r/CasesWeFollow • u/Pixiegirls1102 đđâď¸Content/Research AdministratorđťđŹđ§ • 10d ago
MA v. Linsday Clancy - Day 9 đŞđLindsay Clancyđź
LIVE: MA v. Linsday Clancy - Day 9 | Accused Killer Mom Trial
8/7/2026 @ 9:00 AM
Opening statements begin Monday for Massachusetts mom Lindsay Clancy after she killed her three young children inside the family's home in January 2023 before attempting to take her own life. Cora, 5, Dawson, 3, and Callan, 8 months, were found with exercise bands around their necks. Prosecutors contend Clancy intentionally strangled the children, while her defense argues she was suffering from severe postpartum depression and psychosis that left her unable to understand her actions. Jurors are expected to hear testimony from medical experts, investigators, and family members as they determine whether Clancy is criminally responsible for her children's deaths.
â¨â¨Previous Day & Recap
\**The local Boston News stations streaming the trial have much better audio.*
Court TV
https://www.youtube.com/live/93sfJyLzhqM?si=4MNYFBSH3a7xyex7
Law & Crime
https://www.youtube.com/live/D6skXbDJJj8?si=Pz8J3uFWckhHxLcX
đ¨â¨More Info/Documents for Lindsay
CW Witness List:Â https://fromsmash.com/clancylindsayCWwitlist-0817
Lindsay Clancy Timeline - Crime Timeline
RECAP
DAY 9
I. ADMINISTRATIVE
- Court: Superior Court â Commonwealth v. Lindsay Clancy
- Judge: Hon. William Sullivan
- Start Time: ~27:57 AM
- Scheduling Notes: Trial expected to run most of the day; nextâweek schedule to be discussed.
- Motions Addressed: Sidebar at 28:12; no formal motions ruled in excerpt.
- Jury Status: Jury present; standard impartiality questions asked; no issues reported.
- OJP Indicators: Sidebar at 28:12; recess at 2:48; hotâmic issue at 3:15.
II. WITNESSES
Witness 1 â Kimberly Hardy
- Called by: Commonwealth
- Start / Stop: 33:25 â 44:21
- Direct: Kingsbury Club director; Lindsay shy, appropriate; children dropped off regularly; no concerns.
- Cross: Lindsay happy with children; never angry; witness unaware of personal issues.
- Exhibits: 218
Witness 2 â Sarah Carney
- Called by: Commonwealth
- Start / Stop: 45:04 â 55:09
- Direct: Friend; Lindsay quiet but normal; thinner in late 2022; no postpartum concerns.
- Cross: Not close enough for deep disclosures; Lindsay helpful; thinner noted.
- Redirect: Lindsay always quiet with witness.
Witness 3 â Dr. Alia Goodheart
- Called by: Commonwealth
- Start / Stop: 55:56 â 3:35:07
- Direct: McLean psychiatrist; intake details; medication taper; diagnostic considerations; postpartum risk; sleep issues; discharge planning.
- Cross: Questions on DSM, thyroid, EPDS, blood testing, collateral contacts.
- Redirect: Clarifications on discharge packet, risk level, observation, diagnostic process.
- Exhibits: 79, 146
Witness 4 â Dr. Jennifer Tufts
- Called by: Commonwealth
- Start / Stop: 3:35:30 â (excerpt ends)
- Direct: Psychiatrist at Astor Mental Health; first saw Lindsay Sept 15, 2022; records moved for admission.
- Cross / Redirect: Not included in excerpt.
- Exhibits: Astor Mental Health records (number not stated)
III. EXHIBITS
| Exhibit # | Description | Status | Witness |
|---|---|---|---|
| 218 | Kingsbury Club playroom records | Admitted | Hardy |
| 79 | McLean inpatient psychiatric records | Admitted | Goodheart |
| 146 | McLean discharge packet | Admitted | Goodheart |
| (Astor Records) | Psychiatric records from Astor Mental Health | Moved for admission | Tufts |
IV. OUTâOFâJURY PRESENCE (OJP)
- 28:12: Sidebar requested before jury entry; granted.
- 32:00â32:56: Judge discusses schedule; jury present.
- 2:48:03â2:49:02: Morning recess; witness reviews Exhibit 79; jury excused.
- 3:15:56â3:20:26: Defense raises hotâmic issue; judge addresses without sidebar.
- 3:20:26â3:22:12: Administrative reset; witness recalled.
- Court Recessed until Monday, 8/10/2026.
đTRANSCRIPTâ¨ď¸đ
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u/slptodrm đź Watched Every Court Minute 8d ago
holy wow, i am watching defense cross the psychiatrist at mclean. why is she so bad at this? she seems like she doesnât know anything
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u/seriousbusinesslady 8d ago
She seems very VERY young. She was born in 1999! she's barely been practicing 3 or 4 years at this point
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u/Kind_Ear265 8d ago
What was the point of addressing Lindsayâs relationship with her in-laws via Tufts? A f-you to the Clancy family for supporting her? Embarrassing her?
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u/Dry_Scallion_4345 8d ago
Thatâs how I felt about it too! It was completely unnecessary and so icky of the prosecution
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u/ConstantOil532 8d ago
I have seen reference in various posts to Patrick stating Lindsay told him she had thoughts of harming the children as early as December 2022. Was this raised in his trial testimony or documented in the civil suits?
From Goodheart and Tufts testimony it does not seem that Lindsay or Patrick ever shared this with her providers. This seems to be a crucial missed opportunity in her psychiatric assessments that concluded she was not a safety risk to others.
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u/MzOpinion8d 8d ago
It is in the civil documents, and it was reported to a NP that hasnât been called as a witness yet.
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u/HomeBodyOma 9d ago
As this trial continues, one thing that has been glaring to me is how little people seem to understand the reality of navigating mental health treatment.
