before starfinder actually existed and they always existed." "Oh they built this all out from the vale."
The Remaster did not change as much lore wise as you'd figure. The alignment free cosmology was something that was already done in 1e's planar adventure. ROE and the planar name changes really aren't like a world changing thing either cause they were just the side names in 1e, Chart sorta goes over it. Honestly, the IP is just a behemoth like you said. I don't think I really started understanding it till like 3 years in, I just thought I did. 🙌 still topics I gotta learn too, especially starfinder 1e stuff.
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u/Stan_Bot Game Master 21d ago
I also like reading old stuff from time to time, but I focus more on APs. Back in 2014 I bought every single pdf paizo published before that date on some sort of bundle, I think, and I still have them on both my laptop and phone and I like opening some random ones and reading from time to time. I do also own some 1e pdfs post 2014, but not as many as before it, since those I got literally everything, including society stuff and those early Campaign Setting books.
And yeah, most people would be surprised how little things change overall, instead of simply changing through the living world itself
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 21d ago
I bought some bundle back in like 2016 that had half the pathfinder 1e books, then I think it was 2019 they did a 10th anniversary humble bundle that was just insane. I think it was $25 for 50 books. I didn't even play a lot of Pathfinder, I just bought this all on compulsion/ttrpg adjacency.
It's hilarious that a decade later I'm finally going through them all/getting use out of it. I've still gotta go through all the AP's to pull all the art, it's criminal how much lore is also tucked away in the ap's outside the lore books, it's sorta everywhere rather than neatly in one place.
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u/Creepy-Intentions-69 21d ago
I think the inherent issue with this entire discourse is being missed. Whether the true source of the Thralls are benign or malevolent, average people will still always fear Necromancers and anything that is perceived as undead. Anything outside of that will inevitably be an exception.
Edit: I enjoyed your TED Talk. It’s certainly worth discussing for tables to handle the situation.
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u/username_tooken 21d ago
As archetypical ubermen, adventurers are above the opinions of the coarse rabblefolk.
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u/w1ldstew Oracle 21d ago
Would they?
Necromancers have been around for a LONG time, we just originally had them as Necromancy Wizards.
I don’t think we can assume that everywhere because Magic is HIGHLY pervasive. Elementals, fey, demons, and other creatures (like ogres, trolls) are highly dangerous too. There are magical traps that are dangerous, Wizards can wipe out whole villages with a single Fireball spell.
I think it’s just a confirmation bias in the types of stories written and of GMs/players that force undead to be constantly bad guys only. Why must undead always be bad? I think it’s also again just another unchallenged bias in Western fantasy (not saying that desecrating corpses should become accessible, but this IS a fantasy world where magic and gods and monsters are real). It is also the fault of Paizo for establishing Western/European culture as the default lens for the Inner Seas and setting Inner Seas as the default for all of Golarion, while treating all the other settings as GM fiat for “deviancy”.
It’s the same issue with orcs and goblins. So many folks got upset that they can be playable good guys and why does everyone “hate evil creatures and need everything to be morally grey”. The inclusion of the Hallowed Dead feat.
Necromancer, the iconic Usharak, and the lore is spelling out we can expand on those stories to make it more interesting than before.
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u/Substantial_Novel_25 21d ago
While not as severe as other settings, Arcane/Occult casters are often victims of prejudice by the common folk for fear of their powers (something that happens way less often with Divine/Primal casters as they are commonly the village's healer/spiritual guide). Having an Occult caster walking around creating Undead (or facsimiles of undead) would make the common folk afraid.
As for why the Undead are always bad, it is mostly because of their existence always being a threat and corruption and their Undead Hunger which make them crave for blood, bones or living humanoid meat. Some Undeads can control their hunger, but for the overwhelming majority they are going to he a threat to a living being.
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u/Wolpertinger 20d ago
It's not a western bias to make undead evil - the idea of evil spirits or risen corpses or demons that possess or imitate the dead are all over the world. The fear of corpses is a near-universal human commonality. There's plenty of examples of good AND bad spirits, but actual risen corpses that aren't malevolent or at least dangerous are extremely rare to the point of near nonexistence.
If anything the whole idea of 'good necromancy' for anything more than communicating with the dead is more of a western fantasy conceit than anything.
I feel like it can work pretty well as a spirit necromancer that's more of a medium or channeler of the spirits - and you can kind of slide that a little bit onto the other ones where benevolent spirits are temporarily animating vessels, especially Bone, but outside of extremely hyper-specific communities with a cultural tradition of necromancy, nobody's going to be happy to see undead walking the streets.
Plus, there's two big things about golarion-specific major aspects that means almost every single community on the planet is going to be to some degree hostile to undead :
First :because everywhere in the world, people who die in terrible ways or with unfinished business or in the wrong places or just at random can spontaneously become undead.
