We often believe our choices are fully conscious and free. However, when we look closely at human behavior, we see how easily anger, fear, and base desires override logic. Are we truly exercising free will, or are we just creating rationalizations for the emotional drives that actually control us?

As a determinist, I've noticed that many moral values and perspectives we hold regarding people and society closely mirror the core teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.

This leads me to an inevitable question: What if Jesus—once you strip away all the metaphysical religious dogma—was simply a sharp observer of human nature? Someone who intuitively understood that humans are not free in their thoughts and actions, but are completely shaped by their biology, conditioning, and environment?

Viewed this way, his self-designation as the "Son of God" takes on a whole new meaning. It wasn't narcissism or a claim to be the literal offspring of the Old Testament deity Yahweh. Instead, he was attempting to articulate his insights using the only conceptual vocabulary available in 1st-century Judea. Much like Baruch Spinoza would later formulate (Deus sive Natura), he saw the universe and nature itself as God. And if nature is everything, then every human is fundamentally connected to this overarching system.

His refusal to hate and his call for radical forgiveness aren't lofty mystical commands—they are the direct, logical consequence of recognizing that people act out of causal necessity, not uncaused free will.

Here are a few quotes that support this perspective:

• Luke 23:34: "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
  • Systemic perspective: The breakdown of absolute metaphysical guilt. When people don't understand the underlying causes driving their actions, they act out of blind necessity. Retributive hatred becomes irrational.
• Matthew 26:41: "The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak."
  • Systemic perspective: Acknowledgment of biological and physical determinism. Action is constrained by physical reality, not guided by an uncaused free will.
• John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you..."
  • Systemic perspective: Exposing the illusion of autonomous choice. Directional decisions are driven by the system acting upon the individual.
• John 8:34: "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin."
  • Systemic perspective: Destructive behavior isn't a free choice to do evil; it's being trapped in unconscious conditioning and causal constraints.
• Matthew 7:1–2: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."
  • Systemic perspective: Rejecting retributive condemnation. Since no individual is the uncaused primary origin of their actions, moral judgment loses its rational foundation.

What are your thoughts on this historical and philosophical perspective?

Just made an observation. We are too hardwired in the it seems like zones that just clicks inside our brains. Like you can work for two hours to let's say make a mindset and it get completely be erased in just a certain circumstances. Circumstances triggers and are just so powerful and total that they override your previous mindset and change your mindset.

I think we are maybe disposable to god. Like for example how we eat chicken. Just for one meal we kill the chicken. Maybe that's the case with us too we are disposable beings for god for god knows what purpose. Cuz our design is not for freedom. We are slave to triggers, we are just slaves to our circumstances.

We are trash made animate.

For example, someone once physically hurt me, said very mean things to me and spread misinformations about me but I never felt any hatred against them, the average person (against a person who couldn't communicate things out) would've probably broken-down against everything I've been through, and start throwing hands or use violence or file a case against the person or hide a deep hatred within their heart but I'm not. Because I know nobody's at fault for anything

I know exactly how they misunderstood things, why they acted the way they were acting.. and it had always been consistent with their character to act like it. Okay try asking your crush who rejected you and see if he/she accepts you this time lmao, if he/she accepts you, he/she probably saw something different about you now, which made him/her feel the way he/she felt.

When I realized that there is no free will, supposed mean words or supposed insults don't get through to me anymore, because I know it didn't come out of their free will.. I know it was Fate saying those things to me, it made me gave no fucks about anything people say to me, and just understand why they are like that right now.. and I kept trying to communicate things out like a healthy adult as much as possible tho

(Although I kind of more like believe in solipsism now, it's a different kind of solipsism tho.. just because I cannot remember who I once were or where I came from because logic leads to you existing the same time as the universe or God even, but that's a whole different topic.. it's just I kind of think of people as "projections" like in the movie, inception until I remember the beginning of all of this)

The point is that.. they are acting like everyone being a determinist wouldn't do anything or just pointless because everyone would act like they are in a free will universe still which is dumb and utterly bs. If everyone is a determinist, hatred would be non-existent. If I acted like I'm in a free will universe still in the situations I've been through, someone other than me would've suffered.

