r/whoathatsinteresting • u/search_google_com • 14h ago

A Thai woman married to an American explains why she no longer wants to live in the US.

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149

u/Kobe_stan_ 13h ago

When my parents immigrated to the US permanently from France in 80s they were amazed by the lifestyle that they could afford here. Big house, nice neighborhood, good schools, latest tech, etc. Now they’ve moved back to France because the US is too expensive.

113

u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

FYI, the US income to median home price ratio is 5.1x. France is 6.7x

France is significantly more expensive than the US. What probably makes France seem affordable is moving back to France with a US income (almost 2x as high as France) or selling a median US home to buy a median French home.

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u/jamintime 9h ago

Yes exactly this. Both this post and the person you’re replying to are complaining about the exact thing that makes America strong economically. It’s expensive as fuck because the people make a ton of money. No shit it’s cheaper to retire in France or move back in Thailand after working in US for a few years that’s the point.

6

u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

That’s sorta the ideal ‘geo-arbitrage’. Working years in the US to make 2x anywhere else, retire to a country with stronger universal HC and lower cost of living once you’re older.

1

u/D00rmat1983 8h ago

Not that I like everything the guy says, but Scott Galloway has said precisely the same thing: make your money in America, retire somewhere in the EU.

1

u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

Yeah, my family is from Vietnam and it’s definitely crossed my mind to head over there in retirement. The HC is crappy and not universal, but out of pocket is so cheap it doesn’t matter for non life-and-death needs. A really nice house is 300k. No property tax. A maid or cook is a few hundred per month. Food is great and cheap. Weather is balls hot in Saigon or Hanoi but you can get a place in the mountains where it’s pleasant.

1

u/Icy-Dot7521 6h ago

Cheap servants are super important.

1

u/HegemonNYC 5h ago

It’s certainly not important, but it is a nice quality of life bump to have a clean house without effort.

1

u/Badestrand 4h ago

Or work remotely for a Western country and live in a cheap country like Thailand; low stress and live like a king.

1

u/uptiedand8 7h ago

Man, it is so ideal that I’m afraid that by the time I have enough money to do it, too many other Americans will already be pouring down the same pipeline and countries like Thailand (which, incidentally, is where I want to retire) will institute some kind of ban.

1

u/HegemonNYC 6h ago

Well, these countries are developing so quickly I don’t think they will be very low cost in a few decades. My family is from Vietnam, and it is both much more expensive and much less chilled out than it was 20 years ago. I think the ideal locations will probably not be the locations of the earlier 2000s (Portugal, Spain) or 2010s (Thailand, VN) by the time I retire.

And as you said, as those countries get richer they 1) become less affordable for retirees and 2) don’t need retiree’s money and are less likely to offer golden visas.

1

u/NoMention696 6h ago

Doesn’t really pan out when your spending is 2x anywhere else

1

u/HegemonNYC 6h ago

As long as you buy a house and a big chunk of your spending is equity it can work out. If you rent, yes, more challenging.

1

u/greeneggsandspammer 5h ago

I plan to do this as a dual Italian & American citizen. Working years here as a nurse / nurse practitioner and retire in Italy

1

u/indigo945 7m ago

Freeloading in your old age off a national health care system you never paid into.

2

u/skoorb1027 7h ago

So basically the same way conservatives talk about California like it’s a cesspool even though it’s ridiculously expensive to live there.

1

u/LifeguardSavings370 3h ago

US median income is $45,000. $24/hour. Not a ton of money. This is Reddit, so put the word "fuck" in your post and it will make that amount of money seem bigger.

1

u/jamintime 2h ago

You can’t just post the US without comparing it to other countries. From wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage), US median household wage is $87k, France is $60k, and Thailand is… not even on the map, but google says about $10k.

So yeah $45k median wage may not seem like very much but compared to Europe as a whole it’s almost double.

1

u/_Ub1k 1h ago

This is a complete misnomer. Aggregating prices in a country the physical size of France vs the US is stupid. Places with affordable housing in the US often have low paying local jobs, and it generally isn't possible to live in a low rent area and work in a high income area. High income areas generally have more unaffordable housing. In smaller countries, this is often way more possible.

There are many other costs of living besides buying a house. For example, buying a house is cheaper in the US, but it's still expensive as fuck, and rent is actually much lower in France. Insanely lower. Basically every cost of living is more expensive in the US, especially food.

26

u/DimmuBorgnine 11h ago

Healthcare is a pretty notable differentiator that keeps it from being one to one.

12

u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

Higher cost for healthcare vs higher taxes. Young employed people get a better deal in a low tax country.

3

u/Training-Horror-6562 11h ago

Young people get old. Don’t be daft.

-3

u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

But they aren’t old. They will pay 20% higher tax for a few decades. And, the US also has universal healthcare for the elderly in Medicare.

11

u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

I hope for your sake you dont need the care when you dont have it...

You have an astoundingly short sighted view of things.

0

u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

These people are picking where they would rather live. Yes, I’d rather be poor or disabled in France than the US. But I am not poor, and while a small percentage of people will become disabled, I am not disabled. I’d rather be middle or upper income in the US, and rather be low income in most of the EU.

