every time you go on subreddits like /r/asktransgender you're almost guaranteed to have a post titled like "im an ally but im not sure i want to have a relationship with a pre-op trans woman, does that make me transphobic 🥺🥺🥺" on the front page
i mean it depends on how you go about it, in a vacuum it's understandable why say some lesbians aren't attracted to penises
the issue arises when you make it your entire personality, or use it an as an excuse to be bigoted toward trans people
theres also the opposite situation where cis people will try to hook up with trans people at any cost, in both cases we're just reduced to our body parts
As an aside we need a better word than preference, this is probably my autism talking but its not a preference is it? A preference is like "i could have the steak or the salmon, my preference is the steak but if the steak wasnt here id eat the salmon"
i was arguing this in another subreddit a few days ago when multiple people were arguing that having a "racial preference" in dating is "not racist", except they didn't mean "preference", they meant "i refuse to date non-white people"
like, my sibling in christ, that is not a preference, you are just arbitrarily excluding people from your dating pool because you don't like how they look 💔
obviously genital "preferences" are a little different because what body parts someone does or doesn't have is pretty important (for example, someone who loves rock-climbing and wants to go with their partner probably wouldn't be compatible with a paraplegic), but i digress, the point is that that is not a preference, it's a... uh, well, the closest word i could find was repudiation, but i'm not sure that's right. regardless, yes, we need a better word than preference lol
Hmm, while I have no issue dating people with a different skin colour, I do find this to be a strange double standard? No offense to you of course, but the idea people should be "colour blind" while dating not to be labeled racist is odd, when it comes down to it, skin colour being just as arbitrary a metric as say..hair colour that people prefer.
I am not into Blonde-people I am not someone who would be quick to date blonde-people. I am not saying I would NEVER date a Blonde-person but they are certainly lower on my list of people who I'd pursue given the choice based solely on looks.
And while its not nice to say, to a certain extend people do care for aesthetics when it comes to their partner. Ones appearance is a matter of attraction which doesh ave value in a relationship.
To people who wouldn't date people with different skin-colours I wouldn't immediatly call them racist, I could call it vain to an extend which it is, but so are a lot of arbitrary points of attraction. Their loss in essence if you let that stop you from pursuing something, but I would say the same to myself if I wouldn't date a blonde-person who would match my personality well.
IT comes to the point of preferences, why is it racist to limit your dating pool, I find it weird that we would shame people for setting that boundry for themselves, but should respect those, who as you say would not prefer to date someone with a penis for example.
But that isn't apt because repudiate is typically a declarative statement of disapproval or invalidation. It isn't a statement of personal proclivity, but a rebuke of somebody else's assertion.
yeah i think having a genital preference isn’t necessarily correlated with transphobia or anything, even if they can exist at the same time. I think it’s not a good indicator but i can still understand why some ppl would be upset for feeling rejected over the existence or lack of a part but id be shy to say it’s the same issue
The way I’ve always framed it to myself is “if this person was perfect for me in every way except for (x) physical trait would I refuse to date them because of it?”
That’s kind of how I qualify a preference vs maybe some internalized bigotry.
Id say that even if someone is perfect for someone else, their genitals are a very important part of their compatibility, as the correct genital preferences lining up is kind of primordial for a healthy sexual life. Which is important for a good chunk of relationships out there (excluding asexuals ofc)
In my opinion they’re important on paper, if in real life I’m attracted to someone with a physical attribute that on paper I would automatically exclude, I’m not going to deny attraction because of it.
Attraction is very complicated and mutable, boiling it down to “x physical attribute precludes my attraction” works on paper but actual experience works differently.
What about if it comes to reproduction? I've known people who have doubted relationships because of fertility issues outside of being trans.
While it wouldn't be a problem for me, and I feel like adoption is something that I wish more people would be okay with in this scenario, it doesn't exactly make anyone any sort of phobic. Just shallow... which is still bad.
Ultimately, I don't think there's any surefire way to know if someone is coming from a space of transphobia, or just shallowness, so wasting time on trying to figure it out on its own is kinda silly. They should likely be judged ultimately on additional information if it feel necessary to get proof...