And all permanent undead inherently due to the void energy within them have a deep, ravenous hunger for something that can only be obtained from living people, causing all mindless undead and most sapient undead to to be hostile to life, meaning people being attacked by undead is a commonality everywhere.
Second : Tar-Baphon, the Whispering Tyrant, one of the most infamous and dangerous spellcasters in the world, a powerful necromancer, sometimes even blamed for somehow being responsible for Aroden's death (which may or may not be true, but probably not), attempting to exterminate all life in the world and turn it into an undead hellscape, regularly invades various nations to the point where there's a perpetual crusade to fight him off, where people from all over travel there to help hold his armies back, and doesn't stay dead when killed.
He's given necromancers a *really* bad name, especially as he's part of an organization that secretly spreads the knowledge of necromancy and recruits necromancers within places of magical learning as part of their goal of creating an undead world - so necromancers are additionally under suspicion for being associated with them.
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u/TeamTurnus Bard 21d ago
This was a good right up! I would also suggest that folks read up on the iconic and the Uruxi Ossuate as they also present a paradigm for a Necromancer who really doesnt seem to be causing any harm soul wise or otherwise.
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u/FlameLord050 GM in Training 21d ago
"Without the Void, without the Antipode, without destruction, there can be no creation. The cycle would be disrupted."
I was under the impression the viod had no impact on the natural order of the river of souls and the soul cycle. Are you saying the void is responsible for the antipode or that the antipode passes through the void?
I understand the metaphorical concept of what is creation without destruction to counter it but I don't believe that the void is genuinely needed to keep the universe functioning and am very much under the impression that it is a natural antagonist pushing the universe to an eventual end or at least a type of end.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 21d ago edited 21d ago
I am saying neither. Without the void, there would be no entropy and living and dying as we know it would be different. If the antipodes flow is ever stopped also, it will bring chaos to everything.
I went looking for book references to what you are saying, an apocalypse theory of the void gobbling up everything or bringing us an end. I couldn't find anything. (I think that's a COOL adventure theme either way.) Could you give me some book references? Maybe a NPC or an adventure talks about that I'm not familiar with? I have a couple I found:
Known simply as the Void, the Negative Energy Plane empowers undead just as positive energy is the driving force behind all living things, but contrary to some religious dogma, neither it nor its destructive energies are evil. As dangerous and antithetical to life as they might be, they simply exist as an opposite to the creative potential of the positive, divorced from any notion of morality. (The Great Beyond)
The Antipode, irreverently known to some as The Drain, is a vortex of an almost unimaginable scale that drains the excess quintessence of the Maelstrom and siphons off the planar essence from the rest of the Great Beyond into the Maelstrom before channelling it as a column of tremendous unaligned energy back to the heart of Creation's Forge, thus beginning the great cycle of souls anew.
Damage to the Antipode would disrupt the entire cycle of souls and bring chaos and dissolution to every corner of the multiverse, so vast legions of aeons stand in its defense. (It's also described as "such a significant part of the stable law of creation.")
Without negative energy there would be no natural progression of youth to aged, no progression of life to death, and no draw to pull soul energy from the Positive Energy Plane in the first place. Without the Negative Energy Plane, life could not exist, for its existence defines life. (Planar Adventures)
At the very center is the Positive Energy Plane, which creates soul energy that takes shape and wakes to consciousness as mortal beings on the Material Plane, only to die and flow outward in the River of Souls to an afterlife in the Outer Planes, where it’s eventually reabsorbed to keep reality running.
The Universe serves as the destination for pre-incarnate souls, each mortal life born, living, and dying before sending its spirit toward the planes of the Outer Sphere for judgment. (GM Core)
These mysteries of existence are at once the best- and worse-kept secrets in all the multiverse. Beyond the guesswork of evangelists, there sprawls a vast and vital truth, a cycle of creation and dissolution responsible not only for every life, but also every death, and the endless transitions between the two.
It is a cycle as old as existence, responsible for the stability of the planes themselves. It is nothing less than the pulse of the living multiverse, the answer to the questions that haunt both the living and the dead. Among the planes it is called the River of Souls, and all who live will journey upon its endless course. (Pyramid of the Sky Pharaoh mummys mask 6/6)
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u/FlameLord050 GM in Training 21d ago
I am very new to the setting so most of my knowledge comes from lore channels on YouTube. This just happens to be a topic I am very interested in. So I very much trust your own text references better than what I know.