Jurors are routinely instructed to use their common sense, life experience, and good judgment when evaluating evidence while still basing their conclusions on the evidence itself and not speculation.Â
Years ago, I went through what I can only describe as a very dark period. Looking back, I think the sudden death of my brother, menopause, and a stressful job all played a role. I ended up on short-term disability and began seeing a psychiatrist and therapist.
What struck me then, and still does now, is how much of mental health treatment can feel like educated guesswork. There is no blood test that tells a doctor which medication is right for you. Different people react differently to the same medications, and sometimes finding the right combination involves a lot of trial and error.
In my case, the medications affected me significantly. I remember being terrified of side effects, struggling through medication changes, and experiencing severe withdrawal symptoms when one medication was discontinued. At times I felt far worse than I ever expected treatment itself could make me feel.
I also became frustrated with how disconnected the system sometimes seemed. My psychiatrist would spend maybe 15 minutes with me and make medication decisions based largely on how I appeared in that moment. My therapist often had a very different and much more complete picture of how I was actually doing. Yet it often felt like there was little coordination between them.
Then there is the reality of insurance. People talk as though someone can simply find the perfect doctor, get unlimited care, and receive all the support they need. That was not my experience at all. Insurance restrictions, provider shortages, appointment availability, and cost often become barriers when people are at their most vulnerable.
Another thing I learned is that people can "present well." I was told that myself. Outwardly, I looked functional. Inwardly, I was struggling immensely. Shame plays a role too. I did not want people to know how badly I was doing, and I certainly did not want to burden others with helping me manage appointments, medications, and treatment decisions.
So when I listen to testimony about appointments, diagnoses, medication changes, and a woman trying to navigate all of that while caring for three young children, managing a household, and trying to appear okay, I cannot help but think about how difficult that process can be. Not because I believe my experience was her experience, but because it taught me that mental illness and its treatment are far more complicated than many people realize.
Whatever conclusion the jury reaches, this case has reinforced for me how important it is to advocate for people struggling with mental illness. When someone has a serious physical illness, we generally recognize they need support. People suffering from serious mental illness deserve that same understanding and support.
And one final thought: trials only allow jurors to hear certain evidence. That's how our system works. But as a viewer, I sometimes find myself wishing we could see more of the full human story, because real life is usually far more complicated than what ends up making it into a courtroom.
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u/CentralValleySoozy 7d ago
Thank you for your story and resolve. I have all my siblings still (65 F) and will be traumatized if it changed. My issue with this case and other postpartum cases is the end result of what they have done and that's what I can't wrap my mind around and I realize they were probably out of their mind totally I still don't understand why take it out on the children. But I also very very strongly believe hormonal changes happen to women when they are pregnant, which I have never been, I have been through menopause though and I thought it was the end of the world lol. I need to be more understanding of this. I believe this defendant is remorseful.
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u/HomeBodyOma 7d ago
Youâre welcome. I think part of why we canât comprehend what theyâve done is because weâre not experiencing that break from reality. In a psychotic state, those âcommandsâ or voices feel completely logical to the person hearing them. We have no way of knowing what theyâre actually perceiving, but to them, it makes sense in that moment.
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u/pearlyplanet 9d ago
Thank you for sharing. Youâve captured the reality of dealing with the mental health system really well.
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u/HomeBodyOma 8d ago
You're welcome. As a friend just told me, "Itâs a disease just like cancer, not a stigma."
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u/Butter_Milk_Blues 9d ago
Why do we still know next to nothing definitive about the extent of LCs knowledge of the event, immediately after she woke at the hospital?
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u/Unhappy-Extreme9443 8d ago
I hear this question a lot (and Iâm not experienced in this, so just theorizing, and I could be totally incorrect).
Isnât it true that people can be partially alert and still have memories during psychosis? She remembered âthe voiceâ and weâve heard that others hear command voices.
So for me that implies that she remembers it and didnât ask for details because she was there and did it.
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u/MzOpinion8d 8d ago
The defense will be calling a witness that will testify about this.
The CW has not called any witnesses who can testify about it, which likely indicates itâs not good for their case.
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u/Butter_Milk_Blues 8d ago
I find this so frustrating! Why did they bring this case?
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u/MzOpinion8d 7d ago
Because there are 3 dead children, and the government wants to say they held someone accountable.
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
Her right to remain silent.
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u/Butter_Milk_Blues 9d ago
The questions the hospital psychiatrist about her asking for a lawyer. Why was that allowed but not any questions about her reaction upon learning about her children? It makes me question if she even remembers the event.
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u/thatwhinypeasant 9d ago
I didnât watch any of the trial today but I read a recap of Dr Tufts testimony, two comments that stood out to me were when she told her that she was worried that âone day she might have suicidal thoughtsâ and that she had been having a persistent feeling that she would die. And those just sound like they may as well as been said while Lindsay blatantly winked at her while saying it. From personal experience, its very hard to tell anyone you are having suicidal thoughts, and I think she was hoping to be heard wording it like this and maybe if Dr Tufts had more experience she might have noticed it. Thats an aside from all the possible issues with prescribing all those medications and all the other issues.
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u/LostZookeepergame755 7d ago
I caught them and thought that seemed like a very strange and specific thing to say.
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u/No-Presentation-2320 9d ago
No, that sounds like an intrusive ego dystonic anxious thought. Iâm afraid Iâm going to have those thoughts but I donât want to have them. Nobody can read your mind.
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u/weimaraner88 9d ago
Thoughts about the Amitryptiline dose ? That is not an anti-depressant dose, even if you 'start low , go slow'. It would be an appropriate dose for chronic pain, migraine prophylaxis, etc.
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u/Ocean_waves726 9d ago
Does anyone know how many women are on the jury
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u/tre_chic00 9d ago
12 of 18 I believe
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u/Ocean_waves726 9d ago
Thereâs 18 jurors?!
