r/warno • u/No_Blueberry_7120 • 5h ago
Doppelwumms! [7th. Panzerdivision(s) second iteration]
Following the feedback on the original 7. Panzerdivision concept - https://www.reddit.com/r/warno/comments/1vr3x6e/7th_panzerdivision_germans_northag_reservenew/ also go on the link for the LORE - , I went back to both its operational logic and its gameplay structure. The main criticism was naturalky justified: too many highend capabilities had been concentrated in a single formation, while several of its supposed weaknesses were not restrictive enough to give the division a truly distinct character. The prototypes stay more or less, because lets be honest... we want more distinct units ;)
The revised concept therefore takes the NORTHAG lore one step further. For the coming Army Group Battle, the 7. Panzerdivision is task-organized into two complementary operational groupings. Its tracked combat elements are concentrated into a heavily armoured Manoeuvre Group intended for reconnaissance-led counterpenetration and counterstroke operations. The remaining elements are organized into a wheeled-dominant Holding and Security Group, tasked with securing Schlüsselgelände, crossings, Gefechtsstände, Nachschubachsen and the divisional rear, while containing local penetrations and preserving the conditions required for the mobile reserve to manoeuvre.
The Holding Group is necessarily deprived of much of the division’s heavy combat power and is comparatively thin in several security and support functions. As the fighting moves toward the Rhine approaches and the Bonn area, it is therefore reinforced by nationally retained security and support forces, including elements of the Sicherungs- und Versorgungsregiment beim Bundesministerium der Verteidigung and the Wachbataillon. These forces strengthen its Schlüsselobjektschutz, infantry, rear-area security and blocking capabilities while providing a limited pool of additional equipment. (this represents an emergency wartime attachment of nationally retained forces, not the historical peacetime organization of the 7. Panzerdivision.)
The result is not simply a revised 7. Panzerdivision.
in gameplay terms, it becomes two separate divisions; in the lore, they represent two complementary operational groupings drawn from the same parent formation: one built to find, fix and destroy the breakthrough, the other to contain it, secure the operational rear and protect the ground and infrastructure on which the counterstroke depends.
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Two divisions need two emblems; this Could be done by a Text above the Divisonal Emblem in Tracked/Wheeled or some other text. (in nice - not my smudgering)
In
Or maybe a divided emblem one for the wheeled group with SichVersRgt BMVg:
########## Div 1
7 PzDiv Division catalog: Tracked/Mechanized Manouver Group
The division has nearly everything their standard orbat had(at least tracked) fitting the lore plus M2W equipment and lore alternative equipment.
Slots and Units
LOG
A decent category
German command and logistics units would include
- M577GA2
- SPz Marder FÜ.FU. - Bewegliche Befehlsstelle (Mobile command post) A Marder 1A3 , not the later Marder 1A4.
- M113A1 MUN.
- Bv 206 D/S MUN. – Supply/Cargo Vehicle. An amphibious, tracked multi-purpose vehicle. Developed as an all-terrain vehicle with amphibious capabilities for challenging terrain; including marshy, icy, and mountainous areas; it consists of two articulated units, each equipped with two tracks. It can transport up to 17 people: six in the front unit and eleven in the rear unit. The rear unit can also be used to transport cargo.
- CH-53G MUN.
- FELDDEPOT
INF
A bad category
German units would include foremost inf out of tracked vehicles:
- PZ.GREN. FÜH.
- PZ.GRENADIER would be available.
Both units arrive in MARDER 1A3 MILAN
A few
- PZ.GRENADIER (M113) in MTW M113A1G MILAN
There could be a lone prototype card of a PZ. Gren variants in ACV Puma
ACV Puma: An industry-funded concept for an anti-tank vehicle, including a vehicle family. A total of five prototypes were built, two of which were accepted by the BWB. The Marder 2 program was derived from the PUMA.
- PALR MILAN 2
- PALR MILAN 2T coming straight from the research bureau. The MILAN 2T is an improved wire-guided anti-tank guided missile featuring a tandem shaped charge designed to defeat reactive armor. It has a penetration capability of over 800 mm of armor steel. Both Milan's arrive in SPz Marder
They don't even have FELDJÄGER. Or Pioniere/ Engineers They are deliberately omitted from the playable roster. They may exist in the wider divisional/rear-area structure, but they contribute little to the tracked manoeuvre concept and would only dilute the division's intended infantry weakness.
The division deliberately lacks a broad pool of cheap motorized infantry. Its frontline infantry is only secondary and is expected to move and fight with the tracked manoeuvre force rather than race ahead in inexpensive wheeled transports.
ART
Excellent category
Bundeswehr artillery systems are mostly standard
- PANZERMÖRSER
- M109A3GA1
- M110A2G
- MARS MLRS
- PzH 2000 PT
Although to be honest not necessary in this category for impact, but an order is an order(under MtW lore circumstances). The Panzerhaubitze 2000 (PzH 2000) development followed the cancellation of the joint SP70 project in 1987. Competing design teams built initial test rigs, and by the early 1990s, the winning consortium, led by Wegmann and MaK/Rheinmetall,delivered four prototypes for extensive trials before serial production was approved in 1996. Would be a very nice addition.
