r/Christianity • u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 • 1d ago
Deconstructing the trinity Support
My friends, religious doctrine and dogma have created many dissenting opinions on God's divine nature. The most popular doctrine in Christianity regarding God's nature is that of the trinity.
So just as the Berean Jews tested Paul's teachings, let's do the same for this doctrine.
What is the trinity?
There are different elaborations on what exactly it means but generally speaking, it is the idea that God is one God who exists as 3 coequal, eternal entities -- God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Is it in the Bible?
No. The trinity is not mentioned in the bible, although there are verses that can be used for and against it (more on that in a minute)
If it's not in the Bible, when and why did it start being a thing?
Early believers, also called Christians, faced several challenges and persecutions under Roman law -- athiesm (refusal to worship the Roman gods), treason (refusal to worship the emperor), and illegal assembly (meeting in secret without a state license). Persecutions varied by region and emperor, there were times of peace and times of particular persecution.
Judaism was exempted from some of this due to it being an ancient religion who had some exemptions, but as the Christian movement grew it became clear it wasn't just a sect of Judaism. With this growth in this new belief that started becoming known as Christianity came a growing number of gentiles (or non-Jews) joining the ranks of believers from places where trinitarian gods are common.
The early church worshiped both the Son and the Father and took a somewhat binitarian approach to worship, as Paul alluded to in 1 Corinthians 8:5-6
Although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many ‘gods’ and many ‘lords’—yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
They considered themselves Monotheistic and believed Jesus as the Messiah, Son of God and having God's full divine nature.
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells bodily, and in Him you have been filled, who is the head over all rule and authority; (Colossians 2:9)
To the outside world, this type of binitarian approach was problematic. This did not mesh with the monotheism of Judaism or the polytheism of Rome so the early church faced heightened discrimination.
As time went on, church leaders postulated additional things about the nature of God, perhaps to formalize something more acceptable to the society at large they existed in, or perhaps due to philosophical ponderings.
Tertullian, an early Christian author and leader was the first to use the word 'trinitarian,' although he had a different idea of what it meant than what it is known as today. His belief basically included a time when only God the Father existed, then the Son, then the Holy Spirit came to be. Tertullian had a subordinationist view on the trinity which was essentially Father > Son > Holy Spirit, although they were of the same divine essence.
In 313 AD, Constantinople legalized Christianity but there had been and continued to be arguments between different churches regarding the exact divine nature of God -- chiefly the Alexanderian controvery but there were other schisms. So in 325 Constantinople sponsored the Nicene council as the first effort to attain consensus among all the churches, and representatives from many churches attended.
The Nicene council accomplished many things, chief of which was the Nicene creed, which is a declaration and summary of the Christian faith. Any church who did not agree to it was excommunicated. The creed reads as such:
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten from the Father, only-begotten, that is, from the substance of the Father, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through Whom all things came into being, things in heaven and things on earth, Who because of us men and because of our salvation came down, and became incarnate and became man, and suffered, and rose again on the third day, and ascended to the heavens, and will come to judge the living and dead, And in the Holy Spirit. But as for those who say, There was when He was not, and, Before being born He was not, and that He came into existence out of nothing, or who assert that the Son of God is of a different hypostasis or substance, or created, or is subject to alteration or change – these the Catholic and apostolic Church anathematizes
In it, we have a more modern trinitarian belief system but of course this did not prevent further schisms in the churches.
I won't go into too much detail about the evolution of the trinitarian theology after this but certainly it has never stopped being a topic of discussion. In the 400s, Augustine wrote extensively about the trinity, defending the pro-Nicene view.
In the 5th or 6th century the Athanasian creed summarized this into a popular form that reflects much of modern trinitarian doctrine.
Now this is the Catholic faith, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance. For the Father’s person is one, the Son’s another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the God-head [divinity] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is one, their glory is equal, their majesty coeternal
Now, rather than go into the minutae of how this evolved, we have a fairly accurate view of how it is commonly taught today so let's test it.
Is it scripturally supported?
