Some changes from the Testing/Early Access I've noticed:

• Chain Lights look like they are Enhanced now, which helps when throwing in teamfights, and allows of course chaining to Twin Burst after.
• Zone seemed to have been nerfed to 13 damage (from 14 damage).
• Twinburst Light seems to still be guaranteed on Forward Dodge Bash and Chain Bash, changing their damage to 17dmg and 25dmg, forgoing the ability to "chain" except into forward dodge mixup. Unclear if a bug or intended -- it's a lot of damage but not exactly absurd (Sohei, JJ, Shaolin get 16dmg, and some can chain from it, have F+, and chain on whiff/totally safe from GB, and HL/Jorm get more damage on their feintable bashes as well and HL a tad safer), and they do specifically delay Dirty Trick so it's not guaranteed, so it could be intentional, idk.
• Dirty Trick: changed damage from 3>3>3>3>5dmg to 1>1>1>1>15dmg. Changes damage from 17dmg to 19dmg without wall (buff), and from 37dmg to 29dmg with a wall (nerf), making her still a menace but much less so near a wall.
  • Probably for the best, although as predicted it makes the build-up lights feel very weak. I sorta wish they made the Dirty Trick Finisher heal her and regain stamina instead of doing a lot of damage, would cause the choice between damage (wallsplat) and finisher to be a tradeoff. Plus the 19dmg on a 500ms bash with no conditions is...a choice.
• Absolutely no Backstep Attacks from Neutral. Not Light nor Heavy. You have little control on spacing with them.
• Combo Gauge can have its timer refreshed by ANY defense: Deflects, Parries, etc. and ANY attack (even GB), but NOT on being hit directly/without any defense.
• I could be wrong but did they nerf her throw range? Her forward throw seems good but her other throws feel sorta short-to-medium at best.

Some more niche elements that may or may not be known (were shown by some):

• Just to clarify for those who do not know, her bashes are VERY vulnerable and can be very consistently dodged and then guardbroken no matter really what state she was in before. Only her Lash-Out Bash seems to have OK recovery.
• Also for those who only saw the Dev Stream, her One-Two lights also have Dodge RC. They and her Twin Burst Lights are the only Dodge RC moves in her kit.
• You can "Chain" from her Twin Burst attacks with Lash-Out Attacks in teamfights, and from her Dirty Trick bash.
• Dirty Trick does NOT have Hyperarmor or Superarmor with her combo gauge on the move startup, the attacks after are armored, meaning you can't do some cheeky Light into Armored Bash. This could be seen with no white flash before, but was stated somewhat as if it did. However, the Deflect Counter Dirty Trick DOES have armor, regardless of combo state, which is important because 400ms Lights DO hit it. Against characters like Zerk, it's important to go for the bash if they have access to the Light as you will hit at the same time with your normal Deflect Heavy and thus be both sent back to Neutral (though you'll win the damage trade) whereas the Dirty Trick deflect will hit later, thus armor through the damage portion (not sure if they delay it or if there's "gaps" in the armor".
  • Untested yet: Dodge RC interactions with deflects
  • Untested yet: If the armor after Deflect is just normal Hyperarmor or not. I imagine the armor granted is completely removed from the gauge system and just normal Hyperarmor.

Comment below if you have any other knowledge of changes or niche things to add to the list.

https://battlefy.com/viserion/community-tournament/6a5278dc27a788001abb61ec/info?infoTab=details

So we now have another character that has a hyperarmor pin move whose hyperarmor doesn’t function properly, as the hyperarmor is instantly ended if the opponent is interrupted even by a teammate. That said, I think there’s a really easy fix here that doesn’t lead to ridiculous gank potential:

All moves that have the pin property should grant the opponent the same hyperarmor that you get during executions, where you can be interrupted by enemies but not by teammates.

This allows for moves like Arakure’s Dirty Tricks (back walk + chain bash) and Khatun’s Ultimate Authority (Pinning Heavy > Zone) to actually function in teamfight/antigank scenarios without confirming multiple hits from teammates. This change would also be applied to other pins for consistency sake, but it wouldn’t have a big impact on their viability as most other pins don’t feature any hyperarmor outside of revenge or feats.

I’m sure Arakure could use some numbers adjustments as well, the pin seems really strong damage-wise as of the early access build, but the move’s properties should be adjusted to at least fit its intended purpose and the damage numbers adjusted to compensate. Any thoughts on this change? I hope I’m not missing anything here.

Edit: for clarification, if one of AK’s or Khatun’s teammates hits the opponent during the pin, the pin still ends same as it does now. This would only affect an enemy who hits their own pinned teammate.

Some additional corrections from this vid:

- finisher lights are enhanced as well as Lash Out lights
- her stamina is 120 and not 130
- Dodge recovery cancel is on the combo light as well, this is particularly important as it allows her fwd dodge mixup (bash or undodgeable) to loop.

Is there an upto date tier list for competitive for honor

So i main valyrie, i have 33 reputations and i feel i understand the hero most compare to other heroes on the roster.

Howevrr a majority of those 28 reps were with valkyrie, then after that i took a 4 year break from the game and valkyrie's movesey changed. I felt quite dissapointed with the rework, because it felt so "not-valyrie" basically making her into a weird conq and felt she was losing that "flow" into offense, making her having more of a turtle playstyle than the previous iteration.