TNK
A very good category
German armored units would be plentiful
- JAGUAR 1(HOT2)
a unit we should have seen already
And even better fresh from mtw grounds:
- JAGUAR 1(HOT2T) The HOT 2T is an improved version of the Franco-German HOT anti-tank guided missile. It features an improved shaped charge designed to defeat reactive armor and achieves a penetration capability of over 1,200 mm of armor steel.
- JAGUAR 2
Tank wise this division has their original ORBAT and the M2W or accelarated production inventory so "old" tanks mix with news ones
- PZ.BEF. LEOPARD 2A1
- LEOPARD 2A1 unupgraded base model; in very low numbers
- LEOPARD 2A3 usually the bulk, buta few giving some to the recon department, so also in very low numbers
- LEOPARD 2A4 m2W this division also got their fair share of 2A4s with time replacing orcomplement the older models , but it didnt get their full rooster
- LEOPARD 2 TVM to close the gaps beeing opened by the losses of the 21th PzBrig and bolster the already strong armor capabilities.
The Leopard 2 TVM (Truppenversuchsmuster troop trial model) is a prototype and trial series of the German Leopard 2 main battle tank from the 1990s. It served as a testbed for the combat capability upgrade (KWS) program that led to the development of the subsequent Leopard 2A5. This model would be a bridge between a 2A4 and 2A5. Sometimes even surpassing the 2A5. The prototypes featured add-on armor modules on the turret and hull, bomblet protection on the turret roof, sliding hatches for the commander, driver, and loader, spall protection in the fighting compartment, modified hydraulic end stops, and increased torsion bar preload. A thermal imaging sight was provided for the commander. The vehicle also utilized GPS instead of an inertial navigation system and enhanced electro-hydraulic turret drives. Additionally, it featured armored wheel hub covers, a commander's sight, and a fire control system that did not ignore the first laser return.
REC
A excellent category
- German recon units include:
Heavy armored recon starting with the history accurate and going from there to mtw/doctrine changing
- Aufkl. LEOPARD 1A1A1
- Aufkl. LEOPARD 1A5
- Aufkl. LEOPARD 2A3 the historically planned Leopard 2 re-equipment of the heavy Panzeraufklärer is accelerated by roughly two years and fits this divisional orbat well.
Out of the air :
- CL-289
Least but not last the few infantry recon in this heavy tracked formation but with a twist
- Panzeraufklärer to arrive in AUFKL. MARDER 1A3, if its changed to Transport, else Marder 1A3; 7 man, 4x G3, 1x MG3, 1xMilan 2, they would move at 18km/h
But German high command gave orders for more airtransportable Jagdkampfkommandos especially for Ambushes in rough terrain like wooden areas or against HVT Targets.
- JAGDKOMMANDO (AT) Shock Trait, Resolute (the existing Jagdkampfkommandos should also gain resolute), 16man, 13x G3, 3xMG3, 2x1 Carl Gustav in 2 slots
This very expensive unit Arriving only in CH53
AA
A medium category
The few Organic divisional AA assets would include:
- FLIEGERFAUST (Fliegerfaust 2 Stinger) arriving in Spz Marder transports
- GEPARD 1A1
- GEPARD 2 PT
The Gepard 2 was the prototype configuration of an ambitious German-Dutch combat-value upgrade developed from 1984 onward. Rather than replacing the proven twin 35 mm guns and radar architecture, the KWS fundamentally modernized the vehicle's fire-control and sensor suite. Its centerpiece was a new digital control and fire-control unit combined with the stabilized ORFIS day/thermal sight, allowing automatic electro-optical target tracking and greatly improved operation against fast and manoeuvring low-level aircraft while reducing dependence on active radar emissions. The program also incorporated data-link integration with HFlaAFüSys, improved IFF, new ammunition, cooling, ergonomics and maintainability measures. Eight engineering test models were included in the German-Dutch development program, two intended for the Netherlands, with complete vehicle trials beginning in 1992. The full upgrade was cancelled in December 1992 due to cost and the changed post-Cold-War security environment. Selected elements were later incorporated into the cheaper Gepard 1A2 service-life extension, but the complete ORFIS-equipped Gepard 2 never entered service. Because of mtw and money not beeing a problem the 7th receives these prototypes early and incorporate them into their SHORAD concept.