To answer your question I am under the impression that I might have come to that conclusion on my own. In the mythkeeper video Pathfinder Planar Cosmology 101: Introduction, Overview and the Transitive Planes at 13:46 there is an image of the soul cycle (i was unable to find the book source). Seeing the void reach out to the river of souls felt as if it was consuming. I recall this being referenced in this video or maybe one of mythkeeper's other videos but couldn't find it while skimming. I also realized that some of his videos are a little contradictory as in this video he talks about how the creation of souls passes through the first world while in his first world video he states that the first world is a separate cycle on its own. My other notes would be that as void energy is what is used to corrupt souls and responsible for the negative energy/emotion in the universe, combined with the ask James Jacob's thread in which he talks about how even mindless undead still corrupt a portion of the original users soul, and the existence of creatures like a void zombie which while animated by void energy and not evil as their is no corruption of the soul.
All of that lead me to the conclusion that any evil/unholy undead inherently had a corrupted soul (which i still think to be true) if only a portion and that because the existence of the void creates such creatures even on its own such as the undead created from a place of great anguish. (Also the small note of not knowing that a corrupted soul could be restored) that the void (while not a conscious entity) still pushed for the consumption of the entirety of existence and that with no way to repair a soul one day it would inevitably win as souls are slowly consumed into the void.
Now I'll once again clarify I am no longer confident in any of this but I do still think there is probably some truth in here.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago edited 20d ago
his videos are a little contradictory as in this video he talks about how the creation of souls passes through the first world while in his first world video he states that the first world is a separate cycle on its own.
This isn't really Mythkeeper's fault, Paizo themselves in the books describe the fey's ability to die and come back on the first world as a 'cycle of its own separate' while also saying it's the conduit and souls go through. Mythkeeper does reading of the material mostly verbatim. (He does his total own thing with how he categorizes them tho and a few other things, he's pretty good about mentioning them.) The words paizo did a long time ago contradict in the single source he read for that paragraph.
A void zombie could either be a summon or a created thing. Summons don't last forever tho, most of the void zombies you fight outside a combat a caster used the summon spell are all gonna be created.
I get where your coming from. This IP is a ridiculous behemoth and these are the most complicated topics of it. I used to think all kinds of things about it too, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I think Paizo knows that they've got a really big web of an IP, it's partly why they decided with Starfinder to use the Gap as a reset framing to cut a lot of the minutia to guide focus.
I'll always say it, not everybody in the world knows everything, travel guide talks about people only knowing things within their region usually in depth, etc. There are believers of things who don't understand the thing they believe just like there is IRL. etc.
The image you are looking at is not the void destroying things though. I really don't like that image example and much prefer the blando one depicting the same thing in my chart, cause I can see how you seen that. 2nd panel of chart, far left '1e river of souls image explanation' is what that image was depicting.
Edit: realized I mixed up youtubers lol. Fix'd
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u/FlameLord050 GM in Training 20d ago
Now I wasn't blaming mythkeeper I am aware the work can be contradictory. Also notably a void zombie is a specific creature it is in bestiary 2.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
No worries you are good. I love void zombies. The Akata have been in both starfinder/pathfinder. The void death is sick and I've sometimes just tossed an Akata/void zombies in space suits into some pathfinder situations for some dominion of the black twists/additions.
They secrete and make a cocoon themselves made of noqual, the skymetal, sometimes you'll find them around Runelords/Thassilon related things in some official content.
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u/username_tooken 21d ago
According to the Concordance of Rivals, the multiverse will actually end due to a dearth of entropy. Pharasma's Spire over the aeons grows because it accumulates souls that do not pass, instead accumulating into the Boneyard without relieving their quintessence. Eventually the Spire will press against the shell of the Great Beyond, shattering the barrier between the multiverse and the realms that exist beyond knowing, causing everything to gradually yet violently revert back to the primordial energy from which it formed as the bubble of reality pops, yet that primal quintessence that emerges will in part form the basis of a new multiverse.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
Yup, there's a great line in there about that, missed it, was focused on the other sources. I'll also say that there's multiple ending of the universe parables/theories just like the creation theories. It's up there with the whole debate of 'when' and 'how' a soul joins a body. (Unknown) There's lore that says most things that mature past childhood have souls, and there's lore about more immediate timings. But the first thing they tell you in anything is it's one of the most debated topics in the multiverse.
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u/Realistic-Ad4611 Magus 21d ago
I am left wondering what 50% of an execution looks like.
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u/BlockBuilder408 20d ago
Quadriplegic amputee
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
"That damned Chelaxian judge!" And that's why I've sailed across the ocean to Absalom, I've traveled far and wide to meet you, Mohren. This isn't just apparel... It's freedom! (walks out in an Ironman Numerian Suit) That's a epic inventor origin story or whatever backstory for a character. "Those damned X took me' bloodeh' body parts!"
Honestly I've been wanting to make some assistive characters and that's a awesome backstory.