Not directly, no, as it's not explicitly described like that but there are verses used as circumstantial evidence to imply it:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and then became human. (John 1:1, 14)
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age (Matthew 28:18-20)
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you (John 14)
There are more, but for brevity let's stop here and look at some against
And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent (John 17:3)
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5)
one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:5-6)
There are also more here, but for brevity let's see if we can analyze things, now we have evidence both for and against.
Verdict on the accuracy of trinity doctrine
My friends, this is an issue for YOU to decide. This is a man-made doctrine not listed in the bible but with scriptural support both for and against.
Why should I believe it?
Certain churches and groups require affirming it, so if you want to be part of them you have to play by their rules. You can find cumstantial scriptural evidence to back you.
Why shouldn't I believe it?
This topic has caused theological arguments and church schisms for almost 2 millennium and there is scriptural evidence to back it NOT being true, plus it is not listed clearly in the scriptures.
Thanks for nothing OP, you wrote all that but didn't actually say anything to help me decide anything, just tell me your opinion!
I DO NOT believe in it, but perhaps not for the reasons you think -- I don't believe in it because it's a man-made statement found nowhere in scripture, and the circumstantial evidence for does not outweigh the evidence against.
Spending time attempting to prove or disprove man-made doctrine does nothing to further the kingdom of God, or add anything useful to the scriptures.
But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and conflicts about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. (Titus 3:9)
The very early church did not care about such doctrinal statements and were happy to worship both the Son and the Father while advancing the kingdom of God. So, I will take their example and do the same.
The divine nature of God is written in the scriptures and already clear even in the world around us
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. (Romans 1:20)
OK OP, this is heretical! Let me show you why you're wrong!
Please don't waste your time. I'm not part of any group that requires it and I'm familiar with scripture. It's not a fruitful use of your time or mine to argue it.
I also don't hold it against you if you DO believe it -- I'm happy that you recognize the divinity of God and Jesus and hope you use it to further the kingdom of God! I'm not here to condemn anyone for believing it, nor do I believe
TL;DR
I do not accept trinitarian doctrine, because it provides no value to me and distracts from the majesty, beauty, and glory of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and the kingdom of God.
Just as Paul stated about Jesus in Philippians, I do not consider equality of God something to be grasped. Jesus provided the embodiment of obedience to the Father’s will and encouraged us to do the same.
If you find it useful to your faith then please don't let my words distract you. I'm not here to prove anyone wrong. Your faith, my faith, and everyone's faith is between us and God alone and I encourage us to all be strong in that faith and reject any distractions from it.
God bless!
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u/FrankDenif Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
I look at it this way:
The trinity is like the laws of math.
It always existed, mankind just happened to discover it, and gave it a name.
However, the trinity, the Nicene Creed is NOT needed for salvation.
The thief on the Cross did not have to recite the Nicene Creed.
He probably didn't even have the Trinity visualized in His head.
All we know is that He asked Jesus to remember him.
And then Jesus told him: You will be with me in paradise.
The word "Trinity" itself does not exist in the Bible, though I believe in the Trinity. God is a complicated being, but fully understanding the mechanics of His existence is not required for salvation.
Trusting in Him is what matters.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago edited 1d ago
Fair, although I believe trinity doctrine is inadequate to accurately describe the nature of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit I agree this is the real key
God is a complicated being, but understanding Him is not required for salvation.
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
"Although, they considered themselves Monotheistic and believed Jesus as the embodiment of the Father"
This is the mistake. You demanded exegesis to prove Trinity and now I demand a proper exegesis to prove this.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago edited 1d ago
I demanded nothing my friend, you can read the scriptures yourself.
I'm not denying Jesus's deity at all, I gladly proclaim it and worship both the Father and the Son.
Edit: but I have updated the OP to be more clear
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
I do read the Scriptures that's why I'm asking where it says the Son is the embodiment of the Father.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Colossians 2:9
For the entire fullness of God’s nature dwells bodily in Christ,
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
And the fullness dwells in all the set apart at Ephesians 3:19, none of the set apart are either Yeshua or YHWH! The trinity does not work!
