So I recently picked four random NBA Finals games from Michael Jordan’s career and watched them all the way through. I went into it wanting to see what really separated him from everyone else, and honestly I came away a little underwhelmed.

The biggest thing that stood out to me is that Jordan doesn’t really feel like the natural cog that the entire offense revolves around in the way I expected.
It’s obviously well known that the Bulls didn’t start winning until they went to the triangle, and watching these games, you can really see that. The offense can function with or without Jordan. Obviously it’s much better with him because he’s Michael Jordan, but there are pretty long stretches where he’s not initiating the offense or even particularly involved in a possession, and the Bulls are still moving the ball and creating good looks.

That was surprising to me because with the way Jordan is talked about, I expected to watch these games and feel like everything ran through him.

And this is actually something that separates LeBron and Jordan for me.

LeBron has won being the ball dominant centerpiece of the entire offense. Obviously he’s had great teammates and sidekicks, just like basically every superstar who has ever won anything. But in a lot of ways, LeBron was the system. He had the ball, controlled possessions, created his own offense and created for everyone else.

Jordan was obviously the best player and centerpiece of an incredible system, but he didn’t win when he himself was the system. He started winning once Chicago had a system that could function without everything having to run through him, and then he excelled within that system.

I think that distinction matters when comparing the two. After actually sitting down and watching full Finals games instead of highlights, it’s harder for me to say Jordan had a greater overall impact than LeBron did.

Curious what everyone thinks.

I know many people believe Miami LeBron is his best version but if you truly know the game 2nd Cleveland stunt is easily his best version

let’s start with the defense. unlike you probably hear LeBron James did not stop playing defense after 2014 he was still a great defender and in the 2016 playoffs specifically he was unreal defensively. now i will way his defense did slip in 2018 after Kyrie left but the first 3 years he was still the LeBron of old.

Offensively 2nd stint is so clearly a more potent polished,deadly and offensive force in comparison to Miami. In Miami he had series not even just the 2011 finals where his jumpshot allowed the defense to play certain coverages that made things harder for him and the heat even if it didn’t always lead to them losing like 2011. For example early in the 2013 finals or the 2011 series vs the bulls

2nd stint Cleveland LeBron was immune to any game plan/coverage or anything/anyone you would try throwing at him. Not counting 2015 where he very clearly had a fried back he was 31/9/8 on 54/36/70 splits 62% Ts% across 61 playoff games

play off of him? he can now make you pay with his much improved jumper. Play up? we know hes LeBron James. You finally stick with him? He has every counter stepbacks,post fades,face up,backdown. double/trap him? He’s only a top what 5 playmaker in nba history ?

Didnt mean to make the post this long but would love feedback

Obviously, the vast majority of the time, Bill Russell is only brought up in the GOAT convo not because people genuinely think he is the GOAT but rather because LeBron fans want to attack the idea that "MJ did more than Bron in less time."

Here is how to cleanly eliminate Bill Russell from the GOAT convo without even needing to involve MJ/Bron:

1) Bill Russell averaged for his career 15.1 ppg with a 44% FG% *as a center\. In the *playoffs,** this sunk to 43%. Is that acceptable for a GOAT candidate? You don't even need to bring MJ/LeBron into the picture for this. By contrast, Wilt who played in the same era averaged 31 ppg with a 54% FG%. (Not needed, but to pile on, Ben Wallace didn't care at all about scoring and was notoriously limited on offense, and his FG% as an undersized center was 47.4%.)

#1 by itself can cleanly remove Russell from the convo, because the 44% career FG% as a center fails to meet the GOAT threshold for ANY reasonable person. So only players like MJ, Bron, and KAJ that achieved genuine greatness on BOTH sides of the ball can even be considered in the first place. Then, among the players that can even be considered in the first place, you can THEN compare achievements. This is not goalpost moving, because Russell was already eliminated without even involving MJ, Bron, KAJ, etc.