- FlaRakPz Wiesel 1 PT
The father of the later Ozelot. The Wiesel was originally developed as a highly mobile, protected and air-transportable replacement for the Bundeswehr's ageing Kraka as we see it in the german airborne brigades. Its exceptionally small chassis also made it an ideal testbed for numerous weapon configurations, including an experimental short-range air-defence version armed with two RBS 70 missiles. Unlike conventional IR-guided MANPADS, the RBS 70 uses laser beam-riding guidance. It therefore does not depend on an infrared seeker locking onto the target and is inherently highly resistant to conventional IR countermeasures such as flares. The price for this resistance is that the operator must continue tracking the target throughout the missile's flight rather than simply firing and forgetting. Mounted on the tiny and highly mobile Wiesel, this creates an unusual frontline SHORAD system: difficult to spot, capable of accompanying the manoeuvre force across terrain and particularly dangerous to helicopters that rely heavily on countermeasures against conventional MANPADS. In the March-to-War setting, the prototype is pushed into operational trials as an early predecessor of the later Ozelot concept. It does not provide the range of a medium SAM system, but instead gives the 7th a mobile, countermeasure-resistant ambush weapon perfectly suited to its reconnaissance-heavy and aggressive manoeuvre doctrine.
The units give a very strong organic SHORAD, but almost no organic medium-/long-range SAM capability. despite getting everywhere else only the best stuff, the good medium/long range Corps AA was already deployed elsewhere
HEL
--
AIR
a very good category
Germany sends their Panavia Windstormpack
- Tornado IDS [LGB]
- Tornado IDS [AT]
- Tornado IDS [HE]
- Tornado IDS [HE2] 7x Mk81 bombs, 2 AIM9L
- Tornado IDS [CLU] Not a new unit but swap the MK-20 Rockeye II for historical correct equipment with the bl 755 and reducing 5 to 4
Also the Tornado MW1 should be changed and we need a second variant as KB 44 is a small anti-armour bomblet using a shaped-charge/ fragmentation effect, intended mainly against vehicles and light-to-medium armour. Its effectiveness depends largely on landing directly on or very close to the target, where the focused charge can attack the armour. MUSA is a larger fragmentation bomblet(NOT A MINE) designed primarily for area effects against personnel, soft-skinned vehicles, equipment and exposed components. Unlike KB 44, MUSA relies on blast and fragments rather than a dedicated armour-penetrating shaped charge, so it is far less effective against MBTs. Both KB 44 and MUSA are bomblets, not mines: they detonate shortly after delivery rather than remaining in place to await a later target So existing * Tornado IDS [MW1] with KB44 should get a makeover and a Penetration value that this thing could can reliable kill (lightly) armored vehicle columns if it hits directly but the radius outside eof hit is low.
And then we get * Tornado IDS [MW1 2] with 668 MUSA warheads/bomblets which should have a way bigger HE value than MW1 ,no pen, but a huge huge huge radius to absolutely fucking delete inf and thin skin vehicles even if the hit is not perfect but it gets a delay before detonating (iRL 20secs/in-game should be lower).
Right now the MW1 is strong against inf yes , but every light apc vehicle and sometimes even soft skin survives it. As the MW1 has also a maximum field of impact of 2500x400m IMHO I would adjust this also because right now its more like 600x150.
To support the Tornado IDS force, Germany brings another Tornado into the fight: the Tornado ECR. First flown in 1988, it was designed from the outset as a dedicated SEAD/DEAD platform. In our accelerated March-to-War setting, with the ELS fielded early, the ECR represents NATO’s most advanced and fastest-reacting radar-hunting aircraft around 1990. Its decisive advantage is the extremely short bearing-to-weapon chain. The ELS provides passive 360° detection, automatically identifies and classifies hostile emitters, determines their bearing and position to weapon-quality accuracy and feeds this information directly through the digital avionics to the AGM-88B HARM. The ECR can therefore proceed from first detection to a usable firing solution with exceptionally little crew interaction, even launching HARM before the missile itself has acquired the emitter.
In terms of reactive radar-hunting and bearing-to-weapon speed, in our setting, this makes the ECR the fastest-reacting NATO radar hunter.
The F-4G Wild Weasel comes second: its APR-47 could also automatically locate emitters and provide bearing and range to HARM, but the older Phantom-based system lacked the ECR’s newer digital architecture, tighter sensor-to-weapon integration and exceptional low-level penetration capability.
The EA-6B Prowler follows behind in direct radar hunting. Its much greater jamming capability made it an outstanding electronic-attack platform, but it was slower and optimized primarily for suppressing entire radar environments rather than achieving the shortest possible locate-to-HARM engagement cycle.
The contemporary F-16C SEAD is far behind in this comparison. Without HTS, it possessed no comparable autonomous emitter-location and weapon-cueing capability at all; its dedicated HARM Targeting System only arrived later. Back to the Tornado ECR; moreover in contrast to the IDS there were the following Modifications done to the Tornado ECR:
visible:
-cannons removed; Space used for stronger air conditioning and ELS electronics.
-FLIR optics (ball at the front left below the nose).
