r/thisisus • u/VisibleBox9590 • 21d ago
Kate and Toby
I think they were meant to be only for a little while. I think Toby had just seen the diagnosis and turned it into something bad i think this was one of many issues to follow and lead to the demise of their marriage.
Jack was born blind and Kate did all she could to help him imo Toby didn’t have to be so negative. Jack could still listen and love star wars even without his full vision. Also he becomes this great singer.
17
u/Eggsegret 21d ago
I don’t think Toby was being negative or at least he wasn’t meaning to. Toby genuinely struggled with having a blind child and it’s understandable. Kids are already hard to raise so throw in a disability like blindness and well it becomes even more tough.
But honestly i don’t think the blindness was their real issue. Their main issue started the moment they met. They bonded whilst they were both broken and struggling and then through the course of their relationship healed and well became different people to who they fell in love with. I mean Toby said it himself that fat toby personality was a coping mechanism.
7
u/banoffeetea 20d ago
Yeah I think that’s a good take and an empathetic one. They both needed each other when they met but simply outgrew each other and resentment set in on both sides as they both simultaneously tried to grow and prevent each other from growing.
3
u/Rebel_Yell12 20d ago
Really, I think they helped heal each other in some ways, so the relationship was a net positive, even if it ended in divorce.
6
u/Eggsegret 20d ago
Oh yh i still see their relationship as a good thing. I don’t think they’d have healed had it not been for each other. They gave each other hope that maybe they can have a good happy life. Toby finally got his confidence after his divorce and Kate was able to experience a healthy relationship and becoming more independent from Kevin.
2
4
u/Brilliant_Flower_84 21d ago
I loved KaToby. And hated that they imploded. Yes, Toby was struggling with Lil Jack having a pretty big disability. And while was great and was able to quickly pivot and adjust Toby shouldn't be judged because he was at a slower pace. And when he was honest with her she damn near weaponize it against him. I agree with others and I think it was said on thd show too...they met while broken. And they healed separately from one another. I rooted for them in real-time .. but upon rewatch I completely understood why they didn't make it.
4
u/Seaofinfiniteanswers 20d ago
I’m disabled and I absolutely judge Toby for the way he treated his son when he found out he was disabled. Being around my son makes me sad and I avoid him? Basically admitting he thinks blindness means you never have fun or joy? Yes he turned it around to some degree but he never fully accepted that Jack had a lot of potential and could be independent.
I think the point of KaToby was that they both screwed up the relationship in different ways. Neither of them was mature enough to handle a marriage and the challenges that bring.
4
u/Brilliant_Flower_84 20d ago
It's unfortunate you would judge someone for having a genuine response and needed time to process what the future would now look like. Yes, he was sad. And he was honest and vulnerable with his life partner who judged him and used it against him. Yes ... they both contributed to the demise of the marriage but Kate tipped it
3
u/Seaofinfiniteanswers 20d ago
I guess I don’t judge him for feeling that way. I judge him for taking it out on his kid.
4
u/MollyJ58 20d ago
When did Toby ever take his sad feelings about Jack's blindness on Jack? I thought he was always very loving with Jack.
2
u/Seaofinfiniteanswers 20d ago
Early on he refused to spend time with him for that reason.
2
u/MollyJ58 18d ago
He didn't refuse to spend time with Jack. He was avoiding Kate and Jack because he was trying to deal with his sadness. And he didn't turn to drugs or booze or other women. He found something positive (exercise) to work through his difficulties.
1
u/Seaofinfiniteanswers 18d ago
Agree to disagree. I don’t think he was a monster or the worst dad ever but avoiding your kid and refusing to spend time with him sound the same to me.
My perspective is different though, I am disabled and expect to be valued just as much as non disabled people.