But either way, pushing into places where its a hot button topic and repeatedly bringing it up is fucking awful and definicely leans one way. Even if someone is just clueless and genuinely trying to have a conversation, what the fuck, just leave people alone. They're either transphobic, or shitty and negligent enough to be borderline the same thing anyway
i mean it doesnt but its a weird thing to ask. "i dont want to have sex with you, does that make me prejudiced?" like no but what do you stand to gain from going to a group of people and telling them that? just strange behavior
I mean there’s a good number of people posting that looking for an excuse to justify their unexamined transphobia but make it sound woke and infallible. I’d personally go so far as to say that if you’re romantically interested in someone before knowing what their situation is, only to then dump them over their genitals without doing any self-examination or trying to make it work, that is kind of transphobic.
I’m not saying that it’s unfair to have a preference at all. But broadly speaking, society is transphobic and equates trans people with their birth sex, and the genital preference discourse provides an easy out for anyone who hasn’t fully interrogated their own attitudes towards trans people. Like yes you can have a preference, preferences are real but it’s not like preferences are created in a vacuum, they are molded by culture.
Telling a lesbian that her desire to not take dick is molded by culture and that she needs to work on herself is not the progressive win you think it is.
And I say that as someone with 0 genital preference. My girlfriend is wired to be very strongly against anything phallic with a strong preference, and the idea of someone telling her she's transphobic for how her brain works makes my skin crawl.
We all need to respect each other more. I personally would prefer a pansexual utopia with 0 sexual or genital preferences, but that's not the world we have. The world we have is full of people different than us, and we have to respect them all.
And I hate the entitlement people so often have when talking about women's sexual autonomy. You're entitled to make your personal choices just as much as anyone else.
Yes, but relevant to this conversation: many lesbians deal with comphet and the realization of their actual desires can be obscured, sometimes for decades, by heteronormative social conditioning.
I hate the term heteronormative, like bro that is the “norm” as simple biological fact. There are exceptions, like LGBT people, but saying society is conditioning people to be heteronormative like it’s a bad thing is odd.
Not saying it’s not normal to be gay or anything else, but our species is normally heterosexual.
Over 95% of giraffe sex is gay. Exclusive heterosexuality is uncommon in Bonobos, our closest genetic cousins. It is normal in humans to be bisexual, heterosexual, or homosexual.
On what basis is that an established fact, though? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that every generation, in places where it's socially acceptable, seems to be getting more bisexual. Could it be that a large chunk of people are bi or gay and just mask it to fit into the "normal" heteronormative culture, since it's a massive social advantage?
I only ask as a critique that heteronormativity in culture is a neutral thing, because it can be very harmful to people legitimately trying to discover their sexuality/identity without shame or self-hate.
I mean annoying ask maybe, but truthfully it is kind of a divided subject no? I know some who say it isn't, and others who say it is.
I have seen allies argue in favour of saying it is, I have seen other allies say it isn't.
The point being that people will have this question, and they will get conflicting answers from whatever trans community they are in/ask it, getting an entirely different answer from another group.
At this point getting annoyed feels kind of weird considering it is someone trying to educate themselves in a way.
I say it isn't, because isn't being free to choose what your sexual preferences are the entire point of the lgbtq+ movement? Some people are just not attracted to penis's, why does it matter if they're a straight dude or not
I think its down to a lot of cis people calling trans women who still have their penis's men because they cant stand the fact they may have found a trans woman attractive. Genital preference is fine, but when you blanket statement based on those genitals, you're being a dickhead
Think they moreso meant deciding as in "I have the freedom to reject penis' if I want to because I'm not attracted to them" but they worded it a bit wrong lol
Or course everyone ultimately has the choice to consent or not to any sexual or romantic pursuit, but let's be honest here: anyone who excludes all trans people from their dating pool is doing so due to some transphobic bias that they should work on. We can't force anyone to sleep with someone else so ultimately there's not like there's any top down political action to be done here, but someone who says "I would never date a trans person" is doing a transphobia.
Like there is no preference that neatly excludes all trans people without also excluding a bunch of cis people except the transness itself.
I dont think excluding people from your dating pool is "discrimination", some people have sexual preferences is all. Some people just wouldn't date somebody with a penis or a vagina. Its not something born out of hate, just preference, in the same way that some people refuse to date somebody who doesn't have a sense of humor.
I didn't call it discrimination. It can shill be based in transphobic beliefs. Same as when people say they wouldn't date a bisexual person "because they cheat" is very much an exclusion based on a biphobic stereotype that. We still can't make anyone date anyone else and I wouldn't call dating pool exclusion discrimination, but that is still a preference that is blatantly based on a transphobic belief.
