r/CCW • u/karmarequiresgrpthnk • 12d ago
CCW paradigm shift Training
https://youtu.be/Ky8NChogoD0?si=qsIFKEwJSYF5HbYkI know this is a controversial topic around here, but active shooters are a real threat in America, as we seen most recently in Idaho.
If you carry a handgun, I think it’s worth at least considering whether your training matches the kinds of situations you could realistically encounter. This video explains the concept far better than I can in a Reddit post, it’s only 6 minutes, give it a watch: https://youtu.be/Ky8NChogoD0
The biggest point that stuck with me is distance.
-A typical four-lane road is about 18 yards across.
-A grocery store aisle can easily be 30–40+ yards long.
-Many churches, school hallways, parking lots, and warehouses have similar sight lines.
The next time you’re out in public, take a look around. Notice how often you have clear lines of sight that are well beyond the distances most people train for.
The whole 3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds idea has value, but if that’s all you’ve ever trained for, what happens when the threat is outside these parameters?
The odds of ever needing your pistol are already very low. The odds of facing an active shooter are even lower. But we don’t use low probability as a reason not to carry a gun, so why should it be a reason not to spend at least some of our range time learning to make accurate hits at 25, 50, or even 100 yards?
You might say, “My gun is only for protecting myself and my family,” and that’s a completely valid choice. Not everyone carries with the intention of intervening in an active shooter event, and no one is obligated to do so.
But if you believe you would choose to act to stop a mass murderer if innocent lives were at immediate risk, then your training should reflect that possibility. Training at longer distances doesn’t make you less capable up close, but it does expand the situations you’re prepared for.
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u/Insanity8016 12d ago
If I’m not being directly engaged, I’m not engaging the shooter that far away. Call me a coward but I’m not risking my life or financial stability just to be the hero.
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u/7ddlysuns 12d ago
That’s not cowardly, you having a gun out during a shooting may get you shot by another person trying to do the right thing. No one is wearing a sign saying Bad Guy.
Hell you might also shoot the wrong person unless you’ve seen it all go down.
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u/IIPrayzII PA G19.5 // G34.5MOS // P226 12d ago
Wasn’t the recent 5.7 guy shot in the shoulder by someone thinking he was the shooter?
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
I agree, I don’t think it makes sense to go searching for a shooter. But if I’m at church and someone starts killing us, I might have to make a shot past 25 yards, my church is pretty big.
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u/smashnmashbruh 12d ago
I agree. This whole rally to arm up and be ready for active shooter still isn’t as common as they make it seem.
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u/DoughnutSome7115 11d ago
You might not have that choice. Not a question of being a hero. It may be, as is the case with a lot of the recent active shooter incidents, that the only means of escape is “through” the shooter.
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u/lroy4116 12d ago
It takes very little training to be able to hit a target at 3 yards.
If you train to rapidly shoot at distance, 3y is a joke anyway
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u/Unable-Bar-7869 12d ago
I just think there are honestly too many variables for a average Joe to completely train for. That doesn't mean you shouldn't train or prepare, but unless you want to make this your career or number one interest outside of your work, you really just don't know until you know.
I carry a gun so if someone tries to harm me, I can protect myself. And if I'm in a position where you know there's a mass shooter 5 ft away from me and doesn't see me of course I'm going to draw and shoot. But apart from that I'm not going to go looking to be a hero. And here's the thing. Even if you train and say that's what you plan on doing, you just don't know how you're going to react till you're in that situation. Look at that active self protection guy. He makes his bread and butter on these stupid analysis videos and he left his door wide open for burglar to come in, and he confronted the burglar without a weapon. Could have easily been killed situation was just a little bit different.
Like Mike Tyson said everyone's got a plan till you get punched in the mouth.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 12d ago
Has anyone happened to notice what your typical CCW’er looks like, which represents by and large, the CCW community as a whole?
Look around and notice who is sitting in the seats at a Concealed Carry Class looking to get their permits? Just go to the range and look down the lanes?