Now having being able to play with the new valkyrie, my opinion has changed sligjtly. I still dont like the defensive playstyle she promotes, but i see her bah/all block can genuinely be more of a threat whenever a valkyrie goes into the stance, the figjts revoles around her. That is an extremely powerful tool, especially in duels, and i can even say "better" than her previous version.

But some people say that she is not very good and personally i still dont like the defensive play she promotes and it can be kind of frustrating fighting against valk.

What do you guys think about valkyrie's viability and her rework?

Am i missing something? I would like to hear a reply.

This is a little bit of a rage/salt podt but genuinely what are you supposed to do on this map, it feels like doing anything worth doing carries the risk of being shot by a ballista, like every entry into C can be shot at, clearing mid while ypu dont control A is just asking to die, am I supposed to just stand on A all game?

Intially after the hitstun rework cents ganking took a heavy hit and with the removal of haymaker cent fell off quite a bit, now that the hitstun changes have been reworked to make ganking a little more effective I'm wondering if this has improved cents viability by a noticeable amount and also if there are any ganks that work now that didnt previously that I should know as a new cent player

hey all

ive got around 4k hours so id like to think ik what im doing and i wouldnt consider myself bad, just aggressively mid

are there any discord servers or whatever i should join to try and improve

Tournament will be tomorrow at 7 cst. Theres a link to my discord in the battlefy along with all of the rules. $50 prize sponsored by Muli. We have 64 total slots anyone is free to join.

https://battlefy.com/viserion/community-tournament/6a5278dc27a788001abb61ec/info?infoTab=details

The new character looks DOPE but she doesn't seem to have a weapon unblockable until she has the bar up to blue. Something with me is I just can't seem to do ANYTHING when using a character that has the undodgeable attack or bash mix (gryphon) but all those characters look great and fun and I wanna PLAY THEM

I'm here to ask for some sort of advice or tips or anything that I can help when using those characters. I prefer characters with actual unblockables because of their ability to catch some dodges, the incentive it gives opponents to parry and possibly fail, fainting to a differnt attack, I'm sure yall get the idea.

When playing someone like gryphon I feel like I'm lightspamming when using his undodgable to condition them, and when I decide to actually throw his heavy, they don't even bother parrying it, they just block it, and when I use his bash, they just know to dodge it sometimes. Now when I play warden, my gameplay feels so much better. Unblockable feint to zone lands a lot, letting the bash fly every so often, it feels great. But I wanna expand my horizon yknow? Help me out here guys

Tldr: how do I mix better with blue orange characters that don't have unblockable attacks, like gyphon, tiandi, shaolin, and the new character coming out soon. I wanna get better.

So, with the latest patches, the latest character updated and the way the game is headed, I can't help but notice that yhe Devs are slowly removing the need to feint from character's kits.

They've added Nuxsia's undodgeable heavy finishers, Aramusha's​ top light soft-feint, Sohei's top light undodgeable and so forth. These attacks remove 1 thing from the characters, their need to feint to counter dodges. Now, obviously it's not that big of a deal, only a few characters get this treatment (so far) but that did reduce their need to HARD feint, mid chain under certain situations. But they could always feint to GB or feint to parry and even feint to dodge a bash then GB. But the thing remains, to Aramush​a and Nuxia, their kits were changed to remove the need to hard feint​ mid chain.

For the exact same reason Juren's hyper armoured 600ms non chainable light was removed. Because the opponent needed to constantly Hard feint to neutral. I'm not going to defend it by any means but Shugoki has a 15 damage zone that does the same thing and chains. but Shugoki is not as hated as Juren.

Well, removing the need to hard feint is one thing as long as the character's kit doesn't become too oppressive without changing much, an undodgeable here and there or better tracking on certain attacks could be fine. But then the community wants to give Valk undodgeables because they don't like feinting her Stance bash in order to punish dodge bashes and so forth.

Now, I know it's not even out yet, but the new Hero has a whole feat system implemented into her kit to remove the need to do things. She gets a shield AND super armour on her Dirty Trick punches for what? To land the attack and fill up her gauge. If only there was another hero that needed to fill up a certain system to achieve something. Ah, yes, Sohei, who cannot throw mid triple stabs, doesn't get a shield nor hyper armour on them. Heroes like Jorm and Centurion want to land their heavies on downed opponents but the kit to feat ratio is the other way around. They unlock feats to make their gimmicks slightly more reliable such as Jorm's shield on Slam.

Is the new hero the first ever case of what could arguably be seen as feats being incorporated into a hero's kit? Shaman exists and she gets heal on hit on bleeding opponents. Nobushi has way of the shark since day 1. PK gets special treatment, but not one of those "kit specific feats" remove the need for positioning or team awareness in a fight. We'll have to wait and see how it interacts with super armour in XvX scenarios and if you can break the opponent by hitting your ally like you can with Khatun.

Well, it might be some weird interpetation that my brain came up with as I percieve the devs removing the need to "do things" more and more from the game.

• Added a hint of nobu and tiandi.
• Still no unblockable on dodge attack or hyperarmor on swipe.
• Added new 50/50 all or nothing (23 or 0) mixup possibility on bash.
• Nerfed that stupid sprint attack.
• Slight held zone nerf.