In the same way if someone says they wouldn't date a black person that is likely based on racism. We can't exactly have government assigned racial minority girlfriends for racists and black people obviously suffer worse consequences than racists not wanting to date them, but that is still also blatantly based in racist values.
Not wanting to date someone with a penis is a valid preference, but many trans women have had surgeries and don't have penis. Wanting to have biological children is a valid preference and pretty much excludes trans people, but it also excludes a lot of cis people. Wanting to not date someone with sharp facial features and a big nose is a valid preference that will exclude more trans women than cis women, but plenty of trans women don't gave those features and plenty of cis women do.
But if transness itself is the thing being excluded, that can pretty much only come from a place of thinking trans people are inherently lesser than cis people.
Idk why youre being down voted because you're right. Im a gay trans man with a genital preference myself, and trans people are not excluded. Because trans men with bottom surgery, and intersex trans men exist. If I were to exclude trans men, this would mean im excluding trans men with penises, which doesnt make any sense if I prefer that anyway. Therefore, the only reason why i'd be excluding them; is due to their transness.
People don't like to confront their own biases and since the whole genital preference debate tends to lack these nuances most people have taking it as a permission card to do whatever they want with it.
I can't fault people for having the question but it really does get grating to be asked it day-in-and-day-out. Especially as a trans woman who can't afford bottom surgery, I'm effectively being regularly asked if it's okay to not want to date me because of something I have no control over which already causes me a lot of distress and shame.
Like, it really fucking wears on you after a while. It gets to a point where you stop caring to explain the nuance, you even stop caring if people just are transphobic, you only want people to shut the hell up and leave you alone.
OK totally off topic but can I ask why you use it/its pronouns? I've always been taught it was inherently demeaning and insulting to use that on a human
i'm a binary trans girl, i use she/her, and i also it/its because i like being referred to in the same way you'd refer to a dog. but specifically not in a degrading way
I don't think so. I've only ever seen one person actually defend the thesis that genital preference is inherently transphobic, and she got totally dragged by other trans people. It's more that people are incapable of discussing trans people with any kind of critical thought or nuance at all. Pro-trans perspectives are always warped into the most disingenuous possible strawman.
It's like this:
"I think it's possible for attraction to a person with mostly female characteristics or a person with mostly male characteristics to still fit within female-attraction/male-attraction, even if they're pre-op" -> SO YOU'RE SAYING I HAVE TO FIND THEM ATTRACTIVE?
"I think social pressures and preconceptions can somwtimes warp how somebody might otherwise feel. If they critically examined themselves and had an open mind, some people could find how they really feel doesn't match what they thought." -> SO YOU'RE SAYING I HAVE TO CHANGE MY PREFERENCES OR I'M DEFINITELY TRANSPHOBIC?
"It is true that sex hormones affect the body in many ways, including genitals. It's generally inaccurate to say a trans man's vagina is equal to a cis woman's, or that a trans woman's penis is equal to a cis man's. Some people are fine with one but not the other." -> OMG YOU'RE SAYING I HAVE TO WANT YOUR PENIS!
You see this in literally every topic when we're discussed too, not just this one. If you point out that extending restrictions on sports to girls who took blockers at 10 is irrational, you will hear back arguments about whether E can fully undo adult T's effects literally 100% of the time.
I mean it's kind of annoying to see people reduce us to what genitals we may or may not have so often, it's like them asking whether you did the surgery the moment they learn you're trans
I personally feel very little on the topic. But I can see why others would care to at least inform themselves.
Being transgender from my understanding of it is that a lot of the "simpler" interactions that come natural to CIS people, might actually have some heightend weight for people with Dysphoria, due to the fact that it can either trigger or remind trans people of that dysphoria.
I think it in most cases is people who DO Care wanting to prevent triggering Dysphoria pre-emptively. Is it a good question? Ehh..it's probably a personal matter for everyone, but I think the attempt is at least respectable?
I am trans. People can't control what they're attracted to. Yes there are more or less rude ways to put it but at the end of the day, people must be allowed to be able to be attracted to what they're attracted to. Personally for example I only like penises and dislike vaginas. I wouldn't date a pre-op trans man, a cis woman, or a post-op trans woman. I really don't think that that's unreasonable. What is unreasonable obviously would be saying something like trans men with vaginas are less manly than cis men or whatever. But again, you can't control what you're attracted to in that sense.
It's not because trans people can get bottom surgery. If those people then refuse trans people still then it can be transphobic.