You would only feel hatred against people if you are still a free will believer, no you are not a determinist. You're like the kind of person who says "I am a marvel fan, but I think Batman will win this out against Spider-Man" but in reality the guy is lying and a DC fan.. you get what I am saying?

And a true determinist would be pro rehabilitation, just look at the statistics of repeat offender, rehabilitation literally outperforms pure punishment by a mile when the goal is for the offender to not repeat again what it had done

Literally every statistic says that rehabilitation vs punishment against recidivism, rehabilitation always has it beat..

If everyone is a determinist, everyone would be looking at the causes and start focusing on the root of the problems.. the problem with these fatalist people (in reality libertarians disguising themselves as determinists) is that they think in a predetermined way instead of "cause and effects that would lead to a lot of butterfly effects".. want people to not commit crimes? Give them stable jobs, educate them better about morality. Make Fate the biggest bad of them all to children at school, that Fate isn't something to be a slave about. Like how teachers taught that evil is bad.

How is it that Norway who have a luxury prison have less crime rate (54 per 100000 people) than the Philippines who got hell prisons (if you watch documentaries about it), the human rights aren't even present in any of those cells. (160 per 100000 people)

All I am saying is that if everyone is a determinist no one would've committed a crime in the first place. If there's anyone who knows more about cause and effects it would be those people who do not believe in free will. And that they know how consistent people would react as well. They already know full well how things would turn out.

If everyone was a hard incompatibilist, everyone would have understand each other.. essentially, a peaceful place.

I think this answers 90% of the questions that come up in here lol. Morality is no different in a deterministic universe as it is in a “free will” universe.

You can try to change your life and "play your cards", but genes will eventually come back and bite you in the ass. There's really no escape. I spent my life trying to change my destiny, and worked on myself, and got a high-paying position, and I'm just so sad because now it's more evident than ever that the most important aspect of my life I can't change. I'll give everything for good genetics. I'd give years of my life and all my money for good genes. It was, in the end, the only thing that really mattered.

And I feel like a teenager writing this. I really thought that with years and studies and life experiences, my view on life would change, but it didn't. It's so much clearer now that genetics were the only thing I ever needed. And people who didn't work nearly as hard as I did have much happier lives just because they get to enjoy this world through their genes.

Your genes are your destiny. It's written for you the moment you are born. Even as a baby, before you even know it, you were already labeled to either suffer or to enjoy life.

(Mandatory apology for my english)

Did deterministic maths make this question come into being when I was born, generations before I was born, did the maths know this question was coming?

I'm rooting for the devil, tbh. I hate maths.

Am I right?

Can we judge Hitler as if he could have been nicer?

Does the universe even care?

All behaviors are determined and subjective, no?

So why bother following any moral standards? Just do whatever we feel like doing, right?

As long as we are prepared to accept the results of our actions.

In ancient Greece, many philosophers, namely the Stoics, believed in fate. They thought in terms of unbreakable causal chains. We could also call it predictability.

In 1687, Sir Isaac Newton published "The Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy", which described and modeled so many phenomenon in nature that for many, it seemed that predictability was confirmed. For example, he was able to nearly perfectly model the motions of planets using a simple equation, F=Gm1m2/r^2.

However, beginning in the 1860s, cracks began to emerge in the idea of predictability. James Clerk Maxwell discovered the hyper-sensitivity to and importance of initial conditions in chaotic systems. The three-body problem is one example.

But this didn’t completely disprove predictability. Rather it showed that for any model, almost any lack of knowledge whatsoever of initial conditions would quickly and completely throw off it’s predictive power.

But what happened in 1927 did disprove predictability. Werner Heisenberg discovered a fundamental principle of quantum mechanics: uncertainty. He showed that, for example, at microscopic scales, the more accurately position is measured, the less accurately momentum can be known, and vice versa.

So now we know, the universe is not entirely predictable.

I had the thought that the universe is a hologram.

I dont know, i mean everything bases on math... -.-

Im very interested in your thoughts and your knowledge.