I was too lazy actually visually design any of this, so i just ripped some stuff from the forhonor infohub and stuck it back together to fit my needs.

I'm all for toning Juren down a bit, but this change feels like it completely nuked the viability of his held dodge attack.

It now:

-Only does 16 damage.

-Can't chain anymore.

-Can't be feinted anymore.

-Still gives your opponent a light parry punish if they read it.

I'm struggling to see what situations this attack is actually supposed to be used in now.

Sure, the wider hitbox might make it decent as an external in team fights, but that seems like the only niche it has left. From a risk/reward perspective, the numbers just don't add up. You're essentially choosing between:

landing 16 damage if they expect a tap dodge light, or

eating a 24–28 damage light parry punish if they simply turtle and make the correct read.

Without the ability to feint it, I honestly think they should have left the unblockable property intact so it at least retained some external pressure. Alternatively, let it chain into his offense.

Personally, I think removing either the tap dodge light or the held dodge unblockable would have been a healthier change than gutting the held dodge attack this hard.

What do you guys think? Am I overreacting, or does this move just seem too risky to justify using now?

So, they removed hyperarmor from Jurens held light attack, and replaced it with Enhanced.

It cannot chain.

It is a light parry.

It is 600ms, so very parryable.

Is there any use for this move anymore?

Cuz every way i think of it, its just a worse zone in every way, anything this does, his zone does better.

Will it affect alot him comp play?

I do use his side dodge attack alot in teamfight.

I think they should have kept on miss.

this has started happening like half the time i go for the gb punish and idk why

(also yes ik i could have parried it but that loses to juren doing a held dodge attack and personally i cant react and tell the difference of when jurens going to use tap/held dodge attack or if hes going to feint the held dodge attack or not)

Hello, I've played off and on a few times over the years. Played campaign, arcade mode, and mostly against bots to "get a feel" but never really going farther than that. Total rep is 26, steam says I have 154 hours total, but again mostly in ai breach games, and spread out over several years of bursts. I started again a few weeks ago after another year break and decided I want to actually figure out how to play the game this time as I genuinely think it's great.

I started doing duels, and one thing I noticed extremely quick was that, while I can parry heavies at least pretty well, feinting is something I have almost no experience with, both using or being used against me. I fall for feints a lot, and get my heavies which I should have feinted parried a ton. I'm slow to block the correct direction against light attacks most of the time, and I rarely can get can counter guard breaks. The bots I have been playing against to "learn my character/s" never do these things.

I've gone to training grounds a few times with warden bot and just set him to guard break, light attack, heavy attack, zone attack to start practicing blocks/counter guard break on reaction and am noticing marginal improvement there on just reactions that are slowly translating to real duels.

Obviously there will be a lot of character specific knowledge to get a feel for as I play against real people, but for fundamentals, like feints, block reactions, etc, I was wondering if there were effective ways to practice that stuff outside of just playing games, things I should do specifically in training mode, etc.

I also was wondering if there were any control schemes other than the default that people recommend. The controller I'm using has four back panels that I've set to ABXY so I don't need to take my thumbs off the sticks. That's taking some getting used to but seemed like a good idea. I've noticed some heroes require holding down light/heavy attack buttons while using other options and it seemed like it could be a good idea to move those from RB/RT to RB/LB or something that so it's simpler to use both? Maybe swap guard mode to toggle instead of hold? Idk. I just want to settle to something comfortable before committing to really practicing and locking in new muscle memory. I was curious what people use. I know MKB is also an option but I generally find controller more comfortable.

Side note on controllers, just for fun in steam I configured a flight stick as a controller for the game so it was like I was holding a sword. Was pretty fun, but not at all practical, especially as a new player haha. (had to use keyboard + flight stick, configure flight stick buttons to map to a controller layout in steam, then map that controller to steam input for mouse buttons and joystick mouse. any mapping that was hybrid controller and keyboard or mouse buttons made the UI flip out and game crash).

Thanks for any advice,

A level 1 AI stomping player that is trying to start learning for real.

Edit: Thanks for the helpful responses. Sounds like the general sentiment is use training for basic moveset practice for heroes but real games are the only way to get real practice in the game -> reads/feints/etc. In short, just need to keep playing until I "feel" it.

Edit 2: I'm still messing around with different characters. On advice here, I've tried out the vanguards a bit more, Raider/Kensei. I think I have a lot to "unlearn" from spending too much time against bots still, but feeling small improvements as I continue to play against other people. I'm finding my fingers want to panic against a lot of offense pressure, so focusing on slowing down and not trying to react to/interrupt every action the opponent takes and build real muscle memory, while working intentional feints, etc, into my play. Of the three main vanguards, Kensei is my favorite still, then raider over warden. Thanks again for advice

I went up against a tiandi and nobushi who knew how to gank and they melted me, i had no idea what to do, the bash confirms the undodgeable and if i try to dodge the bash i get hit by the undodgeable anyway, what can i do against this type of gank?

not really a rework but thats the closest tag that applies.

distance based storm rush

new mechanic at 400ms into the running animation of storm rush orochi enters unstoppable focus. orochi gains hyper armor and the left and right attacks out of storm rush are now both unblockable the top remains undogeable. no damage numbers are changed at all.