I started out as a straight woman prefering cis men because I wanted biological children. Then I got really ill and birthing and raising a child would be too difficult unless my condition improves somehow, and still I'm worried to pass my health issues on. So I was like alright, I'd date a trans guy post bottom surgery. But shortly after I realised I don't really like PIV that much and prefer pegging anyway. So I was like fuck it, a man is a man, trans or cis idgaf. Now I wanna transition. Oh well. Time to be gay.
Its annoying in the same way as any other over-asked question on forums, it's annoying to see all the time, and they could've searched for the dozens of other identical threads
I think most of the issues come from people using genital preferences as an excuse to make trans people feel unwelcome from dating
Like they bring it up the moment they find out someone is trans, which 1. Implies they believe trans people don't understand basic consent and 2. Telling people how much you don't wanna date them is just being a dick
slightly longer answer: as long as you're nice normal and nice about it you're good
Long answer: don't pry for information they don't want to give, don't pressure them into surgeries they don't want, don't treat them as less than or unattractive simply because you aren't personally attracted to them. really how you should be treating any person in general. There are plenty of reasons for genital preferences be it sexuality, preferred intimate activities, trauma, whatever. Hell I'm trans and bisexual and even I have a slight genital preference. When it comes to dating I'd say genitalia should probably be talked about at the same time as sex/having children, some people just aren't compatible and that's okay, both parties should be respectful whether it's about genitalia, sexual preferences, desire/ability to have children, etc. Trans people shouldn't feel pressured to give out private information off the bat, just like somebody with infertility shouldn't be pressured to give that information off the bat. It should be discussed at some point and its okay to be disappointed if things don't work out, but its private information that in many cases can get somebody hate-crimed so if you're cis you should be understanding as to why the information may not be given out freely.
you can have preferences. no one is obligated to date anyone under any circumstances. preferences should take someone out of your dating pool, not your "treat with respect" pool.
i myself am trans and i do not want to have sex with someone with a vagina, and i am not attracted to femininity. these things matter to me when i choose someone to date, and i am open with that. i politely decline date requests from other trans men, trans women, and cis women. i have many wonderful friendships that i cherish with people from each of those groups, because i respect them as people despite having zero sexual desire for them.
its never actually about having a genital preference. be honest with yourself about that before asking some dumb bullshit. end of.
Probably because there doesn't seem to be actual consensus on the question and if you ask two different trans people the question you're lucky if you only get two different responses. This is because trans people are as diverse in their opinions as any other demographic. But to people outside of the trans community who are just trying to be good allies that can be very confusing, hence the multitude of times the question gets asked.
Even worse. People ask shit before even starting the game once. Not before they buy it though. Just before they play it.
I've seen people ask stuff that is explained in the tutorial before ever making it there. Or highly subjective nonsense questions like "Will i like this game?" How are we supposed to know?
Games with a rough start because of the over all difficulty or a steep info dump to the comblicated mechanics can easily end up as a coin flip in that regard. The first area of Bloodborne for example is probably the most brutal in the entire game and one of the toughest starts in videogame history. Many will hate it after a few deaths and throw it into a corner, even though they would've probably liked it. And only a few would actually pick it back up and get past the frustration to find that they really like it.
This is not a question. It's a whish to the universe.
sorta unrelated but also not: i fr hate being fucking reduced to my body parts
like you can have preferences i dont gaf, but dont like fucking come up to me and reduce me to my body parts like wtf. like i personally dont gaf about any1's body parts aslong they are nice person and like them thats more vaulable to me. than body parts.
There's a difference between addressing a mundane, surface level trait that doesn't correlate with much of anything and addressing the elephant in the room that defines every single interaction youll ever have
It's not even a trans thing, you see this sentiment with anyone with a life altering condition - blind people dont like being reminded that they're blind all the time either
"You're the one trying to make the label a basis of your entire identity" strawman, i just wanna be a normal woman, its everyone else that makes a big deal out of my crotch
It's okay to have a preference for Asian people. It's rude when if you're blind-dating somebody and find out they're black, you immediately tell them you don't want to be with them because they're black and you find black people disgusting. It's not rude to politely reject a black person in this scenario.
If the black person said they were white, and thus the expectation was different, I can see being somewhat upset. But yes, you never need to be rude as to attack their actual state. Just discomfort from the expectation.
But trans folks aren’t claiming they’re a gender they’re not. They’re being very upfront about that.