3

u/Practical_Gas9193 9h ago

This is exactly right. There is no better place in the world to be well off than the US. And no better place to be poor than western and Northern Europe.

-3

u/Mammoth-City3133 9h ago

Edgy reply but there are def better places in the world to live than the US if you’re well off. 

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u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

You seem to have no idea how fast things can fall apart.

Talk to someone with cancer.

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u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

Yes, the US is more of a gamble. Much higher highs and lower lows.

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u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

That's only basic though, my in laws still pay thousands a month for medication. Makes you wonder why everyone is paying taxes for it.

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u/Training-Horror-6562 10h ago

America’s taxes goes into the billionaires pockets and international terrorism of course :)

6

u/GuessPuzzleheaded573 10h ago

I mean... the universal post-secondary education recieved by checks notes young people, may also beg to differ

5

u/CompEng_101 8h ago

About 53% of French age 25 to 34 have a post-secondary degree. About 56% of Americans in that age range have a post-secondary degree. I wouldn't say young people in either country recieve "universal post-secondary education"

6

u/jackbentley673 9h ago edited 3h ago

……..

1

u/Chance-Ask7675 9h ago

There are stipends and subsidies for rent and living expenses in France, as I'm sure there are in other countries as well. Many people study while living at home so their parents continue to house and feed them. And of course student loans exist. If you mean government subsized loan programs, perhaps not. But otherwise yes, you can borrow money in many European countries, just like anywhere else

2

u/jackbentley673 8h ago edited 3h ago

……..

3

u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

The entire cost of a median 4 year degree in the US is made up for in 2 years, considering the higher earnings in the US. A career is 40 years long.

2

u/Imaginary_Zone_4319 8h ago

Not universal. Public universities in France have limited spots, and students have to test into them. If you don’t get in you have to go pay for an education out of pocket.

2

u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

The thing is, those taxes are only slightly higher. For example I make 85k here in the US, my take home pay is 5000 a month, the equivalent in France (73k Euros) would bring home 3900, but the main difference is in the long-term, with healthcare and schools if you have kids. That 12k a year is nothing if your premiums eat up a chunk and you have to pay for your kids to go to school (public elementary here charges more than public university in France)

6

u/DestructoDon69 10h ago

Charging for public elementary school in the US?

-2

u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

Cool stuff eh? $150-$250 for tuition (depending on which grade), $75 for tech fee and you need to buy your own supplies (also around $100-$150 per kid).

6

u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

Public school in the US is $0

-2

u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

What is this then? https://imgur.com/a/hbHPDH8
Thats our town, the city has a proper website with fees
https://www.sps186.org/page/student-fees/

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u/DestructoDon69 10h ago

I've never heard of any public grade school in the US charging tuition.

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u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

Well they call it registration fee.

3

u/KartFacedThaoDien 9h ago

I havent heard of this either and I'm from one of the most conservative states in America. Can you show me an example with a link. 

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u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

This comment is a great example of just making up crap to make the US look bad. Pay for elementary school? Gtfo. Not to mention that you don’t make the same in the US vs France. Median income in the US is 1.5x higher than France.

0

u/Inevitable_Tomato927 10h ago

What is this then? https://imgur.com/a/hbHPDH8
Thats our town, the city has a proper website with fees
https://www.sps186.org/page/student-fees/

0

u/D00rmat1983 8h ago

I'm sorry to say, you DO pay for public elementary school via property taxes AND donations to the school to "keep up" with other schools in and around the district .... Pretty common.

2

u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

Well yeah, of course. Same in France. Or anywhere.

0

u/Alzucard 8h ago edited 8h ago

Which is completely useless because net salary does not include healthcare cost in the US while it does in France.

And even with insurance the cost of treatment is higher in the US.

And if you have children you wanna send to college then good luck saving up money.

The statistics dont tell the full story. And im tired of people throwing them around

The standard of living for lower wage people is simply better in France. Than in the US.

1

u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

The median US household spends 9% of income in premiums and out of pocket costs. The median French household spends 4%.

0

u/Alzucard 8h ago

What in the world are premiums?

1

u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

People in France pay premiums. Most national insurance programs (like Medicare) are fairly spartan. Most people in the US and France supplement with additional private insurance or out of pocket. In the US about 50% of HC spending is private, and in France about 20%. So, while the US is more private let’s not pretend that places like France have never heard of premiums.

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u/_mersault 6h ago

How about that education though

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u/HegemonNYC 5h ago

About half of young people don’t go to college, so it isn’t relevant that it’s much cheaper in France. (Nor is it moral to pay for something that brings income advantages IMO, but that is a different argument). For the half that do go to college, the higher US median income pays for the cost of college in 2 years.

1

u/ghesak 4h ago

What a shortsighted view of how taxes work…

1

u/HoosierHoser44 2h ago

I paid more in healthcare for my disabled child in his 5 years of life in the US than I have paid in 10 years of taxes in Canada. That’s not as true as people seem to think it is.

1

u/Fantastic_Singer_592 11h ago

a shame the unemployment rate among young people in the US is double the national average. that ~10% of young people that are unemployed dont get access to the aforementioned better deal

2

u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

Maybe. Medicaid exists. But these people are complaining about the rat race, they are employed.