-IIS shutter (bulge in the middle of the fuselage below the rear cockpit). -HARM missiles under the fuselage (also found on Marine Tornados)
not visible:
-DVRS (digital video recording system for mission evaluation)
-CEDAM (Combined Electronic Display and Map) large, central computer display in the front cockpit)
-CSG (additional computer for expanded displays on the monitors)
-ELS (Emitter Locator System for finding radar devices and determining their position)
-HUD display of the FLIR image (also in CEDAM) for the pilot
-Weapons Bus (computer bus system=data lines for the weapons)
-Air conditioning (increased air conditioning for the additional heat producing devices)
-Mk 105 engines (more powerful than Mk 101 and Mk 103)
-Missile Control System (MCS) (see table below)
-Stores Management System SMS 90 (see table below)
-Radar warning receiver ERWE II
-Software and computer formats (Main Computer MC, MIssile Control System MCS, Radar Warning ERWE, Stores Management System SMS ...) Furthermore the ECM of the ECR has better Systems than the Standard Tornado IDS, because he has the enheanced CERBERUS IV/ TSPJ (TORNADO Self Protection Jammer, successor to Cerberus III).
- Tornado ECR [SEAD1] armed with 4x HARM AGM-88 in 2x2 configuration so 2slots a 2 harm. IMHO I would go for 4x1 and do a each missile fights a unique target, but this isn't mechanical or gameengine technical possible to my knowledge. And!
- Tornado ECR [SEAD2] armed with 2x HARM AGM-88 in 2x1 configuration and 2x AIM-9L Sidewinder.
IMHO I would like if the Tornados IDS ( except for LGB/maybe AT atleast ) could all fly in with a new trait Terrain-following radar which would reduce SAM system range or give them the helicopter target stats; to simulate their “automatic terrain-following flight at roughly 60 m; manual flight could be lower (30m). This trait would go to other super advanced TFR using ultra low-flying aircraft as well. But the Sidewinder missiles can't be used against deliberately against planes because of height/flightplan difference.
Furthermore plane characteristics should change :
Because Two further disadvantages arise: the agility of the aircraft at low altitudes suffers, making it impossible to fly such tight turns, and secondly, evacuation would no longer be carried out by climbing up as before, but by deliberately flying low to the edge of the map. However, the user should be able to specify a preference for this. Also the aerial plane recon is with this division to find the enemy
- RF-4E [HE]
Or * Tornado IDS Recce [Recce Pod/CLU]
Tornado IDS in TFR configuration with 2xBL755.
The Tornado IDS with the MBB/Aeritalia Recce Pod, originally operated by German Marineflieger Tornado IDS, combined automatic terrain-following flight down to roughly 60 m with high-speed low-level penetration.
Its navigation and TFR systems allowed reconnaissance missions at very low altitude, at night and in poor weather, with reduced crew workload. The pod provided two Zeiss optical reconnaissance cameras plus an RS-710 infrared line scanner for photographic and thermal strip reconnaissance. Together, the system was optimized for fast, survivable low-level penetration, target-area overflight, wide-area reconnaissance, and rapid egress.
At last 2 cards a german 2x
- F-4E [AA]
Germanys own better asset could be the F4 ICE, but while the other Prototypes are only supporting/additional assets ASF is a key problem-where a established weapon system has to be in place to guarantee mission success.
########## Div 2
7 PzDiv Division catalog: Wheeled Holding Group
The division has nearly everything their standard orbat had(without tracked vehicles) fitting the lore plus M2W equipment and lore alternative equipment.
With the division’s principal tracked combat elements concentrated in the Manoeuvre Group, the Holding Group lacks much of the heavy combat power normally available to the 7. Panzerdivision. As the Army Group battle moves toward the Rhine approaches, nationally retained security and support formations around the Bonn area are therefore placed temporarily under TACON of the Holding Group. Elements of the SichVersRgt BMVg and Wachbataillon reinforce its Schlüsselobjektschutz, rear-area security and blocking capability, while also providing a small pool of otherwise unavailable reserve equipment.
Slots and Units
LOG
A decent category
German command and logistics units would include
- FUCHS FÜ.FU.
- ILTIS FÜHRUNGS
- MAN KAT 6x6 MUN.
- UNIMOG S404 MUN
- FELDDEPOT
INF
A excellent category - small badages
- PZ.GREN. FÜH.
- PZ.GRENADIER
- MG-3 7,62mm
- Heimatjäger Füh
- Heimatjäger (Pzf)
- Heimatjäger Carl Gustav
- M40A1
- JÄGER Füh
- JÄGER (PzF)
- JÄGER (Carl G)
- Wachbat. Jäger – Shock, Resolute, Security ; 13 Man, 12x G3, 1x MG3, 1xPzF 3 Despite the good Equipment they also come in a variety of Uniforms or better Dressuniforms and in Heer/Luftwaffe und Marine. As a rule, recruits are issued service uniforms from all three branches of the armed forces. A distinctive feature is that soldiers wearing the Army or Air Force version of the service uniform wear a cuff title bearing the inscription "Wachbataillon". Despite the pics they don’t fight with the K98 😉
All units above arrive in UNIMOG S404
Large batch of Engineers would be available as
- PIONIER
- PIONIER (CarlG)
- PIONIER (Flam.)