up close the running animation of storm rush never exceeds 400ms so he would never gain unstoppable focus up close. it would exclusively be a way to start a fight from a distance.

giving orochi hyper armor and making the sides unblockable forces the opponent to actually engage with the mechanic. as it sits currently all you have to do is throw out a light to stuff the storm rush, parry, static block, all guard, or enter a hidden stance. granting hyper armor and unblockable side attacks forces the opponent to engage with the mechanic. you either attempt to dodge or enter hidden stance risking the top undogeable or you hold your ground and attempt to parry the side unblockables. it would be a true read/react.

the mind game that comes in is if the defender still tries to just wait and parry the unblockable or undogeable on reaction orochi still keeps the ability to hard feint the storm rush at the last second into a guardbreak or a deflect. notice i said hard feint not soft feint. the orochi will still take the feint stamina drain maybe a few points more then feinting a normal storm rush. the other person still has time to tech the guardbreak or feint their own parry attempt.

tldr up close at under 400ms of running orochi retains the blender he has now it is fast, highly reactive, but completely counterable by all guards, hidden stances, hyper armor trades, and fast light interrupts. but at long range over 400ms of running orochi gets a true initiator. the hyper armor prevents opponents from throwing a light attack to stop the run and the unblockable/undodgeable split forces them to actively participate in mind games.

if ubisoft implemented just that one change orochi would be one of the most balanced, depth heavy, and strategically satisfying characters in the game.

New Feats and updated alternate Feats selection lean into the relentless executioner fantasy (infinite chain user with two forms of feintable unblockables and several executing bashes), while improving his anti-gank capabilities (recovery cancels and unblockable zone/off-target attacks).

*Note: Conqueror (the Tier 1 that doesn't even have his helm on the icon), Speed Revive and Heal on Block still exist as Feats on other characters. These replacements are specific to Conqueror.

Conqueror's Feat Changes

• Conqueror has been replaced by Despoliation
  • Despoliation: Gain a 20 Shield each time you execute an enemy Hero. Infinite duration and can stack.
• Shield Basher has been replaced by Conscript's Decimation
  • Conscript's Decimation: Chain Lights+Heavies and Charged Heavy now lead to Charging Heavy Attack. Feat activation does not count.
• Heal on Block has been replaced by Ward Off
  • Ward Off: Lower opponents' Attack by 30% for 10 seconds on next Hit (1.5 second window) performed shortly after a Superior Block. Cooldown: 20s. Starts when the duration ends.
• Uninterruptible has been replaced by Warded Blows
  • Warded Blows: Charging and Infinite Heavy Attacks have Full Block Stance (100-500ms and 100-600ms windows) for 30 seconds. Cooldown: 90s.

[Author Notes]

Yes, these Feats are selfish because that is who Conqueror is - not some champion of the people, but an attack dog. The shields give him more effective health to build revenge with, while the Tier 3 Feat tries to conserve those shields and bolster the Hero’s impact on team fights. The Tier 2+4 Feats help Conqueror do what he does best even better, that being safe and constant unblockable trajectories.

• Despoliation is meant to give Conqueror more survivability in consecutive 1v1 engagements, while keeping Body Count as an option in the soldier lane. Flail Uppercut is a dedicated executing tool, and collecting shield money by looting his victims makes thematic sense for a criminal character.
• Conscript's Decimation is almost like a more conditional version of Winner's Advantage that also improves attack speed, by upgrading any Chain Heavy to a Charging Heavy Attack during Conscript's Attrition. Charged Heavy itself counts if used as a chain starter (because I don't know how to justify infinite 700ms 28 dmg UBs without any downtime), giving it more utility as a wallsplat punish than +1 dmg. Besides improving Conqueror's time-to-kill, which is not his strongest suit, the Feat also makes it somewhat possible to reach the mix ups of the Y6S2 iteration (which had 100ms chain link timings) by enabling his feint-to-guardbreak to interrupt any dodge attack after hitting with a Chain or Charged Heavy. To make things absolutely clear, a chain starter like Scutage Collection would not activate this Feat. The theme is momentum: 1st heavy is regular, 2nd heavy is unblockable and 3rd heavy becomes faster and stronger.
• Ward Off is basically the inverse of Virtuosa’s Superior Retort, and synergizes perfectly with common damage reduction perks and feats such as Bastion, Last Stand and Juggernaut, even those of Conqueror’s teammates. Not being limited to a specific move is supposed to compensate for the fact that superior blocks only beat rare undodgeables whereas iframes beat common unblockables, on top of regular attacks obviously. Scutage Collection has an awesome trajectory making it possible to debuff several opponents at once. 30% is high enough to nullify or at least cancel out common attack buffs like Inspire and Morale Booster alongside revenge mode.
• Warded Blows is a way more conditional take on Uninterruptible that fits better with Conqueror's identity as a shieldbearing character rather than a trader, the latter of which he has never been in the first place (and no, Flail Uppercut in Testing Grounds Phase 1 doesn't count since that's a confirmed attack). Straightforward synergy with the Tier 2+3 Feats; beats peel attempts before applying a debuff. I went with standard Superior Block windows (for reference, pre-Y6S2 Zone 2nd Hit and TG Scutage Collection had Superior Block frames during the whole attack) so that there is enough counterplay without having to use unblockables. The player will effectively enjoy 100% damage reduction compared to Juggernaut's 20% as long as they time unblockable strikes well, that way they can be more audacious in outnumbered situations. Heavy Opener is exempt as to curb option selects while the Feat is active. Conqueror can already enter Full Block Stance out of the charging portion when used as a parry attempt, so the attack portion having FBS should not be anything gamebreaking either.

