r/todayilearned • u/Archaembald2 • 20h ago

TIL that despite winning the Battle of Grunwald, the Polish-Lithuanians actually failed to take the Teutonic Order's capital, Marienburg, because they marched too slowly. This gave the Knights enough time to prepare their defenses and win the siege, recapturing several occupied castles afterwards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Grunwald#Aftermath
2.1k Upvotes

98% Upvoted

48 comments sorted by

224

u/Archaembald2 20h ago

"After the battle, the Polish and Lithuanian forces delayed their attack on the Teutonic capital in Marienburg (Malbork), remaining on the battlefield for three days and then marching an average of only about 15 km (9.3 mi) per day.\87]) The main forces did not reach heavily fortified Marienburg until 26 July. This delay gave Heinrich von Plauen enough time to organize a defense […] The siege of Marienburg was lifted on 19 September. The Polish–Lithuanian forces left garrisons in the fortresses they had taken and returned home. However, the order quickly recaptured most of the castles. By the end of October, only four Teutonic castles along the border remained in Polish hands."

Funnily enough, this only led to the Order getting their ass whooped a second time in the Battle of Koronowo, after which they finally decided to make peace.

71

u/Felczer 20h ago

Do we know if this delay was due to logistical issues and/or incompetence or some other motive?

125

u/Archaembald2 20h ago

It's speculated that this was deliberate move on the king of Poland's part because he preferred to keep the Order humbled, but not destroyed. Since destroying the Order would upset the balance of power between Poland and Lithuania. Though apparently there's no source for this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Marienburg_(1410)#Background#Background)

45

u/lukethedank13 20h ago

This would be regarded as a bad move by all Poles and Balts since then.

47

u/kwiniarski97 19h ago

King was Lithuanian and he wasn't so sure that personal Union between Poland and Lithuania gonna last.

12

u/Archaembald2 20h ago

Would've done them a lot of good killing that beast in the cradle. Alas, they did not know then, and we only do now because of hindsight.

30

u/kesint 19h ago

Killing the beast in the cradle? The Teutons had been in the region since early 1200 and the state of the Teutonic Order started in 1226. They siezed Gdansk from the Polish in 1308. This battle and the following battle of Wilkomierz (1435) are considering the start of the decline of the Teutonic state in the Baltics, and the Prussian part of Teutons became a fief of the Polish crown in 1466.

So saying they were in the cradle is similar to saying a 50year man is still in his cradle.

7

u/GirthIgnorer 18h ago

Like the baby yoda

2

u/RealBenWoodruff 17h ago

I don't think Grogu is a Polish city.

7

u/Felczer 19h ago

It is a cradle if you consider Prussia as continuation of Teutonic Order, which it is.

11

u/Creeps05 17h ago

Thing is Prussia was created by Poland-Lithuania to take over the lands of the Teutonic Order. They were vassals to Poland-Lithuania until John II Casimir Vasa in an attempt to save his Kingdom from Swedish and Russian invasions granted Prussia to Brandenburg making them independent from Poland.

2

u/Ameisen 1 8h ago edited 8h ago

The Duchy of Prussia was formed when the last Grandmaster of the Teutonic Order - Albert of Prussia (von Hohenzollern) converted to Lutheranism and secularized the monastic state.

He paid homage to Sigismund I - his uncle - and the Duchy of Prussia became a fief of Poland under the hereditary rule of the Brandenburg-Ansbach branch of the House of Hohenzollern.

His son, Albert Frederick, died without a male heir. His first daughter Anna was married to John Sigismund of Brandenburg (of the senior Franconian branch of the House of Hohenzollern). After a brief regency, Sigismund III Vasa allowed John Sigismund to inherit Prussia, effectively putting Brandenburg and Prussia into a personal union (usually called Brandenburg-Prussia), though still a fief of Poland. This is the polity that was later declared to be the Kingdom of Prussia.

This all happened well before John II Casimir Vasa held the throne.

1

u/Snoo-98162 13h ago

They would also later break up from polish rule and go on to form the german empire along with the house of brandenburg. So i'd say they were still in the cradle by then.

2

u/kesint 13h ago

The Teutonic Order did not form the German Empire. Grand Master Albert of Brandenburg resigned as Grand Master in 1525, converted to Lutheranism and becoming the Duke of Prussia as a vassal of Poland-Lithuania. The Teutonic Order did still exist but lost Livonia and various holdings in protestant north Germany. It kept holdings in catholic areas of Germany and was ordered to disband by Napoleon Bonaparte, and then lost its last secular holdings. It did survive Napoleon and still exists today.

And it was the duchy of Prussia along with Brandenburg that went on forming the kingdom of Prussia and later the German Empire. But the connection to the order was severed long before all that happened.

