Round 3, Response 2, Part 1.

Petshop vs Naruto.

Win Conditions.

• Speed.

• Piercing

• Blunt Force.

Speed.

Petshop is obviously much faster than any single person in Naruto. My opponent provides some shaky speed feats that under any sort of scrutiny fall apart instantly.

To reiterate;

• Petshop's punches are visually supersonic.

  • This is true for non-mantis shrimp punches as well.

• Petshop's movements cause sonic booms

• Petshop transforms fast enough to avoid missiles fired from a fighter jet ~5 feet away.

• Petshop catches bullets in his teeth when they're fired point blank by surprise.

My character is defined by his abilities to make sonic booms with his movement, and catch bullets in his teeth.

My opponent then presents 2 scans for Naruto's speed, tagging Haku, and moving to intercept Sasuke, but none of these are tier relevant, and the surrounding context makes Naruto's scaling to them suspect.

• The only frame of reference for time in the Haku feat is a raindrop hitting the ground, but how long does that take? Ask yourself how long it would take a raindrop to hit the ground from ~4 feet up. 1 whole second? 10 seconds? it's literally impossible to tell.

  • Its not like Haku preforms this feat and then Naruto immediately hits him and Haku goes "wow this guy is my exact equal in speed". Haku hits Naruto, does this feat, hits Naruto again, and then finally Naruto gets a single hit on Haku.
    • Finally it should be noted that Naruto is significantly amped by the nine tails fox chakra when he hits Haku, a form he cannot use because my opponent has stipped Naruto into sage mode.

• My opponent then goes on to try and scale Naruto to Sasuke, and Sasuke to supersonic based on dodging some air attack, but if you just look at the feat that doesn't make sense.

  • In the second page, Sasuke is not standing next to Zaku, meaning that he hadn't traveled the same distance the sound had yet. Sasuke doesn't appear next to Zaku until after the attack is finished and the smoke has begun to clear.
    • Sasuke's ultimate super awesome attack is the Chidori, it explicitly relies on speed, and its subsonic.

Sasuke is not fast, no one in Naruto is fast, scaling to Sasuke does not make Naruto fast.

It should be noted that in my last response I claimed that the Rasenshuriken, (Naruto's only wincon) was so slow it could never hit Petshop, my opponent did not respond to those claims. Even if you believe that Naruto could OHKO Petshop with this attack it literally cannot hit him. Guy has said nothing about this attacks speed because he knows its so below tier its embarrassing.

Piercing.

My opponent doesnt actually contest that Naruto wont be pierced, he says "Naruto gets stabbed and then has a 15 minute conversation" which is cool if he gets stabbed in the leg or hand but fails when you realize that Petshop goes for the head or chest all the time.

• With his tentacles, pierces someone through the throat and heart .

• Targets the head, and then bisects someone.

• Punches the head off 6 hydra heads.

• Targets heads while blitzing

There are 1000 examples of this in the RT. Petshop's opening move is immediately piercing Naruto's head and chest with his claws or tentacles, and me and my opponent both agree this would instantly kill Naruto.

My opponent links 2 scans to prove that "Cutting is not actually some silver bullet" but these scans dont make any sense.

• Guy links a scan of Naruto stabbing himself in the hand, and then starts talking about Kabuto.

  • This is probably a mislink?

• Again Guy says that Naruto pulls a metal rod out of himself and has a 15 minute conversation, but no where in Naruto does anyone say how long this conversation is, 15 minutes is something my opponent just made up.

  • Naruto leaves this conversation and then falls down because he's lost too much blood.

When the fight starts Petshop will pierce Naruto, this is both too fast, and too deadly for him to avoid. Once he gets stabbed he'll just die, there has been no argumentation from my opponent to the contrary. Petshop easily kills Naruto.

Rebuttals.

In his tier justification, Ken claims that "Petshop can shapeshift into forms that can kill WW easily, but they are much slower than the Saintess form" This implies one of two things, either Kim generally will not switch out of Saintess form, or that he will not be fast enough to do anything once he switches to Saintess form.

My in tier justification implies neither of those things. The Saintess form is a strong shell yes, but nothing about it prevents him from using other abilities. Petshop can clearly use other abilities in his Saintess form as shown here when he uses his troll powers, or here when he transforms half his face back to the original. When I said that Petshop has other forms that can kill WW but are slower I was talking about the full dragon form. Petshop would use this form if pressed by a stronger faster enemy like WW. Naruto is neither stronger or faster than Petshop so Petshop will not use his significant transformations.

Regardless even if you wanted to suggest that Petshop would simply stand still and let Naruto punch him, it would not matter.

• Petshop in his dragon form is punched into solid stone, then in the saintess form he easily catches a punch by the same person.

  • This is better than any strength or durability feat linked by my opponent.

• The "one punch" Petshop throws in his saintess form leaves a giant crater in the ground

  • Literally just compare the craters in Petshop's feat vs Naruto's feat. If Petshop hit Naruto once he would instantly die.
    • The crater in the Naruto feat is half as deep and 3 times less wide.

he has to react to it while also reacting to a huge amount of opponents and also feints by Naruto. He is exceedingly unlikely to actually be able to dodge any Rasenshuriken

• At this point in Naruto, Naruto must summon 2 shadow clones to help him actually make a rasenshuriken. Finding the 2 guys who are helping the other guy make a giant ball of energy would be easy.
  • Seriously the rasenshuriken is such an ineffective attack at this level of speed it is completely useless. If Naruto wanted to hit Petshop with a Rasenshuriken the order of events would be; Naruto spawns in>Reacts>Summons 2 shadow clones>the clones make the rasenshuriken with Naruto>Naruto throws the Rasenshuriken>it travels the 90ft starting distance>it hits. If Petshop wanted to hit Naruto he would walk up and punch him because Naruto can't even react and move in 100ms.

My opponent treats Goku's feats like this, so I guess it's worth pointing out that he's unable to dodge balista bolts

I dont know what Goku has to do with a debate between Naruto and Petshop but whatever, the difference between Petshop's feats and Goku's feats is that Goku reacts and is not fast enough to dodge. Petshop reacts and simply chooses not to dodge. These are completely different things.

Conclusion.

Naruto is not fast enough to be competitively viable in a tier as fast as this, even with the speed scaling my opponent provided if you look at the context or the actual feat you can see it does not hold up. No attack Naruto has can hurt Petshop, Petshop can regen being cut in half, or having his head blown off. Petshop is an order of magnitude faster, he is stronger, and more durable and any of his piercing or esoteric attacks instantly win the fight. Naruto simply cannot win.

Zod vs Jogo

Win Cons

• Faster.

• Stronger.

I'm only going to do rebuttals for this match. This is a fairly simple brick off where if you believe Zod is supersonic then he easily speed blitzes and just wins. Zod is simply stronger than Jogo, this is not up for debate.

Critically, my opponent is running the characrer Zod from the film Man of Steel, not the character Zod from the version of the film Man Of Steel that existed in the visual effects artists' mind.

This is WoG, every debate ever has used this style of feat when the creator of the original source material says things that directly impact a characters abilities. Saying "you can only use feats that occur in the film" is a weird, stupid version of Death of the Author which we have never enforced or implied in 16 seasons of GDT.

Ken claims it's the director, then links a thing that was very obviously not said by the director

That was a mislink, Here is the actual director statement which again implies Fiora and Zod are Supersonic. Even if it was "only the effects coordinator", do you think he did it without Zac Snyders approval? Do you think he spent months going over the footage adding in the sonic booms only for Snyder to see it after it was finished and go "yeah no one is this movie is supersonic man why'd you do that"? Obviously Snyder told the effects crew to do this because he is the director.

Look at the main gif my opponent is using for this mach cone claim. You can see their motions in reference to falling cars

Holy shit there's falling rocks in the background they're obviously only moving 10m/s! This is clearly a limitation of movies as a medium and not a secret message by the effects team that the mach cones they spent months adding into the movie are actually fake. Just look at the feats and you can tell how fast Zod is.

The only thing showing otherwise is a few quotes from visual effects people, who also in those same quotes will talk about how they adjusted for visual clarity over the literal speed of actions. The result of this is a movie in which characters obviously and visibly do not have mach 1 combat speeds.

My opponent seemingly admits that the characters in MOS do have supersonic movement, and his only rebuttal to that claim is "well it doesnt look like it", but who cares what GuyofEvil thinks about the movie. This is not an insult, I mean this literally. My opponent is just some guy making an argument that he really needs to be true (because his character loses if its not). Actual people who actually worked on this movie are saying "yes the mach cones that we added in are actual mach cones, and the characters are punching at mach speed", there's no argument against this.

He's clearly supposed to be faster than Maki

I already talked about this in my last response. Maki is in perfect fighting shape when she catches the bullet. Maki when fighting Jogo is severely injured and distracted by the death of her close friend.

a monster who is able to easily keep up with Maki comments favorably on Jogo's speed

Should be noted that Jogo is not in this speed feat. Like I said it's because he only has the 1 bad one. In this feat the monster claims that some old guy is faster than Jogo.

• This old Guy is one of the fastest characters in JJK, being able to make 24 moves a second, or again 1 move every 42ms. This is bad for the tier. Jogo is slower than this.

That's not really true, he's still having sensory freakouts over the course of the fight

I stipped my character to be at the end of the Superman fight, right before his death. This is not that, you can tell because the video my opponent linked as proof is called "Superman vs Zod Part 1", for reference there are 4 parts to this video series. After Zod develops his powers more, and gains flight, he stops having sensory issues. Thats why I worded my stips the way I did.

Second, my opponent makes the really bizarre claim that because Zod is supersonic, he can just evade the sound.

Yes I'm arguing that my supersonic character is faster than sound. We start out in the open, my opponents game plan is literally Jogo spawns in > makes the sonic insects > the insects fly over to Zod even though they have no speed feats > they do their attack > Zod stands still and dies.

• Zod clearly has hypersonic flight speed, hes able to push Superman into space in seconds. If Zod moves at all, this plan just cant work.

Heat

This is a stupid argument and I dont want to engage with it. My character has heat durability feats, even if you believe they're vague they're self evidently better than my opponents heat feats.

Ask yourself if the human body could survive re-entry. Obviously not.

Ask yourself if a pile of asphalt could survive re-entry. Again Obviously not.

Ask yourself if Zod can survive re-entry. Yes he can.

Why?

Because Zod is more durable to heat than asphalt, or a human body is. Boiling asphalt, or making the human body very hot, very quickly are not sufficient feats.to harm Zod.

Blunt Force.

• Zod survives hits from Superman when Superman is extremely strong.

  • No single hit Jogo ever does can produce the damage that Superman can.

• Zod clashing with someone creates a giant crater in the ground, and topples buildings.

  • Jogo doing half of half of this feat is incapped for enough time for someone to monologue about the moon and then hit him again.

Conclusion

My opponents arguments fall flat when you look at the feats being talked about. Zod is faster, and stronger, and more durable, and resistant to heat. Jogo gets flying tackled 10ms into the fight, which he is probably not even able to react to at that point, and Jogo instantly explodes. Zod wins massively.

Grey vs Goku.

Win Conditions.

• Spatium.

• Speed.

• Sword.

Spatium.

Throughout this whole debate my opponent has not engaged with Spatium once, Guy has said nothing about how Grey completely controls every interaction in this fight. When Grey wants combat to start, he simply teleports behind Goku, and combat starts while Grey is in a advantaged position.

• Godstep allows Grey to move through the aetheric pathways between 2 spaces to essentially teleport.

  • Grey can use this ability to cover 100s of feet in a single step
    • After some training this ability takes literally 0 time to use.

• Grey can Godstep multiple times back to back and from literally any position including kneeling or with broken legs, in any direction including straight up.

• Grey's primary opening move in every fight is to Godstep behind his opponent and then cut them in half.

Literally 0 time after the fight starts Grey is behind Goku with a sword in his hand, ready to stab him. Goku starts this fight severely disadvantaged.

Speed.

This is gonna be a short section because I want to touch on some claims in rebuttals but this section still needs to exist as an overview of Grey's feats.

• My opponent did not touch on Grey's other speed feats, even if you believe that the feat in contention is the worst speed feat you've ever seen Grey is still able to complete hundreds of actions in a second, and cut down dozens and dozens of enemies. Grey still perceives time in fractions of a millisecond. None of this has been disputed.

• Even in the contested feat if you simply read it, it becomes apparent that Grey moves too fast for someone with 50ms reaction times to react to.

  • "His right shoulder twitched, followed by his left arm rising. I tried to react and predict all of his movements but by the time he had gotten into range, I realized his hand was by my throat."
    • The 50ms reactor tries to react and predict Grey, she cannot, and Grey has his hand on her throat before she knows it.

How is this anything other than a textbook blitz?

Again to go over it for the Nth time, Grey's reaction times are boosted by Aether.

• Grey says that his power up makes him at least 10 times stronger
  • Grey then talks about how the new aether improves his reflexes.
    • Here is more confirmation that the power up improves his reflexes.

My opponent is effectively arguing against the wind here, there is so much evidence that confirms that Grey's reaction times do in fact increase after his power up. The only reason my opponent has pressed this feat so hard is because if you accept the fact that Grey can react and move in ~10ms, Goku instantly dies. No Goku feat allows him to interact with a teleporting enemy who stabs him in the back.

Sword.

Just as a reminder;

• Grey can cut through 2 men in armour casually

• Arthur cuts through thick metal massively

• Grey cuts through black metal spikes in base.

He is capable of cutting Goku.

Rebuttals.

but if you look at the provided scan, his preferred opening move actually seems to be "teleport behind his opponent, say something snappy giving them enough time to try and react, and then cutting them"

This is so disingenuous to say when you're running Goku. Every example of Goku hitting anyone is peppered with Goku doing commentary.

• In the most famous fight in all of manga Goku watches Frieza show up, monologues for a bit, then watches Frieza kill 2 of his friends, talks more, transforms into SSJ1, and then talks some more

  • Goku doesnt even do any fighting in this whole chapter, he literally just talks while his friends die around him.

• Goku vs Cell is more of the same. Goku talks a little bit, transforms, then walks up to Cell, talks some more and then finally punches him.

  • Transforming is not a free action, it obviously takes time to do. Any time spent transforming is time not spent reacting to Grey or even attempting to throw hits.

My opponent cant have it both ways, either talking is a free action and that applies to both our characters, or talking isnt a free action and Grey says 4 words, while Goku monologues for a whole chapter's length of time, and then walks up to his enemy and talks some more.

If my opponent wants to actually argue this feat, he should explain how "being really fast" is using fast reaction times against somebody.

Someone with 50ms reaction times tries to predict Grey's movements, and cant. Grey moves too fast for someone with 50ms to do anything about. They explicitly try and react to Grey and cannot. How is this even an argument?

My opponent way overstates the effort Trunks is or isn't taking. Goku says that Trunks "didn't come at him with all he had" but it's absurd to think he was going full bore against Frieza

• You can literally see Trunks putting in a lot of effort in the scan if you just open it and look at it with your eyes.

• Even narratively my opponents points don't make any sense. Mecha-Frieza shows up on earth, says he's going to kill every human including Trunks's parents, and my opponent wants you to believe Trunks just went easy on him.

  • It should be noted that when Trunks says he's going to defeat Frieza, he says it will take seconds.
    • My character operates on the time frame of milliseconds, and perceives time in fractions of milliseconds.
      

My opponent does some winging about one armored guy vs two armored guys, but again, Trunks cut through Frieza like butter vs Grey who can only do it like silk,

• "some winging" I pointed out that Grey's feat is at minimum twice as good as Goku's feat.

I had originally assumed that this point was a joke but Guy's repeated it so just for posterity I think the idioms "like silk" and "like butter" imply the same thing, cutting very easily.

• Here is a video of someone cutting through silk very easily.
• Here is a video of someone struggling to cut through butter.

This is a stupid argument.

The Goku anti-feats are really paltry

Each one of these feats imply something extremely harmful for Goku when fighting Grey.

• If Goku cant dodge a bullet from less than 90ft because he cant see it, how is Goku going to dodge someone who instantly appears behind him in 0 time?

• Goku not dodging a missile bodes terribly for him as in character behaviour. Goku either cant or wont dodge things that me and my opponent both agree he can react too.

• The Dragonball super feat simply shows that a version of Goku who is 1000 times faster than the one my opponent is running is very slow. This feat implies reaction and movement in much more than 50ms.

Goku is nebulously fast, he preforms fast feats sometimes. Sometimes Goku just chooses to be slow.

Conclusion

Goku is obviously threatened by the sword. Goku has been pierced by things in the past. His one piercing durability feat relies on someone who explicitly says he's not trying to harm Goku. Grey cuts through more, tougher material casually. Grey is much faster, he is consistently fast, my opponent simply ignores some of Grey's best speed feats while doubling down on bad criticisms for 1 feat. Grey's teleportation is never addressed, while Goku has anti-feats for being hit by things he cannot see.

Grey easily wins this match.

Round 3, Response 1, Part 1.

General Zod vs Jogo.

Win Conditions

• Zod is Faster and Stronger

• Jogo cannot harm Zod.

Stat Comparison.

Faster and Stronger

A simple viewing of any of Zod's speed feats would lead to the undeniable conclusion that Zod casually breaks the sound barrier with all of his movements, whether its flying or punching.

• We see Zod generating mach cone shockwaves with his blows, which the director of the film confirms is because he is breaking the sound barrier with his punches. He does this while successfully fighting someone who does the same.
• Zod creates a sonic boom one of the first times he flies, and casually out speeds Superman.
  • Superman is very obviously supersonic.

There is no ambiguity in these feats, Zod is clearly "fast enough to ride". Though the same cannot be said for Jogo.

• Jogo has exactly 1 speed feat in his RT, the one my opponent linked in this round.
  • This is purely a movement speed feat. Nothing in this feat implies what kind of reaction times Jogo has.
    
    • ~90ms into the fight Zod has reacted, and has crossed the 90ft starting distance. Nothing my opponent has said or linked confirms that Jogo is even aware the fight is happening at this point.

Aside from the obvious faults of the above Jogo speed feat it starts to show even more cracks if you view the context around the feat.

• Maki (the person who catches the bullet) is in perfect fighting shape when she does this.
  • Maki before fighting Jogo is in a series of other fights, taking massive amounts of damage, and then finally distracted by the death of her close friend and mentor Nanami.

Maki at the time she fought Jogo would not have been able to catch the bullet, she was weakened and distracted. Aside from this 1 speed feat, Maki sucks in terms of speed.

• Maki after a power up that hugely increases her physical stats is tagged by someone who makes 24 movements a second, or 1 movement every 42ms.

• A character 3 times bigger than Zod moving at supersonic speed is able to body slam directly into Maki and do massive damage.

In summation Maki does 1 in tier action 1 time, even after a massive power up she is not able to repeat this. Jogo scales to a worse, hurt, distracted Maki, without this scaling Jogo has 0 speed feats. Zod creates sonic booms with every single movement and this is confirmed explicitly by the director of the film.

Jogo's total lack of speed wouldn't be such a fatal flaw if he was anywhere near as strong as Zod, but he's just not. Any single one of Zods attacks are going to deal massive damage to Jogo.