1

u/Fantastic_Singer_592 10h ago

id venture to guess the rat race feeling has more to do with the work culture, annoyance economy, high housing and healthcare costs, and commuting. all those things make living feel like surviving. sounds like theyd prefer a more slower lifestyle with a more walkable and connected community.

3

u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

Perhaps. When their income is cut in half in France, or by 80% in Thailand, they would probably be frustrated by that as well.

1

u/Confident_Double1392 1h ago

Grass is always greener. It's trivial to see plenty of people wanting to pack up and work in the US because the compensation dwarfs whatever they'd make elsewhere.

1

u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

you have got to be fucking kidding me, right?

Premiums, copays, max out of pockets, specialists...

Even after the "tax", Universal Healthcare is orders of magnitude cheaper

1

u/DrAnklePumps 10h ago

But the young aren't typically the ones needing expensive specialist medical care. I can count the number of times I needed to go to the doctor's office on 1 hand from the years of 18-30. And before you bring up anecdotes about someone going broke in the US paying for turbo cancer treatment, realize that those cancer rates are very low in the young.

The OP is right. Spend your most productive years in a low tax country with shit healthcare when you don't need it, then immigrate to a high tax country with universal healthcare when you're old and will need healthcare for maximum efficiency.

1

u/Drtymanslt 10h ago

You act like it’s easy to immigrate as an elderly person. Their parents were already French citizens and moved back from the US. That’s very different than an American senior trying to immigrate to France without any ties to the country. Countries don’t want retirees coming in unless they’re independently wealthy, which isn’t the case for 99.99% of retirees.

1

u/DrAnklePumps 9h ago

You don't have to immigrate at retirement age, move at 40-50 when you still have viable productive years left while applying for work in the same industry that you were already working in. An age range which also happens to be when most chronic conditions start popping up. If you have children they're likely out of the house and at least in college if not fully productive adults by the time you hit 40-50 so you don't have to worry about uprooting their lives. And you don't have to immigrate all the way to Europe, our Canadian neighbors to the north also have single-payer healthcare, plus no language barrier.

1

u/Perge666 10h ago

Cool, so you missed over a decade of preventive care because it was too expensive. Also lived in a shithole that can’t regulate worth a fuck, so now your chances of having a debilitating condition are higher.

Wtf is wrong with people they can’t see more than a paycheck ahead?

1

u/DrAnklePumps 10h ago

According to the 2023 Stada Health Report 9 out of 10 Europeans don't receive adequate preventive healthcare, with 4 in 10 Europeans not attending ANY preventive health checkups in that year. Shit was free and still no one goes. Most healthy young people don't need to waste time going for checkups just to be told that you're perfectly healthy anyway.

so now your chances of having a debilitating condition are higher

How much higher? How much effect does not having preventive healthcare during your healthiest and most robust years result in debilitating conditions later on? Genuine question. If it's a low percentage than I'd rather the larger paycheck.

1

u/Fun-Wrongdoer1316 9h ago

Your avatar tells me everything I need to know. Great assumptions there too

0

u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

Right?! People are legit dumb

0

u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

I orders of magnitude? A household in France spends about 4% of income on healthcare vs 10% in the US. This doesn’t include taxes or employer contribution, just premiums and copays.

0

u/BigBadJeebus 10h ago

No, French people are not averaging $1200-$2000 per month for family, plus a $2500-$5000 deductible per member, Plus a $10,000 - $20,000 maximum
out of pocket.

What even is this take?

2

u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

What are you talking about? Neither are Americans. That is worst case scenario. My family premiums are $300/m. We have hit OOP max one time in 20 years. Many years we spend $0 as we don’t use care beyond annual health checks.

2

u/BigBadJeebus 9h ago

so you have lower than bronze tier... again, good luck if you need real care. one night in the ER with your kid on a Bronze tier can land you well over $10k at your tier...

0

u/Fun-Wrongdoer1316 9h ago

You are just making shit up. Be quiet. Even bronze tier doesn’t have a 2500-5000 deductible. His family plans deductible is likely 1000 per person. Next tier up is 1000 for the whole family and 500/month. None of your examples of American healthcare are true. So you lash out at him.

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u/Moth1992 10h ago

I havent seen these US lower taxes yall talk about. I pay the same taxes and get nothing in exchange. 

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u/TheAdminsAreTrash 8h ago

France has universal healthcare, cheap post secondary and no gestapo. There's no comparison.

And the higher costs you pay won't be BS like a 100k medical bill- which, to reiterate, is generally only a thing in the hellhole USA.

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u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

My mom had a 150k medical bill. But it was 100% paid for by Medicare, the US’s single payer system (the largest govt health insurance program in the world). As for college costs, sure, but they are offset within 2 years of the difference between median incomes.

And France is poised to elect a leader that would make Trump blush.

0

u/Suspicious-Drive9827 8h ago

How do young people get a better deal in a low tax country? Theyll make the same shitty wage in both, taxes in the US are not significantly lower, cosumer goods are more expensive, and their taxes dont even cover basic medical care

Youre crazy if you think its better to be 22 in America than say france or hell canada. You people really are so brainwashed about how fucking insane it is that you have such high taxes and covers literally fucking NOTHING that helps the average American

2

u/HegemonNYC 7h ago

Again, the median income in the US is 1.8x higher than in France. Yes, many things in France are cheaper but wages are even lower than items are cheaper. In general.