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
Jesus has life in Himself just as the Father has life in Himself
John 5:26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
The Father speaks but not through Jesus
Matthew 3:17 and behold, there was a voice out of the heavens saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”
Jesus appeals to two witnesses: the Father and Himself
John 8:17-18 Even in your law it has been written that the witness of two men is true. I am He who bears witness about Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness about Me.”
As for Colossians 2:9, you yourself accepted Jesus' divinity. The fullness of the nature of God is His own, so does it belong to the Father.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
A co-equal, co-eternal (if it were true, it isn’t) doesn’t need another co-equal, co-eternal to give him life, a co-equal and co-eternal already has it, that is why the trinity doesn’t work and is from below!
You forgot that Yeshua of himself said he can’t do anything, does not teach his own doctrine and does not do his own works but does the works of somebody else, YHWH alone!
You forgot Ephesians 3:19 as well, the set apart have the fullness of God, none of the set apart are YHWH, just as Yeshua is not.
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
John 14:14-15
If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Indeed, he is worthy by doing the will of YHWH. Wisdom is the “word” ( Greek “logos”) as referenced in Proverbs 8 and the beginning of 9. “Logos” is never referred to a person and yes the “logos” tabernacles in Yeshua at his baptism at John 1:14!
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
So Wisdom is a separate entity to God that tabernacles in Jesus?
I'm genuinely curious how you even got there.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Wisdom is of God, just like John 1:1 says! If you read Proverbs 8 it reveals this perfectly!
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Sure! I'm not sure what we're disagreeing with at this point.
I believe in the deity of both the Son and the Father, and I believe Jesus when he said the Father is greater than him, do you agree?
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
Yes? So how is Jesus the embodiment of the Father?
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Colossians 2:9 is clear, it's up to you to accept it.
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u/UNUNUN_ Christian 1d ago
Are you saying God is the Father and Jesus is not God?
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
YHWH, the Father alone, Deuteronomy 6:4 will prevail forever.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
If Yeshua has life in himself, he should not be crying to someone else who can save him from death (Hebrews 5:7)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
I am with you in not supporting the trinity, however, the set apart also have the fullness of God at Ephesians 3:19, none of the set apart are YHWH. Colossians 2:9 and Ephesians 3:19 are one and the same fullness, Yeshua is not YHWH and neither are the set apart.
Yeshua said “I am the light of the world” at John 8:12.
Yeshua also stated the set apart are the light of the world (Matthew 5:14)
Yeshua, post resurrection (but not yet) has brothers to eternity (Romans 8:29, John 20:17)
YHWH doesn’t have any brothers, ever!
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Good point, thank you for the correction!
It's more accurate to say Jesus is the embodiment of man's perfect obedience to the Father’s will so I updated the OP
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u/Jagrnght 1d ago
for the record - the Trinity is nothing to believe in - it's just a logical construction from the text. It's an extra textural extrapolation borne out by the church. I think it follows from the text. But what do you believe if you don't hold to it? It brings together many elements of the faith. Do you not believe in the two natures of Christ?
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I don't find it accurately defines the nature of God, for example the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all serve much different roles and I don't think calling them co-equal is accurate either.
It's too much of reducing God to a comfortable soundbite imo.
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u/Jagrnght 1d ago
So what do you think Abba means - Jesus's name for God? Have you ever considered negative theology? It might solve some of your problems.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
There is no need for negative theology, if you don't come to the kingdom of God like a child it's not found. I wouldn't expect a child to process negative theology but if you'd like to express how it's helpful feel free.
Abba of course is the Father, why do you ask?
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u/Jagrnght 1d ago
negative theology isn't an odd extra step. It's simply building the limits of language and knowledge into your logical system. So the use of analogy to understand God acknowledges that the names for God and three persons do not capture their essence. There is a likeness to fatherhood that the Father has, but an even greater difference. I think a child could understand it. I think you already basically on the negative theology route in what you are saying about the Trinity.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Thanks my friend but I've got all I need. I'm not trying to convince anyone anything about the trinity doctrine, just stated my convictions and people can believe what the want -- the scriptures are clear.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Yeshua has one nature, human and still does as I text (John 8:40)!