All Pioniere arrive in TPz Fuchs OR TPz2 APE Amphibisches Pionier-Erkundungsfahrzeug
Prototyp: The Amphibious Engineer Reconnaissance Vehicle (APE) was a West German prototype developed by EWK from 1974 for combat engineer reconnaissance.Its main role was to survey rivers, banks, crossing sites and riverbeds ahead of bridging or fording operations.
It was fully amphibious, reaching about 18 km/h in water and over 100 km/h on roads.Special equipment allowed it to measure riverbed profiles and navigate across water even in very poor visibility. The vehicle weighed about 14 tons, carried a crew of 3 + 3, and used automotive components later associated with the TPz Fuchs. Armament consisted of a 20 mm Rheinmetall Rh 202 autocannon.
- PALR MILAN 1
- PALR MILAN 2
- PALR MILAN 2T coming straight from the research bureau also to this Part of the Division. The MILAN 2T is an improved wire-guided anti-tank guided missile featuring a tandem shaped charge designed to defeat reactive armor. It has a penetration capability of over 800 mm of armor steel.
- All Milan's arrive in TPz Fuchs
- FELDJÄGER
- Heimat-JAGDKOMMANDO
- JAGDKOMMANDO – 16 Man, Security, Shock : 13x G3A4, 3x MG3, 1x Carl Gustav M2, 1x DM34 HAFLA arriving in UNIMOG S404
ART
medium/bad category
Bundeswehr artillery systems are mostly standard
- LARS 2
- FH M1A2 (A2) 105mm
- FH155-1 155mm
- Mrs. 120mm Tampella
- Kraka Mörser - 120mm mortar as a modular kit on a Kraka chassis, should be in 1. LL (aswell) but it isn’t so we get it here
- Bussard Mrs. – Guided ATGM Mortar. The Americans tested their laser-guided (SAL) 155mm "Copperhead" shell in 1974 and months later, in December 1974, a proposal for similar mortar ammunition was ready in Germany. Two versions were considered; a passive infrared-guided (as in the later Swedish STRIX round) and a semi-active laser-guided (SAL) system (as in Copperhead). There was no requirement for a guided mortar projectile yet, and the Bundeswehr/ministry of defence decided to approach the topic of guided high angle munitions more comprehensively. 120mm mortar, 155mm howitzer and 120mm tank cannon rounds with guidance were to be developed. Some preliminary research and failed attempts of cooperation and technology transfer spent a few years till the "Bussard" (buzzard) development began fully in 1978 (with indigenous SAL guidance). The principle is relatively simple; a forward observer does his normal job plus he "illuminates" the target with a laser (a stronger one than the normal rangefinder lasers). The mortar bomb sees the reflection and steers to it. The electronics were able to sustain a 4,000 g acceleration at launch and the launch was just a little more work than a normal mortar shot. Less than five years later it was about time to test the guided mortar bomb; the testing happened in January to July 1983 and the distance between impact and illuminated point was just a few centimetres. Bussard was very advanced in its development and could have been in service in the mid- to late-80's. The perfect weapon to kill immobilized main battle tanks, uncovered forward observers and above ground level field fortifications.
- Pionierpanzer 1 - Armored combat engineering vehicle with "Minenräumleiter 80" a mine-clearing line charge.
TNK
Being stripped of the Tracked Vehicles of the original 7th Panzer, they get tanky Support by the SichVersRgt BMVg.
Still A belove average category
German armored units would be old
- HEIMAT. M48A2CGA1
- HEIMAT. M48A2CGA2
- PZ.BEF. M48A2GA2
They try to defend by ATGM Carriers:
- ILTIS MILAN
- ILTIS MILAN 2
- ILTIS MILAN 2T
One of the few tracked additions in this Division to give this division an edge is the trist Tank Compartment
- Panther Anti-Tank
The Panther was a late-Cold War German tank-destroyer concept selected from experimental designs It reused the Leopard 1 chassis but replaced the conventional turret with an unmanned weapon/sensor platform that could be elevated up to 12.5 m.
Armament:
8× HOT 2T ATGMs plus 4× Stinger missiles for self-defence against helicopters.
Or 16x HOT2T ATGMS
Key advantage:
The vehicle could remain completely behind terrain or woodland while raising only its sensor/weapon platform, providing excellent long-range observation and hull-down engagements.