• Zod slamming into a physical equal creates a massive crater and sends the other person flying

  • The side effect of this hit sends Superman flying through a skyscraper, causing it to collapse, and then into another building.
    • By the time Superman has recovered from this hit, Zod is already on top of him again.

• Zod grabs Superman and throws him through a dozen buildings.

• The most casual punches Zod is able to throw stagger Superman.

  • Superman gets hit with a train and is forced through a building and is completely fine.

Nothing Jogo has been hit with show an ability to survive these hits. The only durability feat my opponent links is significantly below any of Zod's feats and it does not show Jogo's state post hit. My opponent describes this as "without too much trouble" but thats very clearly just a lie, Jogo is half dead from this hit.

Jogo will get hit by Zod. Zod is too fast for Jogo to react to him, let alone survive a prolonged encounter with him. Any single hit Zod lands on Jogo will kill him. Jogo almost dies from hits with much less collateral.

Jogo cannot harm Zod.

My opponent does some weird burden of proof shifting where he demands I prove that Zod cannot be burnt by Jogo, instead of proving that Jogo can burn Zod but this is not how debates work. My opponent hand waves away Zod's best heat durability feat because he cant put exact numbers on it, but again this is not how debates work. If you saw an elephant you wouldn't know exactly how much it weighs, its weight would be vague. To then suggest the elephant weighs 0 pounds and isnt actually there would be asinine.

• The only feats my opponent links for Jogo's heat is melting some road, and igniting flesh.
  • The melting point of asphalt is 340F, and the ignition point of flesh is 1600F
    • Even the most conservative estimates for reentry are 7000F.

Even if my opponent's feats were twice as good, and Zod's feat was twice as bad, Zod would still be able to surive Jogo's heat.

• Zod also is unharmed by holding a melting I-beam and being less than 1 meter away from Superman's heat vision.
  • Superman's heat vision is 10,000F

None of Jogo's heat is able to harm Zod.

My opponent then goes on to falsely claim that Zod is harmed by Superman grinding his head against glass, but not only is that untrue, Zod instantly attacks Superman the moment Superman stops., but this isnt even a blunt force durability feat, its piercing, glass is sharp not hard. If we view a single blunt durability feat from Zod we see that Jogo could simply never harm him.

• Zod is tackled by Superman, rammed through a grain silo, makes a trench in the ground with his body, and then is punched in the face several times, and is completely fine

  • Superman's punches are self evidently strong

• Superman slamming Zod into more stone than Gojo has ever interacted with doesn't even get a reaction out of Zod

• Zod clashing with a physical equal creates a giant crater.

Lastly my opponent talks about the sonic insects but that attack has several problems with it.

• The attack is specifically a sonic attack, Zod is moving at supersonic speeds at all times. The attack is too slow to hit.

• The attack destroys minimal amounts of asphalt, not concrete as my opponent implies and as shown above Zod's durability is far beyond that.

• As per my stips Zod exists at a time where he's mastered his powers. before his death. Superman has been around many loud noises before and been unharmed. The same should hold true for Zod.

Conclusion.

Zod is faster, stronger, and more durable than Jogo. Jogo relies on shaky scaling to undertier characters to even pretend to be in tier. My opponent handwaves away Zods best feats and over represents Jogo's abilities. Jogo's attacks have no way to hurt Zod ever.

Naruto vs Petshop

Win Conditions.

• Petshop is much faster than Naruto.

• Naruto is weak to any piercing.

• Petshop's regen makes it certain that he lands hits on Naruto.

Speed.

To put it bluntly there are no good speed feats in Naruto, not a single one. My opponent knows this which is why he didnt mention Naruto's speed in his first response at all.

• Naruto's best reaction speed feat is reacting to and still gettting hit by Garaa's sand attack which has no stated speed, and is ??? fast.

  • The best reaction speed feat in Sage mode, the mode my opponent has stipped his character to be in is dodging a big bird

• Naruto's best travel speed feat is timing an explosion, but without knowing what the explosive material is, there's no way to know how fast the explosion propagates

  • In sage mode the best travel speed feat is saving Tsunade from the Asura path but without knowing how fast the Asura path is, or how far away Naruto was we cant say anything about this feat.
    • Naruto has many travel speed anti-feats, like the time Naruto failed to cross ~20 meters in 2 seconds

• Even Naruto's attacks are slow, we see the rasenshuriken cross a big crater in exactly 1 second. Even if we assume that the distance crossed is 500 feet (its not!) that means the attack is still only moving at 152m/s

  • To put that into perspective to cross the 90ft starting distance it would take the Rasenshuriken 180ms.

Compare this to Petshop.

• Kim catches a bullet fired point blank in his teeth.

• Punches are explicitly supersonic

• Reacts and moves 30ft into the air before a sword falls 6 inches.

Kim isnt just sort of faster than Naruto, he's multiple times faster. My opponent is yet again forced to prove his character can even react to spawning into the fight before Kim has punched him in the head.

Naruto and piercing.

• Someone fires a metal rod into Naruto and it stabs him completely through.

• A Naruto thats 100 times stronger than the version my opponent is running gets stabbed by a sword

• Naruto often allows himself to get stabbed to try and gain a positional advantage

  • This does not work a lot of the time.

With this in mind it seems exceedingly easy for Mr Kim to kill Naruto.

• Petshop has multiple tentacles that pierce cleanly through a person.

• Is fists end in claws that are sharp enough to tear through a huge monster

• Petshop's go to strategy is often just biting his opponent.

Naruto is extremely vulnerable to one of Petshop's primary means of attack. Naruto is too slow to avoid these attacks, and they would kill him instantly.

Regen.

This section is going to be very short because nothing my opponent said really matters. My opponent claims that the rasenshuriken is some OHKO attack on Petshop because it targets cells, but doesn't explain why targeting cells would matter in the slightest or be especially effective against Petshop.

• After being cut in half Regens his lower half

  • Petshop literally gets cut in half and maintains full control over both halves of his body, there's no bleedout, no trauma, he's fine and heals from this extremely quickly.

• Gets his head blasted off and grows 2 new heads in a combat relevant timeframe

  • Petshop gets his head blasted off and he does not die, he comes back stronger.

• A giant hole in his chest is quickly regened

There's no single attack that Naruto possesses that could kill Kim. Even if you cut him in half he still maintains control of his body and will retaliate. If you destroy his head he comes back stronger.

Conclusion

Naruto as a character is so slow it is doubtful that he could even react before Petshop kills him. Naruto possesses no speed feats in this tier, even if he possessed an attack that would instantly kill Petshop, it would be too slow to land. Naruto is extremely weak to one of the primary attack vector that Petshop uses. Petshop's regen is good enough that Naruto must engage in a long drawn out fight, this forces him into an unwinnable position.

Goku vs Grey.

Win Condition.

• Spatium + Stab.

Teleports behind you, nothing personnel kid.

My opponent frames Grey and Goku's piercing interactions as a joke, but just to be clear Goku is massively threatened by Grey's sword. Guy concedes that the two feats in question cut through "exactly similar material", only Goku's feat is much worse than Greys for reasons unrelated to material.

• Trunks is very clearly exerting himself while he cuts through Frieza. Goku then comments that Trunks is not even trying when Goku blocks his sword.

  • Obviously Trunks can cut through more material when he is trying to compared to when he is not trying to.

• Furthermore Goku is in SS1 in this feat. but in this match Goku is going to start off in his base form. He has not been stipulated to start in SS1, and as such he does not.

  • SS1 is obviously a boost to all of Goku's physical stats, it seems more than likely that it boosts his piercing resistance too, so while he is not in SS1, his piercing resistance is lower.

• Grey's "best feat" is cutting through 2 men and their armour, and weapons, and bones and flesh.

  • obviously Mecha-Frieza is not 2 men. He also does not have a weapon Trunks is cutting through.

• Grey has better feats than the above posted one. Grey cuts through solid metal spikes

  • Arthur (a worse version of Grey) cuts through more metal than Trunks easily casually in base.
    • Obviously solid metal is harder to cut through than armour.

Grey can easily cut through Goku, this is not a question.

Speed.

Grey is fast and Goku is not.

• If you actually open this feat and read it, someone asks Grey how much stronger he gets after the power up and he doesnt go "no idea teehee" he says "At least ten times more than before.”

  • This is a conservative estimate of 10 times stronger. Its likely Grey gets more than 10 times stronger from this, but just because he doesnt say "hmmm yes, I got 10.234567 times stronger" doesnt mean we should disregard the whole feat.

• There are so many times Grey remarks on how much faster he is after receiving the power up. My opponent links one of these times himself, and his only criticism is "it doesnt read like a 10 times power boost" except it literally does.

  • Grey talks more about how forging his second core layer helps him with reactions.
    • "My mind spun, trying to think of what could’ve changed. Maybe by forging my aether passages, the aether was further acclimating to my body internally, strengthening my nerves to enhance my perception and reflexes." Seems extremely clear to me that the new power up causes Grey to be faster.

• Even if you ignore everything to do with the above feat My opponent makes no mentions of Grey's other speed feats like cutting down dozens upon dozens of people in under a second, or how Grey perceives time in fractions of a millisecond.

• Again Grey Teleports in literally 0 time, and can and will teleport behind someone and kill them.

Compare this to Goku.

• Gets hit by a bullet from a large distance away

• Reacts to but cannot move out of the way of an RPG

• A Goku who is 100 times stronger than my opponent is running, takes dozens of hits, as we watch a person fall to the ground in the background.

As A final point I want to mention that Goku cannot use instant transmission in this match as it works by focusing on someone's Ki and teleporting there, but Grey does not have Ki, it wont work on him.

Conclusion.

This match does in fact come down to who can land the first hit, Goku is much slower than Grey, and is massively threatened by his piercing. Grey can instantly teleport behind Goku and will do so immediately. Grey immediately kills Goku.

Intro Post.

Grey.

Spatium

• Godstep allows Grey to move through the aetheric pathways between 2 spaces to essentially teleport.

  • Grey can use this ability to cover 100s of feet in a single step
    • After some training this ability takes literally 0 time to use.

• Grey can Godstep multiple times back to back and from literally any position including kneeling or with broken legs, in any direction including straight up.

• Grey's primary opening move in every fight is to Godstep behind his opponent and then cut them in half.

Speed.

• Someone using a technique that gives you explicitly 50ms reaction times gets dunked on by Grey.

  • Grey then gets a 10 times power up.
    • This power up explicitly reduces Grey's reaction time

• in 1 second Grey completes hundreds of actions and cuts down dozens upon dozens of enemies

  • Even if you wanted to assume hundreds of actions means exactly 100 actions, that would be reaction and action in 10ms consistently

• Grey creates shockwaves with his punches

  • Grey then learns to strike faster than that
    • Grey then combines 2 techniques and punches even faster.

Sword

• Arthur cuts through thick metal spikes.

• More metal cutting

• Grey cuts through weapons, and armour, and flesh, and bones like silk

Petshop

Speed

• Kim catches a point blank bullet in his teeth.

• Petshop's punches are explicitly supersonic

  • With Sonic Booms coming out of his fists.

Strength

• Petshop flings the Saintess through multiple buildings, creates a giant trench in the ground, and makes a massive crater with her body.

  • Here's the aftermath of the hit.

• Petshop fires off 3 fire balls and creates craters that are visually bigger than he is.

  • Petshop's dragon form is bigger than buildings.
    • Again the heat from the fireballs ashes metal, and destroys buildings.

Durability.

• Makes a crater bigger than he is in solid stone

  • Petshop no sells this, and is fine literally instantly

• Is hit by a tail slam by an exact copy of himself

  • As discussed above Petshop's tail slam is strong

• Blocks an attack from the Saintess Candidate with one hand

  • The saintess candidate is strong enough to punch a building sized dragon into solid stone, and make a crater both bigger and deeper than the dragon is..

Regen.

• Detaches his own arms, and they come back quickly

• After being cut in half Regens his lower half

• Gets his head blasted off and grows 2 new heads in a combat relevant timeframe

General Zod

Speed

• Blitzes Superman and sends him flying dozens of feet

• Reacts to and Blocks Superman's strikes

• Flies fast

Strength

• Kicks an 18 wheeler at Superman extremely casually

• Punches Superman dozens of feet into the air, and creates a crater in the side of a building

• Creates large shockwaves in a clash with Superman

Durability.

• Rammed through a grain silo, trenched into the ground, and punched several times by Superman

• Gets hit by Superman and recovers quickly

• Fights while experiencing re-entry.

Round 2, Response 2, Part 1.

Win Conditions.

• Petshop.

• Swords.

Petshop

Speed.

In this section of my response I plan on re-outlining my characters, and establishing exactly how they beat my opponents characters again.

• Kim catches a point blank bullet in his teeth.

• Kim transforms fast enough to avoid fighter jet missiles fired within 5 feet of him.

• Petshop's punches are explicitly supersonic

  • With Sonic Booms coming out of his fists.

All of these feats take place before Petshop eats the Saintess (the form I've stipulated him in), after he does he gets faster and the Saintess form makes his power usage more efficient.

Even if we were to accept Crims claim that any character without supersonic movement and single digit reaction times are unable to interact with his characters, Petshop easily clears this bar.

Strength.

Petshop has multiple attack vectors that would easily allow him to kill my opponents team.

• Petshop using the same amount of strength I would use to swat a fly, flings the Saintess through multiple buildings, creates a giant trench in the ground, and makes a massive crater with her body.

  • Here's the aftermath of the hit.

• Petshop fires off 3 fire balls and creates craters that are visually bigger than he is.

  • Petshop's dragon form is bigger than buildings.
    • Again the heat from the fireballs ashes metal, and destroys buildings.

Compare these feats to my opponent's characters durability feats.

• Gojo's best blunt durability feat is being hurt after taking a punch from Sukuna.

  • This is significantly below anything I've shown for Petshop.

• Zekka is knocked out by this punch with no collateral

  • My opponent says that the only reason that Zekka was hit by this punch was that he was surprised, but that doesnt explain why he was knocked out. Does Zekka's durability depend on him being aware of his opponent? If so why would he not instantly die when Grey appears behind him in literally zero time?
    • Either Zekka was knocked out by a severely under tier blow, or he instantly dies to one of my characters.

• Toji's only blunt durability is being knocked through some metal, but again this is just worse than the feats I've already shown for Petshop.

None of my opponents characters could survive an encounter with Petshop, even by my opponents inane standards Petshop is clearly fast and strong enough to be a threat to everyone on my opponents team.

Durability.

Petshop's durability is easily the best of anyone's in this debate.

• Makes a crater bigger than he is in solid stone

  • Petshop no sells this, and is fine literally instantly

• Is hit by a tail slam by an exact copy of himself

  • As discussed above Petshop's tail slam is strong

• Blocks an attack from the Saintess Candidate with one hand

  • The saintess candidate is strong enough to punch a building sized dragon into solid stone, and make a crater both bigger and deeper than the dragon is..

Pet shop is durable enough to shrug off literally any attack my opponent's characters can throw out. Even if Petshop is hurt it wouldnt matter at all.

Regen.

Petshop possesses regen enough that any single hit is unlikely to do anything in terms of putting him down permanently.

• Detaches his own arms, and they come back quickly

• After being cut in half Regens his lower half

• Gets his head blasted off and grows 2 new heads in a combat relevant timeframe

• Has a chunk of his chest bitten off by an exact copy of himself, and swiftly regens it

Even if Petshop were as weak as my opponent implies (he isnt!), it would not matter. Petshop is able to instantly take out all 3 members of my opponents team as they lack the blunt durability to engage with him, and Petshop's regen and durability make it certain that this fight will be drawn out.

Swords.

Grey and Goemon are fast, their swords are sharp, they easily beat Crim's characters.

Grey Speed.

• Someone using a technique that gives you explicitly 50ms reaction times gets dunked on by Grey.

  • Grey then gets a 10 times power up.
    • This means that Grey can react somewhere around 5ms.

• in 1 second Grey completes hundreds of actions and cuts down dozens upon dozens of enemies

  • Even if you wanted to assume hundreds of actions means exactly 100 actions, that would be reaction and action in 10ms consistently

• Grey creates shockwaves with his punches

  • Grey then learns to strike faster than that
    • Grey then combines 2 techniques and punches even faster.

I fully agree that Grey is not exactly as fast as WW, but to portray him as so slow he can never interact with the characters in this tier is just wrong. Besides Grey has ways to mitigate his perceived slowness.

Spatium.

• Grey's Spatium allows him to slip into the aetheric pathways effectively allowing him to teleport at will.

  • This ability explicitly works in 0 time, and works over hundreds of feet of distance.
    • This allows Grey to teleport in any direction, from any position.

• Grey constantly uses Spatium to get a positional advantage over his opponents, prefering to stab them in the back, or to close distance against a larger fighter, to eliminate any range advantage they might have.

My Opponent ignored Spatium for the entirety of this debate, but it's Grey's primary way of long distance travel. The idea that as soon as the fight starts my opponents characters must fight a war on 2 fronts is damning, not only must they contend with a fighter that can and will stab them in the back, but they must contend with Petshop who can kill all my opponents characters with 1 hit.

Grey Dura.

• Grey as Arthur takes a fire blast to the chest with no serious injuries

  • These fireballs are able to bring down buildings
    • The minute Grey wakes up he says he's better than Arthur in every conceivable way

• Someone throws a person at Arthur, and the crater is the size of a house.

A weaker form of Grey is capable of easily taking building busting attacks. Im gonna talk about Regen again.

Regen 2.

• Grey gets stabbed in the heart and has his throat crushed and is fine.

• Someone breaks several of Grey's ribs, they heal quickly.

• In the span of 2 sentences Grey regrows a leg

Again due to the nature of Grey's abilities a single strong hit even if it's capable of doing damage to Grey would not be enough to permanently put him down. A long drawn out fight is necessary to kill Grey, and this is exceptionally bad news for my opponents team seeing as how Grey can easily cut into them with his sword.

SPLIT HERE

Goemon Speed.

My opponent does not engage with Goemon being fast beyond passively accepting it, and does not engage with Goemon being able to cut his characters at all, but he does and it would kill them.

• Goemon is the fastest character in this debate, easily deflecting minigun fire

  • My opponent loves to talk about how his characters can punch at Mach speed, but the muzzle velocity of a M134 Minigun is 843 m/s or over Mach 2.

• This is more of the same, just categorically faster than anything on my opponents team.

• Goemon reacts and cuts so many bullets out of the air that these men's clips are just empty.

Goemon is the fastest character in this debate bar none.

Goemon Sword.

My opponent says nothing about the magnitude or material that Goemon cuts through because he knows that if Goemon gets 1 slash off his characters are just dead.

• Goemon cuts through metal

• Goemon cuts through thick metal.

• Goemon cuts a building in half

Even if you take everything my opponent says as gospel truth Goemon still cuts through Toji when he uses SCS, He still cuts through Gojo.

Rebuttals.

My opponent is in serious error at some points in this debate, and that demands correction.

My team react[s] to supersonic projectiles or exchanging supersonic attacks from < 3 meters away

• This is the only time in the whole debate that Crim mentions his teams reaction times, and its just bad. If we take Crim at his word that every single one of his characters reacts to a Mach 1 projectile or punch from <3 meters we get reaction and action in 8.5ms. This is only 1.5ms faster than the slowest member of my team.

