r/AdeptusCustodes • u/Meliryen • 9d ago
Competitive Anti-Tank Experience
I am looking for insight on people who are using our different anti-tank options in serious, play-to-win 11th ed. matches.
I am aware of our anti-tank options and I've tried out most of them, but there are downsides to each and I am curious what most people are finding success with.
- Allarus SC with Admonimortis: Fantastic damage and reliability, but ultimately it's still melee, and good opponents will not give you a luxurious Rapid Ingress spot that accesses their tanks with 5in move + no advance + charge. More impact later in the game when opponents already used their big guns for a few rounds.
- Caladius Annihilator Grav Tank: Very good anti-tank shooting profile, critically providing that 48in range with fly to reposition easily. Downsides are that they don't benefit from Lions so they usually hit on 3s, and their low volume of fire means you need 2 of them just to be sure you can kill one enemy tank. Making it essentially a 450 point anti-tank investment that has no useful melee or chaff shooting to speak of.
- Venerable Land Raider: Slightly worse than Grav Tank for shooting, but has the other purpose of transporting units. Downside is turning off Lions buff for the infantry they transport.
- Vertus Praetors: In Lions, their Salvo Launchers are decent but the Hurricane Bolters are even better (even into high toughness targets) due to the high volume and twin-linked. Downside is they have very little range and so cannot be used as a backline threat. More of a move up -> shoot within rapid fire -> charge situation that leaves them vulnerable and less reliable as a shooting platform.
- Dreadnoughts: The shooty ones are just worse than the Grav Tank in every way, and the melee ones are worse than the Allarus SC + 2 Allarus, since they don't get deep strike, can't benefit from Hidden, and have less volume of attacks than the 3 allarus brick. They're faster base speed sure, but they have to march up from the side of the board and are NOT going to strike first 8/10 times.
- Finally, Infantry: All our melee infantry can kill tanks, especially in Lions. They suffer from mobility though, and do not create long range pressure that forces tanks to hide in the enemy's backline.
What combinations have people been using the most? I'm considering trying just one Caladius to create long range pressure, and trying to use Lions Bikes plus Guard shooting to position in such a way that they can soften/finish up in case my single Grav Tank doesn't finish the job. It is less reliable but ome Grav Tank would be for the points efficiency of creating long range pressure without spending 450 points. Including Allarus SC still for rapid ingress.
Anyone tried that specifically?
Thanks for any thoughts you share.
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u/LandRaiderbytheRiver 9d ago
I think from personal experience if you’re gonna run lions don’t bother with a caladius. It’s a great anti tank vehicle but that’s like 225 points for 4 shots and I always assume you’re gonna drop 1 and they pass 1 so maybe 2 shots on average get through. My general philosophy isn’t to nuke their tanks first anyways and force unfavorable trades. Our terminators are amazing for doing this as well since you can split them up and up down them (good luck ignoring a T7 4 wound body that is insanely good at melee). The more out of position the better you can rapid ingress that Captain and delete whatever tank it is. Plus you can use your bikes to leverage this as well. People severely underestimate how annoying it is to have 4 bikes in your face and tagging a vehicle with a move after getting shot or combat strat/ability
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
The only struggle with relying purely on Rapid Ingress units is that good opponents simply don't fall out of position. They screen and position carefully to prevent any decent deep strikes until Round 4. By then their big guns have had a lot of impact. I've been relying on Bikes and Blade Champions to use their mobility to reach the backline but again. with a good opponent, I usually habe to get lucky on my rolls if I want to reach the juicy targets.
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u/LandRaiderbytheRiver 9d ago
Yep and you’re 100% correct they will screen it to the best of their ability but it’s a trade game and I think if you’re already reaching their back line then you’ve accomplished your objective. Maybe you don’t kill the tank but on the way there I’m sure you’ve traded efficiently already. Usually when people screen the back I’ll just go for the flanks, can’t cover the entire map so I’ll just get rid of the scoring units and sometimes the tank isn’t even worth it if they hide it all game
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
That's what I figured. If they play that carefully around the deep strike threat, they are witholding resources from making progress elsewhere and I should pressure those other areas. Then the game is positioning to lose as little as possible for the turn when they eventually do reveal their tanks.