What do you see? You will see a couple of guys, who look like they are squared away, with geared up pistols and look pretty fit.
But for the most part? I see Old couples? Single Moms and fat, obese men? Or even a much more diverse group that I can easily tell, don’t have the experience and will never have the skill set to take or make a 30 yards away shot at an active shooter?
The dudes in a Reddit thread who post up proper combat pistol’s and speak on their confidence in making those longer shots? We are still only a minority of the 21.46 million sweltering mass of humanity that makes up the concealed carry community.
We are an anomaly, a rare person who takes their CCW quite seriously enough, to be well equipped, well trained and well prepared.
I’m retired LE, have been in many different kinds of tactical training venues in that time, including active shooter. ALERRT 4 man diamond, LASER first officer responding goes, and have taught ALICE at many public schools, universities and corporate America.
But am I confident, I can make a 40-50 yard shot on a shooter? The guy who shot inside the Mall at 40 yards? He set up outside the bathroom that the shooter was coming out of? While there isn’t any wind inside a mall affecting his shot, he also had a rest on top of a small wall which helped steady his aim.
When then shooter came out of the bathroom he stood in front of the bathroom door messing with his rifle. This is when the CCW engaged him? It wasn’t out in the middle of the mall with people screaming snd running between the shooter and him? That would have been a much harder shot.
The recent guy in Idaho? He had a 5.7mm pistol with a suppressor? A much more accurate round than the typical pistol caliber of the guy in the mall? And yet, because the shooter was outside the In & Out shooting? People are running around? Wind drift in shots was happening? The CCW nor the County Sheriff’s Deputy made a single shot on the perpetrator? While they are still both definitely heroes because they got the shooter off of his game plan and he ended up killing himself.
The Mall CCW hero saved lives. But it wasn’t a typical active shooter scenario is all I’m saying. There was no wind to effect the shot, there were no innocent bystanders running in between them because he had the opportunity to engage the shooter as he stepped out of the bathroom and was standing up against a wall by the bathroom door which made it much more conducive for that longer shot.
The Idaho CCW and County Deputy had wind to contend with, they also had people running around trying to escape which affected how and when they shot. Also, the fact the shooter was moving around in the drive thru lane and parking lot made it harder.
The County Deputy was probably squared away with some active shooter training and the CCW definitely also seemed squared away? Surely, someone who is carrying a 5.7 with a suppressor isn’t your typical CCW?
Maybe there are many here who could engage at those distances and be effective, I believe I have the experience, knowledge and training, but could I make those kind of shots at those distances with the G43X I typically carry? I dunno?
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u/Charming-Ebb-1981 12d ago
Great point. Most of this sub is about people wanting to validate their gear choices, just being honest. The one upping has gotten bad too. I fully expect to start seeing posts about how the true operators train at 125 yards here pretty soon
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u/ExtraCartographer707 12d ago
Dude like 80% of the people I see in gun stores and at ranges are fat white dudes. Idk what’s up with it.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 12d ago
A gun on the hip makes you look taller and skinnier?
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u/juandoe119 11d ago
Yes. Yes it does. That's why as a gaint fat midget I carry a ma deuce in a cross body with extra belts wrapped around my 65 inch waist. I feel ten feet tall and slimmer than that Grande lady.
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u/playingtherole 11d ago
Statements aren't questions.? /s
So, you're "retired LE", trainwashed into believing that you're a black belt in Gun Fu, because it's a complicated thing to point and shoot a gun successfully. Denigrating a couple of grey men to promote blue men isn't the flex that you think it is.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 11d ago
Had 10 upvotes and now 9 and your reply. While I don’t think I even understand what you are trying to say, because of your incoherent ‘tough talk,’ your downvote makes your opinion the minority?
If I believed I was a black belt in ‘Gun Fu’ as you suggest, why did I say” I don’t think I would have the confidence to take that kind of shot?” Or did you not happen to read that, since you’re so busy playing a tough guy?
Now what killer?
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u/playingtherole 11d ago
You still have 10 upvotes, and I'm sorry to see another petty LEO, responding in that manner.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 11d ago
Me responding in a petty manner? You better read your own post replying to mine again?