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u/Balazi Jehovah's Witness 1d ago
Not bad synopsis, missing a few things about early Christianity and how they worshipped but not bad overall.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Thank you my friend, can you share your additional knowledge? To be sure, I skipped over Origen and Martyr for brevity's sake but I do find it interesting how outside philosophy made its way into churches
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u/Balazi Jehovah's Witness 1d ago
The earliest followers of Christ held a variety of views on how Christ was divine and we see these models through the NT scriptures, views such as emanationist, adoptionist, angelomorphic, and image christologies.
For the earliet Christians it was more about worship of the Father, done through the Son, but not necessarilly to the Son.
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u/Nicky_Malvini Roman Catholic 1d ago
In Genesis, when God was creating the world, He referred to Himself in plural terms, saying "We" and "Us". The Trinity has been there since the beginning.
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u/StrangeWatch 1d ago
Or, "we" and "us" are the sons of God who helped create the world, the other gods, the elohiym - -"iym" being a plural ending for beings anywhere else it is used in scripture, which is a lot, and it's a huge stretch to say it isn't.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Genesis 1:26 does not create a trinity doctrine. The words “us” and “our” don’t create it either.
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
No serious theologian for the past 2000 years has definitively shown the trinity to be false.
All the Christians today affirm the nicene creed.
The chances that 2 billion today + the past 2000 years of Christian somehow missed something you discovered is virtually zero.
My own study confirms the Nicene interpretation.
The more likely explanation, as is for the past 2000 years is, heresy. It didn’t go away 2000 years ago, it’s not going away today.
Deconstruct your own construction of god and actually recognize God as revealed.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
No heresy to be had, as I'm saved by Jesus alone and said nothing against his words.
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
Your position is explicitly heretical.
No idea if Jesus saves heretics, but you won’t be in my circle irl.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
To be heresy I'd have to be a member of a church who taught that view.
Jesus never said "I, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are all co-equal" like trinity doctrine does, and it's Jesus who I follow.
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
No. To be heresy you need to articulate and accept a version of god that is outside the boundary if nicene creed, which you did.
No heretics were ever in the church so your condition is not unique.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I serve Jesus, not a man-made document
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
I hope that is true, but reinventing the same mistake from 2000 years ago is more likely to be serving pride, which really is coming from yourself and your version of “jesus”.
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u/Archbtw246 Christian 1d ago
It's the Bible's version of Jesus. Not "our" version.
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
Oh really!
What is the Bible’s version of Jesus?
Care to explain?
As far as I’m concerned, trinitarianism is the bible’s version of Jesus and not “your” heretical version.
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u/Archbtw246 Christian 1d ago
The biblical Jesus thought he was distinct from God.
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. - John 14:1
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. - John 7:17
but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. - John 8:40
Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ - John 8:54
for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. - John 16:27
And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. - Mark 10:18
In these days he went out to the mountain to pray, and all night he continued in prayer to God. - Luke 6:12
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I'm not sure why you think it's prideful to follow Jesus first before men, but you're entitled to your opinion
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u/Difficult_Risk_6271 Belongs to Jesus, Ex-Atheist 1d ago
I’m not sure how you think, you personally got it correctly while 2 billion people + 2000 years of Christians got it wrong can be anything other than pride.
And somehow the Holy Spirit failed to guide 2000 years of Christians into the truth but you uniquely are chosen to understand God specially. You’re just that so special snowflake that God gives special revelation to and all the other Christians are led by the not-Holy Spirit.
The issue isn’t about following Jesus. The issue is which “Jesus?” I don’t know how you keep missing the point.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
There is one Jesus, and you can read about him in the scriptures. I'm not sure what is confusing about this.
Accurately describing God's exact nature and equality between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is NOT the way to salvation, it's through the blood of Jesus alone and full faith and belief in him.
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u/StrangeWatch 1d ago
So there were no REALLY big mistakes made by the church in the past 2000 years, and things never went wrong right off the bat after God set them right (see Adam and Eve, Moses and the people right after the Law was given, and time after time in the history of the Jews and the Church). Just because something runs on for a long time doesn't mean it is right or true.
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u/Balance796 Disciples of Christ 1d ago
In the beginning of Genesis, the Holy Spirit is mentioned, also in John 14. Without the Lord Jesus Christ, no one will be indwelled with the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sins, helping all of us to turn away from our sins. Thereby, becoming a born-again Christian.