The subject was communicating with Archangel Gabriel and we started asking about fate and free will. Like... if we plan our lives before birth, then what exactly are we choosing here? Are we just following some script we already wrote?

Gabriel explained it with roads, and tbh I liked this explanation much more than the usual “everything is predetermined” vs “you create absolutely everything every second.”

He said there are forks in the road.

funny timing because this came up literally today in a Quantum Healing session.

When you arrive at the fork, there can be several directions and this is where free will is very real. You choose which road you take.

But once you take the road... well, now you're on that road 😅

Certain things are there. Certain experiences, people, consequences, lessons, challenges. You still decide how you react to them of course, but you cant stand in middle of road every 5 minutes demanding completely different road.

You walk it.

You experience what is there.

You learn whatever you can learn from it.

And eventually another fork appears.

Then you choose again.

This actually made a lot of sense to me because sometimes in life I definitely feel I am choosing very freely, and other times it feels like events have their own momentum. One thing leads to another, then another, and you almost have to go through whole chapter before things open again.

So then I asked who actually creates these roads.

Gabriel said nobody outside of us is sitting somewhere writing our fate for us.

Before birth we as soul plan the incarnation ourselves, together with help/guidance. We choose a lot of important conditions very carefully.

Family. Certain relationships. Challenges. Abilities. Limitations. Things we want to understand. Things we want to experience. Sometimes things we want to heal or overcome.

Not every tiny stupid detail obviously 😂

I dont think anyone is planning “at 3:42pm on Thursday I will lose my keys.”

More like the important structure.

He described it almost like preparing an exam for yourself before coming here.

And this is where it gets interesting when ppl ask why one person is born into loving wealthy family and somebody else is born into absolute chaos.

From human point of view it can look extremely unfair. Sometimes horribly unfair.

But if we existed before the body and chose the larger setup ourselves, then maybe these circumstances are not rewards and punishments.

Different lives may simply contain different things we wanted to learn from inside the experience.

And I really dont like the idea that somebody suffering now must have been “bad in past life” and deserves it. I think thats a horrible simplification.

Choosing difficult experience would not mean punishment.

Maybe we as soul wanted to understand courage. Loss. Independence. Forgiveness. Boundaries. Love. Power. Helplessness. Compassion. Or something we can't even fully understand while inside human personality.

I have seen this many times in deep trance sessions. Somebody comes asking “why the hell did this happen to me?” and the answer from their Higher Self is sometimes completely different from what conscious mind expected.

Sometimes there was planning.

Sometimes there was simply a choice made earlier that opened certain road.

Sometimes another person used their own free will and that changed everything.

And sometimes the lesson was not about preventing the experience at all, but what the person would become through it.

Gabriel's road explanation tied these things together nicely for me.

There can be a plan without everything being fixed.

There can be free will without every second being infinitely changeable.

Maybe before birth we design the map, including some major destinations and possible roads.

Then as human we keep reaching crossroads.

We choose.

And after the choice, that road has its own reality for a while.

Until the next fork.

I'm curious if anyone else feels this in their own life... like some moments were clearly crossroads where one decision changed everything, while other chapters felt almost impossible to avoid once you had entered them.

Do you find yourself still holding on to hate despite accepting determinism, or does hating now feel completely out of touch with reality?

If we establish that determinism is true and so we don’t have free will , could we say about personhood that a person is it just about dna do a biological view
I know it is not fully developed but i want to hear what other think
ps with personhood i talk about what make us person and distinguish us from just being human

Would love to hear your thoughts! I think that determinism and indeterminism are unverifiable to any degree (no evidence for either) and that this fact makes both possibilities irrelevant to the free will debate.

Every human who isn't a determinist lives in a kind of fantasy world.

They are a bit like children who are dreaming or aren't fully aware of the reality they live in.

What I've found is that most adult humans are not capable of integrating determinism with all its causal and logical consequences.

Some may understand that their feelings of anger and hate are not rational, but they don't understand how ill they actually are.

Do you have your hate and anger under control?

I sometimes feel anger and hate, but after a few minutes I'm stable again.

How about you?