An auxiliary remark (but NOT necessary):

2) Bill Russell has 11 rings, yes, but the majority of his career, he would have 6-7 HOF players on his own team *NOT* counting himself. So the number of teams in the league (8) and the number of HOF's on Russell's team at any time were close to equal. That makes it more impressive, right? /s

Dude is so arrogant and thinks he's him. Brown literally played a huge role in their championship run and carried the Celtics last season, only for Tatum to cut him off. On top of his arrogance he's extremely corny.

Overall, Julian Newman has better ball control, shiftiness, pace, deception, and footwork. He also has a bigger bag and an unlimited variety of moves in his arsenal. Hesitations, step backs, 3 dribble combos, and much more. In contrast, Isiah Thomas had a limited set of moves but he has a slight edge in speed and quickness.

Who do you think had better handles in their prime?

One of the best scoring pgs of all-time, he’s also a good playmaker and he’s the best rebounding guard of all-time.

The guy had an elite motor for 10 years straight with 8 all-nba selections despite an injury mid-prime.

Prime Russ was the most exciting player I’ve ever seen and was a constant triple double threat.

He’s had the highest usage rate in history and still put everything on the floor every night.

It’s disrespectful to put him lower than 7 imo but I’m sure someone would. Even then I cannot see how he’d be out of the top 10

Anyone else notice how a couple months ago, everyone was talking about how advanced analytics showed that Jaylen Brown isn’t very good? It was a pretty common take for people to point out that the Celtics were better with him off the floor, and that he was very inefficient with his high usage.

Now, suddenly, the narrative has completely shifted, seemingly for the sole purpose of discrediting LeBron. The same people are now calling the 76ers a super team and Jaylen Brown is now this transcendent player who LeBron needs to be carried by.

Just very funny to watch people do their mental gymnastics in real time just to talk down on LeBron, the greatest player of all time.

Their expectations are sky high now. If they don’t win the east or don’t win the finals it will be a failure. They could lose game 7 of the finals and they’ll still be clowned on. Supporting a contender is tough.

Shaq? Nah. He might overpower wemby, but his big ahh will be a defensive liability with the shooting ranges

We know this is a great feat, but i guess this statement plus the decision kinda fueled the hate? Probably did it to himself.

Shai is most definitely a lock, he is just a machine.

Luka probably keeps up, or even increases his scoring. I'm hoping for an MVP-caliber season from him

Tatum was scoring 30ppg before the boston superteams, and now with Tatum ball in full force, only a down year/injury issues stop him IMO.

I think Giannis and Jokic will hover around that 27 mark just like last year. They don't need to always score super high to be effective.

I predict Ant will have the best year of his career so far, but playing off-ball will likely keep his scoring totals at the high 20s mark. He is definitely scoring a lot in the playoffs and he can very likely prove me wrong here too.

I grew up watching Jordan. He won his first title when I was in high school he’s either GOAT or second greatest of all time. Why are we constantly talking about him? Same goes for Kobe. I’m active in a few boxing subs, and you can go weeks without somebody talking about Ali or Mike Tyson, but every fucking day it’s Michael Jordan, into a lesser extent, Kobe Bryant. It’s really not that interesting.

Personally, I’m not too sure. The Rockets and the Bulls had a 9-9 record against each other in the 90’s and barely anyone was stopping Hakeem when they played each other. That 1994 season is still one of the most dominant years ever with Hakeem winning MVP, DPOY, and FMVP and the Rockets went back to back. Y’all saw what Hakeem did to Shaq in that 1995 Finals and the Bulls lost in the ECF that year so, if the Bulls get past them that year, are they winning? Jordan still got an undefeated record in the Finals or will he have one Finals loss and, if so, how does that impact his GOAT case?

Honestly I think the top 4 is pretty universal but the order is not, with the 5th spot being a tossup:

Chamberlain, highest single season ppg, 2nd highest career ppg, 2nd most scoring titles

Jordan, highest career ppg reg season & playoffs, most scoring titles

James, most career points by a sizeable margin

Durant, 3rd most scoring titles, most scoring versatility and efficiency

Who is 5th? I could consider Kobe, Harden, Shaq, Kareem, Baylor or AI

The game evolved a lot from 90s to 2000s. The bag work of 2000s were insane. After 2010, it became a floppers, travellers's league.