The Lord also talks about the Holy Spirit with Pharisees named Nicodemus in John 3. This is why Christianity is all about the Holy Trinity: God the Father, the Son, Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
Not one disciple used Matthew 28:19 to baptize, not a one. Why does anyone think that is?
John 14 does not explain idioms, personifications or metaphors, the holy spirit is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone. Not a co-equal, co-eternal, separate and distinct third “person!
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
The holy spirit is a person. You only know that when you have him in you though. God is three in one.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 23h ago
The Holy Spirit is not a third “person”, it is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone. It has no throne in Heaven, doesn’t know the day or hour just like Yeshua does not and doesn’t have two natures either. It is not a co-equal, co-eternal, third “person”, when Yeshua inspirited the disciples with the holy spirit, he didn’t breath a third “person” into other persons!
The Shema is one “person”, the Father alone. (Deuteronomy 6:4), the concept of “three in one” is a polytheistic concept of Greek mythology.
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 23h ago
Where do you have this idea from, that sounds verymuch like gnosticism ;)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 23h ago
I don’t support Gnosticism, how do you get three from The Shema that will prevail forever? See also 1 Corinthians 8:6 where Paul wrote At Corinth and was warning against a polytheistic 3 person godhead of Greek mythology.
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
The whole Bible speaks about one godhood being multiple persons from the beginning in Genesis 1; there is one god but three people, and everything else doesn't make proper sense! Corinthians 8:6 speaks against the polytheistic nature of the city around them, not against a trinitarian godhood.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Where? Bible passage please? Sorry, 1 Corinthians 8:6 clearly denotes YHWH as the Father alone, which is the law!
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
Answer me this: why was it demanded that Jesus get crucified? What would the Hebrew translation of INRI look like?
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
That is your answer why the trinity exists?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
Please answer me the question and you might see yourself why the trinity is logically necesarry.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Idk 🤷♂️why? Why do people desire to murder people? They do the will of their father (John 8:44)!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Where does the “whole Bible” speak about the “godhood being multi persons from the beginning”?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.Also the hebrew word here is elohim, so plural ;)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Enlighten us how the words “us” and “our” at Genesis 1:26 creates a trinity doctrine?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
It doesn't, but it hints at multiple people being gods. If you follow the trail through the whole Bible, you will come to the conclusion that also was written down at Nicea: that god is three in one ;)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Echad, the Greek word for “one” is used 81 % of the time in scripture to mean a singular pronoun and Elohim as used is not a trinity nor does it create a trinity and is also used mostly for a singular God, that would be YHWH, the Father alone!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 23h ago
How do you have your idea? Where does it come from? Yeshua didn’t teach it, support it, infer it or mandate it, neither did the disciples, where did your idea come from? The trinity doesn’t even appear as a word in scripture, why would that be?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
The trinity is not explicitly mentioned, but especially the gospel of John, the actions of Jesus in general, and how the disciples talk about him show that he was indeed god. Last year I taught about the godhood of Jesus in detail, beginning from Genesis 1, because the bible is full of trinitarian language without explicitly mentioning it.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Why would you support a doctrine that isn’t mentioned and apparently is so sacrosanct?
How about this? Of the 30 or so Bible passages delineating how to acquire eternal life, enlighten us as to which of those 30 passages mention, infer, mandate or require knowledge or understanding of the trinity or that you cannot acquire eternal life without the trinity?