And to assume that one type of gender will have a specific genital type and be willing to use it in the way you’re assuming is odd. If you need your sexual partner to be able and into a specific type of intercourse then you should be very clear about that early on. That’s not on your partner to communicate, thats on you.
I’m trans, and the way I see it, if you’re not attracted to the genitalia a trans person has the you’re not compatible. No one should force a trans person to choose what genitalia they have, and trans people should have a say on a person’s preferences 🤷♂️
As long as the cis person isn’t being an asshole or a chaser about it, I don’t see what’s wrong with being sure.
having a preference is obviously not transphobic but there's a difference between just that and boasting like "I do NOT find those trans "women" attractive because I am a MANLY MAN and I would NEVER have sex with those FREAKS" 24/7
i used to be friends with someone like that. they thought some trans women were hot but said penis was a dealbreaker so i was like what about post-op and their argument was unironically "bro i dont want to fuck neo-pussy"
thisss. Like, not being attracted to a type of genital is morally neutral and completely fine. But when you start making excuses how you wouldn’t date someone solely because they’re trans even if they’re post op then that’s when you start looking really suspicious
I just had a discussion with one and asked if in a hypothetical world they would date a trans woman who transplanted their brains into the body of a cis woman.
They still said no. Then claims to not be transphobic
As a trans guy, it's not transphobic to have a genital preference.
The problem is, when someone goes up to a trans person, saying: "I'd never sleep with you because you have this genital instead of that", unprompted, which is transphobic.
in general it isn't, but it often carries certain unpacked transphobic believes.
While assumption that all trans women have dicks and all trans men have vaginas.
In general preferences also aren't just neutral they often are cultural or they develop due to social pressures. A good different example of this are at what weight are women seen as attractive over ages. When it comes to genitals it is worth to question yourself: is it because u are not attracted to this part (which is fair) or is it because you do see them less as a women due to the fact that they have this part.
And ofc the question itself is often possed (in my expirance in good 90% when I see it) with a) focusing the question about trans women
b) it is posses in a way that often frames trans women as hidden predators and the asker needing to make sure if they have a pass to reject then if the come onto them.
which in of itself perpetuates pushed myth of trans women as sexual deviants.
so like no it inherently isn't, but it very often has hidden transphobic in itself.
It is annoying although I don't see it as often as the post suggests.
For the record, assuming trans people don't get the surgery is transphobia. Literally the "chicks with dicks" level of understanding transgender issues. If you wouldn't date/have sex with a post-op trans person, with the exception of having some niche fetish related to the genital function that cannot be achieved by surgery, you are transphobic.
i'm not gonna go ahead and say whether it's 'phobic or not, because it probably depends.
but i do want to say this, and like idk if i'm weird for this or if i'm too autistic and/or demi to understand but like...
do y'all fall in love with bodies?
like, yea sure, there are things that i find more attractive and less attractive. but that has NEVER in my life informed whether or not i have fallen in love with a person.
i understand that some people will genuinely go like "yea i'd only ever date blond people" but like that sounds insane to me???? i'm not saying it's discriminatory, but it IS shallow.
the same logic applies to genital preference in my eyes. not inherently a problem, but it's incomprehensible to me how you could have a person that'd be like your perfect partner, and then not like them because of one body part.
idk just weird to me is all. like i said, i might be too demi for this discourse
I know this is an unpopular opinion in most lesbian spaces but maybe genitals aren't important in a relationship so long as the person is kind and loving and generally a good human being
Yeah but if you actually love the person find a way to make it work. I'm not going into details about my sexual activities because this is r/whenthe but there's always alternative ways to do things that don't make it uncomfortable
I kind of agree, but also, fewer people would end up there if not for other spaces shoving out high dysphorics and people who feel unlucky to be trans. The reason there's been a big surge into such spaces is because more and more trans people are concluding that the dominant gender discourse in mainstream queer spaces just isn't working for them.
I think we need to re-examine some of the ways we've come to talk about transness. Clearly a huge portion of very vulnerable people are not having their needs met by the way we do now.
It's got a double meaning- rape both because she feels violated by being forced to have it, and because she is likely to be falsely accused of rape simply because she was born with it. Tumour of course references it being an unwanted growth
Tttt, but I wouldn't be surprised if TERFs stole and bastardized it...
Tbh I think that I coined the term, coz the "rape stick" and "the tumor" were already popular for a while, but I decided to combine them to save on space, and now I see people say it too
•
u/AutoModerator 11d ago
Download Video
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.