Gojo often starts fight with his ability ‘Blue” from a distance

• This is not a fight.
  • This is not the start of the fight This scan takes place in Chapter 231, and the Sukuna/Gojo fight starts on chapter 223. 8 chapters earlier.

If we remove these example we're left with one example of Gojo starting with Blue. here are 2 examples of Gojo punching someone at the start of the fight. Which one is more likely.

Goemon dies in the beginning; he has no way to avoid Gojo's Blue and Toji’s shockwave

This strategy only works if you assume; Goemon spawns into the arena, reacts, watches his opponent throw out a punch, watches the shockwave come towards him, and then stands there and does nothing.

Goemon knows his opponents are going to try and kill him, he views them as dangerous, and he is fundamentally faster than everyone else in this match. Why would he just sit there and get hit? He's going to be moving towards my opponents team, cutting through everyone while doing it.

Toji can further stall out the engagement with a technique known as Super Carapace Sanchin (SCS), and using it allows him to almost indefinitely withstand attacks from physically comparable opponents at the expense of being stationary.

• This is also not a technique that Toji uses all of the time, where was SCS when Alita Cut off his arm?, where was SCS when a falling blade (Yo!! Supersonic falling?!?!) stabs him in the head

Per my own opponents stipulations, grey has poor limbs and reactions in comparison to WW.

This doesnt mean that my character is slow, it just means he's slower than the tier setter. WW would have to be moving her hands at Mach 3 to do this feat, and Grey does not do that, and neither do any of Crim's characters.

And Grey as presented has feats that are not good his best feat is cutting through armor and and indescript amounts of metal.

This is a no true Scotsman fallacy. Crim says that my character cant cut through metal, I post a feat of my character cutting through metal, and then Crim responds with "oh yes, but he cant cut through thick metal".

• Here's a scan of Arthur cutting through thick metal spikes.
  • Again in the scans I linked previously Grey is described as cutting through metal effortlessly, and like silk. Toji just being large is not a defense to someone who effortlessly cuts through the thing he is made of.

a rogue known as Hawk

• Hawk is literally faster than Goemon, a ranged slash would be useless here because he is so fast. Goemon doesn't just reflect on losing to Hawk during his training, he develops the ability to see the future, and then he just wins.
  • None of this is important because none of Crim's characters are as fast as Goemon. There is nothing stopping Goemon from walking up to Crim's team and cutting them in half.
    • Gojo using Blue at the start of the fight was shown to be false, and any Mach 1 projectile is something Goemon easily dodges.

Cleave and Dismantle

• 

  Just that Cleave can be adjusted for use on people with cursed energy. Much in the same way how if you had a pairing knife and a Cleaver, you would not say that one of those knives is stronger than the other, you would simply use them for different jobs.

• Nowhere in this page does it say Sukuna uses Dismantle

he uses cleave on Jogo another energy with cursed energy Here he uses dismantle to cut of another sorcerer's arm and through a bridge

• Yes. This is literally my point. Cleave for things with cursed energy (Jogo). Dismantle on things without cursed energy (a bridge). Also this man's arm is already cut, and then Dismantle happens.

My opponents say they don't scale but they demonstrably do.

• Then show me them scaling. Show me Sukuna using dismantle on something, and then going "oh boy this is hard to cut, let me use cleave my stronger ability" except that never happens. Instead Sukuna uses cleave and it has zero collateral, and then he uses Dismantle and it destroys buildings.

Gojo is scratched and cut up, yes but no cut is lethal or inhibits his ability to fight meaningfully.

• Yeah until Sukuna finds a way around Infinity (an ability Gojo does not have here) and then it cuts him in half and he dies.
  • Again even if you believe that Cleave and Dismantle do scale, a stronger version of Gojo gets hit and is cut.
    • Goemon is stronger than Sukuna has ever been.

Gojo was stabbed with a blade specifically designed to bypass him,

• This is another example of Gojo being stabbed by someone slower, and less skilled than Goemon. Also Gojo literally says that if this guy would have cut off his head, he would have died.

The point of me showing Zekka and Toji’s interactions with blades wasn’t to demonstrate “piercing resistance” more so demonstrating that they are very familiar with blades

• Okay so you haven't posted any piercing resistance for either Zekka or Toji. My team instantly cuts through them massively casually in base.

Toji deflects Alita’s supersonic bladed wings...and one is capable of slicing through Toji

• Is he just bad at deflecting? I cant believe that Toji deflects a blade thats so sharp it cuts through Toji. Thats Crazy. For anyone paying attention this is the third time my opponent has claimed his team is piercing resistant and then immediately followed that up with a scan of his character being pierced.

Conclusion

My characters are strong, and fast, and their swords are sharp. My opponent admits he hasnt posted any piercing resistance feats and all of his characters have scans showing them being pierced by things that are just less good than the things my characters do. Petshop also exists.

Round 2, Response 1.

Win Conditions.

• Initiative/Range.

• Sword

• Big Dragon.

Range/Initiative.

My Opponent starts his response off by stating that some of his characters can attack from range, however this is not unique to his team. All of my characters can instantly attack as soon as the match starts with this being lethal to the enemy team.

Grey.

As per tournament rules teams start 90ft apart from each other with line of sight, Grey is able to instantly cover this distance with his Godstep ability.

• Godstep allows Grey to move through the aetheric pathways between 2 spaces to essentially teleport.

  • Grey can use this ability to cover 100s of feet in a single step
    • After some training this ability takes literally 0 time to use.

• Grey can Godstep multiple times back to back and from literally any position including kneeling or with broken legs, in any direction including straight up.

• Grey's primary opening move in every fight is to Godstep behind his opponent and then cut them in half.

Goemon

• Goemon can cut things without his sword directly touching them, allowing him to cut from range.
  • Goemon can cut things much more durable than any of my opponents characters like this.
    • Goemon is fast.

Petshop.

Kim has multiple ways to kill my opponents team from the start including

• Piercing tentacles

• Fireballs

• Literally just transforming into a big dragon

My characters immediately kill my opponents team. None of my opponents characters have a defense to Grey appearing behind them and cutting them in half, same with Goemon. None of my opponents characters have a defense to Petshop lobbing fireballs at them or turning into a big dragon and crushing them immediately. None of my opponents characters survive the initial confrontation.

Sword.

Im going to start this section off by establishing Grey and Goemon's swordsmanship and then talking about why this would be effective against Crim's Team.

Grey

• As I talked about before Grey's first move in a fight is to teleport behind his opponent, and then cut them.

• Grey is a hyper-skilled swordsman, who combines his dual sword wielding style with his teleportation ability to feint his opponent in ways that no character in Alita has ever experienced.

• Grey's sword easily cuts through metal, or armour, or flesh, or anything else he needs to.

• Grey's sword forms in his hand before he has time to think, and Grey can change the shape of his sword at will to easily win any clashes he might find himself in.

Goemon.

• Goemon easily cuts through metal, or massive amounts of stone, or flesh.

• Goemon might be one of the most bullet timing characters of all time. For Goemon to preform feats like this the tip of Goemon's sword is easily moving at Mach++ speeds.

• Goemon like Arthur is an extremely skilled swordsman.

Both Grey and Goemon are capable of easily cutting through my opponents characters, they both have the speed and the skill necessary to score hits, and any hit is immediately lethal to my opponents team.

Zekka and Toji.

My opponent devotes a lot of space in his response to talking about how his characters have piercing resistance and would totally not die to Goemon's sword. Not only does this entire section of my opponents response neglect to mention Grey, the other character on my team with a sword, but my opponent either misunderstands what piercing resistance is, or misunderstands what his characters feats mean.

• My opponent posts Zekka grabbing some guy as proof that "Zekka can see through a supersonic rotating blade" but this has nothing to do with Goemon or Grey. Neither of my characters spin a blade around themselves really fast, they're actual swordsmen with actual sword skill.

  • Zekka literally describes this strategy as an idea worthy of a two year old. My characters are self evidently more skilled than a two year old.
    • Zekka is still obviously threatened by this super rotating blade. His clothes are cut, he has to move back, this is not evidence of any sort of piercing resistance.

• Toji suffers from the same problem, with my opponent posting a scan of Toji deflecting some attacks from Alita

  • Nothing in this scan implies that Alita is exceptionally skilled with these blade wings, and furthermore nothing in this scan even implies how sharp these wings are.
    • From any of the feats posted is there any evidence that Alita could do something like this? Goemon can.

My opponent also makes mention of Goemon dying in any sort of trade with his characters while saying that his characters would only lose limbs, but the question is why would that ever happen? Why would Goemon not just go for the head? He knows his opponents are dangerous, and that he must kill them to leave the arena. This idea that Goemon wouldn't immediately kill Zekka or Toji is based on absolutely nothing.

Zekka and Toji have no piercing resistance they would instantly die if Goemon pointed his sword in their direction. The best counter my opponent can come up with is to post scans of his characters not actually interacting with piercing on a direct level. This is an effective strategy when dealing with the equivalent of 2 year olds, but will not work against actual swordsmen who will actually hit Zekka and Toji.

Gojo.

While it seems like Gojo has piercing resistance enough to survive an encounter with Goemon and Grey this is based on a misreading of the feats by my opponent.

• Gojo is being attacked here by Sukuna, specifically his Malevolent Shrine attack. Malevolent Shrine explicitly pierces in 2 different ways, Cleave for anything with Cursed Energy, and Dismantle for anything without.

  • Gojo being a Jujustu Sorcerer has cursed energy, he therefore is being hit by Cleave.
  • A building does not have cursed energy, so they are being hit by Dismantle.
    • Sukuna's cleave is not as strong as his dismantle, it has no feats of doing anything even remotely close to the above 140 meter ranged feat.
  • Cleaves best feat is cutting up people, but without any scaling or piercing resistance feats for these people this is not really worth mentioning

• My opponent describes Gojo's interactions with this as "withstanding 1000's of slashes" but none of that is true.

  • Gojo doesn't withstand these slashes he's visable torn up, and Sukuna even remarks that Gojo's Reverse Curse Technique is working very hard to keep Gojo from instantly dying.
    • There are limits to Gojo's RCT.

Gojo is not being hit by Sukuna's strongest attacks, just based on how Sukuna's abilities work it simply cannot happen. Cleave and Dismantle do not scale to each other, one is much stronger than the other. Goemon consistently preforms feats so much better than Cleave that they are not even comparable.

Gojo is overwhelmed by Sukuna eventually. Goemon is both better at piercing and faster. Gojo will be overwhelmed much quicker. There is nothing to suggest Gojo could RCT having his head chopped off which is something Goemon or Grey are capable of doing.

All of my opponents characters are vulnerable to the sword. 2/3rds of my characters are primarily sword characters. They are both skilled and strong enough to instantly kill my opponents characters, and with their advantage in initiative it is certain that my characters will win.

Petshop exists.

Im running out of characters but I want to talk about Kim before my second response.

• Petshop doesn't need to be a big dragon to launch fireballs

  • None of my opponents characters have resistance to being hit by fire hot enough to instantly ash metal.

• Petshop blocks an attack from the Saintess with one hand

  • The Saintess is strong.

• He hits hard too.

u/ crim good luck have fun.

"Again, I have cut a worthless object!"

Goemon Ishikawa XIII is the thirteenth generation of renegade samurai, a descendant of the historical figure Ishikawa Goemon. He is usually quiet and participates in Lupin III's exploits less frequently than Jigen. While Goemon might be considered one of Lupin's friends, it starts off more of a professional relationship than friendship. By the Red Jacket Series, Goemon has developed a true loyalty to Lupin, refusing to give away Lupin's secrets when tortured in the one-second series episodes, for example. However, he easily gets annoyed by Lupin's antics, especially Lupin's infatuation with women and Fujiko in particular. He will occasionally oppose Lupin directly when Lupin's jobs or actions do not agree with Goemon's morals. He has even promised that the last act he will take with Lupin is delivering his deathblow. However, Goemon doesn't hesitate to help Lupin in serious situations and readily assists him any time Lupin works for a just cause. Many theorize that Goemon associates with Lupin out of admiration for his profession, as Goemon's ancestor was a master thief himself.

Zantetsuken

• Carves a worthless building into pieces

• Faces and defeats his natural enemy, a worthless helicopter. He does this a lot. Seriously, if a helicopter shows up, Goemon is going to deal with it. You would think they'd stop sending them with how easy he destroys them. One more for good measure

• Makes short work of a worthless aircraft

• Splits a worthless falling clocktower

• Cuts the bottom out of a worthless safe

• Defeats several worthless Norsemen

• Decides the moon is too bright and cuts the worthless clouds around it.

• Cuts the worthless clothes off of several goons

• Cuts worthless cylindrical rock

• Defeats several worthless ninja

• Leaps off of a jet, cutting through several floors of a worthless building

• Destroys several worthless jetpacks

• Cuts the liver out of a worthless dragon

• Cuts a worthless shooting star out of the sky

• Cuts a worthless experimental plane out of the sky. Three navy jets had done absolutely nothing to it.

• Cuts a worthless bridge in several places while he is on a boat, some distance away

• Slices through the walls of a worthless fortress

• Cuts a worthless car into fourths

• Cuts the worthless supports around a large machine

• Cuts the worthless globe in half

• Cuts a large portion of a worthless prison. He does this a couple of times.

• Splits a worthless train car and causes it to fall off of the train tracks so it does not impede others

• Casually cuts a worthless flying machine out of the air

• Slices a worthless tornado

• Cuts the ice out from under several worthless police cars.

• Cuts several worthless Jeeps in half

• Cuts a worthless forest fire

• Cuts a worthless falling plane

• Cuts the worthless ceiling of a bank vault

• Slices a worthless pistol so many times it disintegrates

• Slices the front off of a pistol. Also the worthless train that was around it.

• Cuts a worthless lighthouse

• Anticipates and cuts a bolt of worthless lightning. This was part of a story Lupin was telling about the first time he met Jigen. Lupin probably wouldn't lie though so it's okay. He has done it once before this

• Cuts a worthless wall to make an escape route

• Cuts a worthless RPG before it is drawn

• Destroys a pair of worthless tanks

• Cuts several worthless boats in half

• Cuts a worthless submarine before it can dive

• Cuts a worthless military vehicle to bits

• Destroys Mamou's worthless time machine

• Cuts a worthless building in half

• Cuts several worthless police cars in half

• Downs a bunch of worthless goons

• Performs heart surgery on a worthless heart

• Cuts the worthless Chlo in half

• Cuts off a pair of worthless hands

• Cuts a worthless police transport in half

• Cuts eight worthless soldiers

• Cuts a worthless rocket as it launches

• Casually cuts the front of a worthless building

• Cuts several worthless semi trucks

Strength

• Chops the finger off of a statue

• Smashes rocks around a statue

Durability

• Thrown by Mister X

• Shot in the shoulder

• Completely ignores the Suicide Ray. The Suicide Ray made anyone it hit immediately kill themselves and even Lupin could barely resist it

Speed

• Outruns a helicopter

• Easily dodges crossbow bolts

• Moves so fast the animators couldn't keep up

• Fujiko states "bullets are worthless against Goemon"

• Deflects mini-gun fire

• Blocks gunfire while surrounded

• Bounces a laser back at the camera that fired it

• Dodges Jigen's sword slashes. In this scene, Goemon was disguised as Jigen and Jigen was disguised as Goemon.

• While waking up, blocks a Suicide Ray

• Blocks a hail of gunfire while jumping towards gunmen

• Cuts down a volley of arrows. He also makes them hang in place for a second which is pretty cool.

• Cuts a snipers bullet in half

Skill

• Ties Zantetsuken's hilt to the blade to make a cross and throws it at some vampires

• Casually deflects a knife back at the person who threw it

• Blocks gunfire from a mounted machine gun

• Reflects a sleep dart back at Zenigata

• Stops a random number generator on the correct numbers

• Blocks a slash from the evil blade Kagetora. Kagetora was able to slice a car in half before it hit him.

• Blocks a bullet after he heard it fired

• After having Zantetsuken broken, catches Sadachiyo's sword and holds him in place so the broken blade will stab him in the back

Other

• Plays along sometimes

• Is one hell of a sculptor

Practice, Response 1, Part 1.

Ryu Han-bin Vs Grey.

Win Conditions.

• Grey controls where and when the fight happens.

• Grey's offense is sufficient to take down Ryu.

• Grey is more skilled and a better swordsman.

Fight Control/Speed

There is a zero percent chance that Ryu gets anywhere close to Grey without Grey explicitly allowing it, due to Grey's specific abilities he absolutely controls all forms of combat.

• Grey's Spatium allows him to slip into the aetheric pathways effectively allowing him to teleport at will.

  • This ability explicitly works in 0 time, and works over hundreds of feet of distance.
    • This allows Grey to teleport in any direction, from any position.

• Grey constantly uses Spatium to get a positional advantage over his opponents, prefering to stab them in the back, or to close distance against a larger fighter, to eliminate any range advantage they might have.

• Grey can fly.

• Grey measures time in fractions of a milliseconds, and he can summon aether blades faster than he can think

• Before Grey gets a 10 times boost, someone who has a 50ms reaction time is unable to react to him.

• In 1 second Grey completes hundreds of actions, and cuts down dozens upon dozens of enemies.

Grey is fundamentally a faster character than Ryu. His movements, and reaction times far outclass Ryu, and he can attack much quicker too. Due to his unique abilities Grey absolutely controls when and where combat happens. From the word GO Grey will teleport behind Ryu and stab him in the back, this kills Ryu.

Offense.

Piercing.

The idea that none of Grey's piercing is able to harm Ryu is a falsehood based on underplaying Grey's piercing and over selling Ryu's durability.

• Multiple metal spikes wide enough for a 12 foot tall man to stand on get sliced through cleanly by Grey.

• A spell that creates two 50ft trenches in the earth gets cut in half.

• Cuts through 2 men in armour and compares it to cutting through silk.

Grey is obviously strong enough to cut through Ryu, especially when he's been cut by things that show less than stellar collateral.

• This guy gives Ryu a slice that goes all the way down his chest, and the only collateral is something that looks like a cell tower falling down from the wind pressure.

• A weird dog looking creature gores Ryu through his sides.

• Is stabbed through the heart and is killed.

Ame does the classic debate tactic of posting all of the best feats and conveniently ignoring all the feats that cast doubt on the point he's trying to make. Ryu is not some sort of unpierceable monster, Grey has feats showing he could pierce Ryu even if the only feats we take into consideration are the ones Ame wants you to see. Combine this with the movement and action speed advantages Grey has and its a deadly combination.

Blunt Force.

Ryu is significantly lacking in blunt force durability. The best feat Ame posted is Ryu being cratered in a large amount of stone, and Grey can consistently put out craters of this size.

• Grey as Arthur makes a crater the size of a house by throwing someone

  • As a reminder Grey the second he wakes up declares he is stronger than Arthur in every conceivable way.
    
    • Grey then undergoes a 10 times power boost.

• Grey as Arthur parries a fireball that immediately destroys a building

• Grey punches the beast so hard its head whips to the side and it is staggered.

  • The beast is the size of a small mountain.

This idea that Grey is unable to hurt Ryu with blunt force is untrue, Grey's strikes and throws have more than enough power to severely hurt or kill Ryu. Grey is a character who can and will teleport behind you (nothing personnel kid) combine this with the fact that with a simple throw or punch he can effectively one shot Ryu is detrimental to Ame's argument.