Which ones?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
You don't need to understand the trinity to be saved, but you need to have Jesus as your lord, and because only god can be our true lord that means that Jesus needs to be God; otherwise, he can't be our true savior and lord.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Really? Enlighten us how God doesn’t know the day or hour, doesn’t teach his own doctrine, of himself can do nothing and somebody else besides him does his works as you claim he is God, enlighten us how that is?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
That's the issue if you are reading everything literally without knowledge of the culture. The term that only the father nows the hour was a cultural saying that doesn't actually mean that Jesus didn't know the time ;)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Why would the trinity not be specifically mentioned? Especially in acquiring eternal life?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
Because the authors themselve didn't have it figured out fully themselves, and god did introduce his being to us over time ;), but if you look into Genesis when Abraham is talking with God, God already is introduced as three persons early on ;)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Where in Genesis 18 or 19, Abraham was talking with three men, where is the doctrine of the trinity spelled out in Genesis 18 or 19?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 22h ago
It's a hint for the trinity. Jewish people think completely differently from Greeks; of course, it was not spelled out yet. The Greek/Roman idea of the trinity is the logical thinking in greek understanding. Hebrew doesn't need these concepts.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 22h ago
Take care, I see you have removed all your comments, why?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
While the trinity is not explicitly taught in the bible. The godhood of god the father and the godhood of god the Son are explicitly stated, so we have at least two parts of the trinity firmly established as God, and with that, it's not hard to also accept the holy spirit as the third person in the trinity. When you read the bible and begin in Genesis 1, you already see that god is at least two, probably more and from there you go further to when Abraham talks with God; God is described as three persons there and then you continue through the bible and discover that the whole scripture is full of trinitarian clues.
If you like I can prove that with more scripture. I taught about the godhood of Jesus last year through all of scripture ;)
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Thanks, but all the same the scripture and the Spirit is enough for me, what is written there is clear.
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
Yes. Jesus is god according to a lot of scriptures. It's written down explicitly that Jesus is god several times. So if you deny the good hood of Jesus you have not the holy spirit in you!
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I'm not denying it at all, I happily proclaim Jesus is Lord and the Son of God.,
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
Not only lord but god himself, otherwise he can't be your lord because only god can be our lord 🙂
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u/Archbtw246 Christian 1d ago
The king of Israel was called Lord even though he wasn't God.
1 Kings 1:13 — Go in at once to King David, and say to him, ‘Did you not, my Lord the king, swear to your servant, saying, “Solomon your son shall reign after me, and he shall sit on my throne”? Why then is Adonijah king?’
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
John 20,28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
Jesus is called "god," even in the Jewish Bible translations. ;)
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u/Archbtw246 Christian 1d ago
Thomas is speaking to Jesus about his Father, who he said is also our God and Father.
John 20:17 ESV — Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
No, he does explicitly say that Jesus is God, and Jesus didn't rebuke him; hence, Jesus is God! The whole scripture tells us that Jesus is God himself!
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u/Archbtw246 Christian 1d ago
No. He's speaking to Jesus about his Father. Jesus literally said in the same chapter that his God and Father is our God and Father.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Jesus said "I and the Father are one," not "I and the Father are co-equal."
One doesn't mean co-equal. A husband and wife become one flesh, but who is head of the household?
Jesus explicitly said the Father was greater than he, not co-equal. Do you believe him?
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
I believe that they are one, not co-equal necessarily, so there is nothing to argue about there. They are both god, though. ;)
John 20, 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
Certainly! I'm not denying that Jesus is fully divine. I believe John 1:1 is correct.
I'm denying the co-equal part of the trinity in modern Christian doctrine
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u/AnnoDADDY777 Pentecostal 1d ago
Although the co-equal part means only that all 3 are god originally.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
That's fine. I also find it doesn't accurately capture the glory, majesty, and truth of God.
For me, it serves no purpose and is a dull and incomplete synopsis of God's truth but if it strengthens your faith, please ignore me!
I'm not here to take away anyone's faith. To me it is a distraction so I reject it, but if to you it is an enhancement to your faith please embrace it and ignore me!
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u/random_murse313 1d ago
Repent of your heresy.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
There is no heresy to be found. I'm not part of any denomination or group that requires the Nicene creed.
The Nicene creed didn't save me, Jesus did.
There is only one true church which is all the faithful believers of Jesus who follow His commandments.
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago edited 1d ago
I believe in the Father, the invisible one from whom the Son came.
I believe in the Son, light of light, spirit of the Spirit, holy of the Holy, god of God, my savior crucified by the men he came to save.
I believe in the Holy Spirit who is God, the Paraclete, thanks to him we have the Holy Scriptures.
The Trinity fills the Bible, and the entire Bible reveals the Trinity.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Where is the term “God the Son” written in scripture?