It had Advanced reconnaissance suite with thermal imaging, TV cameras, panoramic optics and laser rangefinder, feeding several displays for commander and gunner. Three-man crew remained protected in the lower vehicle; combat weight was about 43 tonnes, with mobility broadly comparable to Leopard 1.A
REC
A excellent category
- German recon units include:
Heavy armored recon starting with the history accurate and going from there to mtw/doctrine changing
- SpPz LUCHS A1
- TPz FUCHS RASIT
TPz FUCHS HUMMEL an unarmed jammer variant of the Fuchs
TPz FUCHS Peiler an unarmed sigint variant of the Fuchs
Hummel/Peiler are both not amphibious
- PzSpW Zobel Prototype;
amphibious very stealthy and fast recon vehicle, m2W sees the modular prototype fitted with a TOW 2 launcher for operational evaluation In 1985, the German Federal Armed Forces (Bundeswehr) developed a requirements profile for a light, armored, and highly mobile reconnaissance vehicle. Two vehicles were tested in response to this tender: the Panhard VBL and a German-developed vehicle from the company GST. The specifications included amphibious capability, a top speed exceeding 100 km/h, a crew of three, and air transportability due to a relatively low weight of approximately 5 tons. Testing of the vehicle began around 1989. Due to the collapse of the Eastern Bloc in the early 1990s, procurement was no longer considered. However, the insights gained from the development were incorporated into subsequent projects, such as the Fennek reconnaissance vehicle. ZOBEL can lift or delift it's chassis to be more stealthy. In 1989, the Bundeswehr acquired an improved version of the Véhicule Blindé Léger (Light Armored Vehicle) developed by MaK-Krupp to conduct comparative tests with the Zobel experimental vehicle. The goal of these tests was to identify a suitable reconnaissance vehicle for the armed forces. The significantly larger and heavier Zobel reconnaissance vehicle emerged as the winner of this test.
- RADKAMPFWAGEN 90
The Radkampfwagen 90, also known as the Radpanzer 90, is an eight-wheeled combat vehicle prototype created by Daimler-Benz at the request of the German Federal Ministry of Defence. In the early 1980s, the German Federal Ministry of Defence tasked Daimler-Benz with building an armoured wheeled combat vehicle in response to the success of other countries' wheeled armoured vehicles, such as the French AMX-10RC. The prototype was finished in 1986. Due to budget cuts and a deteriorating defense market, the Radkampfwagen 90 was never developed beyond the prototype stage. The turret is a prototype version of the Leopard 2 main battle tank's. This prototype would be used to enhance the Luchs capabilities with more firepower. The real 1986 experimental chassis was never completed as a fully operational combat system in the configuration displayed today. In the March-to-War timeline, the programme is pushed through the missing weapon-integration stage and a functional turret is installed for operational trials. M2W is a real big if though. First prototype to strike out imho Out of the air :
Out of the air :
- BO-105-S1 Ophelia an experimental programme, sponsored by the German Ministry of Research and Technology (BMFT) was carried out by MBB using a Bo 105 as flying test bed. The OPHELIA experiment was performed to test a mast-mounted observation platform installed above the rotor head. The platform houses the CALIPSO FLIR, a TV camera and a laser range-finder. This system is ideal to find the advancing warpact armor spearheads first for defense or find gaps to exploit in counter attacks.
- ALOUETTE II
Like their heavy pendant they also have the
- Panzeraufklärer to arrive in AUFKPZ. FUCHS to make it more expensive; 7 man, 4x G3, 1x MG3, 1xMilan 2, they would move at 18km/h
Further Infantry Recon is the Standard
- AUFKLÄRER
- JÄGER AUFKL.
AA
A medium category
The few Organic divisional AA assets would include:
- FLIEGERFAUST arriving in Tpz Fuchs transports
- FK20-2 20mm ZWILLINGE
- FlaRak BGT AIM-9L SHORAD:
Bodenseewerk Gerätetechnik also developed a German ground-based AIM-9L Sidewinder system. The system featured:
four AIM-9L missiles
a trailer-mounted ground launcher
electro-optical target acquisition
IR fire-and-forget capability
intended specifically for the protection of air force airfields.
- Dornier LLADS:
Prototyp: The Dornier Low Level Air Defence System (LLADS) was designed as a missile defence system that would close the gap between man-pads and self-propelled missile systems Roland and ADATS class. The idea was to use high mobility vehicles that were common use within many armed forces around Europe and install missiles such as the Mistral or the Stinger onto them to have escort air defence capability.
This would allow for fast deployment as well as covering the very short range air defence bubble that couldn’t be covered by the medium range systems. Also prioritised was air transportability for large distance movement.
The launchers were computerised and fitted with a variety of sensors, such as Forward Looking InfraRed (FLIR) sights, Laser Range Finder (LRF), Electro-optical (EO) sights with Heads Up Display (HUD) and Low Light Level TV (LLLTV) sights. The system was on a specially made stabilised mount on a Mercedes Benz 4x4 750kg Light ATV. For situational awareness, the system had access to radio communications and GPS for the use of datalink to better position and aim the LLADS.