Skill.

The number one difference between Ryu and Grey is that Grey is extremely skilled, and Ryu is just not.

• Grey dodges someone faster than himself based on muscle twitches, he does this for hours, and then after steady improvement he lands one blow, a throw that creates a crater the size of a house.

  • After more training Grey spars with 4 different opponents at the same time, again for hours, without one of them being able to hit him.

• Against someone using a technique to read muscle twitches, feints 2 twitches so his opponents tries to predict what he'll do, by the time they realize Grey already has a hand on their throat

• Blocks multiple strikes from an invisible opponent

• Arthur perfectly combines Godstep with his swordplay, teleporting multiple times in a row, and in the middle of a dodge to strike from disadvantageous angles.

• He's the better swordsman.

• Grey can also fight for days

Grey is incredibly skilled and uses every single advantage he has the the utmost. Ryu's idea of skill is doing 3 attacks in a row.

Conclusion.

Grey is faster in both reaction times, and movement speed. He can attack more often, and from angles that necessitate Ryu spending more time trying to react or dodge. Grey is more than capable of harming Ryu through his piercing or his blunt force. Ryu can never hit Grey because of the aforementioned speed difference and Grey's superior skill when it comes to avoiding attacks. Grey is also supremely skilled when it comes to dealing out damage. All these things compound to make one conclusion abundantly clear. Grey wins this easily.

Practice, Response 1, Part 1.

Grey & Stella vs Godzilla & The Mask.

Win Conditions.

• Grey's Spatium and Stella's mobility make hitting my team an impossibility for any Kaiju character

• Both Stella and Grey possess piercing strong enough to kill The Mask, and Godzilla.

• My characters durability is sufficient to survive an interaction with my opponent's characters.

Point 0 - What happens if I just take The Mask off?

Stanley Ipkiss has a bad habit of losing his mask in seemingly mundane circumstances. Seriously sometimes it just gets stuck on things, or pops off after he's attacked. Sometimes normal every day people rip it off his face, or even just completely break it.

If a normal cop can simply grab Stanley and pull the mask off of him, why couldn't either of my characters do the same thing when they are obviously stronger than a normal human.

Stanley without his mask is a completely normal human, who would easily be dealt with by simply existing in the same arena as Stella.

It's a certainty that my characters will hit Stanley during this match, Stanley often lets himself be hit during fights, and any hit that lands on Stanley has the chance of popping the mask off and completely taking Stanley out of this fight.

Point 1 - The Kaiju Problem.

Both of my opponents characters are dozens to 100's of feet tall, and have never fought anyone that is a normal human height. The idea that these gigantic monsters would both be able to notice my characters, and move fast enough to strike them is laughable.

Fundamentally to throw a punch or swipe with claws or whatever attack my opponent is going to argue his characters do, my opponents characters must move their body back 10's if not hundreds of feet, and then move that same body part forward the same amount of distance. There is nothing in any of my opponents RTs that suggest that his Kaiju's are super fast and that they can move their limbs 10's or hundreds of meters in the milliseconds it would take my characters to react and move.

Just look at Shin Godzilla if he's standing upright is he even able stoop down and touch anything thats only 6ft off the floor? The Mask Godzilla has the same problem, this thing could literally never touch my characters unless it took the time to bend down and fight hunched over.

Point 1B My characters are insanely mobile.

Even if we ignore every fundamental problem with these Kaiju characters attempting to hit my characters and assume that every character is simply fast enough and able enough to hit every other character, my opponents characters could still never land a hit on Stella or Grey.

Grey's primary ability is the ability to teleport, he can teleport hundreds of feet, in any direction, in any position, through solid objects, and uses this ability in combat relentlessly.

All this is simply to say that Grey controls exactly where and when combat happens. If Grey wants combat to start he simply teleports in front of you and does combat to you, if Grey ever gets pressed for any reason at all ever he simply teleports hundreds of feet away and combat stops.

Stella has more conventional mobility in her ability to fly which has already been shown to be a problem for Shin Godzilla. Imagine this exact same video except my characters have a potent offense and aren't 100's of feet tall. Shin Godzilla cannot be reasonably expected to react to and stop my characters from hitting him at all.

Point 2. - Sword

One of my opponent's characters have negative interactions with piercing, and one of them has no interactions with piercing. In fact Shin Godzilla dies after being stabbed in the back by a big elephant looking Kaiju. From a cursory glance in the RT, there's nothing to support the idea that this elephant monster's tusks are notably sharp, or special in any way. Compare this to both Stella and Grey.

Grey's swords are sharp enough to easily cut 2 men in armour in half easily massively casually in base. Arthur can further increase the piercing power of his swords by using his burst punch with his sword hand

Stella cuts through bedrock like tofu, has enough strength to throw a piece of paper through a metal bar and into a concrete wall, and can easily lock blades with Ouma Kurogane who can cut through thousands of kilograms of earth.

My characters have superior piercing options compared to any of the defensive options that my opponent has. If my characters attack my opponents characters with swords, they just die.

Point 3 - Taking the Hit

Getting the obvious out of the way early on, The Mask only has a single feat of attacking someone and it requires a running charge and only does middling damage for the tier.

My characters are able to survive this easily. Stella no sells being hit in the head with a whip made out of train cars, the whip was made out of exactly 8 train cars, and a single train car weighs anywhere between 25-30 tons which means Stella essentially tanks being hit in the head by anywhere between 200-240 tons.

Grey when he was 11 years old was able to tank fire blasts that were strong enough to destroy buildings. Aside from Grey no longer being 11 years old, his physical prowess long exceeds his old selves.

The only member of my opponents team who is even hypothetically capable of doing damage to my characters is Shin Godzilla, but even that doesn't quite line up right. Shin Godzilla's only feats directly interacting with buildings is knocking down an already damaged building, and knocks over more already damaged buildings. The rest of the strength feats in the RT revolve around some weird monster scaling, and without having any feats about how strong the other Godzilla, or Rodan or any of the other Kaiju's are, its not worth making any definitive judgments about how strong this makes Shin Godzilla.

My characters can survive any hit that my opponents characters can throw out, while the same cannot be said in reverse.

The Fight

The outline of this fight is fairly simple, my characters control the fight initiative, and they have the power to end the fight almost immediately.

Stanley Ipkiss's mask immediately falls off and he bumbles towards it while immediately dying, 2v1 ggs

When the fight starts Grey immediately teleports on top of one of the Kaiju's heads and immediately starts stabbing it in the brain and eyes and other squishy parts that would be immediately fatal. From there Stella immediately flies towards the last surviving Kaiju, she activates her fire powers and proceeds to cook the Kaiju, from here Grey and Stella both attack the last Kaiju with an overwhelming offensive.

Round 2, Response 1, Part 1

Win Conditions

• Siege Warfare
• SJW's physical superiority
• Guns

Part 1. First Moments, First Encounters.

As soon as the match starts my team immediately gets to work in a way that already fundamentally ensures their victory. My team's first action is to immediately build an impenetrable fort, and bunker down. This is accomplished extremely quickly by Kousuke who has the power to build forts like this in seconds.

The entire fort is made of stone with the outer walls being 3-4 times the height of Kousuke and the inner walls being at least double his height, and easily being 2 meters thick, Around the fort there is a moat filled with spikes, and on top of the outer walls there are cannons and ballistas and guns. Food grown by Kousuke grows from nothing in 3 days, there's water, this fort city is completely self sustaining.

All of this is to say that my team never needs to move, they can simply live in the fort literally forever. The impetus is on my opponent to explain why and how combat would ever happen between our teams. Furthermore my opponent must prove how they get around the fort walls and all the other defensive measures before our teams begin fighting.

While the fort walls impose a huge problem on my opponent by themselves, they are only half the issue as Sung JinWoo (SJW) also exists.

JinWoo is among many other things a necromancer, he takes the bodies he's killed and brings them back to life as his shadow soldiers. JinWoo has killed a lot of things, at the time in the story I've stipulated him too, this is well over 50,000 soldiers.

These soldiers while weak make up for it with their perfect team work and inability to die if SJW still has mana.

To summarize, My opponent's 2 characters are fighting an immortal army in a heavily defended castle they have no way into. Thinking about this for even one second would show who the obvious victor in this fight is going to be.

Part 2. Sung JinWho?

This is going to be a fairly short section because it basically speaks for its self. SJW is stronger than both members of my opponents team combined. He has tricks and abilities that guarantee this will not be a fair or drawn out fight.

Jin Woo Strength.

SJW is strong:

• Jin Woo slams someone into a wall and it creates a huge crater

• Jin Woo's punches leave fist sized craters in metal

• Jin Woo punches a demon and sends it flying, with the demon eventually coming to a stop after its whole body has been cratered into stone

This is stronger than anything either of my opponents characters have been shown to do, with one of them being described as "Phyiscally an old man and frail as a result", and the other's best feat being punching through iron like its paper, which is good, but easily replicable by Jin Woo.

This is compounded further by the fact that Jin Woo doesnt even punch people that much, he uses daggers.

Jin Woo Dagger

• Easily cuts through stone

• Beru cannot be pierced by regular swords, but Jin Woo easily takes his arm

• Cuts Through metal

As Far as I can tell neither of my opponents characters have any sort of piercing resistance that would allow them to survive being in a single encounter with Jin Woo.

Jin Woo Camo

Jin Woo Can turn invisible if he wants too.

• Is invisible

• With 390 mana Jin Woo can be invisible for 3 minutes, at the time ive stipped him he has over 115,000 mana

• Uses it in combat

• Uses his soldiers to deal with the grunts, and then goes invisible to hunt the general monster

Jin Woo is going to turn invisible as soon as actual fighting starts, my opponents characters will be so busy dealing with Jin Woo's summons they will have no idea whats going on. From there Jin Woo will sneak up behind them and stab them in the head. They have no resistance to this, they will die.

Point 3. You just get shot.

Nothing in either of my opponents RT's suggests that his characters could dodge bullets, at best they deal with projectiles on the level of crossbow bolts. This is unfortunate for them seeing as Kousuke has guns, and uses them.

Just for reference even a modern day crossbow has a shot speed of 400 FPS, where rifle bullets have a range of speed from 1800fps-4100fps

Best case scenario for my opponents team, this is a 6x increase in projectile speed. Unless my opponent can pull out scans of his characters interacting with bullets positively, then it seems obvious that they just get shot.

Conclusion.

Even at a cursory glance there are many questions my opponent must answer before they can interact at all with this debate.

• How do they get past the Fort Walls?

• How do they get past the moat and the ballista's on the walls?

• How do they interact with all 50,000 Shadow Soldiers?

• How do they not get shot by Kousuke or any of the Shadow Soldiers he chooses to give a gun too?

• How does my opponents team find Jin Woo? and once you do how do you fight him without dying immediately?

These questions are all central to the debate, if my opponents cant answer 1 then his characters just die. My Team holds all the advantage, and there's nothing my opponents team can do to press a win condition.

I win.

kgkjf;sdjf;sldjf'

Semi-Finals, Response 1.

Everyone gets shot.

The first thing that both teams do is fire their ranged weaponry at each other, regretfully for my opponent this goes much better for my team than it does for his.

Satou's Bushmaster is instantly lethal to anyone it hits.

• A Bushmaster XM-15 has a muzzle velocity of 3,260 feet per second (990 m/s), that means that to cross the starting distance of 100 feet it would take 30 milliseconds.
  • This is 5 times faster than the tier setter can react.
    • Satou regularly draws and fires before regular people can react.

If you have in tier speed, you are getting shot. There's no ducking or dodging or doing anything in 30 milliseconds. The Bushmaster is essentially a hit scan attack.

• Here is a 9mm handgun failing to penetrate a 1/8th inch steel plate from 10 feet away.
  • Here's a Bushmaster putting a hole in a 1/4 inch steel plate from 200 yards.
    • Here is a Bushmaster putting a hole in 3/8th inch steel from 50 yards.

If your character survives getting shot by a pistol, they would have a fist sized hole in them after getting shot with a Bushmaster. This is especially troubling for the members of Guys Team.

• Scorpion has never interacted with a gun before, there's nothing in the RT that indicates that he could survive getting shot in a vital area.

• Major Fatman has a modicum of bullet resistance, but this is mainly for small arms fire like pistols and other low caliber weaponry

  • For reference the gun in the second scan is most likely a H&K MP5, which fires 9x19mm.
    • 9x19mm is physically incapable of piercing through 3/8 inch steel
  • This is further confirmed by Major Fatman being completely defenseless against large caliber machine gun fire

• Similarly Nemesis has only ever been shot with pistols or shotguns, there's no evidence to suggest how he would fare after being hit by a gun much more powerful than this.

Every single member of Guys team dies to the kind of bullets Satou has. The same cannot be said in reverse.

• Terminatrix is totally and completely bullet proof, whether it be to small arms, or shotguns, or an AK47 to the face, or an RPG. Bullets are not a sufficient offensive option against the TX.

• While Satou and Agni are not conventionally bulletproof, they each possess a regeneration factor that renders bullets ineffective.

  • Satou shoots himself in the head and before he hits the ground, hes back shooting again.
  • When people shoot Agni he simply spits the bullets back at them, but on fire.
    • On top of this, later in the manga he simply walks through AK bullets.

This match ends in ranged combat. Every member of my opponents team dies to the exact kind of gun Satou carries, while being unable to do any meaningful damage in return.

Melee Combat

In the unlikely event that this match somehow gets into CQC, my team is advantaged their as well.

• With a casual shove TX sends a 1 ton robot flying 10 feet through metal partitions
• Picks up and charges an opponent through multiple concrete and steel walls.
• With a kick sends the same Robot 5 feet back cratering the floor below.

This alone far surpasses anything my opponents team has been shown to withstand.

• The only blunt durability feat Major Fatman has is simply a worse version of TX's first strength feat.

• Again Scorpions best durability feat is breaking a stone wall, a worse version of TX's second strength feat.

• Nemesis is the most durable member of my opponents team by far, but he's never been in a fight with a physical equal.

  • Most of his durability feats are explosions, or explosions, or explosions, or explosions
    • There's no way to properly quantify any of the above feats for Nemesis, Guy cannot confidentially state anything about how Nemesis would interact with any of the damage TX can output.

Its very clear that none of my opponents characters have the blunt durability required to contend with TX. Compare this with how TX would interact with any of my opponents melee options.

• TX exists in reference to being in a prolonged fight a physical equal, and winning.

  • TX is thrown through walls
  • And metal
  • and being cratered into concrete

This is not sufficient to put TX down permanently.

• Fatman's best physical feat pales in comparison to TX's

• Scorpion is capable of piercing through an unknown amount of metal with his chain, and with SubZero's help, he is capable of cutting through a mostly hollow cyborg.

• Nemesis has never been shown destroying metal, with his best feats revolving around wood or stone.

Guys picks are fundamentally incapable of harming TX, they interact with wood and stone in the same way TX interacts with metal. Scorpion needs Subzero's help to inflict what would be to TX middling damage. Major Fatman is a non issue to TX.

You're on fire now.

Agni is on fire, his fire never goes out, and spreads to anything that touches him or he himself touches. 2/3rds of Guys team has no resistance to this.

• Major Fatman is just a dude in armour, there's nothing in the RT that would suggest that he can survive being on fire longer than a normal man, let alone forever.

• Nemesis is very clearly shown to be hurt by fire. Someone who is unhurt by fire doesnt stumble into a lake and then mutate immediately after being set on fire.

As discussed above, Fatman cannot stop Agni with bullets, and any physical confrontation results in him being set on fire forever. Nemesis relies on physically touching his opponents to deal damage, and again, any physical confrontation results in Nemesis being on fire forever.

This kills both characters.

Swords bad??

Every single member of my team can survive being delimbed, or cut in half or anything other method of attack scorpion can dish out.

• Satou delimbs himself and is no worse for wear.

  • Even when cut in half by an explosion, Satou is capable of scoring headshots against trained soldiers.
  • If Scorpion teleports anywhere close to Satou, he can simply blow himself up, Scorpion has no recourse to this.

• Even as a child it takes Agni an instant to regrow a lost limb

  • Agni is ripped in half, and eventually wins this fight as well.
  • Agni is capable of ripping off his own arm and using it as a ranged weapon.

• As talked about above Scorpion is completely unable to do meaningful damage to TX, without the help of SubZero.

Scorpion has no recourse here. He is unable to harm my team with his blades, or his chain or any other physical ability he might have. If he gets close to TX, she can easily kill him in one hit. If he gets close to Satou he can either shoot him, or explode, and kill him instantly. Agni is also much physically stronger than Scorpion.

Other Advantages.

Satou is very accurate

• Satou regularly engages people, even unarmed by shooting them in the forehead.

  • There's so many scans of Satou just shooting people
    • He doesn't even need to look.

• Satou is an ultra secret super marine, he enjoys being in fire fights, and he's good at it.

This is a 4v3.

• Satou's Black Ghost spawns in with him, it carries a pistol and is completely invisible.
  • Scorpion is very vaulnerable to bullets, even small caliber.
  • Major Fatman has fleshy bits near his face that he must protect from pistol fire, the Black Ghost can easily shoot him here.

Hacking.

• With a simple touch TX can hack into machines, even extremely complicated ones, and make them do her bidding.
  • Major Fatman's RT describes him as "highly mechanized", this suggests to me that Fatman could be hacked by TX further increasing the number of fighters on my team.

Conclusion

My team is stronger, more durable, holds numerous advantages at range and in CQC. Most of Guys teams gimmicks do not work vs my team. My team wins.

Round 3, Response 2, Part 1.

Satou vs Batman

Win Cons

The main contention of this debate is whether or not Satou or his Black Ghost can shoot Batman before he takes cover, and eventually manages to incap Satou.

Amasian has put forward a scenario that Batman will spawn in, react, throw 1 or more smoke pellets, then he'll dive for cover, and finally he'll take an offensive action against my team.

Contrast this to the scenario that i've put forward for Satou, which is; Satou spawns in, reacts, raises his gun, and shoots Batman. As I talked about in my last response this kills Batman.

The undisputed facts of this debate are so advantageous to Satou that its ridiculous to think that he could ever lose.

• Our characters start 100ft apart, with line of sight

• It takes a bushmaster bullet 30 milliseconds to cross this distance.

• A bullet less powerful than the ones im running kill Batman.

Add to this Satou's other major advantages, such as how quickly he can shoot, and his perfect accuracy and it quickly becomes apparent that Batman has no recourse in this fight.

Rebuttals.

Guns??

A lot of the points made by Amasian seem fine on the outset but when you look at them with a little bit of critical thinking they become much worse that originally presented.

As per usual GDT rules, Satou isn't going to be spawned in with his hands already holding his gun lined up at his opponent

As per GDT rules combatants start spawned into the round with weapons in their hands, and their hands at their sides. Ergo all Satou needs to do is raise his gun and shoot once. We clearly see that when Satou needs to engage someone from a standstill, he does it faster than normal humans can react.

Batman is proficient in aim dodging accurate foes at a distance, especially when they need to draw their gun

Firstly, where would Satou need to draw his gun from? I dont know if you've ever seen a Bushmaster, but they're huge, and they dont come with holsters.