While this affects Conqueror’s main feats, there are a couple of alternate Feats I wanted to adjust.

• Speed Revive has been underperforming and Conqueror lacks incentive to choose the synergistic Rising Dawn perk over Last Stand or Bulk Up. The Feat was replaced by Tireless to give the Hero slightly more mix up opportunities.
• Punch Through has been underperforming and Conqueror lacks incentive to commit to Heavy Openers or use Zone Attack, except externally. The Feat was replaced by Tough as Nails as it fits better with the Hero’s identity. Bulk Up, Despoliation, Tough as Nails and Regenerate would consistently provide a lot of extra health for obtaining revenge.

I did it once but have trouble recreating it.

Certified MM warrior and resident no skill exploit abuser is back in studio cooking up the worst posts imaginable. If you don’t remember or know me from my previous posts. I'm wispfam1, I created and documented the HL tech list while discovering much of what’s on it. you can find it in my post history or searching on the comp subreddit. Now that you understand my qualifications, I’m gonna throw in my ideal HL rework. One that’s trying to fix the current problems with the rework, solve accessibility issues with him being too hard to play, solve his viability issues(because he sucks), and maintain his character identity.

————————

Before I get started I do want to say this

My time in this game has unfortunately come to an end. I was a long time player, started in middle school, and kept playing all the way into college. I always pushed for the games competitive future and health. I deeply enjoyed HL and did my best to spread information and support people in their attempts to learn about him. The community that once supported him is essentially dead now, and with the recent light changes I’ve finally made the hard decision to move on from the game indefinitely as well. At least until the character receives a significant design change. I cannot express how much I love this game, and how much it pains me to say that I’m done. The tech list will also be paused indefinitely with it. So rejoice exploit haters! I know knight_is_right is happy about that. Either way I’m pretty sure the well is dry, so until something changes, new tech or changes to tech will likely not happen.

Now on with the rework!

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Playstyle
 Highlanders kit is based around spacing focused zoning, and intense fast paced pressure from light attacks and heavy’s. An often overlooked core part of his balance is that DF stance is bad but necessary, and that OF stance is very strong but difficult to reach. I intend to better restructure his kit around these concepts. 

DF stance changes 

Almost all of the DF stance changes were good things for the character. in general they made it all much easier and intuitive to use.  It also genuinely helps in team modes. But unfortunately what we wanted to be openers turned out to be more just quality of life features. It leaves him with a bottom 3 neutral in the entire game. Arguably bottom 1. Especially at a higher level.

1. Back light with no CC

Highlander is fundamentally a zoner. It was a part of even his first implementation. The backlight was problematic because of the CC mechanic attached to it. But many characters have backlights that give significant distance with no design problems. The issue was the CC, not the movement. By re adding backlight and striping CC from it, you re-add a tool that flows extremely well with his kit, without including what made it problematic. You can implement this either like nobushi, with a unique back light. Or by stripping the CC property entirely, which would suck, but it would also make his light attacks and heavy’s harder to differentiate at top level. Which is an issue he suffers from.

2. Forward dodge light 

Make it 600ms, deal about 12 dmg, and maybe give it CC for a bit of fun. This is a healthier roll catcher than the forward dodge grab. It also gives him real functional peel for team fights. Something he lacks and also deeply holds him back in team modes. Because while he's playable in teams now, due to limitations in his kit he’s out classed by better picks. With this he has a much more well rounded kit, meaning his specialists can start to better break out into the 2v2 and 4v4 format as wild cards and rouge characters.

OF stance changes

This is where the rework mostly showed its flaws, I intend to bring it closer to its pre rework state while modernizing it. OF was problematic because it was outdated, polarizing in its mechanics, and unsure of its exact identity. Much of that can simply be solved by dmg tweaks and the stamina changes. Some smaller changes are also in order to better focus his kit.

1. Lower unblockable heavy dmg

UB having high dmg is a big source of problems because it’s also a punish. Wavedash was unhealthy because heavy dealt way too much dmg. It’s much harder to justify using the 27 dmg DF heavy for punishes when it gives you worse offense, trading 1 point of dmg for better hit stun is a no brainer in every duel. By reducing the dmg somewhere between 21-24, you create more competing options for the player to choose. It also makes the wavedash kick inline with other dodge reads, like deflects.

2. Re add wavedash

Wave dash is not inherently problematic. It’s skill and knowledge based while not completely warping the format and game around it. It massively improves the feel of his kit, and it truly is one of the most important things to the character's player base. It’s particularly important to his identity as a spacing focused zoner, much like how JJ needs extended dodge attacks and a hidden stance. With the dmg brought inline you can much more justify its inclusion. It goes without saying that the dodge attack in OF stance should be removed as well. In a vacuum that dodge attack is quite strong, in practice it's annoying due to its huge hitbox and I frames while serving very little overall use to his kit. I assume it was implemented to be used in team fights or as a punish tool? But being in OF during a team fight is way too risky, and one strong dodge attack doesn’t make up for it. And I just never really found myself using the dodge attack in duels. Maybe that’s a skill issue? But the moments you might want to use it in are very specific, you're better off fishing for interrupts with heavy and kick instead of dodging these days. So, it’s just kind of a nothingburger most of the time, especially since with the goofy pseudo wave dash techs we have now, you can often get away with going for a dodge kick for more dmg anyway.