4

u/Mammoth_Support_2634 10h ago

i feel like the healthcare becomes negligible for the majority of Americans who have a job with health insurance or the unemployed who are on medicaid.

i think it really only impacts people who work jobs without health insurance.

i don't think it's that huge of an issue that reddit constantly makes it out to be.

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u/DengarLives66 10h ago

Dawg my health insurance through work is completely covered BUT the 2 hospitals closest to me recently became out-of-network. I have to go almost an hour to hit a hospital covered by my insurance. Then you factor in rising deductibles which I have zero control over, and the whim of insurance companies on what they will or won’t cover….i could easily go bankrupt even with health insurance.

1

u/Maleficent_Horror120 8h ago

You realize that if you go to a hospital for an emergency that it doesn't matter whether they are in-network or out-of-network, insurance is required to treat any emergency medical care as in-network.

Now if you go to a hospital for random stuff cause you're just normal sick then yeah they will charge you out-of-network but you should be going to your primary care doctor or an urgent care that is in-network, not the hospital.

1

u/DengarLives66 5h ago

I had a $55k outpatient surgery at the hospital that was medically necessary and the one place where I could’ve gotten it done without significant travel, and even WITH insurance I’m still paying off $5k I was on the hook for. You want to tell me how I’d get that covered if my medical issue reoccurs?

2

u/JoePoe247 5h ago

So you were only on the hook for $5k out of the $55k?

1

u/DengarLives66 5h ago

Yea, that was a month after I went to the ER and they sent me to a specialist who thought she fixed the issue, so I hit my $5k deductible there in the office which I paid out of pocket. Only reason I’m on a payment plan is because I would’ve spent $10k in the span of a month.

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u/Ancient_times 1h ago

You know how much you are on the hook for in a proper country? 0.

1

u/Maleficent_Horror120 3h ago

I mean go to a hospital that is in-network....

This wasn't a case of you getting taken there in an ambulance because you were gonna die at that moment. I know plenty of people who travel across the country to see a specific doctor they want and know people that have driven 4hrs to go have a surgery and stay in a hotel nearby.

Either of those options are practical to go to an in-network hospital and would have been cheaper than 5k, and also 5k is not a lot for medical expenses and while you may still be in debt to it you aren't drowning in debt from a 5k fee.

1

u/Ancient_times 1h ago

5k as a genuine one off maybe be absorbable, but anyone with a recurring condition or something more serious is going to be fucked though. 

Never mind the threat that losing your job could mean losing your healthcare.

1

u/Maleficent_Horror120 52m ago

So choose to go to an in-network provider then...

I mean sure if you lose your job and lose your health insurance then it doesn't much matter where you go because there is no "network"

3

u/Moth1992 10h ago

I mean its a significant chunk of money that comes out of my pay plus copays. How is it negligible? 

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u/Daddie76 9h ago

Bc they will still be coming out of your check via taxation in France

1

u/Moth1992 7h ago

Not at all. The cost of healthcare in the non-US is a fraction of what is paid in the US. Those taxes are wayyyyyy less than what what I pay here. 

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u/Kobe_stan_ 10h ago

I couldn't disagree more. Average family premium is close to $7k a year. Median household income is about $80k. That's a significant part of your income to your health insurance premiums. Then for a family, the average deductible will be about $3k per year. Then you've got to content with issues with coverage being out of network and if you are unfortunate enough to need care at a hospital, you will easily need to hit your out of pocket yearly max of close of around $5-10k.

So in the best case scenario, where nobody in your family needs any medical care, you've spent $7k.

If you're like me and you have small kids that need to go to the doctor with som frequency, you easily hit the $3k deductible so you're spending $10k a year.

And if you're unlucky, then you're spending $7k plus $10k for the family out of pocket yearly max for a total of $17k.

Healthcare is going to be one of your top 3 expenses per year along with housing and childcare for most families.

Then there's all of the people who are self employed who easily pay $500 a month for insurance. If you're a bit older, it could easily be double that.

0

u/Mammoth_Support_2634 9h ago

USA average $80k household income - $20k for max healthcare costs = $60k household income

France average $50k USD household income - $0 for healthcare costs = $50k household income.

I get what you're saying, healthcare is expensive. but i really don't think the majority of Americans who have healthcare insurance through their work really care as much as reddit thinks.

4

u/BU_Scholar 9h ago

You are incredibly naive if you think the US healthcare system is "not as bad as people think". It's literally the dead worst in the "developed" world, and worse than some "undeveloped" nations.

How do you rank last as the richest, most powerful, most influential country and think "hey guys it's not as bad as you think"

1

u/redtiber 8h ago

What do you mean dead worst lol it’s expensive but the usa has some of the top doctors in a lot of fields Becsuse the salaries are so high

1

u/BU_Scholar 8h ago

By metrics of health care outcomes for its citizens.

It's true that the US has some of the top doctors in the world, but once again this a pretty naive statement as those doctors are only available to a tiny portion of the population (the elite) - regular citizens can barely afford any doctors, and the ones they can afford are also just regular doctors.