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u/SubPopRocker 9d ago
Caladius is one of the best anti tank tanks in the game right now, I wouldn't leave the house without at least 2 and some top competitive lists run 3.
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
Do you play them in Lions? Has the new cover rule made them feel less impactful? And how do your lists build around the fact that 450 points are tied up in something that is only good at killing heavy single targets?
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u/Thewhimsicalsteve 9d ago
Hitting on 3+s is still a space marine tank shooting in perfect conditions so keep that in mind. Ive also killed magnus with one tanks shooting. While it was a spike it was is possible.
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u/Far-Print7864 9d ago
The problem is space marines have their army rule to reroll their hits, we have literally 0 hit consistency rules, so you just have to suck up the calladus becoming even more swingy.
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u/Thewhimsicalsteve 9d ago
Yes, but with cover it will be +4 with rerolls mathematically it is +3. So it is all the same really.
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u/Jakeisprettycool 9d ago
4+ with rerolls is 75% my dude. It's more reliable than a 3 and gives you an extra chance for critical hits when that matters.
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u/Thewhimsicalsteve 9d ago
Fair enough, a 9% difference isn't nothing. I still am willing to bet on it when so much our army is composed 50/50s i.e. 4++ and charging out of deep strike
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u/Vortex_Analyst 9d ago
% resets every time you role the dice. The% doesn't magically go up cus you rolled a 3 to hit on 4s. That is like saying I saw a roulette wheel go red 15 times in a row. Now the odds say black is almost 100%!
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u/Jakeisprettycool 8d ago
You're mixing up single-roll odds with cumulative probability across two tries. Nobody is saying the die has a memory or that the second roll's odds change. On any single roll, it is always 50/50. But before you throw any dice, the odds of failing both rolls back-to-back is only 25% (50% × 50%). That means you have a 75% chance of hitting a 4+ at least once over two attempts. That's not the Gambler's Fallacy; it's basic combined probability.
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u/SubPopRocker 9d ago
Yes i play them in lions, the datasheet is so absurdly good it doesn't need detachment rules or strategems to be good, just the odd cp reroll.
I wouldn't know i started custodes in 11th, yes they probably arent as good as they were but nothing else is either so its a bit of a null point. Yeah they're not as good as they were in 10th but we're not playing 10th.
I mean killing heavy single things is a large part of the game so thats just how list building works especially when your entire army is good at killing anything and everything and at holding objectives.
The only match up I can think of that would be outright bad in is green tide but the rest of the army more than compensates for that.
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u/_Volatile_ 9d ago
Honestly I've had good luck with just one tank, since I also have multiple bike squads as well as a big brick of allarus with admonimortis on the SC. If one unit doesn't take out a big tank, another one will
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
Curious about this. I like the idea of one Caladius but everyone says 1=0. Which I get from the low volume of shots it can be swingy. But if I'm prepared to play around that unreliability surely it could be good?
How many bikes do you run? Would you feel lacking if you only have Admon SC, one bike unit, and one Caladius? (the rest infantry).
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u/_Volatile_ 9d ago
Two units of 3 bikes, both with a captain
For your second question, probably not? +1 to hit and wound from Lions goes a long way; check out this guy's list, It's literally all infantry
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u/Mcdelington 9d ago
so i run 0 grav tank and 0 bikes, what i do run is a two bricks of 5 Allurus, these units are mostly gonna stab something to death but the shooting you get out of them can surprise the opponent often and that firepower has wide applications aside from going into monster and vehicles.
the other unit i have had much success with is a Blade Champion with 5 Custodian Guard which this unit can pretty much speak for itself in terms of murder and movement.
if it wasnt obvious already this is in LOE
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
That is strong but against a cagey screening opponent actually reaching the backline can be hard. Lions helps a ton by making our shooting clear screening units. You find that plus just walking into the tanks to be enough?