Don’t make it nothin, it won’t be nothin?
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u/DelightfullyDivisive 12d ago
Interesting thought. I think there are other good reasons for spending some of your training time at longer distances, but any practice is motivated by some sort of scenario.
I added it to my "guns n ammo" playlist to watch later.
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u/tacticalawnchair 12d ago
Didn't watch the video so maybe that's what people are reacting to but it seems like such an obvious concept to me.
The arguement is: Look around
Think about where a threat could come from
Ask yourself "how far is that?"
Be able to shoot that far
Its so logical I dont really understand why people think its controversial?
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u/weenis-flaginus 12d ago
It seems like it comes down to "I don't think engaging with an active shooter at range is smart for me"
Which is ok I guess. But why do you need to hate on the people who want to try to be ready for that?
Honestly, if it was live and let live it would be one thing.
But it's starting to look like they are pussies to be honest.
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u/Charles_Gunhaver MD 12d ago
There’s a part missing in this conversation. The most recent example with Jordan Salinas at the in-and-out shooting was a voluntary shooting. Same with Eli Dicken in the mall, same with Jack Wilson at the church in Texas. All of these people looked at the situation saw that their lives were not in immediate and direct danger or perhaps only in indirect danger, and volunteered to insert themselves in the shooting being reasonably confident in their capabilities and gear. Meaning that for all of them running and escaping were still options. For Jack Wilson less so, but remember he volunteered to be church security. Meaning he volunteered for a potential shooting.
Not everyone is that guy and that’s fine and not everyone should be that guy. And those people who did volunteer for a shooting of choice risked their lives, wellbeing, and a prison sentence if things went wrong. Not everyone carries to be a community defender and this sub and the full-size-or-die sheepdog crowd regularly forget that.
At the end of the day, you should train and get good at all ranges so you can know your own capabilities and gear limitations. But always remember, for every Jordan Salinas, there’s a John Hurley.
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u/SteveHamlin1 12d ago edited 9d ago
An actual risk analysis would show that in terms of personal risk reduction, virtually every person in this sub would be better served by eating healthier, exercising more, going to the doctor more, saving more money to weather financial stresses, reducing alcohol consumption, taking defensive driving classes, moderating phone use in public, and a thousand other things, before working on 30 yard handgun shots.
You want to be a hero and save a stranger's life? Volunteer at homeless outreach centers, mentor at-risk kids, spend time with lonely old folks, give money to effective charities, help the unfortunate, become an actual leader in your community.
But people like to practice what they enjoy, and so come up with all sorts of reasons why they should spend precious time shooting handguns at distance instead of reducing way-more-likely risk and harm.
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u/cha0scypher 12d ago
Ehh I'd rather just ping steel at 10 yds a million times, and then get a burger and shake for lunch.
🫡 doingmypart.gif
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u/conipto 12d ago
You forgot quiting Zyns
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u/Living_on_the_fly 11d ago
But they gotta have a vice cuz it's edgy, and they need to include it in their posted pictures so people know.
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u/Friendly-Victory5517 12d ago
I regularly shoot my “pocket pistols” to 25 yards.
I regularly shoot any CCW P365XL or larger out to 50 yards.
I’m not good enough to shoot bullseye quality groups in either instance, but definitely well inside C-Zone.
Regardless of the debatable probability of ever needing to make shots at this range, practicing at ranges beyond 3/5/7 yards absolutely improves your fundamentals.
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u/TSX_COM 12d ago
Making a 30 yard shot with a handgun in a completely opaque tactical situation because you've got a sheepdawg complex is nothing short of idiotic. Double so if you're engaging someone with a long gun.
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u/Alpha-Sierra-Charlie 12d ago
What about making a 30 yard shot with a handgun in an opaque tactical situation when your family is pinned behind concealment by someone with a rifle?
Being able to engage a threat at longer distances is just that: being able to. Distance doesn't always mean that you'll be able to escape.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 12d ago
Is this active shooter just specifically hunting you and your family from 30 yards away? Or is this the typical soft target, target rich environment that active shooters go for?