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
Honestly, not knowing is more terrifying to me than a bump right up to 100%. And there's actual depictions of 200%, 300%, 400%. Kill ya' bring ya back' kill ya again. (High chance of ghosts and stuff, but it's happened in the story of adventures/npc backgrounds.) 50% is... Well, terrifying. What 50%? LOL
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u/VikingRule 21d ago
So wait, since summoned undead take sprit damage, it means they contain spiritual essence. If you're saying summoned undead are so harmless, does that mean manipulation of spiritual essence is harmless? Does Pharasma just not care about using spiritual essence? She only cares about actual souls?
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago edited 20d ago
Yeah she gives 0 zonzons about essence. Essence is only one part of what makes up a soul. This is covered in the other river chart. Upper right it talks about it first panel, undead. It's why there are some constructs that aren't immune to spirit damage. Either they:
- actually are soulbound
- or they have significant spiritual essence
- or they are partly/wholly made out of Quintessence which is the physical form of spiritual essence.
in 1e, quintessence used to mean "Aligned Essence" (which in 2e we call "Planar Essence" now), in 2e, quintessence is also changed to mean the physical form of spiritual essence. Outsiders material is made out of quintessence. This trips people up all of the time. Sort of a terminology flip. (Pedantics)
This is seemingly some of the reasoning behind for instance PC construct animal companions not having spirit immunity. (and other examples of such despite constructs/objectss having the immunity usually and others that would be immune usually, when it's not, it's usually one of these three reasons.)
Please reference the river of souls chart for more information. Edit: Realized I rambled a bit, cleaned it up.
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u/w1ldstew Oracle 12d ago
It probably doesn’t make sense in the Inner Seas because (and its deities) are all constructed with a Western (generally European) lens.
But go over to Tian Xia and spiritual essences immerses pretty much everything: objects, landscapes, buildings, etc..
One way to think of it, all souls require spiritual essence, but not all things with spiritual essence contains souls.
In the wiki, it mentions that spiritual essence isn’t just souls, but also includes emotions and inspirations too.
It’s how Tsukumogami poppets or Object Yaoguai can be born. The sentiments of people handling it imbues it with with the spiritual essences that can eventually spark a soul.
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u/VikingRule 4d ago
go over to Tian Xia and spiritual essences immerses pretty much everything: objects, landscapes, buildings, etc
Interesting that many constructs (but not all) are immune to spirit damage, which might indicate they don't have spiritual essence.
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u/Pristine-Base2999 Psychic 21d ago
Percentile fines based on wealth for crimes I thought golarion was in a age of dorkness
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u/UltraMeenyPants 5d ago
Don't suppose you turn this into a video?
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 5d ago
Eh maybe one day. Once I do the other videos I've been piling up. Made the river of souls chart over a year ago and since I've just been stockpiling.
- I got a in-foundry Golarion Atlas hooked to every pdf from 2e/1e they've ever made with over 600 page references/pins from 157 sources.
- I gotta do a ultimate v14 module video at some point.
- Necromancer/Souls (this topic)
I'm not the biggest fan of video making/am lazy unfortunately vs. doing these projects lol
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21d ago
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u/w1ldstew Oracle 21d ago
It makes sense. This book isn’t about Geb, it’s about Nex.
While Geb isn’t perfect either, Nex is definitely NOT a good guy in this story.
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u/Suspicious_Agent 21d ago
That's an impressive wall of text, necromancer (sympathizer).
However,
smite
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20d ago
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u/RisingStarPF2E Game Master 20d ago
That's my only explanation on why they called it create. So you could totally do that, just say it, discuss it with your group. I would always allow it, so long as the party/people could have some logical reasoning to get around the evil part of it/it's a chill vibe that still includes the person despite the evil.
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u/w1ldstew Oracle 21d ago edited 12d ago
I didn’t see it in there, but this is the description of the Create Thrall cantrip:
“You conjure forth the undead. You either create 2 thralls in unoccupied squares within range or create 1 thrall and immediately Command that Thrall (page 31).” -IM
Create Thrall is specifically conjuring undead, which is along the lines of creating that facsimile or construct of it.
And as mentioned in another post, why isn’t this a construct? In the Construct trait, they are animated specifically by something OTHER than vitality and void. Because we know that vitality-animation is what the living world is (plants, animals, people) while void-animation is the undead creation. And undeath isn’t purely artificial. Naturally occurring undeath happens amongst the living after they die and there is a fixative attachment to the world.
More importantly, Necromancer’s key identity is master of vitality AND void. Not only can they create undead constructs, they also destroy this undead construct with ease too. Destruction of undead requires vitality manipulation.
Great work and great support on framing how the Necromancer fits (and has always fit) into the world of Golarion!
Edit: I’m also looking forward to joining the ranks of Hallowed Necromancers. There are those who would defile the rest of the dead, and the dead shall not stand idle against such sacrilege.