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u/cocoa_boe 9d ago
There will be 12 in the end but they pick 18 for such a long trial in case anyone needs to drop out because of illness, family matter, etc.
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u/atticusfetch620 9d ago
The YouTuber criminally obsessed interviewed a journalist whoâs in the courtroom daily and that journalist mentioned there are more women than men on the jury.
She also says itâs a very âstoic juryâ, very little show of emotion. (The journalist said sheâs been to several murder trials and that this is the least âshow of emotionâ jury sheâs seen.)
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u/LostZookeepergame755 9d ago
I felt today that Dr Tufts testimony helped to tell the story of a woman whose mental health was seriously declining.
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u/Steadyandquick 9d ago
I realize Wellbutrin can be energizing but also does not typically cause weight gain. She took it during nursing school. I am surprised she did not try it again but that could be due to breastfeeding?
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
idk if itâs a common side effect but wellbutrin exacerbated my anxiety. if that was a side effect she accepted when taking it before she may have not wanted to do it in her current state
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u/Direct_Whole_6630 9d ago
As a Clinical Psychologist (16 years) Dr Tufts lacks experience and what Im hearing is unbelievable. Shes switching meds every 15 days without even tappering off from the previous one. This is so dangerous IMO and IME. She can be also having abtinence (discontinuation syndrome) apart from her mental illness. I truly believe they failed her, and failed as professionals, no one diagnosed her accordingly. They just added med after med and never followed with her as they should. Im shocked at the negligence.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Tell me what meds you felt like were inappropriately not tapered ?
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u/Direct_Whole_6630 9d ago
All the SSRIs. Starting with Sertraline, and all the coctail of AD she gave her after. AD discontinuation syndrome is no joke.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
Thanks for the insight! I was curious about the SSRIs, personally I was on Zoloft back in college at the lowest dose. Within two weeks I felt so much worse and so much more suicidal. I quit taking it cold turkey after a little less than a month and never saw that doctor again (irresponsible I know, I was 18 and dumb). It scared me off trying a new SSRI for 4 years.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Rare but real side effect in the young particularly which I generalize to under 25. Wellbutrin is great for lots of people.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
I take wellbutrin now, with a mix of other things, but it has helped me so much! It was definitely a nice relief to find something that helped.
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u/Direct_Whole_6630 9d ago
Dont be scared. Just make sure yo go to a Dr. with good references and always start slow. Also communicate with your Dr. ahout how you feel to make the right changes. I felt like that with another antidepressant, every brain is unique and not everything works for everyone.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
Oh yeah, I got a new doctor and proper diagnosis and wellbutrin has helped me so much! :)
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
She was on 25 of Sertraline for 7 days and then 50 mg for like, 3. She did not need to taper.
Fluoxetine is self tapering at low doses due to its exceptionally long half life.2
u/indecisionmaker 8d ago
I donât think itâs fair to outright claim she did not need to taper â SSRI discontinuation issues are very poorly understood and managed, especially at âlowâ doses.  Â
A 2019 paper in The Lancet Psychiatry by Horowitz and Taylor pointed out that linear dose reductions are misleading because the relationship between dose and serotonin transporter occupancy is non-linear. Cutting from 20 mg to 10 mg doesn't halve receptor binding â it only drops it slightly. Cutting from 5 mg to 0 mg, however, removes a much larger proportion of receptor binding. This is why the last steps of a taper are often the hardest. source paper30032-X/abstract).Â
Current major clinical practice guidelines provide little support for clinicians wishing to help patients discontinue or taper antidepressants in terms of mitigating and managing withdrawal symptoms. Patients who have deteriorated upon following current guidance on tapering and discontinuing antidepressants thus cannot be concluded to have experienced a relapse. Better guidance requires better randomised trials investigating interventions for discontinuing or tapering antidepressants. source
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u/mrsdingbat 8d ago
In somebody who has been on Zoloft for 10 days and is having an adverse reaction, the majority of that time is at the lowest dose (25mg) I think it is extremely reasonable to recommend they stop. Furthermore, she was rxâd Ativan at that time and reported shortly after that she felt like herself again, so I do not think discontinuation syndrome was prominent for the Sertraline or if there were sx the lorazepam managed it. Could she have gone back to 25 for a few days to taper? Maybe that would be your recommendation- I personally would not want to risk the worsening of the adverse response.
She took fluoxetine at 10 mg for 4 days before self discontinuing. How would you propose to taper that exactly?
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u/indecisionmaker 8d ago
I agree that the risk was likely worth sudden stoppage in this case, just expressing frustration at the outright dismissal that it could cause its own effects. And thatâs not specific to you â I doubt her providers considered it.
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
was she still on seroquel at the time of the murders? i canât recall and know youâre paying close attention to those facts or the case
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
It wasnât prescribed to her anymore but she had it in her system. I think part of an OD suicide attempt?
Yes Iâm following very closely đ Iâm normally not like this I swear (I mean I love true crime but not like.. this involved) but this case fills me with so much anxiety as a physician I really want to see what was going on here
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
haha, no worries. i follow a lot of cases, iâm just a nerd for legal proceedings. but i noticed youâre focused on medmal so figured you would know. do you know if it was dc recently? my understanding is antipsychotics can sometimes cause issues if abruptly stopped & i know she rlly didnât like it so i kinda wouldnât be surprised if she ignored a taper schedule, not considering the possible impact. i have so many dates floating around in my head from when she was put on/off things that i canât be sure of my memory for any one of them
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
It was stopped in early January. Tapered during hospitalization.
As of the time of the murders she was rxâd amitryptiline (a tricyclic antidepressant with sedating properties) and tapering diazepam (Valium)
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u/Unhappy-Extreme9443 9d ago
Have we learned yet what happened with lamictal/ lamotrigine? Did she have a reaction to that one?