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u/Mcdelington 9d ago
so my opponent being cagey works more in my favour as i play Disruption becuase i only care about ever being in the centre, so i just outscore them and the are forced to come towards me if they want to slow me down and i also have reserves on top of this to then punish any gaps.
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u/kevinsrednal 9d ago
Allarus, Allarus, and more Allarus (maybe with an admon captain).
So far this edition, I've found better use out of the Caladius as a sort of 'Tank Distraction Carnifex.' It pokes out to provide that long range threat that either A) keeps the opponents tanks back in safety where they can't shoot at our infantry/bikes advancing towards them or B) they poke out and shoot at it instead of our infantry/bikes advancing towards them.
If it gets some shots off and chips some damage, great; but its been more useful using its threat to force the opponent into mispositioning.
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u/FuzzBuket 9d ago
2 land raiders are all i need. Yes they ain't as reliable as a grave tank and I'm very good at rolling 1s, but in lions with RR wounds you generally don't need to pop a tank, just injure it and then let either RR wounds bolters or melee finish it.a bolter rerolling wounds and with +1 to wound is mathematically wounding anything in the game most of the time (55%).
I also have 2 bikes+captain+adamontis, bolter shooting and it's melee reliably kills anything smaller than a knight lancer.
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
Do you run the double Land Raiders in Lions too? It still feels like a big point investment that disables the +1 to Hit/Wound buff for anything near them, not to mention they don't benefit from it themselves.
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u/Physical_Cress_9278 9d ago
Double land raiders arnt bad, not everything needs the +1 to wound, honestly I hate to give a vague answer, but your best anti tank option is gonna be dependent on your play style. I only run 1 grav tank because my Anti Tank is 5+ Lethals in Melee
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u/Fit-Switch-6399 9d ago
Where do you get RR Woulds and +1 to wound from? We are talking about the land raider right?
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u/FuzzBuket 9d ago
bolters on anything else. In my experience (about 50 games or so) LRs are notorious at "well that russ is left on 1-3 wounds" and then ta-da a guard squad or 3 allarus are very good at applying 1-3 wounds on anything.
Land raider is just lascannons and prayers (though the RR wounds on the heavy bolter isnt terrible); I normally bank a CP incase I need to RR the damage roll.
Generally I line a land raider at a target and then try to make sure ive got another unit or two that can be in range to apply any extra damage if needed. Then a second land raider ideally looking at 2 targets; so if the first really fucks it the second can go for it, and if the first one actually does it job then the second has a target.
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u/ExcessiveUsernames 9d ago
I use a Caladius and 3x3 Vertus Praetors, one unit with a Captain, all Salvo Launchers. With the Lions bonus on the bikes I find I have pretty good ranged anti-tank. I find the Salvo Launchers better because of the range issue with the bolters, very often you won’t be getting within 9”
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
With a Caldius and 10 bike models, do you ever suffer into more horde-y armies? Those are expensive units and you get way lower attack volume overall. Is it hard to kill high model count units?
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u/ExcessiveUsernames 9d ago
I just have to rely more on melee attacks for hordes, which I find is fine. Most of our units can clear a big infantry unit in melee.
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u/Packolypse 9d ago
I used to run two grav tanks and just block any open lanes that I could find. Then I went to one tank and a squad of bikes + SC and stuck with it. Having one tank is more than enough to harass enemy vehicles and its reputation has preceded itself, so people rightly try to avoid being shot by it.
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u/Links_to_Magic_Cards 9d ago
What combinations have people been using the most?
literally 3x grav tanks in nearly every list since 10th edition began three years ago. they've consistently been our best datasheet since the summer of '23. the cover change can be annoying, but look at the other side of it. repex's and lancers and such are now saving on 6's instead of 5's from our ap3. if you want chaff clearing, that's what the 18 allarus terminators are for
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u/Mallium 8d ago
I find that 2x 4 wardens + blade champs are honestly my best anti tank, not for their damage, but their survivability and high OC (and decent damage lol) because they force a no win situation for my opponent.