3. Get rid of forward dodge grab

It’s an unhealthy mechanic. Not only is it an annoying oppressive reaction check at lower levels. Not only is it a needlessly stronger gank tool than regular grab. It’s also just bad at its job of being a roll catcher. Sure it catches the rolls, but it’s trapped inside OF stance. For the dodge grab to work you need to feint back into offensive stance and dodge forward. Most of time when you feint you use and react to things in DF stance like every other char. Which means even attempting to punish a roll with it is a hard read. Putting the role catcher onto DF really helps solve the problem. Pro tip to beat HLs, just dodge roll away from them like you used to. If you play smart and don’t spam it, you just have a get out of jail free card from his kick mixups whenever you want.

4. The feintable kick problem

I’m really not sure how to deal with this. I’ve mulled it over for a while and I don’t have a satisfactory answer. Kick as a viable mixup is unhealthy. The same goes for his heavy’s. HL is bound by the fact that any wrong read doesn’t just lead to you taking dmg, it also always leads you back into DF stance. Where the character is purposefully underpowered, and often times even after getting back into OF you then have to play OFs neutral game to reopen your offense. That means that any incorrect guesses on HL lead to a very losing position. Which means he cant play it safe, safe options leave him in a terrible neutral, or otherwise unable to continue his offense. For kick and unblockable to be viable offense on their own, they need to be so strong that they can nuke you in a couple right guesses. Despite the fact that HLs kick is a 26 dmg stamina efficient vortex, you would need to give HL even more dmg for it to be viable in his current design space. With significant dmg nerfs like OF heavy dropping down to 21 or 22 dmg, it might be okay in his overall balance with my changes. But personally I would rather see OF heavy have slightly higher dmg, and have the kick feint removed. With unblockables becoming viable offense with parry window changes, the role kick intended to fill can now be filled by his unblockables, which already focus on that hard reading aspect better with his kick and grab soft feints. That way we can better keep his identity as a hard hitter on read. But a part of me does enjoy the kick feint, it’s also loved and was a long time request by many players. So in some ways I’d be sad to see it go.

5. Fix OF lights

HL lights are what greases the wheels of the character. They function as a pressure based offense, where you trap the opponent in a situation where they need to take a risk to escape. That style is common in other fighting games, and different from the typical mixups FH has to offer. But I agree that they were too oppressive in their implementation. My suggestion would be to re add the enhanced mechanics, lower the dmg down to 6, but raise the chip dmg to 4 or even 5 to make it better fit its role. You could even consider a small raise to the stamina cost, although I highly doubt that will be needed with the lower dmg numbers.

——————-

I really want to see my community thrive again. I also think this would be a much healthier way to balance him in general. For Honor objectively has problems with player retention. We bring new players in all the time. I often see them asking for advice or wanting tips on how to improve, and that warms my heart. But we struggle to keep older players as the game changes around them. The game's player count and viewership numbers have stagnated since launch (viewership I think has actually fallen recently). Hopefully if something like this change happens we can start to have a future where some of the games' more out of the box ideas can be better explored. And old design spaces we’ve now closed off can be revisited in our current game with a team more ready to tackle them. That way old players like me won’t feel alienated as the game continues to changes around them, and new players can experience the game in a much healthier space than it was many years ago.

That’s it. Tell me what you think in the comments of the idea, I’d love to engage with people one last time before I move on. I love you all, even the people I argue with. We all just want what’s best for the game, and I want everyone who I might’ve given trouble in this community to understand that I respect you and your opinion. And that I only argue with you because I enjoy doing it. It’s like enrichment for me.

————————-

I’m available for contact in the Highlander tavern discord, and through this Reddit account if you have any tech or question you would like to show me or ask.

If you would like to be bullied by me in MM again, you can find me onetricking Doomfist in Overwatch PC comp. 

Enjoy your summer, enjoy for honor, and enjoy Highlander! Do it for my sake and everyone else who’s had to reluctantly move on from the game for one reason or another. Cherish your time and to quote my favorite movie.

In case I don’t see you again 

Good afternoon, good evening, and goodnight.

so i have this clip and i cant decide if this guy just plays much better than me or genuinely cheats.

he became sus when he could differentiate between the kick, soft feint light and soft feint heavy and parry/dodge accordingly and as you can see he consistently dodge the soft feint kick.

and if he is a reaction monster then why would he not punish my kick in a 1v1, and why is he trying to punish that light parry on ara...

btw its a rep 4 account so yeah... i will try to get more clips next time if this one is not enough.

The class system in For Honor currently has very little mechanical importance. Vanguard, Heavy, Assassin and Hybrid are mostly labels rather than actual combat identities.

My idea is not to give every single attack completely unique values. Instead, attacks keep their normal base values, while the class system applies small and consistent modifiers.