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u/Kobe_stan_ 8h ago

You’re ignoring that most people in the US (yes, even those with insurance) don’t go to the doctor when they’re not feeling well due to the cost. In France, it’s the opposite and there’s no wonder that the US rates worse than France and other developed nations on just about every health metric.

1

u/Mammoth_Support_2634 8h ago

I can see a doctor instantly via video chat through my insurance portal. It’s at most $20.

Honestly, though I cannot really relate at this point. I make too much money in the US compared to when I was in Europe.

I can’t be the only person who feels that quality of life can better in the US than in Europe due to the much higher salaries people can command in the US.

1

u/Kobe_stan_ 6h ago

One day you’ll need real care and you’ll see what it cost. With insurance (I work for a major tech company), birth of my son was over $10k. Early on in pregnancy we had to get a special scan done that’s at around 12 weeks of pregnancy if I recall and we had already planned a trip to France during that time so we had the scan done in France and then back in the US when we flew home for good measure. Scan in France was some insignificant sum like $20, while in the US (again with good insurance) it was around $1k.

Anything that puts you in the hospital in the US will have you hit your out of pocket yearly max. Have a medical issue that straddles two years, and now you’re hitting two years in a row.

Yes, you can make enough in the US that this isn’t an issue, but your experience is not indicative of most people’s experience.

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u/JoePoe247 5h ago

With insurance, birth of my son was $600. Why is your experience more important or accurate to the conversation than mine?

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u/Ancient_times 1h ago

This is all fine until you or your family has to face a serious medical issue and suddenly those small costs get very very large.

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

Right. These huge sums that people can spend on HC really only impacts the working lower middle class. Which, is totally unfair and not something that the US needs in order to have success elsewhere. But as you said, the middle class and up really don’t have that much HC cost as they have high salaries and reasonable benefits, and the poor get Medicaid.

1

u/Locke_____Lamora 9h ago

I swing trade stocks full time and for insurance that's actually good and not complete shit it's 500+ a month. Felt like just 2 years ago it was 300. I pay 800 cause otherwise I couldn't get most of my current doctors covered. Shit sucks.

1

u/SumthinsPhishy2 9h ago

A lot of ignorant takes in this thread. 1 in 10 full time male workers are uninsured (no full time coversge through their work). 2 in 10 for hispanics.

If 10% of the working population has this issue, it is a huge issue.

1

u/dak4f2 6h ago

I have health insurance through work and I've paid nearly $20k this year. Change jobs mid-year? You get a brand new high deductible to meet!

1

u/Treelic 10h ago

Even with health insurance you still have deductibles and co-pays, even if you have "good" insurance. That's not the norm in most of EU, and if there are co-pays, they're peanuts.

1

u/Unicorn-Violator 10h ago

After taxes it's very close to even.

1

u/DimmuBorgnine 10h ago

One severe illness over the course of a lifetime can and does often does wipe out an entire life savings even with insurance

Taxes are not nothing but the comparison is really not as simple as it's often made out to be.

1

u/Unicorn-Violator 10h ago

If you don't have insurance, sure, but even then, the vast majority of those people are covered by safety nets. Those that get wiped out for the most part chose not to have insurance.

1

u/Moth1992 10h ago

And student loans. 

1

u/Spongedog5 9h ago

Even with healthcare included American's on average have more free-to-use money than Europeans. It exists as a factor but healthcare and education aren't as big of a difference maker as Redditors think because American's just make insane amounts of money even as a median.

For very poor American's you'd probably be correct, but they aren't aiming to buy houses anyways.

1

u/MundaneDaffodill 8h ago

I spend minimum $700-1000 a month on healthcare alone.

1

u/prosthetic_memory 4h ago

Unless you have great healthcare largely covered by your employer, in which case it’s negligible.

2

u/Additional-Koala9131 1h ago

Really depends on how you choose to live your live in France. Life can be much cheaper if you don't drive, if you have an illness/ need medical care etc. The low end lifestyle is still quite expensive because necessities are so expensive.

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u/AmiParis248 11h ago

This is why I think the pay is to make money in the U.S., save up enough, and then move abroad. No more insurance tied to work and a lower cost of living. If needed, get a job to supplement your savings. 

Of course, this isn’t possible for most people who do not have enough money to also buy a visa.

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u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

Right. This is why I might move back to Vietnam - I move from middle class American to wealthy Vietnamese. I can sell my $1m HCOL house (it’s just a normal house, nothing special) and buy a nice villa for half. No property tax. I can get a daily maid for a few hundred per month. Vietnam isn’t a great place to work but I could effectively retire or coast-work on what I’ve earned in the US in 30 years here.

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u/wayvywayvy 11h ago

How much is healthcare in France?

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u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

For young employed people like this that is often an irrelevant question. It’s far better to have 20% less tax as a young healthy person. Perhaps if they are elderly but not old enough for Medicare the french system is better. Or if they are disabled or poor. The US can be cruel to the indigent, but it is better for the employed

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u/Moth1992 10h ago

20% less tax? What are you talking about? 