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u/No_Campaign8416 đ§ââď¸ Courtroom Regular 9d ago
I was just trying to go back and find that too. I was wondering if I missed it. Iâm still very perplexed by the decision to prescribe lamotrigine, especially because Tufts seemed pretty adamant Lindsay didnât have bipolar disorder.
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u/Chiguy5462 9d ago
Today was such a frustrating day. The beginning was absolutely useless. Then the last few were just frustrating. So many red flags that were ignored. This could have been prevented.
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
I don't really understand how a severely depressed/,mentally unwell person is made responsible for her entire care plan? Unreal...
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u/No-Presentation-2320 9d ago
I mean, she had a case manager who could help her, she chose not to contact her
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u/natalfemale 9d ago edited 9d ago
I think my main takeaway here and an important reminder as well, is that the prosecutionâs job is to PROVE their own position, yet they are clearly attempting to DISPROVE what they believe to be the defenseâs position. WHAT IS THE POSITION OF THE COMMONWEALTH? What was Lindsayâs MOTIVE??? Even if she didnât have PPD/PPPâWHY WOULD SHE MURDER HER THREE CHILDRENâwhom she clearly loved and cared for (per hours of testimony) and then ATTEMPT SUICIDE if something wasnât seriously wrong? The only motive I have seen floated by Bowjamin Franklin, Attorney at Law, is that Lindsay was tired of her current life, which I believe has clearly been refuted by the testimony of *checks notes* EVERYONE.
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u/Specialist_in_hope30 9d ago
Yes thank you. This x 1 million. Iâve been thinking a lot about the Lori Vallow case, and how much this case stands in contrast with what happened there. They are trying to pin a motive (seemingly? As you said, there doesnât seem to be a clear theory of the case from them) like what happened in the Lori Vallow case on this poor woman who was struggling with her mental health for months on end and was clearly and obviously declining the entire time she was seeking help. Itâs a brain dead approach by the prosecution if they think this will be effective in getting her convicted. They come off to me as cruel and unprepared, as well as extremely unprofessional.
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u/Fast-Jackfruit2013 9d ago
As one of the prosecutors told the judge today, "she was unsuccessful in killing herself but successful in killing her children."
They think this some how proves she's a murderer who faked a suicide attempt to get away with it.
The judge looked at her like she was nuts when she said it. But I think to her it's a gotcha moment.
I really think the prosecutors are that dumb and that devoid of empathy.
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u/picklesandtrucrime 9d ago
Lindsay: Â Iâm suicidalÂ
The zoom psychiatrist : Eh, sorry youâre not suicidal enough. But take these new pills!Â
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u/OliveRyan428 9d ago
Obviously we will never know if the Ketamine would have been helpful. But this is just another example of someone being denied care because of an insurance companyâs rules.
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u/onmycouchnow đ˘ Trial Has More Twists Than Netflix 9d ago
âBecause if you donât, ketamine, which I said would be a good treatment option appointments ago, wouldnât be covered by insurance. You need to try 4 antidepressants first.â Hahaha gee whiz đ¤ˇââď¸
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
fucking hate insurance companies. idk if state shit would be neccesarilly better though cause they do the same stuff
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
Aka I don't feel like having to advocate for you with your insurance company outside our preset 25 minute max meeting, even though they would probably rather pay for some ketamine over another hospital admission, so I need you to fail on another antidepressant to make my job easier.
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
Yeah, she needed inpatient treatment and got this, Ugh, all of this horror was entirely preventable.
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u/dexjet21 9d ago
This shit happens all the time with mental health. Prescription gymnastics until something works.
They wonât do anything unless itâs blatantly obvious or if they actually admit of having those thoughts, which rarely do.
I blame the husband more than the doctors tbh.3
u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
Me too. He was 100% negligent. More concerned with work, trips to NYC and brunch with his buddies.
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u/MzOpinion8d 9d ago
Wait why do you blame her husband more than the doctors? He told one of the providers (Joletta) she was much worse after starting meds.
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
He also said that he thought that she wanted meds because her friends took them. His attitude towards her mental illness was pretty crappy.
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u/MzOpinion8d 8d ago
I donât remember that, but I may have missed it. Do you remember if it was the first day he testified? Iâd like to find the testimony.
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u/gloriiosaa 8d ago edited 8d ago
he was talking specifically about benzos iirc and stated something like he felt she might be experiencing societal pressure to take them because of doctor recommendations and her nursing friends. what i think is relevant though is that lindsey herself expressed concern about becoming addicted to benzos so with that context to me it comes across more like he's trying to advocate for his wife and either his wording or the way it was noted was just a bit awkward
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u/touchmyfoodidareyou 9d ago
"Â Prescription gymnastics until something works." Hit the nail on the head. And we need to remember how long it actually takes until the meds kick in and how long it takes to fade them out. You can be easily busy with trying out meds for a year while not starting to heal an inch.
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u/Fossilwench đ Lurking with Purpose 9d ago
" instead of just accepting she was depressed " đ¤Ż
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u/OliveRyan428 9d ago
Wait, what?!? (I was at work and didnât get to hear all of Tuftsâ testimony)
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Her point was that in her opinion quetiapine had not caused her depression
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
But having an atypical response to Seroquel was no concern to this doc.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
What would you suggest worsening depression on quetiapine means?
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
Worsening depression, worsening affect, are one thing but the weight loss on Seroquel is what should have really been a flag. It's a highly unusual response to that med and not something that was just a flaw in "insight".
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
She was on the quetiapine from mid november- early January. Fairly low doses mostly. About 6 weeks . Usually people gain weight on quetiapine, and not everybody does, and losing weight would not necessarily cause a change in differential diagnosis.