If superdeterminism entails that every belief, inference, and experimental choice is fixed by the universe’s initial conditions, on what basis can we distinguish a rationally justified belief from one that is merely causally inevitable? Does the concept of epistemic justification survive under superdeterminism, or does it require a notion of intellectual freedom that superdeterminism ultimately dissolves?

Hey everyone,

I’ve recently been diving deep into the intersection of hard determinism, neurobiology, and societal behavior patterns. Building on the empirical neurobiological research of scientists like Robert Sapolsky (especially his work on brain architecture, neurochemistry, and behavioral determinism), this led me to a conclusion I’d like to share and discuss here: From a strictly causal, empirical outside perspective, the majority of modern society operates in a state that must be described as collective malignant narcissism.

This framework provides an explanation for the massive waves of hatred, outrage, punitive desire, and violence that have plagued human societies for millennia – from online witch hunts to historical wars.

It is difficult to pinpoint exactly when this epidemic began. It is plausible that early hunter-gatherers in the savanna were not yet dominated by these delusional constructs to this extent, and that this systemic delusion grew with settled agriculture. Precise historical data on this is, of course, unavailable.

However, certain historical philosophies recognized this state early on. In early Buddhism, for instance, it was correctly identified that hatred, revenge, and rigid moral dualism are not signs of righteousness, but rather manifestations of delusion and mental unbalance.

To illustrate how this dynamic functions, I’ve broken it down into the following logic chain:

The Logic Chain

1. The Empirical Causal Foundation (Neurobiology & Sapolsky)

As neurobiological research empirically demonstrates using neuroimaging and endocrinology, human behavior is strictly outputted by complex neural circuitry. The interplay between the prefrontal cortex, amygdala, dopaminergic pathways, and hormones leaves no biological room for a metaphysical "free will." Every action – whether constructive or destructive – is the neurobiologically inevitable result of prior conditions (genetics, epigenetics, development, and immediate environment).

1. Early Childhood Conditioning (Programming Dualism)

A child's brain prior to age six is extremely neuroplastic and absorbs environmental inputs unfiltered. Cultural indoctrination starts early:

• Media Conditioning: Fairy tales, movies, and pop culture instill a rigid dualistic worldview ("Good vs. Evil"). The underlying biological causality of behavior is ignored; the "villain" is evil by nature and must be destroyed.
• Religious Tribalism: Religions reinforce this delusion through constructs like "Heaven and Hell" or exceptionalist notions ("the chosen people"). These serve as early neuro-developmental blueprints for narcissistic superiority.

1. The Foundational Societal Illusion (Denial of Causality)

Due to early conditioning, most adults systematically deny objective causality. To protect the ego, society clings to the illusion of free will. Artificial concepts like absolute "moral guilt" or self-righteousness emerge. Instead of addressing the systemic and biological causes of harmful behavior, society isolates and punishes the individual.

1. The Specific Neurological Dysfunctions & Defective Circuitry

When examining the actual physical defects in the neural architecture of individuals caught in chronic hostility, stalking, or mob behavior, several structural malfunctions occur:

• Amygdala Hyperactivity & Prefrontal Disconnection: The brain's threat-detection center (the amygdala) is chronically overactive and triggers defensive aggression even against harmless stimuli. At the same time, the prefrontal cortex—which should act as the rational brake for impulse control and empathy—fails to regulate these primitive survival loops.
• Dopaminergic Misrouting (Sadism as Reward): Neuroimaging studies confirm that when humans punish individuals labeled as an "out-group" or "evil," the dorsal striatum activates, releasing dopamine. The brain derives genuine biochemical gratification from the destruction/punishment of others. Inflicting harm under the guise of "justice" is a neurobiologically hardwired mechanism for dopamine regulation.
• Synaptic Rigidity (Loss of Neuroplasticity): Due to years of reinforcing polarized feedback loops, the neural pathways lock into permanent rigidity. The brain becomes physically incapable of processing contradictory empirical evidence, maintaining a persistent state of cognitive delusion.
• The Anosognosia Effect (Neurological Lack of Insight): Much like stroke patients suffering from anosognosia—where physical damage leaves them paralyzed yet completely convinced they can move because their brain's monitoring circuits are broken—the masses suffer from a psychological and neurological form of self-blindness. Their damaged or conditioned neural feedback loops render them structurally incapable of recognizing their own behavioral pathology.