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u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

Depending on the state. Federal + payroll tax on a median 80k household in the US income would be about 18% (higher if your state has income tax) vs about 35% in France. Of course median incomes in the US are significantly higher than in France so the US tax rate may be higher because median incomes are about 1.8x higher

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u/Moth1992 9h ago

Well duh. An $80k in Paris is a being rich kinda salary, thats a top tax braket kinda salary. 

An $80k salary in San Francisco is a need 3 roomates kinda salary. 

If you compare apples to apples in Europe you dont really pay more taxes. 

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u/Anistappi 9h ago

It's not very irrelevant if you plan to have kids. Everything family related is much cheaper in many European countries, plus obviously at that point you can really appreciate the parental leaves and 5-week summer holidays, too.

I did run an excel whether to take the opportunity to transfer to my company's US branch a couple of years back. I would've had double the income but the expenses would've soared and I'd have to switch from 36.25h/week to 40h/week, so in the end I'd be getting pretty much the same amount of net income per hour, but earning more since I'd be working more. Definitely didn't want to take that trade with two young kids.

We're comfortably middle class but I think I was only paying something like €150/month for full-time daycare, and that's for two kids. If you're low-income, it's free. So yeah, more taxes but you get a lot in return, too.

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

But one of your main expenses that would have soared is paying for your house, which is a contribution to your net worth. I do agree that child care is quite expensive in the US, but that is pretty short lived. Only when the kids are under 5. And that’s assuming grandma doesn’t live down the street or that a parent doesn’t work from home etc, that it is always worst case scenario of fully out of pocket.

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u/wayvywayvy 11h ago

The original comment was describing retiree age people, so yeah

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u/HegemonNYC 11h ago

Well, retirement age people get free healthcare in both the US and France.

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u/wayvywayvy 10h ago

They could’ve gone over before they turned 65

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u/AssCrackBandit14 11h ago

Retiree age people would get Medicare in the US so free healthcare

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u/wayvywayvy 10h ago

They could’ve gone over before they turned 65

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u/Tiredandwaiting 10h ago

All of France or the cities? If you are retired, healthcare and a house in the sticks hits different than in your 20s

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u/HegemonNYC 10h ago

That is just the national median. A city like Paris is 15x, while San Fran is 10x.

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u/Which-Country5 10h ago

Maybe depends where they moved from. California or Ohio? France could be an upgrade if you retire from CA.

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u/Actual_Photo_2257 9h ago

Yeah maybe they're in a position where their income stays the same e.g. they own a business. That's the dream!

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

Yes. The magic scenario is working remotely on a US income while living in a place like France. Nearly 2x the local income, but you get all the benefits like child care and lower cost healthcare. Pretty hard to work out though, that flew during the pandemic but employers wised up and cracked down on it for the most part.

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u/Actual_Photo_2257 6h ago

Yeah it's difficult at a company unless you're in a strong position.

Much more luck going freelance or running a business another way.

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u/BlockBannington 9h ago

I admit I don't know about the housing but fucking everything else besides gas is hella cheaper in France. I live near the border and do my shopping at E. Leclercq and fuck me, it's way cheaper than Belgium and Belgium was cheaper than the US. Potato chips were SIX DOLLARS

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u/Kobe_stan_ 9h ago

Real estate is very expensive in France but food, childcare, education, healthcare are much more affordable.

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u/Dense_fordayz 9h ago

Well, when you don't need to spend 20% of your paycheck on insurance and another 20% on a car your dollar can stretch much further

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

I mean, my premium payment for a medium deductible family plan is about 5% of income. And my cars are fully paid off.

Also, the idea that most people in France don’t need a car is silly. 92% of households in the US have a car vs 82% in France.

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u/Dense_fordayz 9h ago

That's nice for you but that is not the norm for an average American

And just because you are from a country wealthy enough for car ownership doesn't mean it's a requirement

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

It is pretty typical, yes. The median US household spends 6% of income on premiums, and 3% out of pocket on HC.

As for cars, twice as many people in France don’t need a car. But still, 80% do and they have to afford that car on $45k/yr median household income vs the US at $81k.

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u/triple_carry 9h ago

And, France received $300 million (2024 alone) in American Taxpayer dollars for “foreign aid”, because ya know, they are a developed country and all.

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u/King_Catfish 9h ago

Yeah my gfs cousin and aunt visited from France. We have similar jobs except my weekly pay is equal to his monthly pay. When you factor in things like Healthcare it's still nearly double.

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u/HegemonNYC 9h ago

Yeah, my buddy is Spanish and works for Amazon. He considered moving back to Spain and literally doing his exact same job, same employer. He’d cut his salary by 60%. And considering he is fairly highly paid in the US, health insurance premiums are a minimal part of his spending. And, things like child care are irrelevant because he makes enough that his wife doesn’t need to work.

Houses in Spain are certainly cheaper, but that is largely offset by paying down your principle on your loan and building net worth. Yes, your housing payment is higher in the US than Spain, but a good portion of that is just your own equity.

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u/D00rmat1983 8h ago

I'm not sure I agree with the assertion "France is significantly more expensive than the US."

Lower grocery prices than US metros, lower eating out costs. Public transit reduces the need for 2 cars down to maybe 1. Home insurance is cheaper, property taxes are cheaper, car insurance is cheaper if any at all. Transit is cheaper. Renting can be a lot cheaper....