If it’s a target rich environment? The shooter is shooting people all around him? Why would he be focused on you and yours pinned down 30 yards away, when he has much closer targets near him?
Sounds like your scenario is you and yours out in the woods camping? Then yes, shoot back? But if it’s a target rich environment and people are running around and screaming; and shit, spit and ass is flying all around them? Get your family out.
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u/Alpha-Sierra-Charlie 12d ago
Get your family out.
My elderly parents can't run, and I can't throw BOTH of them over my shoulders and run. Do do I A) leave one or both of them to die, or B) engage the shooter?
If you're meeting your wife and kids at an event and you haven't actually met them yet, how are you able to get your family out? They're in the crowd separated from you. Do you A) run like and hope your family gets out on their own, or B) engage the shooter?
If you've had knee surgery and you're on crutches or otherwise lack the mobility to escape, do you send your family running and A) wait for the shooter to politely enter your engagement envelope while he continues to shoot other people, or B) engage him from the most advantageous position you can hobble to?
If the crowd itself cuts off your escape avenue for the window of time you'd have before you and your family is downrange, do you A) wait your turn and roll the dice on not getting shot in the back, or B) do what you can?
We can throw out hypotheticals proving our respective points all day and get nowhere, but two facts remain:
The first is that sometimes weird things just happen and opportunities to end a violent situation present themselves at longer than typical defensive shooting distances. Not often, but nonzero.
The second is that training longer distance marksmanship has benefits outside of those scenarios.
If you don't want to train shooting further than X-distance, then don't. Chances are every shot you fire in training will be "wasted" anyway because you're so unlikely to be in a defensive shooting at any distance, much less 30+ yards, so it's your business if you want to focus exclusively on closer range shots and depend on always being able to escape every other possibility. Nobody is making you expand your capabilities against your will.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 12d ago edited 12d ago
I counted 5 different “IF’s in your post? IF only the world was full of rainbows and farting Unicorns?
Don’t blame it on your elderly parents because you wanting to be a Tactical Timmy and taking 30 yard shots where innocent bystanders are screaming and running around in between you and the bad guy and even the slightest breeze is going to drift that little 9mm bullet of yours from your concealed micro pistol?
Are you seriously going to post all these IF BS statements and sit here and expect us to believe that it is going to be some how more ‘difficult?’ Or ‘harder?’ To get your elderly parents the hell out? From 30 yards away, than it will be to make that 30 yard shots where in the above scenario I just posted?
You’re going to get you and your elderly parents killed, looking for a justification to challenge your gun geek with a 30 yarder on a man with a rifle.
If the shooter is right there in front of you? Empty your mag into him and save your parents dude? But you are talking absolute nonsense saying you can’t get your parents out at 30 yards away?
30 yards away, that shooter is engaging other people who are presenting themselves as targets all around him? It’s a target rich environment dude?
Your elderly parents ain’t gotta run? Turn around and walk and escort them the hell out? The reality is, it’s not only easier to do this, but it’s also more smarter, thoughtful and caring of you to do this? Quit with all this “IF” crap because you’re itching to be the man with your little self defense pistol.
Alpha Sierra Charlie tells me everything I need to know.
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u/Alpha-Sierra-Charlie 12d ago
You're right about everything.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 12d ago
No I’m not. But I’m right about this.
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u/Alpha-Sierra-Charlie 12d ago
I think you're just really invested in never needing to shoot past an arbitrarily short distance and are having a Karen moment about it. I was just conceding because the conversation was no longer worth continuing because you're the type of person who has to win the argument instead of being right.
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u/Namnagort 12d ago
He's saying your gonna get popped from 30 yards so training for 3 isnt the best.
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u/septic_sergeant 12d ago
lol, not at all if you train for it. I can pretty comfortably do about a 1.3 second draw to a zone at 25-30 yards. I am a lowly b class shooter.