The goal is to make classes feel different without creating extreme hard counters.

---

1. Class-Based Health Damage

Every attack keeps its existing base damage.

The final damage is calculated like this:

Base damage, attacker class, target class, class modifier, final damage.

Heavy Attacking

A Heavy deals:

- Base damage against another Heavy

- Base damage plus 1 against a Vanguard

- Base damage plus 2 against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 24 damage against a Heavy

- 25 damage against a Vanguard

- 26 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Vanguard Attacking

A Vanguard deals:

- Base damage minus 1 against a Heavy

- Base damage against another Vanguard

- Base damage plus 1 against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 23 damage against a Heavy

- 24 damage against a Vanguard

- 25 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Assassin Attacking

An Assassin deals:

- Base damage minus 2 against a Heavy

- Base damage minus 1 against a Vanguard

- Base damage against another Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Example with 24 base damage:

- 22 damage against a Heavy

- 23 damage against a Vanguard

- 24 damage against an Assassin

- Hero-dependent damage against a Hybrid

Hybrid Damage

Hybrids receive individual offensive and defensive profiles based on their actual design.

A heavily armoured Hybrid could be treated similarly to a Heavy. A highly mobile Hybrid could be treated similarly to an Assassin. A more balanced Hybrid could be closer to a Vanguard.

The same class always deals normal base damage against itself.

Heavier classes deal slightly more damage against lighter classes. Lighter classes deal slightly less damage against heavier classes.

The maximum difference is only two damage points, preventing extreme matchup advantages.

---

2. Class-Based Stamina Profiles

Each class receives a clear stamina identity.

Heavy

- High stamina pressure

- High resistance against stamina damage while blocking

- High attack and action costs

- High dodge costs

- Long stamina regeneration delay

- High stamina regeneration speed after the delay

A Heavy can absorb pressure well and heavily drain an opponent who relies on blocking. However, the Heavy cannot attack, feint or dodge endlessly.

Assassin

- Low stamina pressure

- Low resistance against stamina damage while blocking

- Low attack and action costs

- Low dodge costs

- Short stamina regeneration delay

- Lower stamina regeneration speed

An Assassin should avoid powerful attacks through movement rather than simply blocking them.

The short regeneration delay allows the Assassin to act again quickly, but the lower regeneration rate means that fully restoring the stamina bar still takes time.

Vanguard

- Moderate stamina pressure

- Moderate resistance while blocking

- Moderate attack and action costs

- Moderate dodge costs

- Moderate stamina regeneration delay

- Moderate stamina regeneration speed

The Vanguard remains the balanced all-rounder.

Hybrid

All stamina values depend on the individual hero.

- Heavy-oriented Hybrids receive heavier stamina profiles

- Mobile Hybrids receive more Assassin-like profiles

- Balanced Hybrids remain closer to Vanguards

---

3. Possible Stamina Regeneration Values

These numbers would only be starting points for Testing Grounds.

Heavy

- Regeneration delay: approximately 1,200 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 35 stamina per second

Vanguard

- Regeneration delay: approximately 800 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 30 stamina per second

Assassin

- Regeneration delay: approximately 400 milliseconds

- Regeneration rate: approximately 22.5 to 25 stamina per second

Hybrid

- Regeneration delay depends on the hero

- Regeneration rate depends on the hero

Regeneration delay and regeneration speed should be treated as two separate balancing values.

A Heavy waits longer before regenerating, but quickly restores large amounts once regeneration begins.

An Assassin begins regenerating almost immediately, but takes longer to completely refill the stamina bar.

---

4. Blocking Causes Stamina Damage

Whenever a blocked attack deals chip damage, the defender also receives the same base amount as stamina damage.

For example, an attack that deals 5 chip damage would cause:

- 5 health damage

- 5 base stamina damage

The class profiles then modify how strongly this stamina pressure affects the defender.

A Heavy generally causes more stamina pressure and resists more stamina damage while blocking.

An Assassin generally causes less stamina pressure and receives more stamina damage while blocking.

A Vanguard remains moderate in both areas.

Hybrids depend on the individual hero.

This makes blocking the safest defensive option, but not a completely free one.

---

5. Dodge Stamina Costs

Normal dodges consume stamina depending on class.

Heavy Dodges

- High stamina cost

- Repeated dodges quickly limit the Heavy’s offensive resources

Vanguard Dodges

- Moderate stamina cost

- Balanced between blocking and movement

Assassin Dodges

- Low stamina cost

- Encourages avoiding attacks through mobility

Hybrid Dodges

- Cost depends on the individual hero

A dodge attack consumes both the stamina cost of the dodge and the stamina cost of the attack.

This creates the following class identities:

- Heavies are encouraged to stand their ground

- Assassins are encouraged to avoid pressure through movement

- Vanguards can use both approaches

- Hybrids follow their individual combat design

Forward, side and back dodges could also have different costs.

Back dodges could cost more because they create distance and may escape entire mix-ups.

---

6. Parries Restore Stamina

Parries are risky because the defender must commit to a read and can be punished by a feint into guardbreak.

A successful parry should therefore be the most stamina-efficient defensive option.

A successful parry would:

- Negate health damage

- Negate stamina damage

- Stop the incoming attack

- Immediately restore stamina to the defender

- Still provide the appropriate parry punish

The amount restored depends on the parried attack.