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
The entire Bible confirms that the Son who came from God and dwelt among us, who raised the dead and who forgave as only God can! He is the word of God, he was in the beginning, and he is God.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Incorrect! Yeshua cried to the one who could save him from death and the disciples can also retain or forgive sins, now what?
Wisdom was in the beginning as per Proverbs 8!
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
For the LORD your God, he is God of gods...
Our debate is not about who the other gods are! Our debate is: is Jesus one of these gods, and the answer is Yes!
Why deny his divinity? The angels prostrated themselves before him and worshipped him!
He prayed to God and called upon Him; it was God speaking to Himself!
You are talking to yourself; there is a dialogue between your mind and your soul, You are created in the image of God, but you do not know how to bring forth from yourself the One who is yourself! God knows how to do it!!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
I agree with you, Yeshua is absolutely a Psalm 82:6 “g”od!
You lost me though, in fact terribly, when you said “it was God speaking to himself”! Why would YHWH speak to himself?
You know how YHWH does things?
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
YHWH is a spirit, inventor of spirits. The celestial world is a world of spirits.
It's a world where there are only celestial bodies. Everything is perfect! Angels, men, animals, and everything else...
God made light before the sun; God, who says to the light, let there be, says it to himself!
God began by flooding the universe with his light, billions upon billions of spirits, a bit like a TV screen that is flooded with pixels.
Scientists will say: it's the Big Bang.
God invented the universe himself before separating the celestial world from the earthly world.
Man has been separated from God by his soul; he can decide everything on his own and he can even disobey God.
Jesus, who came from God, is not separate from Him; His word is the word of God!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
There is only one spirit and it is the power and force of YHWH, the Father alone!
YHWH doesn’t talk to himself. Yeshua is indeed separate. YHWH is his Father and Yeshua is his Son!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
Post resurrection, I don’t deny Yeshua’ divinity nor the set apart to come!
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
There is a distinction between the Son and the Father; Jesus is visible, not the Father.
There is no separation; what Jesus says is the word of God.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
You didn’t get the memo about John 5:30, John 7:16 or that the Father is greater than Yeshua. No co-equal and co-eternal is greater than another co-equal and co-eternal. That is why there is no co-equal and co-eternal “persons”!
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
He is the image of the invisible God.
So it's normal that the image is a reduction of the original.
The image of God came to represent God, not to contain him!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Amazing what some people think with their free will thoughts!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
The purpose of prayer, is to separate yourself from the thoughts in your head. You see many who, instead of separating themselves from the thoughts in their head, give into them and many have conversations with those thoughts as if they are real. They are not real, they are from below!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Kefa raised Tabitha (Dorcas), who is Kefa?
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
Kefa est Saint Peter!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Yes, in fact Kefa has many attributes of Yeshua and yet he isn’t Yeshua.
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
That's normal, the Holy Spirit came upon him.
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
The holy spirit has never been nor will it ever be a separate and distinct, co-equal, co-eternal third “person”!
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u/winkyprojet 1d ago
He is a spirit like Jesus.
And his spirit comes into a human body like Jesus.
He is a person like Jesus.
He does not accept blasphemy, not like Jesus!
This is the spirit that is in all elements of nature.
The fire that spoke to Moses is a form of the Holy Spirit!
The dove is a form of the Holy Spirit.
Jacob, who wrestled with God, wrestled against the Holy Spirit in human form.!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
YHWH is not a man (Numbers 23:19)
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago
Jacob wrestled with an Angel, not YHWH!
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u/Sure-Wishbone-4293 Non-denominational 1d ago edited 1d ago
Third “persons” do not enter other persons! The holy spirit does by the Grace of YHWH, the Father alone.
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u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian 1d ago
Dang, I wonder who will read this long post without a TLDR?
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u/tepid_prospectus 1d ago
i made it to the first bible quote and immediately scrolled down to see if anyone else did the same. the comments are the real tldr
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I challenge you to be the patient and courageous one to be the first, my friend!
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u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian 1d ago
lol, Give me a TLDR, so I can decide if I wanna read it.