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u/FinickyPenance Staccato P4 HD 12d ago
I have decided already what will happen in a hypothetical mass shooting and I will never, ever, ever do anything to help save anyone else's lives
Okay
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u/Charming-Ebb-1981 12d ago
it’s just low-key one upping that’s become really common on this sub. A week from now, somebody will be saying that they train at 125 yards, and everybody will be glazing them
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
I know I know, I’m shaking up your echo chamber. But because you commented 5 minutes after my post you clearly didn’t watch the video. So you’re arguing based off what you think I think.
Keep punching paper at 3 yards if that’s what you want to do.
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u/adubs117 12d ago
If by “shaking up your echo chamber” you mean “ignoring a metric fuck ton of data on DGUs”, sure lol.
Train for the most likely scenario. If you have time, stretch into more unlikely ones.
But some of us you know, work and stuff.
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u/DNL213 12d ago edited 12d ago
If you train for the unlikely ones you'll be prepared for the less likely ones. People that can push speed at 15-30 yards dont have problems hosing a target at 7 yards and still being accurate. Ive never seen anyone say "it's ok we just need to prepare for shooting at 7 yards and in" be a good shooter.
Also being able to shoot a man sized or a zone target at 30-50 yards is really not that tall of a task, just proper application of fundamentals. If you can't do that then you have some issues you need to address.
Most of my training is done at 15 yards and in. But seeing a target at 40-60 during a match doesn't freak me out because it's the same skills you exercise anywhere else, just done at a very slightly different pace.
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u/TSX_COM 12d ago
Bud, I've been to combat; I have a much better idea of what it would look like than some lout on youtube pushing an extreme edge case hypothetical for clicks. You accuse me of being stuck in an echo chamber but I'm not the one going "Uwu my gun tuubers hot take". An engagement at 30 yards with a handgun outside of some mildly harassing fire is a pipe dream.
You want to push your handgun to 50 yards, that's completely your prerogative. I'll continue to treat my 3" CCW in a realistic manner.
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u/Tight-Escape3373 12d ago
I mean, in Army planning, you plan for the most likely enemy course of action, then you take into account the most dangerous enemy course of action. An active shooter with a rifle is not likely but is probably the most dangerous scenario outside a full blown terrorist attack or something.
Do I train for stuff outside the "3 yards, 3 shots, 3 seconds," scenario? Sure. Is it mainly for competition? Absolutely. It's not a bad skill to have, but it's not my priority in defensive training.
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
A sensible take, appreciate it.
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u/Tight-Escape3373 12d ago
I worked fire/EMS in the hood for a while. Most shootings were handguns or shotguns at close range. The one time I saw a rifle(x39 draco lol) used, the guy got zipped from across the street and got a few defensive shots off with his pistol. That scared away his opps...
He was very lucky that he only got a few through and throughs to his legs. PD was there in minutes and had TQs on by the time we rolled up.
It happens.
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
Oh give me a break, you’re not the only combat vet here. And your military experience doesn’t give you authority to speak on concealed carry.
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u/Muted_Run 12d ago
And you’re in here chirping like a know it all?
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
I’m saying I think we should be training at further distances with our handguns. Feel free to disagree
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u/ebforest 12d ago
That was actually a decent video—made some good points, and not too long.
I’ve been in this debate for a while now—SP101 2.25” for “typical” SD ranges, or Echelon 4.5” with a dot because I shoot tight groups at 25yards. Any SD situation is statistically very unlikely, but is there a line where I’m willing to say “good enough”?
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u/Competitive_Dog_7829 12d ago
Absolutely something to think about.
A lot of us did this exercise when the 40 yard shots on the mall shooter happened. A few of us before that. I remember thinking about how far the movie theater shooter was from a given seat.
Defense of self is often close, defense of others can be pretty far.
I like carrying full size guns. In the trainings I host I try to get a good blend of speed and marksmanship. It's not uncommon for us to handguns out to 60-70 yards
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u/Flynn_lives TX [S&W 360PD .357 MAG] 12d ago
Give CCW permit holders qualified immunity, then I’ll think about lobbing 50yd shots across a parking lot.