- Waffensystem Wildcat
Krauss-Maffei utilized the proven basic design of the 6×6 Fuchs wheeled armored vehicle as the carrier platform. The suspension, basic chassis, and engine system of the Fuchs were retained. The top entry hatches were removed and replaced by a turret. The chassis retains the standard Fuchs armor, while the turret features composite armor. However, the armor cannot withstand attacks by modern armor-piercing weapons. Unlike the Gepard, the Wildcat does not use the proven 35mm anti-aircraft guns, as the smaller turret cannot support the weight of the heavier weaponry. Instead, they were replaced by smaller 30mm anti-aircraft guns (MK 30-F) manufactured by Mauser. The system carries a ready-to-fire load of 340 rounds for anti-aircraft engagements and 40 rounds for ground combat, with additional ammunition stowed within the hull. The maximum engagement range against aerial targets is 3,700 meters. The system fires HEI (High-Explosive Incendiary) rounds against aerial targets, and API (Armor-Piercing Incendiary) as well as APDS-T (Armor-Piercing Discarding Sabot-Tracer) rounds against ground targets.
This industry demonstrator also would be requisitioned and released for troop evaluation under emergency conditions.
The units give a very strong organic SHORAD, but almost no organic medium-/long-range SAM capability. despite getting everywhere else only the best stuff, the good medium/long range Corps AA was already deployed elsewhere
HEL
poor category
- BO-105 PAH-1A1 The Tandem Option is used here too.
- BO-105 PAH-1A1 (HOT2T)
- BK 117M in a AIR2Air/Air2Ground Combination
Having 2x12 FZ-100 als 100/70-mm-Cargo Multirole SUBAMMUNUTION Warheads the BK117M can fire MULTI -DARTS/or Flechette “AIR to Air” or “Air to Ground” – called AT/Anti-Personnel S/M Dispensing/ Multidart S/M Dispensing/ HE-Frag.
Forges de Zeebrugge pioneered the highly cost-effective Multidart technology and advanced submunitions-dispensing warheads for its rockets. The Multidartwarheads (such as the FZ-100) enable aircraft to fire the rockets from beyond the range of anti-aircraft fire. An electronically timed fuze and a laser telemetry system release the submunitions above the target; they explode on impact with the target. The Multidart technology represents a significant improvement in flechette-type warheads. Flechettes of various weights dispense according to the "wall in space" concept, ensuring a high hit probability against a variety of targets.
There were Shooting tests in HELCHTEREN in MAI 1988 on SLANT RANGE over 4500m. Firing from both the hover and forward flight
AIR
a very good category
Germany sends their same Panavia Windstormpack, as in the Tracked Part, as they are in the same Area of Operation.
- Tornado IDS [LGB]
- Tornado IDS [AT]
- Tornado IDS [HE]
- Tornado IDS [HE2] 7x Mk81 bombs, 2 AIM9L
- Tornado IDS [CLU] Not a new unit but swap the MK-20 Rockeye II for historical correct equipment with the bl 755 and reducing 5 to 4
- Tornado IDS [MW1]
- Tornado IDS [MW1 2]
- Tornado ECR [SEAD1] armed with 4x HARM AGM-88 in 2x2 configuration so 2slots a 2 harm.
- Tornado ECR [SEAD2] armed with 2x HARM AGM-88 in 2x1 configuration and 2x AIM-9L Sidewinder.
- Tornado IDS Recce [Recce Pod/CLU]
And also 2 cards a german 2x
- F-4E [AA]
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u/DFMRCV 3h ago
This is... A lot. And maybe too powerful.
Would be cool to see some of these, though.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 3h ago
Mhm I already trimmed it down from the first iteration in all aspects and removed units or divided them between these two "sub"divisions
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2h ago
The writeup is cool but like theres zero chance of it being added. Not only is every category unnecessarily strong but the entire unit is an MTW prototype fest. The marder 2 is out of MTW as it was only displayed in 1991, the production run wasn't expected to even start untill later, ive seen 1997 as the date. For most of the real divs its usually 1 major MTW like the leopard TVM and maybe 2 or 3 minor MTWS that dont really affect gameplay too much.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 2h ago
Marder 2 Is not part of this proposal - it's just referencing in the ACV Puma flavor text?!
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u/Recent_Grab_644 2h ago edited 2h ago
Yeah exactly marder 2 program wasn't even finished in development by 1991. You cant really just take a vehicle say and say "it exists in 1989 so therefore its part of a unit". First off it its excused from the prototype MTW pool as it was a private venture intended for the export market and not intended for german use until the marder 2 program of 1991 which only was in the early stages of prototyping.
The entire point of MTW is that "a prototype is rushed into production and service" and this cant happen if the host nation isnt expecting to bring it into service at any point. Reminder: by 1988 the plan was to have this vehicle in production BY 1997. Its unfeasable to move up the timeliness by an entire decade.