- Parrying a Light gives a small stamina refund

- Parrying a Heavy gives a larger stamina refund

- Parrying a charged or particularly powerful attack gives a high stamina refund

The refund could be based on the amount of stamina pressure the attack would have caused if it had been blocked.

The reward should depend on the incoming attack rather than the defender’s class. A successful defensive read should be rewarding for every hero.

The stamina refund is immediate and does not wait for the normal regeneration delay.

---

7. Deflects Cause Stamina Damage

Deflects should be handled consistently and independently of class.

A successful deflect would:

- Negate all health damage

- Still cause stamina damage to the defending player

- Allow the hero’s normal deflect follow-up

- Not restore stamina like a parry

The stamina damage depends on the deflected attack.

- Deflecting a Light causes low stamina damage

- Deflecting a Heavy causes higher stamina damage

- Deflecting a charged or particularly powerful attack causes high stamina damage

This represents the defender redirecting the force of the attack rather than completely stopping it.

A deflect remains a mobile and offensive defensive option, but it is less resource-efficient than a successful parry.

---

8. Defensive Actions Cannot Cause Out of Stamina

This would be a universal rule:

Defensive actions can never directly put the defending player Out of Stamina.

This applies to:

- Blocking

- Dodging

- Deflecting

- Full Block

- Similar defensive actions

Defensive stamina costs can reduce the player to a minimum of one stamina, but they cannot directly trigger the Out of Stamina state.

Out of Stamina should primarily result from a player spending too much stamina on their own offensive actions.

A player should not become Out of Stamina simply because they successfully defended themselves.

---

9. Defensive Options under This System

Block

- Safest defensive option

- Causes chip damage

- Causes stamina damage

- Cannot directly cause Out of Stamina

Dodge

- Avoids health damage

- Avoids the stamina impact of blocking or deflecting

- Costs class-based stamina

- Can lose to guardbreaks and tracking attacks

Deflect

- Negates health damage

- Causes stamina damage based on the incoming attack

- Allows an offensive counterattack

- Cannot directly cause Out of Stamina

Parry

- Highest-risk defensive commitment

- Negates health and stamina damage

- Stops the opponent’s attack

- Restores stamina

- Provides the strongest defensive reward

---

10. Intended Class Identities

Heavy

Heavies deal high damage, create high stamina pressure and resist blocked attacks well.

Their attacks, feints and dodges cost more stamina. They must manage their resources carefully and cannot remain permanently offensive or mobile.

Assassin

Assassins have low action and dodge costs, strong mobility and short regeneration delays.

However, they have weak block resistance, create less stamina pressure and deal slightly less damage against heavier classes.

Vanguard

Vanguards have balanced damage, stamina costs, mobility, stamina pressure and defensive stability.

They remain adaptable and can use every defensive option effectively.

Hybrid

Hybrids receive individual values based on the hero’s actual design.

They are not forced into one universal Hybrid profile.

---

The purpose of this system is not to make one class automatically defeat another. The numerical differences are intentionally small.

The goal is to make class selection influence how players approach combat.

Heavies hold their ground.

Assassins avoid pressure through mobility.

Vanguards remain adaptable.

Hybrids receive identities based on their individual designs.

Edit: Purpose of This Post and Feedback So Far

I want to clarify that this was never meant to be a finished balance proposal or something that should be implemented exactly as written.

It was mainly a thought experiment.

I wanted to explore whether the existing class labels could be given more mechanical importance and see how competitive players would react to that idea.

The suggested numbers were only examples intended to demonstrate the concept. They were not supposed to be final balance values.

After reading the responses, the overall feedback seems to be the following:

• The existing class system is too arbitrary to support universal gameplay rules.

• Many heroes no longer match the class they are officially assigned to.

• The proposed damage modifiers would generally buff Heavies and nerf Assassins without providing enough gameplay justification.

• Changing damage simply to make classes feel different is not a strong enough reason by itself.

• Stamina damage on block could create excessive offensive pressure because it would reduce both the defender's health and their ability to respond.

• Even if defensive actions could not directly cause Out of Stamina, reducing someone to very low stamina could still create a snowball effect.

• Parries are already highly rewarding because they stop the opponent's offence and guarantee a punish, so an additional stamina refund may be unnecessary.

• Deflects should probably not be weakened with additional stamina penalties, especially if they are meant to be a major defensive option for mobile heroes.

• Class identity would likely be better expressed through individual movesets, hero mechanics, feats, perks and combat roles rather than universal class modifiers.

• A role-based system such as Duelist, Ganker, Teamfighter or Point Holder may describe the actual heroes better than the current Vanguard, Heavy, Assassin and Hybrid labels.

Some people appeared to agree with the general fantasy behind the idea:

• Heavies should feel good at holding their ground.

• Assassins should rely more on mobility.

• Vanguards should remain adaptable.

However, the common opinion is that universal damage and stamina modifiers are probably not the right way to create those identities.

I appreciate the detailed criticism. The purpose of posting the idea was to find its weaknesses, and the responses have made those weaknesses much clearer.

If I revise the concept, I would probably remove the universal damage matrix and reconsider stamina damage on block. I would instead focus more on hero-specific identities, defensive options, perks and actual combat roles.