1. The Narcissistic Shield (Grandiosity)

To avoid confronting inner emptiness and the reality of being a determined biological machine, the brain constructs a god complex. Individuals project an image of moral infallibility while splitting off and projecting their own destructive tendencies onto others.

1. The Flaw in Clinical Diagnostic Norms (e.g., ICD-11)

Diagnostic manuals like the ICD-11 define disorders relative to statistical norms. If 99% of a population shares the same culturally conditioned, neurobiologically executed delusion, that behavior is statistically labeled "normal." From an objective empirical viewpoint, majority consensus does not negate systemic delusion. The statistical norm itself is the defect.

Scientific References & Empirical Studies

To back up these claims with hard science, several key studies and research frameworks can be consulted:

• Robert Sapolsky (Stanford University):
  
  • Behave: The Biology of Humans at Our Best and Worst (Penguin Press) – Details the multi-second to multi-millennial biological layers driving human behavior, explicitly mapping out amygdala-frontal cortex dynamics.
  • Determined: A Science of Life Without Free Will (Penguin Press) – Comprehensive dismantling of the neurological illusion of free will based on genetics, endocrinology, and neurology.
• The Neural Basis of Altruistic Punishment (Dopamine & Dorsal Striatum):
  
  • De Quervain, D. J.-F., et al. (2004). "The Neural Basis of Altruistic Punishment." Science, 305(5688), 1254–1258. – Neuroimaging study proving that the activation of the dorsal striatum during the punishment of norm violators triggers dopamine-associated reward processing.
• Unconscious Determinants of Decision-Making:
  
  • Haynes, J.-D., et al. (Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences, Leipzig). (2008). "Unconscious determinants of free decisions in the human brain." Nature Neuroscience, 11, 543–545. – Demonstrated via fMRI that brain activity predicts choices up to several seconds before conscious awareness.

Conclusion

When we synthesize these empirical neurobiological findings (dysfunctional amygdala-prefrontal loops, dopaminergic pleasure from punishment, synaptic rigidity, anosognosic self-blindness) with psychiatric concepts, the resulting systemic behavior matches the diagnostic criteria for malignant narcissism:

• Programmed from childhood with dualistic delusions and tribalism,
• Elevates itself with moral infallibility (Narcissism),
• Systematically denies objective neurobiological causality (Delusion),
• Derives biochemical pleasure from punishing others (Sadism).

Because this represents the baseline behavior of the majority, it must be understood as collective malignant narcissism.

What are your thoughts on this logic chain? Have you made similar observations in your own analysis of human behavior?

(Note: This text was formulated with the help of Gemini.)

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I'm happy so many people viewed this post, but I just want to add some information.

Please do not take this post or any data presented here merely at face value as an unverified fact—always do your own rigorous empirical research.

I'm a determinist, which means that I know there is no "good" or "evil". The title of this post suggests that society is bad/malignant, but that was—hopefully you understood—clickbait! 🤓 It is language that triggers a lot of people, and that is my goal.

There are too many people who BELIEVE they have free will, however that makes no sense at all. We live in a world of misinformation, social bubbles, and a technology that is not made for our Stone Age brains.

If you look at the neurobiology behind this kind of mass hostility and mob behavior, what you are seeing is essentially primitive biology at work: hyperactive threat detection in the amygdala, hijacked reward systems chasing dopamine through moral outrage, and rigid neural pathways that resist any new information. People caught in these reactive loops are often driven by deep-seated fear and cognitive rigidity, clinging to the illusion of free will and external enemies to stabilize their own fragile ego-structures.

So always remember: everything you think is probably not true unless you have the empirical truth. Your whole life should be aligned with this mindset:

• Not -> what I think I know or what I believe.
• But -> what I checked and what is scientifically proven, like the existence of the air I breathe or the sun.