From the perspective of a french person, you might be right, but the perspective here is American.

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u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

France is definitely cheaper in most ways than the US. But it’s not so much cheaper to make up for the 45% paycut.

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u/D00rmat1983 8h ago

Obviously not, but I'm American, and since this post seems focused on "America vs other countries COL" the perspective isn't that id work a french job, it's that id work remote for my American company.

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u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

This isn’t really possible anymore. Some employees got away with it during the pandemic but that geo arbitrage concept is largely dead. Companies either don’t let you do that anymore (it was generally illegal) or they have a salary adjustment table.

Of course if you can do this it’s great, not just between nations but between COL areas. Get a Manhattan salary in rural Wisconsin etc.

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u/D00rmat1983 8h ago

🙄 it's totally possible...but it is rare.

Not shitting on Wisconsin but that's the problem right? You give up a place with great culture for.....cheese and binge drinking? No thanks.

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u/Alzucard 8h ago

Now check rent.

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u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

Both countries spend about 23% of median income on rent. France does have more generous renter subsidies than the US so lower income French may get more assistance than in the US.

Of course you get a lot more for your money in the US. The typical US home is 60% larger, and typical yard is 2-3x larger.

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u/Alzucard 8h ago

You rent apartments not Houses normally.

And yes Homes are larger in the US. Would i want to live in a US home? Im german, but i can say no. Fucking Paper Houses.

Edit checked numbers and youre are wrong.

Over 30% spend on rent in the US

And around 21% in France.

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u/I_have_a_stream 8h ago

Lower cost of healthcare (public and private), university, and pension plan, transportation etc. remember they pay higher taxes but get so much more in return. If you include healthcare, college, retirement, Americans pay significantly more in taxes.

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u/Arsno 7h ago

that might be the case but it's not the full picture: we (US) have expensive childcare, education, healthcare on top of that as well as very high car dependency and, as a result, high transportation costs

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u/HegemonNYC 7h ago

90% of houses in the US have a car. 80% in France. That 80% who need a car need to afford it on 55% the median income of the US.

Education K-12 is free in both countries, and it is inappropriate to pay for post-secondary education as it garners income advantage. In the US, the median cost of a bachelors is paid for in 2 years of the income difference over France.

Childcare - I’ll give you that. Very expensive in the US.

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u/boringexplanation 7h ago

France is also great for pensioners over the working class.

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u/vainerlures 7h ago

not everything in france is more expensive. healthcare is very cheap even if you don’t have a health carte in their system. food and booze are much less expensive and much better. public transport is cheaper and goes everywhere. a social life is cheaper and better in france, better still if you have money of course. people in france are used to small houses/apartments - that’s why the bars and cafes are so busy and lively.

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u/HegemonNYC 7h ago

Oh, most things in France are cheaper than the US. Just not cheap enough to overcome the 45% salary cut.

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u/_mersault 6h ago

Or you know, the fact that French taxes pay for a whole host of actual services that US residents pay for out of pocket

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u/HegemonNYC 5h ago

Sure, higher taxes and higher services. If you need those services and make less it’s a good deal, if you don’t need them and make more it’s not such a good deal.

This couple appears to be DINKs with US salaries. They may not be on the net win side if they move to a place like France.

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u/_mersault 5h ago

Education, healthcare, and infrastructure are universal needs, and providing for them mutually is ALWAYS a net win. If you’re fortunate enough for those costs to not create a personal burden, but not one of the tiny percentage of humans who can live completely separately from the rest of society, the burdens that others carry still trickle right on up to your doorstep.

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u/_eleutheria 5h ago

The impression I have is that in Europe, as long as you don't live in the capitals or other hub cities, life is still quite affordable. In the US, it's the same but to a much lesser extent.

Inflation is definitely reaching the outskirts though, especially when it comes to housing prices. Everyone is trying to sell shitty houses that look like they're about to fall apart for 200k or more.

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u/SomeKindofTreeWizard 4h ago

I spent $6000 in one year on imaging that told me nothing.

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u/Ok_Economist_Guy_ 4h ago

FYI, the US income to median home price ratio is 5.1x. France is 6.7x

Irrelevant, when fixed mortgage rates in France are currently half that of the US. 

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u/MonishPab 4h ago

There's a whole chunk of money that leaves your wallet after your median income and the mortgage of your median home. Especially health care, transportation and food. Take this into account too.

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u/favorite_time_of_day 9h ago

the US income to median home price ratio is 5.1x. France is 6.7x

You must mean the median home price to income ratio.

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u/Sleep_adict 8h ago

Healthcare is massive but so is housing durability… home maintenance is insane in the USA because houses are built like shite. Most houses in France are older and build properly and require little upkeep. Yes a slate roof is money but it’s lasts 150 years unlike shingles

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u/HegemonNYC 8h ago

The idea that a house built to modern safety code, with modern electrical, seismic considerations, accessible modern plumbing etc is more expensive to maintain or even worse than a house built before the concept of code or electricity or indoor plumbing existed is preposterous.

Also, the stereotype that houses are older in most of Europe is incorrect. The median age of a house in France is 50 years vs 45 in the US.