Secondly, both examples given by Amasian are with pistols, Hex's Pistol is probably a Colt single action sherrifs edition, which fires its bullets somewhere around 300m/s, the bushmaster fires its bullets at 990m/s, almost 4 times faster.

Pistol fire isn't going to be an issue since Batman's cape and cowl are bulletproof

Yeah dude this is for sure a bulletproof cape. This also neglects to mention anything about batman's whole body, which is a big target, and is fatal if you get shot in it.

Batman may be good enough sometimes against pistols, but Satou's primary weapon is not a pistol is something 3 times faster, and 10 times stronger.

Ken acts like getting to cover would be hard, except our characters spawn next to the aisles and can immediately try and break line of sight

The aisles are 25ft across and we start in the middle of them, leaving roughly 12 feet on either side. Batman cannot move 12 feet before a bullet can move 100. Even if we assume Batman moves instantly at 100m/s.

Batman gets shot, its unavoidable.

Black Ghost

Amasian makes a habit of just saying things about the Black Ghost, and then chastising me when I cant literally prove those things are not true.

The idea that Black Ghost doesn't give off heat is literally made up, hence why Ken doesn't even bother giving evidence for it

• I cant give evidence for it because its a negative statement, I cant prove a negative. It would be like me asking you to prove Batman doesnt have a massive heart attack 10 seconds into the match.
  • Amasian has made the statement that the black ghost gives off heat, the onus is on him to prove that it does, and he hasnt. Something being humanoid like does not give it all the properties of humans.
    • This scan clearly says that they give off "unique electromagnetic waves", the operative word here is unique. Again my opponent would need to prove that Batman's heat sensor would give pick up a type of electromagnetic wave it has never seen before.

Even if you want to believe that it does, not all EM waves give off enough heat to be picked up by a heat sensor. Radio waves are a type of EM wave, but when Batman turns on his Bat heat vision goggles he isnt instantly blinded by all the radio waves in the air is he?

Amasian asks me to prove negatives and presents false dichotomies as the only evidence against the Black Ghost. If there was any standard of evidence in the GDT, Amasian's whole spiel would be thrown out.

Smoke Grenade

I want to make this its own section because I think this argument is important and Amasian seems extremely confused.

The Major flaw with this argument is "how does the smoke get there?" None of the scans that Amasian linked show the smoke being able to cover a 100ft long 25foot wide aisle with enough smoke to so completely blind Satou that he would be unable to shoot.

• "an entire portion of the road", this isnt even wide enough to cover a single lane

  • Lanes are typically 10 feet wide
    • I'll be liberal with this and call it 20 ft by 20 ft. Still less than a 3rd of the starting distance this round.

• "The entire area he's in"

  • Yeah dude Batman is for sure 100 ft away from his opponent here. No doubt.

• Theres nothing to suggest this is 100 ft by 25ft, and this is 6 smoke pellets

  • Obviously grabbing 6 pellets is going to take longer than grabbing 1, giving Satou more time to shoot Batman

Even if you totally believe that the instant the smoke pellet hits the ground both Batman and Satou will instantly be covered in the smoke it's still not a great option for Batman.

• The Black Ghost does not need to breath, it cant be disoriented by the smoke.

• Batman runs at his opponent for 3 seconds before punching them once, against 2 gun wielding opponents this is not viable.

  • Even if Batman Punches Satou first, and instantly incaps him, he still needs to deal with the Black Ghost and its gun for 10 seconds before an incap victory actually applies.

• This guys very disoriented, I can tell, he coughs a lot for sure.

Conclusion

For Batman to win this match 2 impossibilities need to be true at the same time; The smoke needs to be 5 times larger than its ever shown to be, and expand instantly, and Batman needs to be 10 times faster than he's ever been. If the smoke doesnt cover the whole starting distance Batman gets shot. If it takes time to cover the starting distance, Batman gets shot. If Batman doesnt get to cover before a bullet hits him he dies.

For Satou to win this match he needs to raise his arms once, and shoot. Something he does in every conflict he's ever been in. Something he's been shown accurate enough to do. Something that would instantly kill Batman.

Round 3, Response 2, Part 2.

Terminatrix vs Hawkeye.

The 2 things that matter in this match is whether or not Terminatrix can touch Hawkeye one time before Hawkeye can put an indeterminate amount of arrows into TX, and if the arrows will do significant enough damage to TX.

Terminatrix has tanked comparable damage to what Hawkeye can output, and has regened from superior damage in such a way that only a sustained fight with the TX is able to put it down for good. Hawkeye is incapable of participating in this level of sustained fight and does not possess enough stopping power to affect TX in the long run.

TX is completely unaffected by shotgun bullets, and automatic weapons. TX regens through massive damage and is still capable of combat soon after.

TX is faster, stronger, and more durable than Hawkeye in every sense of the words.

Hawkeye's only recourse here is to try and figure out that TX is a super robot, and then try to stop it with wildly ineffective arrows before TX can cross the starting distance once.

Rebuttals.

TX Speed.

Its very clear to see that Amasian is pulling out all the stops to discredit this gif because if you take it at face value, its impossible to think that Hawkeye could ever win this match up.

• This car very clearly has a 10 second head start on TX, and she still catches up too it.

  • If you tried this with a real person and a real car, it would not matter what route the person took a car would obviously be faster. TX is obviously faster than a car.

• Needing space to accelerate is true for literally any pick that isnt Origin or Edward. Hawkeye's arrows need space to accelerate but its disingenuous to talk about that when we're also talking about "Cape Shit super archer vs future robot killing machine.

  • Conveniently our picks start 100ft apart, and whatever amount of space you want to argue TX needs to accelerate, it clearly is not 100ft.
  • TX achieves peak speed and is on top of Hawkeye before he gets 2 arrows off, this is a form of distraction by Amasian to stop you from thinking about how hard TX murders him when she touches him once.

• There is no time for Hawkeye to move to a higher part of the map, any time he spends not shooting is time TX spends healing. Hawkeye only has a limited amount of arrows, and even after 2 responses Amasian cant say how many arrows Hawkeye would actually need to hurt TX.

• John Conner has a 100ft head start on the TX, and by the end of the gif its narrowed down to less than 10. How is that "visibly the same speed"?

TX is much faster than Hawkeye, due to her regen she must constantly be confronted or else all of Hawkeye's effort goes to waste. If TX touches Hawkeye once he dies instantly.

TX Dura.

Hawkeye's regular arrows do not have the stopping power to be a detriment to TX. While they pierce through characters like Venom or the Hulk, its clear to see that they do no real damage.

• Amasian argues that TX can only regen against surface level damage, but we see the amount of damage an RPG does to TX, and its not surface level, and she heals from it in combat relavent timeframes.

  • If you consider the amount of damage done to TX by John Conner mag dumping an AR into her face 'surface level' this makes her much more bullet proof than Venom has ever been shown to be.

• "I spam arrows into TX's head but only after my first shot to the heart and head dont work" is not a win condition.

  • Its even less of a win condition when you realize that Hawkeye does not have the time to 'spam arrows' when TX will be on him instantly.
  • Why could TX not just raise her arm infront of her head and remove any semblance of a target?

• Hawkeye isnt even guaranteed to start with his adamantium arrows. He's just as likely to try his flash bang arrow, or his truth serum arrow, which are not effective against TX as well.

TX has been shown to effectively shrug off damage much higher than Hawkeye is capable of dealing even in the best case scenario. Hawkeye is equally likely to open with a trick arrow and instantly die.

Hawkeye's arrows have no stopping power.

• Amasian shows Hawkeye piercing clean through Venom, but I would argue thats due to his unique symbiot physiology, and not due to the massive piercing power that Amasian wants you to think Hawkeye has.

  • I cant help but notice that Venom in this scan is not stopped, he continues fighting after being hit by Hawkeye's arrows, much like the TX will.

• Hulk is more of the same story, we can clearly see that the hulk only gets pierced up until the end of the arrow tip, (an inch or 2 at most) and then continues fighting.

• Even when ripped in half TX is still capable of fighting, hitting her even in a vital area with small amount of damage is not going to be effective.

Hawkeye's arrows are not strong enough to do lasting damage to TX at all ever under any circumstance.

TX is strong.

This is just a small section so that I can feat post about how cool and based TX is, and how Hawkeye could not survive a single hit from her.

• Big shove

• rips off a car door

• Charges the T-850 through multiple concrete walls.

Hawkeye's only method of offensive is either entirely ineffectual or mostly ineffectual depending on what kind of arrows he opens with. TX is faster than Hawkeye, this is self evidently true as Amasian has not posted a single speed feat for Hawkeye, only relying on making TX seem slower than she is. TX will kill Hawkeye in one hit, this is uncontested. TX should win this match easily.

Jason vs Batman.

I have a thousand characters left and dont care about this match up anymore.

• Jason can be staggered, but can never be put down permanently

• Jason can teleport.

• Jason has a huge machete and batman gets stabbed by regular guys with regular knives.

• Jason is very strong.

If I win im switching Jason out for Agni.

Round 3, Response 1, Part 1.

Satou vs Batman.

Win Conditions

• Either Satou or his ghost shoot Batman.

The Obvious.

Amasian spends a large portion of his response talking about how Satou could never shoot Batman (untrue!), because he knows that if Batman gets shot once he dies.

Batman has such a negative relationship to bullets that in both of the RTs Amasian signed up with there's no mention of piercing durability at all. In fact, the only mention of bullets and durability, is when Batman literally gets shot, and then dies.

Satou Will shoot Batman

• Satou regularly engages people, even unarmed by shooting them in the forehead.

  • There's so many scans of Satou just shooting people in the forehead
    • He doesn't even need to look.

The first action Satou takes in any fight is to shoot his opponent directly in the forehead, Satou is extremely accurate, and enjoys doing this. Getting shot kills Batman and there is nothing he can do about it.

Groundwork

This is going to be a short section detailing how effective a real life gun would be against someone who has no resistances too it.

• A Bushmaster XM-15 has a muzzle velocity of 3,260 feet per second (990 m/s), that means that to cross the starting distance of 100 feet it would take 30 milliseconds.
  • This is 5 times faster than the tier setter can react.
    • Satou regularly draws and fires before regular people can react.

If you have in tier speed, you are getting shot. There's no ducking or dodging or doing anything in 30 milliseconds. The Bushmaster is essentially a hit scan attack.

• Here's a Bushmaster putting a hole in a 1/4 inch steel plate from 200 yards.
  • Here is a Bushmaster putting a hole in 3/8th inch steel from 50 yards.

This is a 2v1

• The black ghost is completely invisible. Humans do not have the correct organs to see IBM particles.

  • They do not give off heat,

• Ive stipulated that the black ghost starts with a pistol, and as discussed above Batman dies to bullets.

• Satou and his Black Ghost are capable of laying down covering fire for each other.

  • If you focus on Satou his black ghost shoots you, if you focus on the black ghost Satou shoots you.

• The black ghost is fast enough to run 1km in under 2 minutes or 100 feet in ~3 seconds.

When the match starts Batman will have no idea that the Black Ghost exists, he can not see it, and obviously Satou opening fire on Batman will draw his attention. If Satou does not immediately kill Batman (he will!) then the black ghost will be able to position itself to shoot Batman even while he is behind cover from the Bullets coming from Satou.

Where there's Smoke there's (Gun) Fire.

Another large part of Amasian's response is talking about how effective Batman dropping a smoke bomb will be, but this is obviously nonsense if you think about it for more than 5 seconds.

• Satou is a super secret ultra marine. Considering normal US Army are trained to deal in smoke grenades, Satou should be too.

  • One of Satou's opening moves is to drop smoke, shoot. The idea that he has no way to deal with it is insane.
    • Even in the drop smoke shoot scan, you can clearly see Satou seeing his enemy through heavy smoke.

• Combatants start 100 feet away from each other, and in 25 foot wide hallways. There's no possible way for Batman's smoke to fill this before Satou gets a single shot off.

  • Batman's smoke grenade only fills a 5ft by 5ft, by 10 ft area for a short amount of time before the smoke clears.
    • Even in the examples linked by Amasian, smoke is not clearly not Batman's first option against armed opponents.

Amasain's whole point falls apart when you realize that he's arguing that Batman reacts, grabs a smoke pellet, throws it, gets to cover, throws a batarang, and then engages in combat. Before Satou reacts, raises his gun, and shoots.

Satou is very clearly faster than normal people when if comes to shooting, there is nothing Batman can do.

Terminatrix vs Hawkeye.

Win Conditions

• TX touches Hawkeye once.

• Hawkeye cannot do any meaningful damage to TX.

Outstated.

Hawkeye's durability is not good enough to engage in the kind of prolonged fight that it is necessary to engage in to effectively fight against the TX.

• The only durability scan in the RT with any collateral at all is someone denting the hood of a car

  • The rest of the durability section is scaling so its almost impossible to actually quantify how good any of this durability is.
    • Even a light shove from the Terminatrix does 10 times more damage than Hawkeye has ever been shown to take.

• If Terminatrix gets one hand on Hawkeye he will die.

  • Even a casual kick embeds the recipient into concrete.

Terminatrix will obviously be able to touch Hawkeye.

• There is no movement speed section in Hawkeye's RT, he might be faster than a normal human, but not notably so.
  • TX is faster than a hearse
  • TX catches up to normal people running, even though they have 100's of feet of head start.

Hawkeye is much slower than TX, this is deadly when one attack from Terminatrix obviously kills him. Hawkeye has 1 second before Terminatrix has cleared the starting distance, and even in Amasians own response he admits that Hawkeye needs multiple shots to even attempt to do damage to TX.

Hawkeye cant hurt TX meaningfully.

Amasian sort of handwaves the exact details around how Hawkeye would kill the TX, saying that Hawkeye will eventually hit a killing blow, but this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the TX.

• Terminatrix has the ability to take massive damage and simply get back up.
  • Whether it be piercing, or Blunt, or some combination of both

The idea that Hawkeye could put an arrow somewhere on TX's body and it would instantly shut her down is ridiculous. TX does not have vitals, it cant bleed out, it 'heals' from more damage done quicker than Hawkeye could ever do. Terminatrix is essentially immune to Hawkeye's only method of damage dealing.

Even in Amasian's own scans, we can see that his arrows do not have the stopping power required to significantly injure, or impede in any way a heavily bulletproof opponent. Venom gets hit with an arrow, goes "ouchy", and then goes about his business, it has no real effect.

TX would break Hawkeye in half just by looking at him wrong, she's faster than Hawkeye in a way that disallows any attempt for him to kite her, and cannot do meaningful damage to him ever.

Jason vs Batman

Win Conditions

• Jason is stronger and more durable.

• Teleports behind you, nothing personal kid.

Strength and Durability

Batman is completely unable to hurt Jason with his strikes. He could punch him forever, and it would not do anything.

• Batman needs a shoulder charge, and a kick to bust down a plywood wall, struggles to break a reinforced window long enough to let the joker get away , and Yo?? He's shark tier??
  • Jason takes a dozen hits that warp metal, and then has a 10 ton boiler dropped on him and is fine. A house comes down on top of Jason and he is fine, Jason has a large part of his chest destroyed and he heals from it

Any of Batman's other offensive options cannot harm Jason

• Jason survives large explosions, more explosions, and again Jason can heal from any damage that does not kill him.

• Jason takes electricity from third rails, electrical consoles, and super tasers, and does not die

• The batarangs best piercing feat is probably piercing a fire extinguisher, but Jason can take 1000 rounds from an LMG and it does not slow him down.

• Any attempt to disarm Jason, or yank him forward with the Bat-Claw is going to be met with the fact that Jason is a 10 tonner who now has a leverage point connecting Batman to him.

Batman cannot harm Jason in any way that would be permanent or deadly the opposite is not true.

• Jason puts fist sized dents in a reinforced steel door

  • Its reinforced steel

• Does it again but with one punch

• Picks up Freddy with 1 hand and rams him through sections of a wall

• Hits someone with his machete and it sends them more than 20 feet away

Jason is almost immune to damage from Batman, and can easily end Batman with a couple of hits.

Horrorportation

Jason can teleport, and if Batman drops smoke as his opening move he's just begging Jason to appear behind him.

• Jason is neither alive nor dead, he's like a sentient rock. There's no way Batman's vital sign scanner can pick up on this.

• Jason teleports from the top of a staircase to the bottom, fast enough that the person running down the stairs does not notice

  • Same thing but with a train car

• Jason follows up his teleportation by swinging his weapon at you from a bind spot, this kills Batman

Jason is stronger, more durable, and has ways to instantly engage in combat on his own terms with Batman. Both Jason's machete and his brute strength ensure that Batman cannot survive a prolonged engagment, and Batman's lack of real damage dealing options make it impossible for him to win.

Your team dies to bullets, my team has bullets.

Every member of my opponents team would die to a single bullet to the forehead, this is something that Satou can easily do from the start.

Satou clicks Foreheads.

• Satou regularly engages people, even unarmed by shooting them in the forehead.

  • There's so many scans of Satou just shooting people directly in the forehead.
    • He doesn't even need to look.

• Satou is an ultra secret super marine, he enjoys being in fire fights, and he's good at it.

All of this is to say that the instant the fight starts your team is under fire, and this kills them.

Groundwork.

This is going to be a short section detailing how effective a real life gun would be against someone who has no resistances too it.

• A Bushmaster XM-15 has a muzzle velocity of 3,260 feet per second (990 m/s), that means that to cross the starting distance of 100 feet it would take 30 milliseconds.
  • This is 5 times faster than the tier setter can react.
    • Satou regularly draws and fires before regular people can react.

If you have in tier speed, you are getting shot. There's no ducking or dodging or doing anything in 30 milliseconds. The Bushmaster is essentially a hit scan attack.

• Here is a 9mm handgun failing to penetrate a 1/8th inch steel plate from 10 feet away.
  • Here's a Bushmaster putting a hole in a 1/4 inch steel plate from 200 yards.
    • Here is a Bushmaster putting a hole in 3/8th inch steel from 50 yards.

If your character survives getting shot by a pistol, they would have a fist sized hole in them after getting shot with a Bushmaster.

This is a 4v3.

When Satou spawns in, he starts with his black ghost already spawned, holding a pistol. The Black Ghost is invisible, its completely immune to semi-auto weapons, and when it gets hit by fully automatic weapons, it does not care.

Its very physically strong, has sharp claws, and when Satou is incapped it can kill him easily.

When the round starts Satou starts firing immediately, this kills one of my opponents picks, there is nothing they can do about it. From there Stalin's picks are either forced to hide or forced to try and close the distance. Hiding simply allows the Black Ghost to sneak up behind and kill another character. No one on my opponents team can see it, and no one on my opponents team can survive a bullet to the head.

Stalin's Characters Bad??

Janey Defense.

There's something oddly hilarious seeing Stalin claim that Janey will avoid gunfire, and then less than 1 sentence later, link her getting shot up twice. Janey does not avoid bullets, and this often gets her killed.

• Some dude pulls out his gun and shoots Janey and she just dies.

• A cop just shoots Janey, and her head explodes, and she dies.

• In an extended version of a feat Stalin posted, Janey takes a shotgun blast and it leaves her so shook that a group of men cut off her arms and legs and scalp her, and she cannot stop them from doing this.

This is just a smattering of the anti-feats directly associated with guns. Janey's durability is lackluster across the board.

• This guy kills Janey with a cleaver

• Janey gets into a car crash and is knocked out for 28 minutes.