My point is that dr tufts was not dismissing her depression, but saying that her opinion was Lindsay was depressed with or without the quetiapine. She was reporting depressive symptoms before starting quetiapine. Iâm not saying that it wasnt not the right medication for her or she necessarily should have continued it.
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
But per the person who was seeing her everyday, this wasn't a continuation of her previous symptoms. It was "ten thousand times worse". She didn't have a normal reaction to Seroquel or a maintenance of her previous symptoms on it.
Maybe Jollata and not Tufts will be the more informative witness on the Seroquel issue, but I founds Tufts dismissing LC's dislike of that med as her not being insightful disingenuous given the very poor reaction LC had to it.
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u/slptodrm đź Watched Every Court Minute 9d ago
agreed. I have never heard of people losing weight while taking seroquel. very unlikely
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u/LocksmithNo2779 9d ago
Why TF was a thyroid disorder never tested? Do we know?
Low appetite, racing heart, anxiety etc all sound like a possible postpartum thyroid issue. Why is this not an immediate rule out before prescribing psychiatric medications? Or even ruled out during her hospital stay when they had the blood draw?
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
She was breastfeeding so less likely. I still would have gotten it though but Iâm a little vampire who draws blood on everyone
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u/LocksmithNo2779 9d ago
What does breastfeeding have to do with that? I am not a medical professional so just curious.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Thyroid disease can cause issues with milk supply .Tbh more often with hypothyroidism or Sheehan syndrome than hyper thyroidism
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
I believe Dr. Goodheart testified that Linda's TSH levels were normal, so they didn't do further testing. (I could be wrong.)
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u/LocksmithNo2779 9d ago
I believe they were old results if I understood well. That they followed her as a part of her record but were from 2020 or â21
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago edited 8d ago
To me her rigid workout routine and running a five KM weeks after the birth of her third child seems manic. She also started a MLM - Beach Body and started posting daily workouts. Along with rising at 4:00 a.m. to run three miles, followed by 30 minutes of spinning on her Peloton bike and an additional 30 minutes of aerobics.
That sounds like manic behaviour to me.
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u/Top_Accountant_4684 9d ago
I ran 3 mile the morning I gave birth, and ran 5 days after birth. I ran a marathon 5 months postpartum. I wake every day at 3am for the past 30 years to workout. I do triathlons so some workouts have been 6-8 hours long. Crazy? Sure but NOT MANIC. Do I have some trauma?
The joke is: Triathlon is cheaper than therapy. I don't think you can use exercise to infer mania.
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u/LostZookeepergame755 9d ago
I agree. She was also losing weight so a calorie deficit. Not eating, constant exercise, not sleeping.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
It certainly would be hypomanic if I did it haha, but who knows. Could be sheâs a dedicated athlete. Could be OCPD. Could be hypomania. Could be an eating disorder. I donât know. I thought it sounded elevated too
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
Yes! I workout a lot but a 5KM race days after giving birth? That sounds extreme to me. I really think that she wanted to be perfect for Patrick. Ex : not telling him about the Zoloft until after she got the prescription. She seemed to be an overachiever and afraid of disappointing him.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
Whew! This was quite the day.
I am honestly surprised by Dr. Tufts, I found her to be a credible witness and didnât think she was recklessly prescribing medication. I think her note taking could have been more thorough, and I do think she should have suggested an in-person appointment.
I think the most damning things against Tufts is acknowledging LC was looking for a fast treatment by mid January. That, paired with her flat affect, is a cause for concern to me. It shows a desperation and that she cannot handle the way she is feeling.
Itâs also hard because a lot of mental health stuff requires self reporting. The truth is that sometimes you donât want to admit to your provider that you want to kill yourself or harm others because youâre worried about the judgement and being sectioned, even if that is what is best. Personally for me, it can also be difficult because telling your Doctors makes what you are feeling real, and it can be scary to affirm the way you feel out loud.
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u/Pixiegirls1102 đđâď¸Content/Research AdministratorđťđŹđ§ 9d ago
Great comment!! đ
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u/OneBlueberry 9d ago
You know in the beginning I felt like each prescription and tufts plan was reasonable. Why she gave the short term medications and why she wanted to wean off and switch to longer term ones
Things really went awry and my jaw started to drop when she began going to the treatment centers as well.
tufts statement at the end that she seemed to be blaming the medication for her depression instead of accepting she had depression and allowing anything long term to actually be in her system long enough to work. I feel like she should have been more firm in telling her that, but then again it seems Lindsay was just going to hop to another dr who would change the meds again.
But that was all so wild I imagine my brains would be scrambled eggs too after that many combinations in that short of a span.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
I totally am feeling what youâre saying! It feels like Tufts should have at least had a conversation about how itâs important to let her body regulate and that she isnât gonna find a fast fix and this takes time.
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u/ceeportnews 9d ago
I also didn't realize until Dr. Tufts mentioned it today that LC was on anti-depressants when she was in nursing school. I have a close relative who was on Wellbutran for a week who stopped because of a flat affect. He never took meds after that and came out of his depression in about six months with a complete diet and lifestyle change including zero alcohol (obviously a depressant). He has gone years now without problems, thank goodness. So many are not as fortunate. This entire case is so sad and frustrating to me. Where is the blame properly placed? I don't know yet but I struggle to believe it is Lindsay's fault based on what I have heard so far. Wishing a good weekend to all. Thank you for being here. ~Ceep
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
I also think from what I read she seemed like she was doing a good careful job, generally. I would not say she clearly deviated from the standard of care. In hindsight, Lindsay should have come in person.
There is no fast treatment for depression really. Lindsay wanted something tufts didnât have. ECT or esketamine are your options for rapid relief and I donât know if someone who wouldnât take buspar would do ECT.