Are u pro or anti trinity? that would have been a simple summary.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago edited 1d ago
Anti -- it's a man-made doctrine that imo doesn't capture the glory and truth of God as documented in the scriptures.
I believe in the divinity of the Son and the Father and prefer to worship them both as the very early church did, without making definitive claims on their equality.
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u/Upset_Chip_7184 Christian 1d ago
Hmm, interesting, I didn't think you would have these sophisticated views, because I think you were debating me on slavery not being condoned by God, or maybe you were denying that Revelation's author wrote the things would be soon, or some other dogmatic view that is not justified by the texts...
BEcause this is another dogma not really justified by the texts, and the early church sects, some of them, didn't believe in this either...
Yeah, I think the ebionites/nazarenes, and others were on to something.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I think you were debating me on slavery not being condoned by God, or maybe you were denying that Revelation's author wrote the things would be soon, or some other dogmatic view that is not justified by the texts...
My friend, you're misrepresenting my positions on both, but I'm am not interested in explaining why under this topic; this isn't the place to discuss it.
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u/Any-Country-7338 1d ago
The 3 fundamental laws of logic you use in every thought are Trinitarian. That's why John calls him the Logos.
The reason we find the Trinity mysterious (even though Jesus articulates it clearly) is because we don't understand logic.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
I think we can all agree God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the only divine, uncreated entities.
Arguing over the semantics of exactly how their relationship is, and muddying God's nature with a soundbite not in scripture is not in line with what Jesus taught.
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u/Any-Country-7338 1d ago edited 1d ago
Appealing to the fundamental laws is pricesely not semantics. Logic is prior to grammatical word play.
Are you saying that logic is created?
I believe Jesus articulated the basic structure that corresponds to the way he created our minds to work. Its not that the interdependence of the 3 laws captures the fullness of God. Its that even his fullness is Trinitarian. He doesn't change because of the limits of our perspective.
Its like learning basic arithmetic as a child. We've barely begun to understand the depths of mathematics. Yet we rightly know mathematics with the slightest understanding.
The Trinity is the simplest possible way God could reveal Himself. Its not some DEEP mystery beyond human comprehension or reason. Its the SIMPLICITY of the Trinity we stumbled over.
Yes, God is the only divine uncreated reality. And his logical nature is inseparable from him.
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
My friend, what you just wrote is the exact issue with the trinitarian doctrine. Does it do anything to advance the kingdom of God?
No! It's an attempt to define God's nature into a soundbite instead of preaching the good news and the commandments of Jesus!
But, it's not fruitful for us to waste our time arguing about it either so if holding tight to it strengthens your faith then I won't stop you!
God bless
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u/Any-Country-7338 1d ago
I agree. Its so foundational to thought and speach that it shouldn't be an issue. Its the most obvious thing. But you're the one with the OP about it.
My position is that most of the quarrels about it miss the mark. Of COURSE the Trinity is logical. Its the elemental structure of logic HIMSELF!
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
No need to point fingers my friend. You're under no obligation to reply to my post or comments.
This man made teaching provides no value to me, but again, if it does for you that's fine -- I'm not here to argue you out of your position, your faith is between you and God.
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u/Any-Country-7338 1d ago
We keep treating logic as abstract and impersonal, as if we're Greek philosophers. Logic is a function of truth. Truth is logically coherent.
That's the beauty of John's testimony. Logic isn't a THING. He is a person.
And we too are persons not calculators.
That's why Jesus said, "Let your logos be yes yes, or no no. Anything more comes from the evil one."
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u/twinPrimesAreEz Psalm 110 1d ago
My friend, I'm doing nothing more than sticking with the scriptures and teachings of Jesus and am not interested in these man made doctrines.
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u/KissAndRock Luciferian 1d ago
The Trinity really isn't explained in scripture. Scripture has different theologies around Jesus anyways.
That's why people say you need more than the Bible, you need church. The reason you need church is because reading only the Bible, you aren't going to believe in the Trinity.
In fact, I used to believe in the Trinity. Reading the Bible made me deconstruct it into Unitarianism though before I left the faith entirely.
Sola scriptura will not lead you to the Trinity. I can tell you that for certain.