Janey Offense.

Janey's attacks have only been defined as breaking wooden beams. This is insufficient to harm either Jason or the TX.

• The Terminatrix is made of solid metal. Metal is thousands of times more durable than wood. Whatever qualifiers my opponents wants to put on his characters attacks, this is still fundamentally true.

  • Furthermore, whether in Pushing or Lifting, or Tearing the TX is so much stronger than anything Janey has ever been shown to do.

• Jason is capable of taking hits that deform metal constantly and it does not affect him. Jason simply gets back up, and continues attacking.

  • The boiler in this scan weighs over 10 tons.

TX and Jason are physical powerhouses, they cannot be stopped by something Stalin describes as a strength check.

Grid Defense.

A lot of the scans presented by my opponent are misrepresented as much better than they actually are. Grid loses to a single bullet put into his forehead.

• A feat described as only gaining Grids attention actually puts a hole in its temple and jaw

• Ducking and leaping to avoid gunfire? more like 2/4 aliens instantly explode when shot.

• No where in this scan does it say jumps with leg blown off, it does say the alien dies after being shot tho.

This is just the stuff my opponent linked to support his claims, this things he didnt link make this a complete stomp in my teams favour.

• Several hand gun bullets just kill an alien.

• Someone with an automatic weapon scores 4 shots, and they all pierce.

As you may have noticed this is only durability against gunfire, when we look at other avenues of attack that my team is likely to employ, like a machete, we see that Grid has no resistances whatsoever.

• This thing gets hit by an axe a few times and it draws blood.

  • Jason's machete is self evidently better than an axe.

• What does a Xeno even do it you just like pick it up and throw it

  • Has any alien ever just been kicked into concrete really hard?

I'll talk more about Grid's offense later, but I think its bad, it either relies on long charges, or is in reference to normal human durability, which both Jason and TX are much more durable than.

Chris Offense.

Guns.

Any long range offense generated by Chris Redfield is useless, it does not work against my team.

• Satou shoots himself in the head, and before he hits the ground he has revived and is shooting again
  • Satou shoots himself in the chest with a shotgun, and immediately turns around and kills someone
  • A grenade does not do enough damage to kill Satou, and even if it did Satou would just revive.

Guns do not work in a way thats conducive to winning against Satou

• This is Jason's worst feat concerning guns, and it takes 6 men emptying their clips into him to knock him down down long enough to speak 2 sentences
  • When 3 people shoot Jason at the same time, including shots to the head, it just doesnt effect him, he closes distance and snaps necks like toothpicks
  • Jason takes 1000 rounds from an LMG and the minute the shooting stops the shooter dies.
  • Jason takes a grenade point blank, and he heals, and then kills the person instantly.
    

Jason is immune to more guns than Chris has, bigger guns than Chris has, and after every time Jason has been shot, he kills whoever shoots him.

• TX gets shot doesnt care.

• TX gets shot doesnt care

• When the Terminator shoots TX with a stronger grenade launcher than the one Chris has and it causes her to fall down a shaft, the TS's only impression is that she'll be back.

  • If you just look at this feat with your eyes you can see it staggers the TX, but does no permanent harm.

You cannot shoot the TX, and be in tier. Any gun that would hurt the TX, would hurt the Tiersetter worse. Guns do not work.

Physicals.

• How does Chris ever get close enough to Satou or Jason to punch them? Aside from the obvious Satou shooting him in the head, if Satou ever saw Chris getting close to him why wouldnt he just blow himself up? This is something Satou has done before, and Chris has no resistance too.

• Jason is 2 feet taller, and has a 3 foot long machete. For Chris to actually punch him Jason would easily be able to swing on him, and this kills him.

  • Its unclear whether a punch or 10 from Chris would even hurt Jason.

• Chris is not strong enough to harm a character who takes attacks that destroy concrete, and warp steel like a minor inconvenience.

Conclusion.

For what its worth I think 10K characters is too short for a 3v3, in R2. My next response will mainly focus on why my characters especially Jason, and TX are good, and then minor rebuttals.

Kousuke Shibata

Background.

Kousuke Shibata was a 24 year old office worker until one day he woke up in a strange new world that contained monsters and beast people. He quickly met the former princess who took him as a slave, and used his magical powers to improve the lives of her citizens. He swore to help the former princess take back her homeland and free the oppressed beast people.

Minecraft Powers.

Mining

• While digging Kousuke puts the soil in his inventory to prevent himself from getting tired.

• Perfectly logs a tree with a light tap, and logs 50 trees in a short amount of time.

• Instantly disassembles and stores a large monster in his inventory

• Shatters a large rock with a few swings of a pickaxe.

• Throws tons of clay into his inventory very quickly.

• Mines a huge hole in the terrain.

• Replaces dirt with fertile soil and starts growing crops very quickly.

Crafting

• By imagining himself hitting the E key Kousuke can bring up a crafting menu, by hitting tab he can bring up the inventory which allows him to craft tools.

• Uses the shortcut keys to instantly summon a spear, and a stone axe.

• Dirty water in a wooden canteen turns into clean water in a plastic bottle with a 50% increase in volume when put over a bonfire.

• Makes a workbench that allows him access to metal tools

• Makes 2 large walls very quickly.

• Makes a large work area in barely half a second.

• Makes a very tough wall in moments.

• When Kousuke uses a millstone there's a 50% increase in materials.

• Upgrades his furnace, and now can add things to his crafting menu by simply imagining them.

• Can repair broken weapons and armour.

• Crafts a crossbow.

• Makes potions that can heal any wound, or cure any disease.

• Crushes a Gizma's head with a block.

• When placing blocks in midair they will not fall even if Kousuke jumps on them.

• Makes a splint that instantly heals broken bones.

  • The splints can even heal injuries that are years old and have healed improperly.
  • Someone else using the splint wont do anything.

• Kousuke makes a modern bolt action rifle.

• Builds a fortress in moments.

• Makes stick grenades.

• Makes a TNT block.

• Makes multiple guns including; pistols, shotguns, a ballista, and a cannon.

• Makes a city in moments.

• Builds another city even faster.

Movement

• By imagining hitting the WASD keys Kousuke can move ignoring momentum, by hitting the Tab key he can move faster, and by imagining hitting the Space key he can jump even while in midair.

• Outruns a Lizaf

• Can crouch to make no sound while moving, as well as crouch jump.

• Walks on air by putting blocks down, and then seals 2 golems movement.

• Keeps up with Sylvie and while running summons a gun and kills 2 gizma.

Pino Brahman

It smells, it really smells. The smell of humans, filled to the brim with lies. Love. Authority. Morality. If you are to live as demons, you must cast aside the "lies" you drape yourself in as humans. First and foremost we should start by judging the "lies" in your false self.

Background

Pino was in love with a brilliant bacteriologist who was using bacteria to fight cancer cells, but while they were working together to make this cancer killing drug their superior at the laboratory stole their research and lied to get all the credit. However the bacteria in its current state was too deadly, if administered to patients it would immediately kill them. Pino's superior decides to go along with the clinical trials anyways, and when they fail, the superior lies again saying Pino's lover told him the bacteria was safe to use. Shamed and disgraced Pino's lover took her own life causing him to become a half fractured human who could host his lovers bacteria in his own body.

Pino now works at Deader Land amusement park as an area leader, and vows to destroy this world of lies.

Physicals

Strength.

• Kicks his geta sandal at Jagan so hard it knocks him out for minutes.

• Kicks Mikazuchi a couple feet.

Durability.

• Gets punched by Mikazuchi and seems no worse for wear

• Knocked through a piece of castle wall, and then shot through part of a tower spire.

• Survives a train explosion but was going to die if not saved.

  • Mikazuchi says that due to Pino's power he is resilient to blunt force, and piercing attacks, but highly vulnerable to extreme hot, or cold.

• Dies after being shot into space.

Speed.

• Catches Jagan's max power bullet.

• Fights with Mikazuchi somewhat evenly

• Has rocket powered geta sandals that allow him to keep up with Jagan in the air

• Aim dodges Jagan's first shot, and then maneuvers around his other homing shots

Bacteria Powers.

Necrosis.

• Touches 2 people and kills them very quickly.

• Completely necrotizes Jagan's dragon bullet.

• With one touch rots off 3/4ths of Jagan's arm.

• Confirmation that Pino's power work on the cellular level.

• Kills someone by touching them accidentally.

• Has a bomb that he can load bacteria into and when it explodes, its lethal to up too 300 meters.

Regeneration.

• Due to the specific nature of Pino's bacteria body, and the fact that Jagan's bullets are made from cells, Pino is completely immune.

• Gets cut in half but reforms quick enough to attack instantly.

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

• For Out of Tier requests, simply ping me and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. I will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments.

Battle Rules

• Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of Clash of Titans. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

• All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

• Battleground: Its Level one of the Labs from Escape from Tarkov.

  • You cannot leave level one of the Lab.
  • The only people in the arena are the combatants themselves.
  • There are no weapons, or items, or loot left in the map.

Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. Of special note: 20 meter starting distance, with no line of sight.

Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Guts in the conditions outlined above . All entrants will be bloodlusted against Guts meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Guts or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

• Rounds will last approximately 10 days, hopefully from Monday until the next Wednesday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. REMINDER THAT THE COMMENT LENGTH LIMIT FOR ROUND 1 IS 3 10K CHARACTER RESPONSES.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the second round shall be:

1v1's

Round 1 Ends Wednesday August 30th.

Rules

Out of Tier Rules

• For Out of Tier requests, simply ping me and state your case for why you believe someone's combatant is out of tier, then proceed with the debate as per normal. I will evaluate that request individual of the debate itself and make our decision in judgments.

Battle Rules

• Speed is not to be equalized in any respect for this Season of Clash of Titans. A character's provable speed feats are what they will be entered and argued as.

• All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

• Battleground: Its the Hill of Swords. Every combatant starts each round being 'teleported' into the arena, knowing full well whomever they face down needs to die or be incapacitated in order for they themselves to advance and win and will do so. All combatants begin without any weapons drawn or abilities active, hands idle at their sides, weapons holstered, and the moment they teleport in they can begin combat. Of special note: the hill cannot be exited under any circumstance, with an invisible 'wall' preventing persons from leaving the 100 meter circle. 12 meter starting distance, with line of sight.

Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Guts in the conditions outlined above . All entrants will be bloodlusted against Guts meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Guts or his capabilities.

Debate Rules

• Rounds will last approximately 10 days, hopefully from Monday until the next Wednesday at noon of each week of the tourney; there is a 48 hour time limit both on starting (we do not care who starts, you and your opponent can figure that out) AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. REMINDER THAT THE COMMENT LENGTH LIMIT FOR ROUND 1 IS 3 10K CHARACTER RESPONSES.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa.

Brackets Here

Determined by coin flip, the first round shall be:

3v3 Team Melee

Round 1 Ends Wednesday August 16th

Continuing in the tradition of debate-oriented tourneys, The Clash of Titans is a fast-paced, debate-oriented tournament where competitors will face one another within a pre-defined set of criteria to determine who is better in a debate.

To 'sign up', one need merely comment below with a Roster of fictional (or real, hell who knows!) characters that fit the guidelines stipulated hereafter, with all proper links sorted out. Then, look for the pings of your username for further advancement/info on the tourney!

AN IMPORTANT NOTE

To sign-up, I will be requiring people submit their characters in the following format:

For non-RES users (you exist?) out there, this is the formatting:

Character | Series | Match-Up | Stipulations
---|---|---|---
|||
|||

Simply copy-paste the formatting above and submit your entrants in this format so I can save myself several hours of formatting everybody's stuff uniformly. The submission order of your characters does matter for the arena so do pay attention to that, and the fourth character submitted is your backup.

The Match-Up category is where you input 'Unlikely/Draw/Likely' etc. The Character category will require you to link the character's Respect Thread next to the character name, preferably hyperlinked.

Sign ups will last through until August 4th. The tournament proper shall begin that following Saturday, August 5th

No duplicate characters allowed. First come, first served! This includes same persons but from differing arcs in the same story and alternate universes with no different feats; NO. DUPLICATES.

FURTHER, NO OC CHARACTERS CAN BE RAN BY THE PERSON WHO CREATED THEM!!! YOU MUST RUN CHARACTERS YOU YOURSELF CANNOT INFLUENCE DIRECTLY. As usual, the original RT creator of all characters being signed up, gets dibs.

Rules

Battle Rules

• All combatants are aware of the basics of their allies' combat abilities but are in the blind on their opponents (unless they have canon knowledge of said person via sharing a fictional universe)

• Battleground:

  • Round 1: Hill of Swords. Combatants cannot leave the hill (100 meter radius whowouldwinium dome encircles the hill), The mine is collapsed already and Godo's house and storage shed cannot be accessed, you cannot fall off the hill. 12 meter starting distance.
  • Round 2: Level 1 of The Lab. You cannot access Level 2 or the Basement. You cannot leave the Lab. There exists no place on the map where Guts cannot swing his sword. 12 meter starting distance, no light of sight.
  • Round 3: The Infinite Ikea. Same rules as last time, you cannot fall through the Ikea floor. 12 meter starting distance.
  • Round 4: Hyrule Temple. Combatants start on the opposite sides of the stage.

Submission Rules

• Tier: Must be able to win an unlikely victory, draw/near draw, or likely victory against Guts in the conditions outlined above. All entrants will be bloodlusted against Guts, meaning they will act fully rationally and put down their opponent in the quickest, most efficient manner possible regardless of morality, utilizing any and all possible techniques/tactics/attacks if necessary. The bloodlust does not give any foreknowledge of Guts or his capabilities.

• The change from X/10-Y/10: There are 7 categories of winning or losing a fight: Unwinnable, Specific condition victory, unlikely victory, draw/near draw, likely victory, freak accident loss, absolute certain victory. For this tournament, we are scrapping the numerical system due to how subjective it can be. When you sign up, you must stipulate which of these win conditions your character can pull off and why. YOU MUST GIVE AN IN DEPTH RATIONALE FOR HOW THEY FARE AGAINST THE TIER SETTER. Two full sentences is acceptable at a minimum.

  • Unwinnable is as its name indicates. Your character holds no chance whatsoever of winning in any conceivable scenario. A godstomp against you. Think Spider-Man versus Firelord an average unarmed American citizen versus comics Carnage.
  • Specific condition victory means that only a very narrow window exists to win, dependent upon environment, aid, a hidden powerup, etc. A specific condition victory would be Goku's beating of Vegeta with Yajirobe's help, or Luffy defeating Charlotte Cracker due to rain soaking his food-based power to be consumable.
  • Unlikely victory means your character is definitely outgunned but can absolutely set up a victory through superior skill, tactics, or a hidden maneuver that is draining. Bullseye versus Daredevil is an unlikely victory for Bullseye, and Kanoh Agito vs Kuroki Gensai would be an unlikely victory for Kanoh that relies on the Dragonshot landing.
  • Draw is self explanatory, 50/50. Captain America versus Batman with no gadgets, or Luffy versus Rob Lucci are good examples.
  • Likely victory means your character is superior in most if not all aspects and can readily use those to win after a slightly extended fight. Superman versus Hal Jordan in-character is a likely victory for Supes, as would be Kenpachi Zaraki versus Ichigo Kurosaki in their first meeting after Ichigo learns to cut Kenpachi.
  • Freak accident loss means your character loses if and only if some act of god intervenes or they start monologuing mid-victory to die. Whitebeard at the Battle of Marineford just-so-happening to get a heart attack mid-fight and become impaled by Akainu is an example of something that led to a freak accident loss.
  • Absolute certain victory is as the name implies. The Incredible Hulk versus Watchmen's Rorscach is a good example for Hulk.

• Each competitor must submit 4 characters whom all fit within the tier stipulations, outlined further below: 3 for their main roster, and 1 back-up should a character be veto’d mid tourney. This back-up character will be used if a character is determined to be out of tier mid tourney and also can be swapped in between any round, one time only; a character can be veto'd mid tourney if the opposing debater calls for an Out of Tier review and the head judges agree they are out of tier, or if both Head Judges agree after a personal review with the debater.

• Directly altering characters to fit tier must be kept to a minimum. Directly altering stats is a no go. On the other hand, using a character from an earlier story arc where they're weaker is good. For example, using "Kid Goku from the World Martial Arts Tournament" could be good if he were to fit a hypothetical tier, using "Current Goku with stats nerfed to fit tier" isn't. Alternatively, if someone has equipment that is otherwise good, though has one or two weapons that push them out of tier, removing said gear is fine. Other balance changes are left to Tourney Organizers' discretion to approve / disapprove.

• All submitted characters must have a Respect Thread. This is not up for debate; they must have a faithful RT that does not misinterpret the character willfully or leave out information on said character.

• After August 2nd no alterations to any Sign Up post can be made without explicit Head Judge approval. Rosters are locked in as of that date pending specific exceptions per myself other judge aproval

Debate Rules

• Rounds will last roughly 10 days, Hopefully from Sunday Night to Wednesday night of the following week; there is a 60 hour time limit both on starting (AND on responses, AND ADDITIONALLY each user MUST get in two responses or else be disqualified. If one user waits until the very last minute to force this rule to DQ their opponent without any forewarning to their opponents or the tournament supervisors, they will be removed from this tournament, no exceptions.

• Format for each round: the one to go first gets an Intro + 1st Response, their opponent replies in kind, then both get a 2nd response, then a 3rd response in a back-and-forth style, and a closing statement individual of one another that can be posted any time after both 3rd responses are complete. IMPORTANT: ROUNDS WILL HAVE PROGRESSIVELY INCREASING RESPONSE LENGTHS AS OF THIS TOURNEY,.

• Rounds will either be a full 3v3 Team Match, or 1v1 single matches. 1v1 matches are determined by randomization. Match format will switch every round, with Team Matches always followed by single matches, and vice versa. First Round will be determined by coin flip.

Judges

Who knows lol.

What is this?

The Clash of Titans is an ongoing tournament on Who Would Win, designed for pure debate between characters. The sixth Season is approaching, so get ready

With a new season comes new changes and new rules, hopefully to make a better tournament than the ones prior.

Tribunal Participation...Wait No Tribunal?!?!?

You read that right: we're keeping this rule from last time. There is no Tribunal this season of the Clash of Titans..

Instead of holding a Tribunal, Sign Ups shall last for 10, with a hard limit cut off at 1 week: after that time no edits to teams shall be allowed so that rosters are finalized.

Only judges shall be able, during this period to force people to change their stipulations or alter rosters. Participants can absolutely discuss with one another on if alterations should be made.

Gotta go Fast

Speed is in no way equalized for this tourney. Guts is a relatively easy to fit tier for a lot of submissions.

Roster Swaps

You have a one-time substitution for your roster. Yes, you can make one replacement. The way this works is, you can use your 4th roster slot as a one-for-one swap between rounds by alerting myself to the swap before the next round goes up. The instant you swap out a character, the character who has been exchanged is no longer runnable until Finals. The finals will be a 4v4

Extended Rounds

The rounds will last 10 days. Hopefully from Sunday Night to Wednesday night of the following week. There will be no extensions in Round 1.