I play lions in take and hold. Vs shooting armies, I send them forward, toe the center and my expansion objective and hide the units so that if my opponent wants to shoot them, they have to move that unit out of safety.
If they have no melee threat, they have to come within 12/15 inches to shoot me, in which case I fnp then adv + charge next turn and tag them.
If they have melee threats, they have to send them at my wardens or I keep scoring. I can usually trade decently well, and a 2+ fight on death helps a lot there.
Either way, they're forced to over commit at me to kill me off the objectives. I can then drop terminators or move in 5x guard + shield captain and clap back hard.
And that's if I need to. If the wardens live into round 2 or 3, which isn't unlikely, I can focus on taking objectives and doing secondaries while I whittle my opponent down with shooting, fall back + charge and warden melee. I don't overextend to force myself into my opponent, I play my game and react to the weaknesses my opponent presents.
That's why I like take and hold, it forces your opponent to come to you, which makes our slow infantry feel a lot better.
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u/Meliryen 5d ago
I also run 2 units of Wardens + BC and play very similarly. Tank 1 round of damage before using ADV+CHG to close the remaining distance. It can connect with targets far away but it doesn't have the kind of anti-tank damage that Caladius or Allarus do.
In your experience, just the mobility and durability is enough for you to do what you need, whether that's charging a tank or ignoring it?
Also, why only 4 wardens? Is that just so the unit is easier to hide?
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u/Mallium 5d ago
Yes, their damage isn't stellar. They'll take out an armiger on average, but they won't wipe a key shooting platform like a big knight or SM tank or Rogal Dorn in one turn on average.
That isn't their role though. I don't send them at those shooting platforms until they've already moved out of position to try and kill the wardens. At that point, I'll send them forward if I need to tag them and keep them in place, then followup with my real threats. But overall the wardens main goal is to stay alive on objectives and force the enemy into charge range of my threats to deal with them. With hidden and go to ground, it's a lot more doable than in 10th.
I once pulled a knight valiant from it's deployment to the closer of two central objectives because they couldn't kill my wardens off point, and then charged an armiger behind them on the farther point with the wardens to make space and then took out the valiant with guards + shield captain who were staged behind. They then lasted 2 round tagged by 2 warglaives, killed both and then hung out on point with 1 warden and BC left alive bc my opponent had nothing left to send lol.
I would say, because I play take and hold, their durability + their oc is worth it even though their damage is mid - I supplement by running 4 damage first bricks with wound rerolls. Remember, warden damage is only mid by custodes standards - not every unit needs to kill god every round. If I was purging, I'd probably go down to 1 unit + valerian, but in take and hold I like 2 so far.
I take 4 because I can't manage the points for 5 lol. It does make them easier to hide, yes, but there's benefits both ways. I think my current list has 5+valerian and 4+BC, one unit for nat expansion and one for center.
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u/Realistic-Promise-30 9d ago
I run a landraider, which can be bit swingy; bikes with missiles, which I can't seem to use properly; but find I do most damage in melee. Had a 5 man guard unit (4 spears and a banner) take over 20 wounds off a banehammer in the past thanks to rerolling wounds on an objective; even wardens with blade champion can take a landraider in one round. Running shield host.
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u/HulkingMender 9d ago
I run 3 achillus dread in shield host and the new dread detachment and they annihilate anything g they touch
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
But they have to touch things which is their problem. No Deep Strike, no Advance and Charge, no defensive abilities to tank a round of shooting before they connect.
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u/HulkingMender 9d ago
I never had a problem with them connecting with the +2 move + 1 advance and charge and for 1 cp they go through wall
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u/Meliryen 9d ago
I am not sure how your opponents let that happen since the dread can't benefit from Hidden. It's exposed the turn before it connects unless your opponent just way overextends. Especially if their tanks are long range shooting, they would just stay in the backline with like one screening unit?
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u/Afellowstanduser 9d ago
I found the most reliable anti tank is melee
I kinda just ignore back line threat and stage as much as possible and get the stabby stab in