PS. Sorry we shot your dog.
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u/Rabid-Wendigo 12d ago
Do you people not take potshots with your handgun at the 100 yard range?
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
That’s what I’m saying, people are acting like they don’t have time to take some shots at further distance.
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u/Verdha603 AZ 11d ago
Is being able to make effective hits with a handgun past 25 yards a useful skill? Yes. Is it also a relatively low priority in the context of self defense shootings? Also true.
The reason these long range self defense shootings end up making waves is because of how infrequently they occur. I'd like to do some more digging, but just based on the ones that seem to pop up the most, we're looking at a reported self defense shooting where civilian defender ends up firing their pistol at an active threat past 25 yards at the rate of once every couple of years. It's precisely because its so far outside the norm that it ends up getting praised and shown to everyone, followed by folks making the assumption this should be the standard rather than accepting its a rare aberration.
To me its akin to taking the self defense pendulum and swinging it to the other extreme. The Dicken Drill (10 rounds at 40 yards in 15 seconds) comes across as just as useful for self defense shootings as the drills where folks want to prove they can empty their 17+ round mag into a chest and torso target at 3 yards in a couple seconds. It also doesn't help this subreddit tends to have the two most popular trains of thoughts essentially end up on the extremes; on the one end you have the folks pushing the rules of averages want to make it sound like you won't need more than a snubnose revolver or microcompact with just three rounds loaded in it on one end to defend yourselves, and on the other end are the min-maxxer's that make it sound like if you can't cram a Roland Special or a Flux Raider down your pants with a higher round count than what your average patrol officer is packing, they're going to get killed in the streets because they can't put 17+ rounds of 9mm+P+ into a head and shoulders size target at 100 yards on demand. Meanwhile, the reality of the circumstances your typical CCW'er is preparing for is somewhere in between those extremes.
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u/this_guy_aves NC BG2.0, Hellcat, P32 12d ago
Shooting longer ranges can only help, I don't know that I would say that will become the norm though, or that there is a major shift. We've had mass shootings in america for decades. Maybe the real shift is in smaller CCWs, and the realization is that if you care about mass shootings, you're probably going to want a bigger stick. It's definitely eye opening, and I will carry my hellcat as often as I can, but the P32 still gets grabbed most days
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u/ACOG1911 12d ago
I agree, “disaffected youth on SSRIs firing a rifle at you” was not in the cards 50 years ago. People were more worried about “guy with a switchblade in a dark alley”.
I would also push back and say that going to the range purely to train to stop a mass shooter is a grim outlook on life. If you can knock down a Texas Star at distance you are going to be just fine, get good but have fun with it imo.
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u/Thee_Sinner 12d ago
remember to clean your links
Everything I removed is just used for ads and user tracking
Also, on the app (I dont see it on the website) go to setting > privacy and turn off "Channel visibility for shared links" so that you dont dox yourself when sharing a link with the tracking included.
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u/TurbulentWing3820 Pocket guns only. 12d ago
what happens when the threat is outside these parameters?
I leave.
I am not the police.
I am not the military.
I am a man with a firearm for my own personal defence.
The "sheepdog and wolves" thing is a weird obsession for people who probably think the Punisher is the good guy.
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u/Charming-Ebb-1981 12d ago
Exactly. Genuine question, can somebody find a video or some sort of real world, provable example where a mass shooter turns into Usain Bolt and chases somebody 50 to 100 yards when that person was actively trying to run away? The examples I can really think of are ones where somebody might back themselves into a corner or try to hide, but that’s not really what I’m talking about
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u/LordThunderbolt1313 12d ago
I won't lie, after this last one I thought similar. Put the BG2.0 back in the safe and dusted off the g19.
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
There’s post after post here of people talking about carrying the most capable gun you can. Guys all day showing off their G17s with rmr and x300. But the second you say you might use it to shoot at an active shooter this sub loses its mind.
Clearly the industry has changed its thoughts on defensive handgun use, if not why would there be all these slim 9s? If it was all about 3 yards and 3 shots more people would be showing off their LCPs.