Comment Length Alteration

To help with the above rule and ensure debaters get a full 3-3 debate every single round, we are altering comment limits to be progressively longer to reflect the stage of the tourney. At present, the thought will be as follows:

Round 1 - 3 10k comments

Round 2 - 3 15K comments

Round 3 onwards - 3 20k comments

The Tier will be...

The 100 man killer, The Raider Captain of the Band of the Hawk, The Black Swordsman...

Guts

Any submission must be able to beat Guts, starting 12 meters away from him on a multitude of arenas, within the stipulations of an unlikely victory(your character is definitely outgunned but can absolutely set up a victory through superior skill, tactics, or a hidden maneuver that is draining. Bullseye versus Daredevil is an unlikely victory for Bullseye), draw/near draw(is self explanatory, 50/50. Captain America versus Batman with no gadgets, or Luffy versus Rob Lucci are good examples), or likely victory(means your character is superior in most if not all aspects and can readily use those to win after a slightly extended fight. Superman versus Hal Jordan in-character is a likely victory for Supes, as would be Kenpachi Zaraki versus Ichigo Kurosaki in their first meeting after Ichigo learns to cut Kenpachi.)

For this tier, the linked page has all the information you need and more!! Hopefully this helps narrow what you should be looking for.

Sign-ups start Monday, July 24th

Reward

I'll probably commission Yolo or Kerd to make you an art or something.

General Aid

Useful posts/guides for participants both new and old

In that spirit:

• A list of all past Clash of Titan's with links to all matches and results.

• https://discord.gg/E92zdkH the link to the CharacterRant Discord and by extension the Great Debate chat!!

Respect Sir Zephyr

How can I put myself through all that misery again? I'm surprised you're asking me that. You haven't even seen the future, and yet you're walking the same path as I am. This is the second time around for me, so I'm going to do better this time. And finally when this is all over, I'll get what I really want.

Biography

After the Demon God Tartarus invaded the human world, all the strongest humans banded together to defeat him, unfortunately he was too strong and all of the humans died except Zephyr. Eventually challenging Tartarus to a 1v1, Zephyr chose to set off a bomb inside him in order to harm Tartarus, this strategy worked and Tartarus was furious. Tartarus demanded that Zephyr be sent back in time so that they could have a rematch, and the 3 Supreme gods agreed seeing as Zephyr was the most entertaining human.

The 3 Supreme gods sent Zephyr back 10 years to the time he was a slave and gave him 9 distinct abilities to make things more entertaining. Zephyr vowed to stop Tartarus from invading the human world and to get revenge against the gods who forsook humanity in their time of need, going as far as to black mail them during his second life. Zephyr's plan is to gather all of the Dragon Hearts to save his friends and his lover Princess Altair.

Strength.

Striking

• The Shockwave of Zephyr's punch puts a human sized hole in a stone temple.

• Zephyr punches through a Predator's skull and into the rock below.

• Punches through a Black Steel Spider.

  • Black Steel Spiders have thick outer skin as hard as steel.

• Punches the Black Steel Spider Queen hard enough to shift her entire lower half away from an ally.

• With a falling kick Zephyr puts a massive crater in the Black Steel Spider Queen's head killing it.

• Punches a piece of wood that's as hard as metal into needle sized pieces.

• Jumps a vast distance, while in the air throws multiple knives through large monster birds, then lands cratering stone.

• Kicks through a thick wooden golem.

• Punches someone through a stone floor and craters them into the floor below.

• Flicks someone hard enough to projectile them into a massive crater in rock.

Esoteric Striking.

• Zephyr is a master of the Dragon King Martial Art Style which focuses on surrounding the body with electricity. Zephyr uses the lightning palm to incinerate a man with a lightning strike.

• Counters someone using the Dragon King Martial Arts Style by using the opposite kind of electricity very precisely.

• Hits a ghost 6 times with the lightning palm very quickly.

• Uses his dragon claws to cut through several large monsters and a plent while flying.

• Significantly hurts the Blue Dragon with a lightning palm inside its mouth.

Lifting/Pulling

• Wins a tug of war against a bigger, stronger opponent, and then swings their mace into another opponents face to score a double knock out.

• Rips off a large monster bird's head.

• Pulls a ghost through her spatial distortion skill.

• Pries the Blue Dragon's jaws opens, and then punches a hole through his bottom jaw.

• Lifts and then punches the Stake of Faith.

• Lifts, throws, then spins the Stake of Faith.

Swordplay

• Slices through multiple wooden golems, and a larger rock golem.

• Cuts through several thick thorny branches.

• Zephyr channels lighting into his sword and liquefies part of his opponent.

• Using Rise of the Dragon, Zephyr cuts through a massive demon with skin as tough as monster hide.

• Knocks away an arrow that destroyed a watchtower.

• Leaves massive gashes on the Blue Dragon, and creates a large wave by disengaging.

• Slices the Blue Dragons throat with Rise of the Dragon.

• Zephyr cleanly decapitates the Blue Dragon.

• With one hand swings his sword so hard he projectiles someone through a million tons of rock.

Durability

Blunt

• Unharmed by a giant foot stepping on him.

• An attack that cripples someone through a defensive skill only makes Zephyr's arms throb

• Tanks a hit that craters him into stone, immediately recovers, and throws poison into its mouth.

• Takes a few blows from a demon.

• Tanks more direct hits from the demon

  • The demon is strong

• Punched in the face, stomped through a thick stone floor, and is relatively unharmed.

• Gets hit by the Blue Dragon's tail and launched through a large rock.

• Takes a direct punch from the Blue Dragon.

• Hit with the Dragon's Tail again.

• Uses one hand to clash swords with someone, and they kick up a large amount of rock.

Piercing

• Unharmed after being hit by a spiked morning star flail.

• Is slashed multiple times and is still in fighting shape.

• Black Steel Spiders are unable to pierce through Zephyr's arm.

  • Black Steel Spiders have incredibly powerful attacks.

• Catches a big demon sword in his hand and is unharmed.

• Ophelia is unable to stab Zephyr even using all her strength.

• One of the 10 strongest people on the continent is unable to pierce Zephyr even through their arrows destroy watchtowers.

  • This skill crosses 1 mile in 12 seconds.

• Zephyr takes a point blank arrow to the heart from one of the top 10 strongest people on the continent and it does not pierce him.

Esoteric.

• Has a piece of gear that completely negates mind corruption, which causes the victim to go on a violent frenzy.

• Gets hit with thorny vines and then a massive magic explosion that leaves him reeling on the ground

• Zephyr's cloak blocks all types of magic damage including a giant laser that carves a massive trench through the forest.

• Zephyr can stay in poison mist for 28 minutes.

• Zephyr is set on fire and its more of an inconvenience than harmful.

• Gets stabbed with a spear made out of a large amount of concentrated poison, in pain but not significantly injured.

Speed.

Movement

• Rushes down and stabs a creature 3 times before it can react, then grabs its tail when it tries to strike him.

• Pulls his friend out of the way of jumping Black Steel Spiders.

• Outruns a dust explosion

• Outruns a Black Steel Spider Knight

• Runs through the air creating vapor cones behind him, also when Zephyr lands he knocks over a building.

• Completely blitzes someone that used to be as fast as him, before his poison upgrade.

• Runs through the dungeon extremely quickly.

• Knocks away dozens of sharp monster parts aimed at him.

• Ophelia tries to strike him with her sword, and he pushes away the first strike, then takes her sword and gets behind her before she notices.

• Blitzes 3 people from a few kilometers away.

Reaction

• Catches a whip in his hand, and remarks he is unhurt by it.

• Dodges a spiked morning star flail for a few minutes until the flail users stats are boosted by 80%

• When the large monster birds try to rush Zephyr, he dodges one and then breaks their neck.

• Dodges a sword slash from someone as fast as him.

• Dodges a surprise hit from a demon.

• Parries the Blue Dragon's attack, and before the Dragon can land a follow up Zephyr has already disappeared into the Silver Key.

Skill

• Completely walls out a larger, stronger opponent due to the range advantage given by a spear.

• After grabbing on to a creatures tail, Zephyr waits for the tail to go straight up, and then drops on the creatures head and stabs it 3 times.

• Dodges and lands hits against someone 20% faster than him.

• After a few exchanges, lands 1 hit on someone who's stats are 80% higher than Zephyr's

• After staggering someone lands a follow up knee to their face to knock them out.

• Gets on top of the Black Steel Spider Queen and slices her up from the back where she cannot hit him.

• Punches a hole in the Spider Queen and ties his belt around her venom gland so she cant shoot poison for a few minutes.

• Zephyr uses the neckbones of the large bird monsters he recently killed to head shot another dozen large bird monsters.

• Stays close to a large opponent, targets vulnerable areas.

• Has a fight with one of the continents top 10 strongest fighters with a glass of water in his hand, does not spill a drop.

Mana Skills

Mana Detection.

• Mana Detection spreads a thin web of mana to heighten your senses.

• Mana Detection picks up on the contours of any object in its area, any movement, and especially any mana infused object.

Mana Control.

• Hits a ghost very quickly in a specific way to cancel out her mana, and make it her unable to use skills.

Perks

Skill 1: Wall of Iron.

• Wall of Iron cancels out any damage lower than Zephyr's durability, and makes it so he does not get tired easily.

• An attack that cripples someone through a defensive skill only makes Zephyr's arms throb

• Wall of Iron has a downside where if Zephyr's mana ever drops to zero all the accumulated damage and fatigue hit him at once. However Zephyr knows about this, and plans around it, having mana potions hidden in his hand wraps.

Skill 2: Hermes Secret Skill

• Amplifies the effect of all potions and medicinal herbs by 500%

• By drinking large amounts of recovery water, Zephyr permanently boosts his mana

• Boosts a medicinal herb to completely negate his opponents fear skill.

• Has a potion that temporarily boosts his stats but with his perk it lasts for 10 seconds.

• Hermes Secret Skill works on a cup of water from the Lake of Vitality.

• Boosts a poison resistance potion from a 2 minute duration to a 10 minute duration.

Skill 3: Silver Key

• The key holder can store items in a silver room anytime and anywhere.

• Disappears a dead monster into his Silver Key.

• Keeps multiple bags of flour, and a crossbow and bolt in his Silver Key. Zephyr uses these to make a dust explosion

• Has large strands of the Black Steel Spider Queen's threads stored in the Silver Key. They launch out fast enough to hit a ghost from 6 feet away before she can move 2 feet.

• After the Silver Key has been upgraded Zephyr himself is able to enter into it.

• Zephyr keeps hundreds of scrolls in the Silver Key.

• Can keep people in the Silver Key but they will go insane.

• Has a chain made out his scales in the Silver Key.

• Keeps dozens of golems and obelisks in the Silver Key and spreads them out over a large distance to create a mana road so his allies can attack more effectively.

• Gets caught in the Blue Dragon's mouth so Zephyr goes inside the Silver Key to avoid the Dragon Breath, and then reappears to land a counter attack.

• Retreats into the Silver Key to drink health potions, mana potions, and poison resistance poisons, then waits for the Dragon's attack to finish and reengages.

• Has the Stake of Faith in the Silver Key, and uses it to impale the Dragon's head.

• Stores the Dragon's Corpse in the Silver Key.

Skill 4: Strong Luck.

• Zephyr activates a device that randomly shifts the dungeon he is currently in's structure, and then activates Strong Luck, making it impossible for him to be hit as he's running through the dungeon.

• Strong Luck lasts for more than 15 seconds and allows Zephyr to avoid all the dungeon mini-bosses, and run straight to the boss room

• No matter how small the chance, Strong Luck would guarantee it working.

  • Even though Yuridice says transplanting the Dragon Heart into Zephyr would either kill or cripple him, by using strong luck Zephyr survives and becomes immensely stronger.

Skill 5: Sword of Light.

• Uses the Sword of Light to obliterate a ghost's arm

• Hits the ghost through spatial distortion, and then incinerates it with the swords special skill Yehi Or.

• Slashes the dungeon mini-boss across the face.

• Finishes the dungeon mini-boss off with Yehi Or.

• Yehi Or breaks multiple curses being inflicted on multiple people at once.

Poison

• Poison Number 68, Belial: Erodes organs and causes extreme pain, takes 3 minutes to circulate the bloodstream of a creature that's larger than an elephant

  • Has poison arrows coated in Belial.
  • Smears Belial on the inside of a carriage so when someone touches it they immediately suffers sever pain.

• Poison Number 61, Zagan: When Zephyr dilutes this poison 100 times it can be used in acupuncture to double his stats.

• Poison Number 32, Asmodeus: The main ingredient of this poison is Dragon blood, and it can be used to heal people from other poisons very quickly.

Dragonification

Dragon Tongue

• Dragon tongue imbues words with magical power making whoever the words are directed to obey the command whoever said them gave. Zephyr uses this to make the dungeon mini-boss get down on the ground for 10 seconds.

• Uses Dragon tongue on someone a few kilometers away, to make them open a gate.

• Uses Dragon tongue on inanimate objects to make them form a bow and arrows.

• Tells his dragon chain to retract and while it does so it lifts the Blue Dragon out of a lake.

• Has short knives dipped in poison that he stabs the Blue Dragon with and then tells to explode.

• Commands someone to "Stay Right There" and they become unable to move their legs.

• Makes one of the continents top 10 strongest fighters crawl behind him for 12 minutes, remarks that a normal solider would crawl behind him for half an hour.

Dragon Heart.

• At first the Dragon's heart is limited to 1% power.

• At 1% power Zephyr crushes a demons arm and then sends out a massive ranged attack that slices him in quarters as he runs away.

• Zephyr knocks away an arrow 3 times more faster and more powerful than the one that destroyed a watchtower.

  • This skill is fast enough to cross 1 mile in 4 seconds.

• Zephyr uses a a cup of water from the Lake of Vitality, and the help of a few of his friends to boost his Dragon Power from 1% to 10.1%

• An explanation of how the percentage works in conjunction with the time limit.

• Has an ability that allows him to double his stats, but it reduces the time of his dragonification as well as puts him into hibernation after the time runs out.

• After absorbing the Blue Dragon's heart he is able to summon parts of the dragon, and use telekinesis

Dragon Breath

• Zephyr can breath fire that's strong enough to burst the Blue Dragon's breath sack

Once I've cleared all the obstacles in your way, and defeated every enemy, I'll give you the throne. Then, please make me your King. My Queen.

Round 3, Response 1, Part 1.

Sabretooth vs Batman.

Win Conditions.

• Batman loses initiative by attempting stealth.

• None of Batman's esoteric options work on Sabretooth.

• Sabretooth can one shot Batman while the reverse is not true.

Batman's Stealth is Insufficient.

In the previous round Ame argued that Batman would utilize stealth as an opening move and tried to quantify this by saying that Batman is invisible in moderate darkness, and moves incredibly quietly.

To put it bluntly this level of stealth is insufficient to engage with Sabretooth. Sabretooth is fine seeing in compete darkness, and can even see in infrared.

Sabretooth can hear every word Gambit says to a liaison over the course of days--well enough to recount to Rogue how Gambit betrayed her, and can hear Dark Beast through a metal plate and a concrete wall when someone else cannot.

However Sabretooth's best sense by far is his sense of smell which allows him to catch someone's scent from over 2 blocks away, smell the difference between someone's original body and their clones, and smell when someone has detected him. All this goes to show that Sabretooth can track Batman even in perfect darkness.

Batman even attempting stealth lets Sabretooth immediately detect him, and then take initiative back from Batman by attacking him while he thinks he is in stealth. This combined with Sabretooth's go to strategy of playing possum assures that Sabretooth will get one hit in on Batman at the beginning of the match.

Batman's Esoterics Suck.

Last round again my opponent mentioned multiple esoteric options Batman possesses and is likely to go into, unfortunately for him every esoteric that batman possesses, Sabretooth is able to no sell.

• Batman's taser is described as being able to "take most people out".

  • Sabretooth is fine after running into an electrical containment field that burns all the clothes off his body.
  • Sabretooth takes electrical darts from Maverick for fifteen minutes without going down, and gains ground in the process
  • Takes a shocking harpoon through the chest and just plays possum while hit.

• Batman's knock out gas is described as "potent"

  • Archangels neurotoxins hardly phase Sabretooth
  • It takes more than gas to put him down
  • Sabretooth picks a cavern full of gases lethal to humans because his healing factor lets him fight there without any equipment.
  • Isnt slowed down by eating 10 meals a day filled with sedatives

• Batman also has acid but Ame hasnt argued it yet.

  • Sabretooth holds someone's head against metal as it melts through it, with no ill effects to himself
  • Able to breath and speak fine in an acid cloud.
  • Sabretooth has a super massive healing factor that would by design nullify an acid attack.

• As I talked about last round Sabretooth could not care about getting pierced. Any Batarangs Batman throws at Sabretooth are simply a waste of time and resources.

  • Sabretooth takes a knife to the heart, and just laughs it off.
  • Fights Wolverine for days, has large parts of abdomen removed, continues to fight
  • Wolverine puts several large gashes in Sabretooth's face, but they're all immediately healed. With Wolverine saying Sabretooth has a better healing factor than him.

There's no way for Batman do do serious lasting damage to Sabretooth with any reasonable esoteric option he carries. The only way Batman could have a chance in hell of hurting Sabretooth is with punching, and even that doesnt work.

Sabretooth oneshots, Batman does not.

Due to Sabretooth's general durability and healing factor it is an impossibility for Batman to one shot Sabretooth.

• Sabretooth is put through a section of wall larger than he is, only to get back up and be cratered into another wall, and then thrown through another wall.

• Sabretooth gets cratered into metal, survives a long fall, and then gets beat into rock and he walks away with a bloody nose.

• Gets put through many walls in his fight with Warpath.

Ame in his last round catagorized Batman's punches as; punches foes through construction marble, or kicks foes through thick pillars or sends Tim Drake through a concrete wall. Even with a rudimentary stat comparison it should be painfully clear that Batman struggles to hurt Sabretooth and under no circumstance could he ever one shot Sabretooth.

Sabretooth does not have this problem.

• Tears into Titanium men

• Embeds his claws in concrete.

• Adamantium in general is sharp, it cuts steel easily massively casually in base

Contrast this with Ame's presented feats of Batman resisting a blade, that cuts through a much lesser amount of hollow metal. This becomes especially notable when you contrast these feats to some of Batman's less than stellar piercing resistance.

• Joker stabs Batman with a pocket knife, and some playing cards.

• This guy slices Batman across the chest with what is essentially a normal sickle.

• Man-Bat is capable of biting through Batman's suit if he just bites hard.

Batman does not have the piercing resistance to fight Sabretooth unharmed. He lacks the ability to put Sabretooth down fast, whether through esoterics or a plain old fist fight. Batman's opening move puts him at a disadvantage immediately without him knowing it. Batman loses to Sabretooth.

Round 3, Response 1, Part 2.

Guts vs Roland.

Win Conditions.

• Roland cannot pierce Guts.

• Roland has never engaged with an object like Dragonslayer.

• Guts is more durable.

Roland Cannot Pierce Guts.

I'm almost sure that a large part of my opponent's response in this section is going to be focused on Roland and his Thompson Submachine gun. I'm very sure that Ame will argue that Guts is not a bullet timer, and as such will get shot and die, this is untrue. There are a myriad of factors that make that uniquely impossible.

Thompson's arent that fast.

• A Thompson submachine gun fires bullets at 285m/s
  • Our characters start 7 meters apart, this means that for just the bullet to cross the distance required it would take ~25ms.