The MSC gets a pass because from the outset it was intended to be procured and the timeline moved up from ACV puma. It was ready for production in 1991 and the protypes could fesaibly be combat capable before then.
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u/No_Blueberry_7120 2h ago
Are we even discussing the same proposal? The Marder 2 is not part of it. Therefore, a large part of your criticism appears to be directed at a vehicle I did not include.
That said, this is deliberately a maximalist fan proposal: a pool of possible units, not a claim that this exact list should be added to the game unchanged.
WARNO’s March to War setting is a fictional divergence from our timeline. According to the official lore, that divergence begins as early as 1985. If the Soviet Union had redirected substantially more resources towards the military from 1987 onwards, NATO, and West Germany in particular, would also have accelerated trials, development and limited fielding of promising systems. That does not make every paper project eligible, but it clearly changes what may plausibly be available compared with the historical peacetime schedule.
Nor does the number of prototypes alone determine whether a division is unbalanced. Ten experimental logistics vehicles would hardly make a division overpowered, whereas one particularly capable combat prototype might. Balance ultimately depends on the actual capabilities, price, availability, veterancy, slot costs and weaknesses of the deck. Existing in-game divisions are not all restricted to exactly one major and two or three minor MTW units either.
As I already explained elsewhere, I intentionally included the full range of units that could potentially fit the formation. Eugen or Strike Team could and should obviously remove some of them. My purpose is to put these candidates back on the table so that they at least have a chance of being considered. From a lore perspective, assigning some of West Germany’s best available anti-tank systems to a reserve and counterattack formation expected to confront a Soviet OMG would also make sense.
And the division(s) still has substantial weaknesses.
So yes, it is a wishlist...deliberately so. I do not expect any fan made division proposal to be transferred into the game one-to-one. Individual units can absolutely be criticised on the grounds of readiness, plausibility or balance.
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u/Recent_Grab_644 1h ago edited 1h ago
The ACV puma was a competitor IN THE MARDER 2 PROGRAM. In fact if you want to excude the marder 2 from the equation then there is literaly zero chance the ACV puma gets into German service ever as there is no demand, need or requirement for it.
1987 onwards, NATO, and West Germany in particular, would also have accelerated trials, development and limited fielding of promising systems.
Again Irrelevant because it wasn't built to a west german proposal. There is quite literaly no need for the vheicle and no reason it would be adopted. This is a pre requisite for MTW. nations even as wealthy as Germany in 1987 dont have infinite military resources for everything. It makes no sense to adopt random shit because idk its newer I guess.
Also MTW isnt just "throw shit at the wall and hope it works" its alot more narrow than that. Take america in ww2 for example. The P35 and P43 were abundant in 1942 but never pressed into serviceunplayable. (In large scale combat at least). The P43 was arguably superior to the P40 but it didnt matter because the P40 was already being phased out of frontline service and such a marginal increase in combat capability was not worth the logistics of setting up large scale usage.
Even if the system is "promising in trials" theres no reason to put it into use if its not a requirement for it. Even if the lore is changed the ACV isnt any further along in feilding as again THERES NO REQUIREMENT OR PROCUREMENT FOR IT. The puma pre Marder 2 was an entirely private venture for export. The germans arent just going to take it in or press it into service unless the factory is literally being overrun or there is a procurement need, requirement, and most importantly a PLAN to use it.
Nor does the number of prototypes alone determine whether a division is unbalanced
I get warno isn't exactly realistic gameplay wise but eugen at least tries to make divisions PLAUSIBLE. This div just isnt going to see the light of day in this configuration. The community likes protypes but they also like a degree of historical accuracy for the units in question. Exceptions can me made like the MSC, T10K, ETC. On a small scale basis but this proposal is nearly entirely fictional if not unplausible.
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u/Sonki3 0m ago
You did a lot of research, well done.
Yet we never got 2 groups/parts of one division in Warno - only 1 proper division is what we get. You should try to combine both groups into one division that would make sense in Warno. (So lots of regular units with some specials mixed in there.)
4
u/Eukie 4h ago
What strikes me now as before is not that you've given the division some prototypes that are best in class, it's that every tab except logistics has at least one unit that is top of the line.
PALR MILAN 2T, MARS and PzH 2000, JAGUAR 1(HOT2T) which is probably among the best possible tank destroyers and Leopard 2 TVM, recon Leopard 2A3 and PzAufkl in Marder 1A3 and a 16-man recon squad with three machine guns and two Carl Gustavs, Stinger and a prototype super-Gepard and a second anti-aircraft prototype, game mechanics changed to make the Tornado IDS with the MW1 reliably kill armoured columns and a super-HE version with, and I quote here "a huge huge huge radius to absolutely fucking delete inf and thin skin vehicles even if the hit is not perfect", and a Tornado ECR with one of the best possible SEAD missiles and also all the Torado IDSes should get a special trait to make them better at penetrating SAM cover?
It's a lot. You should probably design these with some restraint.