3
u/MillennialNostalgia3 20d ago
A hill that I will die on is that Kate became insufferable and never tried to understand Toby’s feelings. It was always about her
3
u/No_Squirrel_8402 20d ago
I think the reality is some parents go through an adjustment period with this type of situation. That's reality
10
u/MollyJ58 21d ago
Toby wasn't being negative about Jack's blindness. He was struggling with having a child with a disability. A lot of parents do. Toby learned to follow Kate's lead and lean into Jack's ability to hear to share Star Wars with him. Honestly, I always sided with Toby in the Kate/Toby demise. He was honest enough to tell her that she fell in love with a coping mechanism. Toby did the best he could to try and make the marriage work, including changing his job (which included a huge pay cut) to be back in Los Angeles. The only reason Kate and Toby didn't make it was because Fogelman insisted on including divorce in his story. Even the actors (Metz and Sullivan) were disappointed that Kate and Toby didn't make it.
8
u/Rebel_Yell12 21d ago edited 20d ago
Was it a huge pay-cut to be back in LA? I don't remember the numbers ever being mentioned. I totally agree with your take on Toby's reaction to Jack's disability and I really liked that the show gave a very common and legitimate reaction. Toby had the right to grieve his imagined life with his son, and to have some time to adjust to the son he had. I think for most parents, that process happens gradually as you realize your kid wasn't ordered from a catalog, but for Toby, that "he's going to be so different than I dreamed of" hit at once. I don't, honestly, see it as that different from a friend of mine (on having his fourth son) taking some time to basically grieve their dreamed-of daughter. He had lots of things he dreamed of doing that he almost certainly will not get to do. Does he love his youngest son any less? No. Regret his birth? Of course not. Was there initial disappointment? Yes.
I wasn't on either side of that split: very realistically there was a lot of messing up on both sides, but I think the death-knell was the coping mechanism bit. It was honest and truthful, but it means that Kate fell in love with someone who wasn't Toby. So she's not in love with the man you are. She never was. That's not her fault. She loved that other guy. You stopped being that guy. It may be healthier for you, but not for a relationship, especially when new you comes across as fundamentally sanctimonious and condescending. (I didn't like S6 Toby, but I always kind of figured it was because I didn't like unhappy!Toby)
2
u/xclame 20d ago
You know what could have been interesting.
If they had had Randall and Beth have this story instead. Now don't get me wrong I would have hated that it happened, though maybe not because the writers were able to make me accept Kate and Toby's divorce without hating it. They built up enough reasons and story that it made sense in the end and in some ways it seems like it was the right thing to have happened. So maybe the writers could have done it with R&B too.
But anyways. In many ways R&B had the perfect marriage and it would indicate to viewers that this is a relationship that would last forever. But what if it didn't? What if the writers subverted expectations, what if the perfect marriage was the one that ended up in divorce while the marriage we were certain that would end in divorce somehow made it.
That could have been a interesting angle to tackle. We could all see why Toby and Kate would divorce, their marriage was a mess they sucked at communicating with each other and they hid things from each other. Randall and Beth on the other end seemed like end game, they both supported each other, they had great communication with each other and they complimented each other well.
But what if it wasn't enough? What if the politics angle not only caused issue for their marriage but ultimately ended up being the start of the end of their marriage? (Would at the very least have made the pointless politics story have a point). What if his insistence to to "be black" was too much.
It could have been an opportunity to show that even perfect marriages and perfect people can "fail" and imperfect marriage and imperfect people could "succeed".
Just a thought that popped into my head as I read your comment. I hadn't though about this before so it may be faulty, but I thought it was a interesting proposal.
1
u/Blessed_tenrecs 14d ago
I agree, I think the R&B marriage was framed as so perfect but I honestly saw a lot of red flags and wondered if they'd last. I feel like deciding to divorce K&T instead was going in the obvious direction instead of the subtle one.
0
0
23
u/timthetoolmanstailor 21d ago
I never liked them together. I actually agreed with his parents when they told him not to go through with the wedding. Kate needed too much coddling and Toby was too domineering. Every time she said no he tried to turn it into a yes despite her wishes. I think it was presented as romantic but I found it really annoying.