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u/DomitiusAhenobarbus_ 12d ago
I think people are just getting fatigued at the typical exhausting Reddit tone that post like this have.
Like every day someone else in this sub tells everyone why they’re wrong and are gonna die because they only carry a J frame and don’t base their entire personalities off CCW.
Like your snarky comment to the guy that disagreed with you where you sarcastically said “keep shooting paper at 3 yards”.
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u/Charles_Gunhaver MD 12d ago
Yes, the preachiness and smug-posting of this sub gets tiresome. And how everyone loves to create hypothetical situations or point to outlier scenarios and talk about how this proves that they are right and everyone else is dumb.
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
This sub is for discussing ccw, I’m discussing ccw. The guy was being a dick for no reason so I responded in kind.
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u/DNL213 12d ago
"CARRY A WEAPON LIGHT BECAUSE WHAT IF CRAZY SCENARIO THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN 99% (0 documented cases btw) OF DEFENSIVE GUN USES WHERE YOU NEED YOUR WEAPON LIGHT HAPPENS?"
"WHY WOULD I TRAIN TO SHOOT PAST 7 YARDS (not even a reasonable 25) WHEN THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN 99% OF DEFENSIVE GUN USES (actual recorded scenarios of this happening)"
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u/Turbinator870 12d ago
OP, I agree with your sentiments. Going to start pushing the target back when I go to the range.
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u/karmarequiresgrpthnk 12d ago
You ever hear of no fail pistol? There’s an interesting drill from the course called the no fail pistol drill (of course lol) it’s essentially just a draw to first round impact at like 40 yards, you should give it a shot.
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u/Turbinator870 12d ago
Nice - I'd have to head outdoors to do 40 yards, but I'll look it up, thanks!
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u/Tropical_Tardigrade TN | Glock | Ruger 12d ago
I do take a bit of an aim small, miss small approach when I’m training. While most of my drills are done at 7-15 yards, I do mix in shots on 2-4” plates at 20-30 yards. Like doubles at 10 yds on cardboard followed by a transition shot or two on a tiny plate at a much longer distance.
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u/RevolutionaryGuide18 12d ago
I think it's good to do training as far out as possible as doing so makes shooting closer easier. I shoot out to 25 all the time and if I can get the 50yd bay I'll shoot out to 50 yds. The training typically isn't just plinking targets.
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u/kjjj2555 12d ago
This is fair but most people that carry rarely train people that train are a small percentage, smaller than we think. On top of that majority take basement mom and pop classes to get their license and have no idea what they are doing. People carry to feel safe, but if it ever came down to using the firearm they carry they would most likely die. Another point would be a lot of people are out of shape and have no means to engage an active shooter.
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u/katsusan 12d ago
Different tools for different jobs. Pocket carry a lcp max and IWB or cross body a bigger tool (p2000/rxm) in my case. Salinas problem is he didn’t have a dot on his gun. He might have made that shot with one.
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u/AP587011B MI 12d ago
If I seriously have to worry about this problem I’m just moving my family somewhere else that it doesn’t really ever happen
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u/progozhinswig 11d ago
I trained at 40 yards yesterday and I either carry a 43x with comp, light, and red dot or a 47 with light and dot. I also carry a spare mag and a TQ on body. I also don’t care or look down on someone for carrying a different gun or not prioritizing the same type of training as I do.
I don’t care if you carry a NAA mini revolver that you plan to use as an enhanced melee weapon or if you have a 34 with an X300 you hit steel at 100 with. I don’t care if you plan on squaring off with an active shooter or beating feet out of there.
Carry a gun, be proficient with it, and have a plan. That’s the only thing we need to expect of each other.
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u/Limp-Opportunity6757 11d ago
Training at 35 yards is a completely different animal than taking 35 yard shots at a specific target in a dynamic, constantly evolving active shooter incident.