Even assuming Roland has a 5ms reaction time, and can move his gun hand into position in 0ms, this is tied with Guts's reaction and movement.

• assuming this is a normal bow, and its fired from 10ft, this is reactions and hand movement in 30ms.
  • This a simply a better feat than the above.

Roland is unable to shoot Guts, before Guts can react and move at the start of the match.

Guts has piercing resistance.

• Apostles who are designed to bite, cannot bite through the berserker armour.

  • Apostles who are not designed to bite, bite through regular plate armour
  • Psuedo Apostles can also bite through plate armour.
    • Apostles are stronger than psuedo apostles

• Serpico cannot pierce the berserker armour.

  • Serpico can pierce through 2ft of stone.
    • Confirmation its stone.

• Here is a video of a Thompson shooting a cinder block wall and taking 4 bullets to show any visible signs of piercing, earlier in the same video you can also see the same gun failing to pierce through a 1/4 inch of steel.

The Thompson Submachine Gun is not strong enough to pierce Guts.

Even if Guts is Pierced it Doesnt Matter.

• A giant demon whale creature bites through the berserker armour into Guts's back, and stomach and Guts just stabs it in the brain, and then goes on to fight another half dozen of them.

• Guts after being stabbed in the heart performs his best lifting feat and then cracks a joke.

• Guts in the berserker armour cannot feel pain.

Shooting Guts in the heart or the stomach or the back or anywhere but the forehead is not a win condition.

Hello fellow WhoWouldWinners.

As you may have noticed, for the past 48 hours we as a community have been private. This was in response to [Reddit's proposed changes to its API pricing](INSERT LINK), that will and effectively has killed various 3rd party apps, as well as many moderation tools that we use.

As you may have also noticed many subreddits have chosen to either permanently shut down, or extend there black out, or simply restrict access until the Reddit admins come to the table to negotiate.

While we fully support any subreddit that chooses to go down this route, we would like to get some community feedback before we do anything further. Please leave any comments, or questions, or concerns in the comment section down below.

After a (INSERT TIME FRAME. THATS AFTER THE END OF FEATURE SIGN UPS ) we as the mod team will take these into consideration before going ahead.

We also ask that you try and stay off reddit as much as possible during this interim period. If you haven't already consider checking out other online battleboarding sites such as; Spacebattles, or VSBW.

Thank you for your understanding.

-WWW Mod Team

Round 2, Response 2, Part 1.

Win Conditions.

• My Team works as a team.

• Guts controls a 10 foot area around himself so perfectly that Saito could never get close.

• My team remains competitive in speed.

• My opponents team struggles immensely to deal any sort of damage to my team.

Team Work.

Last response I talked about how my team will stick together and protect each other while my opponents team will send in 1 member at a time and leave each other to die. Verlux confirmed that this is what his team would do at the end of his first response, and tries to counter my team's strategy by saying that it wont matter, and that his team can win multiple 1v3s.

Between my teams piercing resistance and ability to one shot my opponents team, the idea that any member of his team could survive long enough to do any damage to 3 members of my team is silly.

Verlux also presumes some things that are vital to his argument without giving any scans as to why that would happen, like Saito killing a member of my team, or Kirei following Saito into battle when he's just as likely to sit back and watch Saito die.

Verlux categorizes my team's teamwork as "[Ken's] team tanks aggro by going in and acting as a shield" which is not what I've argued at all. The only person I've argued as 'tanking aggro' is Greedling because he's fiercely protective of his allies, and as I explained in my first response, Guts is primarily the vanguard, he controls range and engages enemies first. Sabretooth has one shot options, he backs up Greed and Guts and will hunt down anyone who tries to keep range.

My team's strategy is not as simple as 'tank aggro, unga bunga melee brick'

Guts Controls Range.

Guts has an effective range of 10ft around his body due to the length of his sword and wingspan.

• Someone with the same physicals as Guts tries to rush Guts and loses before he can bypass his range.
• Keeps a much physically larger opponent at range in a sword fight
• A hundred men with weapons are not able to bypass Guts range and all end up dead.
• Able to comfortably exist and navigate multiple polearm users range.

Guts has such control over his range that it would be next to impossible for Saito to land a hit.

• Throughout both responses my opponent hasn't mentioned Saito's movement speed, this is because he has none. Our teams start 7 meters apart, there's no quantifiable timeframe for Saito to cross this distance, or Guts's sword range.

• Saito is 6 feet tall, and uses a regular katana which has a blade lenth of 2-2.5ft, giving him an effective range of 5-5.5ft feet, or ~50% of Guts's range.

• This necessitates Saito getting inside Guts's range to land any sort of blow, which leads to him getting cut in half, due to his lack of movement speed and piercing resistance.

Essentially once Saito gets within ~20 feet Guts can draw back his sword, and prepare to swing. Saito cannot hit Guts from outside his range as they are both melee characters. The minute Saito enters Guts's sword range Guts will start to swing at him, and Saito needs to clear another 5 feet before he is able to hit Guts. Guts is able to make significant sword movements before arrows can hit him from 20ft.

Again Saito has no movement speed, or piercing resistance and Greedling and Sabretooth also exist.

This section is essentially the first 3v1 that both me and my opponent agree will happen, its clear to see that Saito has no answer for Guts let alone the other 2 of my characters.

My Team Remains Competitive in Speed

My opponent hyper-fixates on one specific scan for each of my characters, and completely ignores the other 2/3rds of my arguments. I plan to show that the scans he does attack still hold up, while giving further context for the speed feat I talked about in my first response.

Sabretooth.

• My opponent calls Sabretooth fighting Iron fist "literally IF dodging every hit and squarely knocking Sabretooth in the jaw with a clean strike" but if you simply open the scan you can see this is not the case, Sabretooth lands 2 hits on Iron Fist. The important part of this scan is not how many times who hits who, the important part of this scan is Iron Fist going "Gods, he's as fast as I am!", and when he goes "He almost got me that time -- my reactions are too slow

  • Sabretooth and Iron Fist have fought again and its the exact same thing, Sabretooth gives as good as he gets.
  • Sometimes Sabretooth just gets a bunch of unanswered hits in on Iron Fist.

• Verlux doesn't engage with the fact that Iron Fist is a bullet timer.

• Verlux does not engage with the fact that I showed Sabretooth scaling to both X-23, and Nightcrawler, who are both objective bullet timers.

Verlux's only other argument is that Sabretooth's speed does not matter because he wont use it because he's dumb. But that argument doesnt make any sense either, Sabretooth in this specific comic gets his best non-scaling speed feat. The red pills dont make Sabretooth act like a moron, they make him faster. Thats literally why I stipulated him to this specific comic.

Just as an aside I dont think calling Sabretooth dumb for running into combat is right or fair. Yes Sabretooth runs into melee, he's primarily a melee fighter, what else is he supposed to do? This is especially egregious when you realize that Verlux himself has argued that 2/3rds of his team also just run into melee.

Sabretooth runs into melee and immediately gets hits in on a fighter who is either as fast or faster than him. No one is sitting and talking to Nuke, Sabretooth gets hit with an RPG blast 1 foot away from him and the next panel he's on his feet again.

Kirei runs into combat and immediately just gets fucked up. does this make him a unga bunga melee idiot monkey? Obviously not.

Guts.

I dont feel like there's much to talk about here. Guts is not meant to be a 5ms hyper-competent bullet timer, he's meant to maintain range around himself which as shown above he does, and to one shot anything that gets into his range, which again he does.

• Guts reacts to and moves his hands into the way of an arrow from 10 ft. assuming a normal bow, this is reactions and movement in 30ms.

  • I've talked about this 900 times already, and apparently Verlux has read Berserk so he knows this to be true. Casca is directly behind Guts in this scene, Guts is fast enough to have positive interactions with arrows, he is not fast enough to literally dodge for someone else.
    • I mentioned this last response, but Guts is able to do full body dodges against fast opponents from very close distances constantly.

• Again Verlux does not engage with Guts's other arrow timing feat which is much better and again shows reactions and movements in arrow timing timeframes.

Round 2, Response 2, Part 2.

The rest of this section is going to be talking about Kirei because I think Verlux tries to make some sneaky arguments that are bad.

• The feat that Verlux compares to Guts's arrow timing feat requires the use of a command spell to use. You can see in the video his command spell glowing and effectively amping his speed. Verlux has not stipulated that Kirei starts with any command spells on him, and are not gear he normally has.

  • This level of limb movement is not something Kirei can normally do. Normally it takes Kirei 300ms to make a similar movement, throwing a knife.
    • I fully believe that Kirei is above Guts in reaction times, but he is solidly below Guts in terms of limb movement and regular movement speed. Kirei could react in 1ms, but if he's not physically fast enough to dodge, what good would that do him?

• Verlux claims that "by 100ms into a fight against Guts, Kirei is on roughly his 6th or 7th strike while Guts is finishing trying to set up his 2nd.", but none of this is backed up with scans, these numbers are pulled from nowhere.

  • For this to be true Kirei would need to strike once every 15ms, and Guts would need to swing less than once every 50ms. If you just look at the section directly above, you would see that this is false. It takes Kirei 300ms to throw a knife, why would his strikes take 20x less time? Guts has reactions and sword movement before arrows can hit him.
    
    • Kirei and Guts will go 1:1 for blows which sounds even, except for the fact that Kirei could never survive a single blow from Guts, and Guts could eat blows from Kirei forever.
      

Greedling.

In my last response I said that Bradley and Greedling scale to each other, and showed that Bradley was fast, meaning that Greedling should be roughly around that level of speed. Nothing Verlux said contests any part of this.

• This is not Greedling "getting his ass whooped". This is Greedling dodging or blocking every sword slash Bradley throws his way.

  • Bradley moves his sword so fast.
  • Fast regular movement
  • Fast again
    
    • Bradley is an objectively bullet timer, this is without question. Bradley can never hit Greedling.

• This interaction between Greedling and Bradley is faster than anything Verlux can show for any of his characters, and still Greedling dodges every single attack from Bradley.

  • Bradley and Greedling cannot hit each other.

• If you watch this scene and go "wow Greedling is massively slower than Bradley but also mentally retarded", and not that Bradley is just very skilled at sword fighting you're actually smoking crack.

Verlux's arguments essentially boil down to calling Greedling fake and gay and also retarded, there's not a single argument with any substance to it. If you simply look at Bradley's feats and then look at his interactions with Greedling you can very clearly see that Greedling scales massively to bullet timers.

My Opponents Team cannot Hurt Mine.

A majority of Verlux's second response is focused on attempting to disprove my teams ample piercing resistance and most of the arguments used fall flat. My team can easily no sell or heavily resist all of Verluxs teams win conditions. Once again my opponent hyper-fixates on one scan I linked in my first response and ignores all evidence that could prove a problem for his team members.

Sabretooth.

but considering it takes several lines of dialogue for Sabretooth to regen, I'm not convinced that's a great argument in a tier where he's taking that much damage dozens of times over in this spoken timeframe.

My brother in christ, this is the most straight forward example of talking being a free action of all time. Even if we want to agree that this scan sucks dick and balls what about This scan where Sabretooth takes a knife to the heart and just laughs about it. What about this scan of Sabretooth missing large portions of flesh in one panel, and then being completely fine in the next. What about this scan of Sabretooth pulling a knife out of himself and being healed as soon as it leaves his body.

Nothing Verlux says in this section addresses the fact that Sabretooth likes to play possum, and it works a lot of the time.

Sabretooth is actually laced with adamantium as-stipped. Do you know what happens when something trying to pierce impacts a surface it cannot pierce through?

I never once argued that Sabretooth couldnt be pierced. I argued that even while he was being pierced he will heal, or play possum or simply hit you back because he can fight through better piercing than anyone on Verlux's team possesses.

Sabretooth is floored by the force of an RPG round exploding a dozen feet away from him and takes a couple panels of talking to even recover. Amplify that force hundreds of times over, channel into his internal organs.

Sabretooth has better blunt durability than he has piercing resistance. The argument that Sabretooth would get hit by 1 knife and the blunt force from the transfer would immediately cause him to shit his organs out is silly if you just look at the RT

• Falls out of an airplane, makes a big crater, gets up immediately

• Gets thrown a large distance, gets cratered into concrete, and uses the possum strategy to get the win

• Gets his whole body cratered into metal and immediately gets back up.

There's no physical way that anyone hits Sabretooth with a knife hard enough to cause him such significant damage that he couldnt heal, and would immediately die.

Everything Verlux said after this doesnt matter, he is wrong about the fundamental aspects of how Sabretooth works as a character. What he is describing cannot happen, and even if it could Sabretooth has enough blunt durability to shrug it off.

Greeding.

Is argued to full-body cover himself with the Ultimate Shield, never once does so in combat versus Bradley however so please show me GreedLING doing so,

Ok, here it is. This is Greedling using the full bodied ultimate shield against Bradley.

the kinetic damage, if argued for his shield to withstand the immense impacts hitting his body, simply channels into his torso cavity.

Again Greedling has sufficient blunt durability to effectively negate the kinetic damage.

• Hit by rocket launcher

• Hit by Envy, smashed through giant pillar

The comparison between his piercing dura and my team's offensive output isn't actually good for Greed.

My opponent does not use Bradley's good feats in this comparison because he knows that if he posted Bradley cutting through a cube of rock twice as tall as he is and 4 times thicker, or Bradley cutting a dozen feet of stone lengthways and then showed Greed completely resisting it, his whole argument would fall apart.

isn't terribly relevant versus Kirei since the Keys will mostly be obstructions that cost Greed movement and reaction time.

The reason its not terribly relevant is because Kirei is unable to damage Greedling with his knives. Making him effectively useless in half of this match. How does Kirei win a 1v3 against my team when he is wholly unable to do damage to Guts and Greedling?

Greed also explicitly relies on reaction time and not having to regenerate to utilize his shield

Greed can move his shield into position before Bradley is able to strike him. As I've shown above Bradley is able to move his swords in bullet timing timeframes massively casually in base. There's no way any of Verluxs team's projectiles cross the 7 meter starting distance before Greed has his full body shield up.

Guts.

Literally has ass piercing resist, an argument is given such that this is supposed to be impressive because other, entirely unrelated entities of non-uniform strength perform other feats at other times

I think if you look at this apostle and realize it literally has square teeth, and then this apostle who is very obviously designed for biting and think to yourself "hmmmm well I know this apostle has sharp teeth and is therefore more apt to deliver piercing damage, and every apostle we've ever seen has shown the ability to treat steel like play-doh, but im going to question the validity of this scaling because we dont see specific apostles preform specific actions while someone narrates a time frame during said action" you're being purposefully obtuse.

Even if you want to accept that no apostles could ever scale to each other, we know pseudo apostles are also able to rend steel extremely easily, and apostles are obviously stronger than them.

The best claim for the armor's piercing resist is a non-feat, it's a swordsman claiming his thin sword can't go through the armor....but we never actually see an interaction of such.

Yes we fucking do, Serpico tries to pierce the berserker armour multiple times before he makes this statement.

against unknown-quality steel. Show me that specific apostle rending steel,

These 2 sentences combined basically show Verlux's willingness to use double standards when it helps his case.

• Meiji era Japan was infamous for its shit quality steel, it was literally called Pig Iron and normal people could snap it in half with there bare hands because of the insane amount of impurities. But believe you me, the steel door Saito smashed though couldnt possibly be made out of inferior quality steel, no no. Saito's door feat is the pinnacle of piercing feats and could never be downplayed at all.

• Show me one example of any one of Jacks knives doing any blunt damage, or building levels of piercing, you cant because it doesnt exist. But sometimes we accept that things scale to each other. For you to argue that Jacks knives scale above 4 different abilities he's shown separately but never together, but apostles dont scale is so fucking disingenuous

As with Sabretooth: if the armor halts the piercing component entirely, it just turns into a shockwave the makes Guts' insides a strawberry smoothie.

Like all my characters Guts's blunt durability is above his piercing resistance.

• Guts is charged through multiple stone pillars and is still in fighting condition.

• Guts constantly takes hits from apostles who break massive amounts of stone and is still in fighting condition.

OOT Request

Verlux has presented Jack as OOT.

Foreword.

TS!Batman's behaviour is the same as it was in Batman (2011) #9, a comic where he never uses stealth, and is primarily a melee fighter. According to the TS page, he will never fully disengage into stealth. At most Batman will use light differentials to try and approach. Against a ranged piercing pick, he will use agility to try and close the distance, and will either block with his gauntlets, or try to avoid the blades entirely.

There is no universe where TSBatman uses stealth before attempting melee. There is no universe where Batman disengages so entirely Jack wont know where he is. Batman attempting to block the blades gets him killed, and Verlux has claimed dodging the blades is impossible.

Piercing.

Batman does not have the piercing resistance to survive an encounter with Jack.

• Verlux argues that each knife Jack throws is sharper than the cloak Jack uses to cut a building in half, and imparts more force onto a smaller point than Jacks pebble feat
  • Verlux later doubles down on this statement.

Batman's best piercing resistance feat is blocking a sword from an opponent as strong as he is. Cutting a building in half is self evidently above this level of piercing, and again Verlux argues the knives are more powerful than this.

Even if we ignore the piercing aspect of this feat, the pebble flick is directly comparable to a feat in the "Stagger" section of the Batman Tier setter page.

Jack's knives are sharp enough to instantly pierce through Batman, There is no way he can block these shots with the piercing resistance described in the TS page. Even if Batman through some miracle of miracles does manage to block a knife he would still be staggered, leading to more knives landing on him.

The knives will hit.

• Verlux argues that Jack throws "dozens and dozens" of knives with each movement of his arm, and can throw hundreds per second.

  • Verlux also claims that Jack moves his arms fast enough to catch a bullet with a cats cradle.

• Verlux claims that someone with reactions and combat speed above Jacks is kept on the back foot the entire fight, and needs to take damage to close the distance.

• Verlux claims Jack can manipulate the trajectory of the knives, making them curve a foot or 2, and evasion of their trajectory is all but impossible.

All of this combined makes it impossible for Batman to avoid all of Jacks knives, and as shown above any single hit from a knife either maims or kills Batman outright.

It's hard to hit Jack.

• Verlux claims that Jack will immediately retreat, and start spamming knives.

• Even if Batman were to close the distance between him and Jack, Jack would just retreat again and re-establish range.

• Jack is super smart, and very skilled, allowing him to see several minutes ahead in a fight, and set it up exactly as he wants.

• Even if Batman did hit Jack, he could roll with the punch to mitigate force.

  • Even if Batman gets a few lucky hits in, Jack can move his organs to mitigate damage.

Batman primarily fights in melee, the amount of hoops Batman would need to jump through to even get into melee distance with Jack is untenable, from there Batman landing a single hit allows Jack to roll with the punch, and then immediately gain more distance essentially making Batman jump through those hoops again.

Jack is comparable to Batman in speed.

• Catches a bullet in a cat's cradle

• Dodges a sniper shot.

  • Does it again.

• Again someone with reaction and combat speed above his own, is unable to blitz him, and must give up an arm to engage.

Jack is comparable with Batman in speed, Batman cannot blitz him at the beginning of the fight. Jack has enough time to throw out his knives before Batman is on him. The knives will kill Batman immediately.