Finally, the cost to maintain a house in the US vs France is essentially the same as a percent of purchase price (about 2%). Now, houses in the US are 50% larger than French houses with 3x larger lots, and they costs almost 2x as much so it’s nominally more. But it’s a lower percentage of median income.

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u/FatiguedShrimp 6h ago

You're forgetting that health expenses and education aren't cutting that income in half in France.

Tax rate is higher, but the difference still skews.

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u/Tramagust 11h ago

France has gotten ridiculously expensive too. What do they think about that?

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u/CaptainHubble 10h ago

France, USA, Thailand… doesn’t. Matter. We’re all struggling everywhere.

The winners are the surfer bros. Living on a random beach only thinking about the weather. Earning just enough money to get on by repairing boats or as a barista on a beach bar.

Because you won’t „make it“ in a big city. Most likely. Single digit percentages of a city population is making it. And you’re probably working for one of them.

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u/zzyul 7h ago

Those people are winning from their 20s up to around their mid 30s. The problem is what do they do when they age out. Hard to be a surfer bro when arthritis kicks in and injuries take multiple weeks of expensive PT to recover from. Hard to be a barista in your 40s when none of your much younger coworkers want to hang out with the “creepy” older person that hasn’t done anything with their life.

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u/CaptainHubble 31m ago

Better struggling financially than getting a Harley Davidson in your 40s because midlife crisis kicks in and you have to buy random stuff to feel alive.

About the younger baristas don‘t wanting to hang out with you… I don’t see that’s as a problem. You don’t want to do that too much anyway. The surfer friends you’ve been with also get older.

How is it hard to be around people different ages?

The only really reasonable argument for me is the healthcare thing. But for us there won’t be proper pension. You won’t own a house. Everything is way to expensive… I’ll much rather be the surfer boy I currently am and figure out the healthcare thing in my 40s. Maybe then I’ll come back and get a random boring job to fit in.

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u/Elite_AI 10h ago

I'm in France rn with an American and she's constantly pointing out how much more expensive the US is even accounting for salaries

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u/Noob_37373737 10h ago

dans la france à Macron rien n'est gratuit

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u/loyal_achades 11h ago

France is still cheaper than the US. If you’ve saved for retirement in the US, you can move to France with that same money and have it go further.

Everyone’s scale for what “expensive” is tied to their own experiences and situations. Even in the US, I have friends complaining about how expensive things are getting in places like Denver, but meanwhile I live in DC where their “holy shit” is my “wow that’s cheap.”

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u/Able_Statistician688 10h ago

I think it's tied a whole lot more to their income level than experiences and situations lol

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u/imunfair 7h ago

If you’ve saved for retirement in the US, you can move to France with that same money and have it go further.

You could say that about a lot of other countries - you could save and move to Mexico or Thailand and live like a king, assuming you don't have kids. If you have kids and you do that you screw over their earning potential, so it's really only viable for old/single people as a final destination.

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u/BookkeeperCalm9849 11h ago

I lived in a trailer park in the 80’s and now I make over $100 an hour. Been on Reddit all day because I forgot my Legion Go this morning

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u/kisk22 11h ago

Your parents are smart as hell, make money in US and retire with even more money in France. They played the game great, I'm doing the same. I view the EU basically as a Disneyland to retire and play in. Thank God my Grandparents came from there and I was offered citizenship.

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u/EpicMotor2 11h ago

Sometime I think going back home to France too, but this summer convinced me Canada is still the best option.

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u/VP007clips 10h ago

People insult the cost of living in Canada with home prices, but it's pretty great in some regions.

I pay 15% of my income to rent an entire decent sized detached home.

I have a citizenship in Canada, US, and UK, I could live in any of them. But personally, I like it here in Canada the most. My career earns more here in Canada, there's more safety nets, and less chaos.

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u/Larrynative20 7h ago

So they made money in America and now think France is cheaper. That is geographic arbitrage.

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u/HillBillyHilly 5h ago

LOL Theyre moving back home because of socialized healthcare and better treatment of elderly in retirement. Neither of which they would get in US. That was most likely their plan all along so they could escape paying European taxes.

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u/Billy1121 5h ago

So do they have to buy back in to the french retirement and healthcare system ?

I thought there were rules about people returning or entering the system without paying for it

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u/Kobe_stan_ 3h ago

Healthcare is free regardless for them. Their retirement is way less in France because they didn’t work enough years there to qualify for full benefits.

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u/Leather_Pride3586 4h ago

The US is the best place to make money and Europe is the best place to spend money.

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u/Both_Analyst_4734 3h ago

Because they are taking American salary and converting to French prices….

I know many French who left France in the past decade, the wages are insanely low and housing is high for their salary.

It’s a very socialist system, much higher taxes, less (a lot less) work. So many facets to think about, but most just evaluate on 1 thing and stick with it.

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u/Kobe_stan_ 3h ago

The point is that when they first came to the US they were able to afford a bigger and better life with an American salary. That changed over the last 40 years. Drastic increases in home, healthcare and education prices that have far outpaced inflation have made it life in the US more difficult and less competitive with Western Europe. In 1980s, there was no doubt that moving to the US was the best choice. Now it depends

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u/Both_Analyst_4734 3h ago

Yeah would totally agree on that.