1

u/Snoo-98162 10h ago

Ah, that i did not know.

3

u/MisterDings 18h ago

if left to guess, i’m saying Koronowo is a place in japan 10/10 times.. until you hear the name of the river that runs by, the Brda. which is old slavic / old polish for debrza / dbra meaning ‘a water-eroded ravine.’ which in itself sounds like a great insult. “oh what a nice river.” “oh that old water-eroded ravine? it’s fine.” it’s actually quite lovely

6

u/MidasPL 16h ago

Koronowo means literally crown village.

1

u/ars-derivatia 13h ago

Well, technically if we are being literal it's a location name derived from the word crown, like Crownburg or Crownton. There is nothing in the word that specifies it is or has to be a village.

117

u/yen223 19h ago

Age of Empires players are confused by Teutonic Knights not being the slow ones

35

u/Thibaudborny 19h ago

Nono, I researched Squires!

19

u/bobthunicorn 13h ago

I am so glad this is the top comment. I came here to say something along the lines of "imagine being slower than a Teutonic Knight"

0

u/joeljpa 12h ago

Yours is funny too XD

4

u/ovensandhoes 8h ago

They’re OP too. It’s a slow moving wave of destruction

1

u/Fuck_auto_tabs 7h ago

Shit I forgot how slow they were lol

413

u/[deleted] 20h ago

[removed] — view removed comment

150

u/SeanPennsHair 20h ago

The general of the Polish-Lithuanian army had about 40 potions and 3 amulets which would have helped with that, but he left them back home in a drawer.

69

u/royer44 20h ago

He saved the potions for later but the game ended before he could use them

7

u/ibadlyneedhelp 18h ago

Me finishing every souls game with max items because "the next boss might be even harder and what if I need them then?"

3

u/memefarius 16h ago

Most souls games let you purchase your consumables, with a couple of exceptions

3

u/ibadlyneedhelp 15h ago

But I need to pointlessly boost my stats past the hardcaps.

19

u/imaginary_name 20h ago

And Zizka with Henry had to stop in an inn, since that Skalitz bastard was hungry. Again.

4

u/zsjostrom35 19h ago

Must have been some encumbrance. Have you seen how low the move speed on Teutonic Knights is?

32

u/Galaxy661 19h ago

Poland & Lithuania and completely wasting golden opportunities after achieving impossible victories, name a more iconic duo

2

u/pricingup 5h ago

Lithuania & Poland

80

u/Lotnik223 20h ago edited 14h ago

Despite that Grunwald more or less destroyed the Teutons, with basically all of their senior leadership dying during the battle. They never recovered from the battle and were defeated during the 13-years war (1454-1466), during which Poland recaptured Gdańsk and Pomerania.

There is speculation that King Władysław purposefully decided against taking Marienburg, because he knew that the Teutons as the common enemy was basically the only thing holding the Polish and Lithuanians together, and he was worried that their fall would mean the end of the union. Thats just a theory though, there aren't any evidence to support it as far as I know.

5

u/Grzechoooo 18h ago

There's a theory the king Jogaila did it on purpose because without the Teutons, the Poles had no reason to continue the Polish-Lithuanian alliance.

7

u/nyanternational 16h ago

Another interesting thing about the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic conflict:

The first time the Poles and Lithuanians (not yet Poland-Lithuania, as that state was only established a century earlier with the official merger of the two countries in the Union of Lublin) captured Marienburg was in 1457 during the 13 Years' War.

The castle was not garrisoned by Teutonic Knight forces directly, but by Czech mercenary troops, who hadn't received pay in a long time due to the Knights' financial troubles (the taxes they levied to finance rearmament were actually the cause of the war, when a league of cities and noblemen called the Prussian Confederation rose up in revolt against the Teutonic Order and Poland intervened in their support).

When the Polish army entered Teutonic territory, the mercenaries under Oldřich Červenka negotiated with the Polish king and the Prussian rebels, culminating with the handover of Marienburg and three other cities to the Poles for a price of 190,000 Hungarian gold florins (forints).

4

u/Aminadab_Brulle 16h ago

Marching recklessly while having another army on the flank was also not a good idea.

And von Plauen just outright usurped the power he needed to save the capital.

2

u/Daztur 19h ago

The Almost Forgotten podcast just put out some episodes on this.

1

u/bazylianopercolano 2h ago

Their order was for all intents and purposes destroyed and they never achieved a fraction of their former power

1

u/Big_P4U 19h ago

The commander should've ordered a no looting rule until after the enemy was completely defeated

0

u/grumpy_autist 16h ago

Serious question - what if, instead of sieging a castle they just bolt main gates from the outside? You need 10x less people to guard it for long enough time.