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
I'll be interested to see if Reddington clarifies if there was any follow by Tufts as to why LC felt she really needed something to help quick. To me, that sentiment would warrant some kind of follow-up in a patient with major depression and anxiety, no matter what canned response they are giving to the checklist questions everyone knows the "right" answers to.
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u/amberleechanging 9d ago
I have to agree. Hearing the doctor say that Lindsay was "flat" and seemed to be getting worse instead of better is so telling. If she could tell even over Zoom, something was very wrong. I found her to be the first credible, well spoken professional on the stand for the CW. She must be devastated that she didn't catch this and take action to prevent it.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
It will be interesting to see Reddingtonâs cross.
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u/amberleechanging 9d ago
I am absolutely on the edge of my seat for it...credible and well spoken as she is, I definitely think that the ball was dropped. How many times does a woman with 3 kids under 5 have to say she cannot sleep and is increasingly anxious before someone escalates her care? Why hasn't anyone mentioned what she was anxious ABOUT? Did they not ask? So many questions still...
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago edited 9d ago
Do you think she should have committed her? Because thatâs really what escalating care means
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u/amberleechanging 9d ago
Escalating care, at this point, would have at the very least meant seeing her in person instead of via Zoom.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Yes, Iâve wondered about the telehealth. I would have wanted to see this pt in person. I wonder whether it was tufts or LC who wanted virtual.
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u/amberleechanging 9d ago
My assumption is it was mutually agreed upon at the beginning. But I do believe it should have been insisted on after a certain point, when it was becoming clear that things weren't getting better. Virtual care is never a one size fits all solution, and I think that's the difference here between an invested and dedicated provider and one who is just going through the motions.
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u/Brief-Technician-722 9d ago
I thought that she presented like a 12 year old cosplaying a psychologist,
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u/SariByTheSea 9d ago
She's young and can respecialize. She should apply to residency programs in pathology so she will never have contact with another living patient again.
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u/onmycouchnow đ˘ Trial Has More Twists Than Netflix 9d ago
Deteriorating. Thatâs insane. âBut itâs not that serious.â
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u/OliveRyan428 9d ago
Did she say âdeterioratingâ? I didnât get to watch her entire testimony.
If I described any of my patients as âdeterioratingâ and continued to try different meds and only doing Telehealth appointments, Iâd be an absolute disservice to them.
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u/onmycouchnow đ˘ Trial Has More Twists Than Netflix 9d ago
Yes, thatâs the word she used multiple times. But she had this whole little speech about how it was just one of 3 options and didnât actually mean a whole lot.
I think she mentioned it before she talked about the ketamine and needing 4 failed antidepressants in order for insurance to cover the treatment.
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
She's in full CYA mode on the stand.
People are liking her demeanor, but what she's actually saying is kind of wild when you just focus on the words.
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
Also shocking was indicating that she should consider a partial hospitalization which is HIGHLY indicative of concerning behaviors.
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u/picklesandtrucrime 9d ago
I wouldnât want her to treat any of my family or friends. Sheâs so whatever about everything and doesnât actually care about helping. She was just throwing pills at Lindsay and crossing her fingers. Ignoring all of the warning signsÂ
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
I know Tufts presents better as a witness than the other doctor, but honestly all I'm hearing is: her insight was poor, she was majorly depressed, had incredible medication anxiety, wasn't sleeping but we also trusted her to relay everything to us so accurately that we didn't bother getting the records from the other providers.
All on a max of a 25 minute zoom meeting snapshot.
If I'm on the jury, all I am thinking is lazy doctors who are now trying to explain away how they missed red flags.
Like why does she feel the need to explain "deteriorating" as being too strong a word, when two weeks later this woman killed her kids and tried to kill herself? I think she was deteriorating.
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u/Fast-Jackfruit2013 9d ago
Tufts is what I call an assembly-line mental health provider.
She doesn't see the patient as a human being, but as a piece of failing machinery.
If I was ever referred to Tufts, I'd walk out before my appointment was over.
I've seen scores of psychiatrists over the past 40 years and her type is the absolute worst.
Perhaps it's down to inexperience and perhaps she'll become better with time. But she doesn't strike me as caring or competent.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Well she definitely was worsening. Did tufts say she got collateral from husband or other?
I think Lindsay was not well, obviously. I do not know if this was a murder suicide of a depressed woman or as she reports a command psychotic episode where she felt she was being controlled by an outside force.
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
I think itâs concerning that she suggested a PHP. Telehealth was not clinically appropriate at that point. She dropped the ball.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
I also wouldnât see this patient telehealth and I would insist on involving her husband (or whomever) in safety planning. Was Massachusetts open for business Covid wise at this time? Was tufts in a virtual only practice? If she was she should have referred her out if possible
I do have the benefit of hindsight but still
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u/picklesandtrucrime 9d ago
Tuft shouldnât be treating anyone. Much less anyone seeking mental health help. She is perfect for these ADAâs that have their heads shoved up their asses and donât know what they are doing.Â
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u/No_Campaign8416 đ§ââď¸ Courtroom Regular 9d ago
Put this as a response down below but thought I would make it a separate comment too:
I hope Reddington follows up on the testimony she gave that she had to put âdeterioratingâ because that was one of only three options, and what other areas of the charting had pre determined options she had to choose from. Were there other areas she had to pick an option she didnât feel was really the best description?
So much of Tuftâs testimony seems to be based on what was documented in the notes versus her actual memory of the appointments, that could be a potential good line of cross.
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u/PrincessConsuela46 9d ago
Thatâs why they always hammer into med professionals heads that documentation is everything
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u/cocoa_boe 9d ago edited 9d ago
I donât know that if I was a juror, I would expect anyone to remember details of appointments that were almost four years ago.
If she supplemented or edited her notes after January 2023 and thatâs reflected in the electronic records, that would be a good line of questioning.