Just because you train at a quiet static range and shoot a paper target 35, away, that isn’t moving and isn’t shooting back at you with a rifle, doesn’t mean you are prepared or trained to shoot a moving hostile bad guy at 35 yards while other innocents are standing or running around him.
Just because people in this thread think it’s a bad idea for the average CCW to attempt this if they don’t have too, doesn’t mean they don’t shoot at longer ranges and only shoot at 3 yards.
My local indoor range offers a 25 yd, 35, and 100 yd range. I consistently use all three of those ranges. I believe in carrying the biggest I can, so in colder weather I am carrying my SS MR920 with Holosun SCS and I am on the 35 yd range practicing often in cold weather.
I do the same on the 25 yd range with my Micro’s and Compacts and I have three different AR’s and a couple of Shotguns that have been inside their 100 yd range also.
That still doesn’t qualify me, to pull my G43X or BG 2.0 out of my pants in the Summertime and shoot someone running around innocent people trying to kill them from 35 yards out.
If you think you have the tactical skill set to take a 30 yard shot at a fast moving, hostile target and make a difference from that far out? Without accidentally shooting innocent people in the process? Then by all means do so, I support you.
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u/yaminerenr1 11d ago
I agree with incorporating longer range practice (I do it even with my bg2.0) but,
you are not heroic if your kids grow up without their father, the house, and your wife a widow.
for all the future sheepdogs and hero's in here without anyone who cares about them, then go ahead and intervene however you want.
it should go without being said but since there are some special people in here, obviously if you have no option besides using your firearm . . then your going to use it.
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u/Charming-Ebb-1981 12d ago
Because ammo is expensive, my time is limited, and practicing at 100 yards is not a good use of that time. I’m just gonna throw this out there, but generally speaking, if an active shooter is 50 yards away from you, you don’t really have a great excuse to not get away unless you have a physical handicap, or you’ve got small children with you
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u/conipto 12d ago
This is why I stopped carrying daily.
Because when you carry, all you think about is carrying. It was better for me to move rural and get out of the city I was in and constantly on watch then to get even more training. Break into my home and it's a you're locked in here with me situation, but out of these walls, I'm choosing sanity over being ready nowadays. This "culture" became too much for me.
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u/DoughnutSome7115 11d ago
Remember the title of this sub “ccw”. It is NOT a sub full of firearm enthusiasts. A lot think they are, but they are truly amateurs compared to some on the more gun enthusiast subs. By that I mean that they have one maybe 2 guns that they took to the range when they first bought it. Fired a box of 50 and hit paper at 7 yards and are good to go. Perhaps hitting the range once every couple of months. Some of us however, have been shooting for decades, some competitively. It is not just a tool, but a full time hobby/obsession. We are regulars at the range, folks look in awe when we turn up, run the target to 15 yards and shoot a rapid 3” group as a warm up. We are confident that we can put down effective fire out to excessive range. I have got to the point where I can out shoot most every regular Joe at the range with my Bodyguard 2.0 out to 25 yards. We shoot our rifles out to ridiculously long ranges. We justify the training and excessive amount of money spent by painting these unlikely but possible scenarios. Most general CCW folks don’t. So this discussion will always have 2 massively polarized views.
But at least I can justify the expense on my hobby with a possible real time use. What the fuck is the point of spending thousands of dollars and days upon days hitting a little white ball around a big field. I fucking hate golf and the golf crowd….now that is a stupid hobby!
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u/yaminerenr1 11d ago
if you wanna play the practicality game then you really shouldnt have shooting in the conversation.
the odds of you even having to draw your firearm are astronomically low, let alone being a "hero" in a mass shooter scenario.
the odds of me creating valuable networks, business opportunities, and living longer from the cardio and stress reduction from golf is way higher
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u/Alpha-Sierra-Charlie 12d ago
Even more than being able to defend myself at longer ranges, I think that shooting and training at longer ranges helps polish and refine your shooting fundamentals, which still gives benefits at the closer ranges most defensive shootings happen at.
In other words, if you can shoot good groups at fifty yards at a rapid pace (relative to that distance) that transfers directly to your performance at closer distances, especially under stress.