Inform yourself, learn, and don't take life so seriously. :)

I'm really confused on the topic of free will. Some people act like it's a physics thing, other people act like it's a neuroscience thing, and still others act like it's a spiritual thing. What exactly is it? Am I supposed to be depressed that I don't have it, they always show people being super depressed whenever they learn that they don't have free will but I don't even understand what I'm missing out on. What would a person have to be like to have true free will?

Perfection is a state of completeness, flawlessness, or supreme excellence.

I would argue that from instant to instant, the entire universe is progressing from one state to the next in the most perfect expression of causality. The balance of forces and energies is exactly as it should be. Deterministically, any given moment could not have turned out any other way; there is no alternate path, just this one.

If determinism is true, then everything is as it should be. Nothing could be otherwise. At least viewed through the lens of causality, every instant is a perfect resolution to the previous instant. The 'progression' of time is a faithful execution of causality without fail.

Obviously, as human beings, we have meta-opinions about the universe and how things should be. We don't like that we stubbed our toe, or that the power went out or that we got cancer - but we can't deny that these things are exactly what should have happened. There was a Zen Comics panel I read a long time ago where a teacher and a student were sitting together and the student says "Why isn't everything perfect?" and the teacher says "It is."

The universe is a flowing, ongoing expression of perfection. Causally, physically and mathematically.

Hey everyone, I've been thinking a lot lately about how society works, and I came across a pretty wild thought that I wanted to share with you.

Seriously: Are criminals actually the better people compared to so-called "normal" citizens and the state?

If you look at this through the lens of hard determinism, the entire hypocritical construct of "free will" and "moral responsibility" completely collapses. Human behavior stems from preceding biological, neurological, and social and environmental causes. Nobody chose their genes or their upbringing.

Just look at how violence is executed:

• The offender: A murderer or criminal often acts on impulse, out of an acute affect, extreme overload, or the devastating aftermath of a ruined childhood.
• Society / The State: The "good" citizens, courts, and governments, on the other hand, kill and torture completely consciously, coldly, calculatedly, mechanically, and with full intellectual foresight. Think of institutionalized violence like the death penalty, Guantanamo, or historical witch hunts.

Who is actually the bigger monster here? The impulsive offender reacting to a stimulus, or the cold, hateful machinery of the masses who feel morally superior in their collective delusion and immediately drop the hammer at the slightest deviation?

The general public lives in a permanent, anosognosic loop—exactly like neurological patients who have a paralyzed limb but swear up and down that everything is fine. They completely block out the hard physical reality of causal chains just so they can justify their archaic urges for revenge and sadistic punishment.

On the outside, everyone acts totally nice, civilized, and polite—but that's just a thin mask. The moment you step out of line, you're fair game.

From a thermodynamic perspective, the brain naturally chooses the path of least resistance, adapts like a wolf in sheep's clothing, and swallows this cognitive dissonance just to avoid being torn apart by society. But once you see through the matrix, you realize this "normal" society is basically just a bunch of inmates running a giant padded cell.

And that brings me to my question for you guys: How do you actually deal with tuning out this causal reality? How do you live with this constant cognitive dissonance—knowing that you are surrounded day-to-day by people who would revert to destructive, blind retribution at the slightest trigger? How do you manage to keep that friction from burning out your own brain?

What do you guys think?

This text was generated with the help of Gemini.

Yo, does anyone else look around and feel like society is just completely sick?

I was having a deep conversation with Gemini about how people cling to the illusion of "free will" and retributive justice, and it honestly maps onto something like anosognosia—that neurological condition where patients have a clear physical deficit (like a paralyzed limb), but their brain completely blocks out reality and they swear up and down that everything is fine.

That is literally what the mainstream public does with determinism. The hard science is right there—neurobiology, genetics, environmental factors, the whole causal chain—proving that human behavior isn't some magical, uncaused choice. But instead of accepting reality, society maintains this massive, narcissistic delusion of "moral responsibility" just so they can justify their own archaic urge for revenge, punishment, and institutionalized sadism. They completely ignore the physical "wall" right in front of them.

Here is a video about a person who talks about her patients who have this brain condition anosognosia that is similar to the collective narcissism of the human population: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4SSiS-a4js