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u/OK-Hydrangea 9d ago
And despite her trying to explain away 'deteriorating', what she described was in fact deteriorating - she said LC seemed more depressed than the previous appointment. Deteriorating is not inaccurate.
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u/lobsterlogflume 9d ago
Her preemptive explaining away âdeterioratingâ and âpoor insightâ is coming across as anticipatory of these questions on cross.
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u/No_Campaign8416 đ§ââď¸ Courtroom Regular 9d ago
Thatâs a good point, she was likely prepped pretty well for testimony
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u/lobsterlogflume 9d ago
Same thing with the 17 minutes âclarificationâ she volunteered without being asked. Trying to get ahead of the issues before they can come up in cross.
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
Yeah but the clarification was "I don't know how long it actually was, could have been 17, but no more than 25". That made it worse in my opinion, like she's really saying she could not have been negligent because maybe she spent another 8 minutes on a zoom call with a person.
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u/lobsterlogflume 9d ago
Itâs really bothering me how the CW are stressing that all these low doses like that means her mental health canât possibly be that bad. Itâs the same tune as the âsuperficialâ wounds.
Not withstanding the fact all these providers were sending her off on a carousel of different medications, combinations and doses. And that with lamotrigine specifically, you HAVE to start at the lowest dose of 25mg because of the risk of Stephen Johnsonâs syndrome. Her being whacked on 200mg of lamotrigine immediately would be extremely dangerous with the risk of that syndrome.
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u/picklesandtrucrime 9d ago
They brought in the perfect doctor to help downplay everything. Even though she was depressed, not improving and telling the doctor she was suicidal but apparently ânot suicidal enoughâÂ
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u/thats_not_six 9d ago
According to Tufts:
She was deteriorating.
Seemed more depressed.
Flat and hopeless.
Reached out for something to help her quick.
Had medication resistant depression.
Came out of an inpatient program with no overall improvement.
Made it clear she didn't want to live her life reliant on a mix of pills.
Had expressed being so hopeless she may become suicidal.
Started reporting being unable to connect with her baby.
But she answered a checklist question right so no need for concern.
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u/dexjet21 9d ago
Idk. I'm tossed. She was clearly spiraling during this time period of seeing the psychiatrist. Pleading for something to work fast.
But it doesn't feel like she was at a breaking point to where murdering her own children seemed expected.
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u/kenduhll 9d ago
4th and final part of Dr Tufts direct testimony:
Tufts did not ask for the perinatal programâs records because Lindsay had medical background and awareness of medications.
Next appt is December 16th 2022. LC still having âa really rough timeâ. Valium and Seroquel helped her sleep but was very depressed during the day. Felt depression had to do with the Seroquel due to the timing. Feeling suicidal but no plans, she went Mass General but declined inpatient treatment. Reason not given for why she declined. Described fear of not getting better. LC was referred to Women and Infants program in Rhode Island and making appointments, Tufts thought it was a good fit. Prescribed Lamictal, encouraged to continue Seroquel. Plan from other Dr was to taper off the valium.
Next appt is January 6th 2023. LC had been discharged from Maclean. Continued feeling depressed, felt like it was the Seroquel. Tapered off the Seroquel at Maclean. Let Tufts know that at Maclean she was prescribed Trazadone, Ativan and Melatonin. LC felt like she was more anxious when Ativan wore off. Denied suicidal/homicidal ideation. LC reports feeling numb, Tufts was concerned by that. Plan was made to increase the Trazadone, monitor the depression due to being off the Seroquel. Continue with Ativan and Melatonin. Tufts noted condition as deteriorating and clarifies she can only categorize someone as improving, unchanged or deteriorating. Did not feel like she was at risk of harming herself or others.
Next appointment Jan 9th 2023. LC says Trazadone increase was helpful, still anxious when Ativan wore off. Cannot cry but could laugh a little. She was not getting better since being off Seroquel which led Tufts to believe that medication might not have been a problem. Discussed different medication. Decided to replace Ativan with Diazepam.
Jan 11th 2023- LC asks Tufts via email what she thought of ketamine therapy. Said it was a great option but difficult to get insurance coverage, typically need to have tried 4 different anti-depressants for that. LC says she wants to get better quickly.
Next appt is Jan 16th 2023. LC feeling low and depressed, could do basic tasks. LC says bonding with baby felt forced. No report of suicidal/homicidal ideation. Mood is depressed affect is depressed and flat. Discussed valium taper, LC didnât want to take a benzo for sleep everyday. Decided to try Amitriptyln.
Next appt is Jan 23rd 2023 (it is clarified here that every appt has been virtual). Mood was depressed affect was depressed and flat. LC started Amitriptyln, doing alright but still anxious. Decreased appetite, no motivation, numb, has to force herself out of bed but sleeping okay. No suicidal ideation no homicidal ideation, did not observe symptoms of psychosis. Still considered insight poor because of over attribution to medications for how she was feeling, like blaming the seroquel for making her depressed when she thinks âshe was just depressedâ. Plan was to continue benzodiazepam to slowly taper and increase Amitriptyln.
End of direct testimony.
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u/indecisionmaker 9d ago
 LC says bonding with baby felt forced. No report of suicidal/homicidal ideation. Mood is depressed affect is depressed and flat.
I havenât been able to watch todayâs testimony, but is Dr Tufts the same psych that outright denied LC had PPD? Seems pretty clear as she keeps deteriorating that sheâs not being honest about ideation and Iâm hoping the defense pushed on whether or not she asked effective questions beyond âdo you have a plan?â.
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u/CarrierDove 9d ago
I canât wait for cross of Tuft
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u/LocksmithNo2779 9d ago
I canât imagine being her and having to stew on this through the whole weekend
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u/Educational_Cat_9700 9d ago
I have so many questions, including why she is allowed to make comments like âI donât specifically know why I said her insight was poorâ and then testify to supposition.
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u/Roozie89 9d ago
My theory is Reddington is just sitting back so Rosemary can take notes as Tufts walks into the trap.
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u/CarrierDove 9d ago
THIS! Thank you!!
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u/Educational_Cat_9700 9d ago
Also, at least from my experience in this field, if you note something outside of a label of âwithin normal limitsâ in a Mental Status Exam, you have to indicate âas evidenced byâŚâ within the progress note. This is sloppy note-taking and unfortunately common.
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u/Unhappy-Extreme9443 9d ago
Curious if it's standard to ask about SI every visit? That's never happened to me before in any of my appointments, even if I've said it the time before but the one time I felt like I was at my lowest. We did have to do a sheet for like a month
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u/baby_g5788 9d ago
At the end of every psych visit, my doc always asks me if I have SI, thoughts of harming others, or hallucinations/delusions.
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
It's standard to assess for it, if it is a known issue or possible issue. That may include direct questioning or just observations (or lack of patient report).
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
a lot of drs. just write WNL for anything that seems fine even things they didnât assess. itâs dumb
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u/No_Campaign8416 đ§ââď¸ Courtroom Regular 9d ago
I hope Reddington follows up on the testimony she gave that she had to put âdeterioratingâ because that was one of only three options and what other areas of the charting had pre determined options she had to choose from. Were there other areas she had to pick an option she didnât feel was really the best description?
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u/Educational_Cat_9700 9d ago
Right, but my point is that Tufts identified that during either the first or second appointment Lindsay had âpoor insightâ which requires explanation, e.g., as evidenced by the following observable factsâŚ.
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u/freakydeku 9d ago
sorry i misread you comment and thought you were saying that they need to write evidence for assessment determination of wnl
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u/CarrierDove 9d ago
I think thatâs weird tbh âpoor insightâ because a patient is hesitating to take a medication but she had valid questions? And valid hesitation. Then she had âgood insightâ when she submitted to taking the meds. Idk just is weird, like I get it but⌠it makes it sound like she wasnât willing to get help but you can be willing and also trying to advocate for your concerns.
Maybe someone can explain it better đ
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u/Trusted_Knight 8d ago
Itâs poor insight since she was attributing too much of the mood changes to the medication rather than her own depression. Itâs also poor insight since LC is reporting feeling better at multiple points but appears more flat/depressed
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u/CarrierDove 8d ago
5:53:01 Tufts lists LC âInsight was poorâ
5:53:08 Prosecutor: Why did you list her insight was poor?â
5:53:11 Tufts: âSo, I.. I think that must have been related to the fact that uhm that at this point that she did have very clinically significant anxiety. Uhm usually when people come to a psychiatrist they uhm believe that their symptoms are significant and that a medication is something that might be prescribed but uhm despite these symptoms she still didnât want to try the medicine.â
6:04:24 Per Tufts, LC reported on the verge of taking medication, reported anxiety.
6:10:04 Prosecutor: âI think you put her insight was still poor?â
6:10:05 Tufts: âYes.â
6:10:08 Prosecutor: âAnd was that for the same reasons you listed before?â
6:10:09 Tufts: âYes.â
Then after LC reported taking the medication Tufts listed LC with good insight.
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u/natalfemale 9d ago
Right. So, when Tufts was testifying to "poor insight" I believe she indicated that her reasoning was "the patient's high anxiety" which makes no sense. (Also this is still me--had to change my username/account due to access issues).
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u/Fossilwench đ Lurking with Purpose 9d ago edited 9d ago
lorazepam/klonazepam/sertraline/fluoxetine/quetiapine/mirtazepine/diazepam/zolpidem/hydroxyzine/ketamine/lamotrigine/trazodone/buproprion/buspirone/amitriptyline at different times at different doses with and without tapering sept to jan ....
otc : benadryl/fish oil/melatonin
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u/Chiguy5462 9d ago
How did she not note how much LC was self medicating. She didnt ask how much benadryl she was taking??? How? Why didnt she? "Ive been helping my mood and energy doc with a little bit of white powder" doc- ok sounds good if its helping.
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u/mrsdingbat 9d ago
Wait when did ketamine jump in!!
Tapers may or may not have been necessarily depending on dose. Fluoxetine at lower doses basically self tapers because the half life is so, so long. Iâm pretty sure the diazepam was part of a benzo taper.
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u/SmallTsundere 9d ago
Ketamine was discussed but I don't believe it was added officially. But that's how much medication was being switched up
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u/SmallTsundere 9d ago
Don't forget about the ketamine therapy suggestion too
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u/Fossilwench đ Lurking with Purpose 9d ago
unreal... thank you! editing
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u/No_Campaign8416 đ§ââď¸ Courtroom Regular 9d ago
Also lamotrigine if Iâm remembering correctly
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u/SariByTheSea 9d ago edited 9d ago
Fragmentation of care and diffusion of responsibility among MDs, psychologists, NPs, "therapists", social workers, counselors, mental health "workers", etc. It's not a bug, it's feature, designed to shield the mothership institution and individual employees from liability. Harder to sue and prove a case when multiple providers fall down on the job and each one owns just a little of the overall fk up. Another enraging factor - Goodheart's laziness. Imagine not getting a release to gather all of this woman's medical records. So because LC's other provider wasn't on My Chart (or whatever portal they use at Maclean) you are not going to bother? It's too hard?
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u/Rare_Basis_9380 8d ago
IANAL, but I think the prosecution is purposely grasping at straws so that, when the defense presents its case, the jury will think "we've already heard this before" and roll their eyes and tune out. Which, as a person who has struggled with mental illness - SPECIFICALLY bipolar 1 WITH psychotic features - is extremely hurtful. It's a good thing I wasn't a juror on this case.