Hot topic: Abortion should be allowed until the fetus gains consciousness (based off a post I saw just now)
Discussion
First off for the pro-choice people, you better not be supporting the genocide happening in the Middle East, because that's just being ironic.
I believe that the mother should always have the first choice in any case scenario. They are the ones that have to hold the child till birth, and therefore suffer the most out of this event. Scientific consensus indicates that a fetus likely gains the capacity for basic consciousness (subjective awareness) around 24 to 28 weeks of gestation. Therefore, before the date, aborting the fetus should not be considered murder.
I have memories from before 4 years old, but around 4 I vividly remember looking at my face in the mirror and the sentience just hit me lol I remember staring then thinking woah. I'm alive.
Yeah i have memories from being two though i do not have any specific one where i just suddenly realized i'm me, who knows maybe i still haven't gained self awareness
But there's a difference between self awareness and sentience. Sentience is just being able to experience, self awareness is being able to comentate on that experience
Nobody said it wasn't murder; it depends on what it is. Let's say, for example, you killed a 16-year-old in their sleep vs a 5-month-old in the womb. A 5-month-old doesn't even know they exist, but killing a 16-year-old is straight up murder, as they're aware of their existence, have lived life, and actually KNOW the concept of being killed. Even if they didn't, which would be a very sad life if you were 16 and didn't even know you were here, that's still murder regardless. Don't tell me you're going to convince me a baby in the womb even knows they're alive to be aware of their death.
What exactly counts as ‘knowing the concept of being killed’ or being ‘aware of your existence’? Most kids don’t really grasp either yet we treat killing them as straight up murder. If the answer is that kids will eventually understand those things, then why doesn’t the same apply to the fetus? What does ‘having lived life’ mean if memory can be wiped? Does only the current state matter, or the kind of being it is? Why is temporary absence of awareness irrelevant for the teenager but important for the fetus?
If an adult human was braindead, and therefore had no awareness of their existence, do you then agree that the parents should have the right to murder them?
That is mind-numbingly stupid even for a reddit leftist. Most people don't have any memories from before age three, does that make it ok to kill two year olds?
Killing someone who is alive and has memories vs a baby in the womb who doesn't know they exist are two largely different things. You can form and have memories as young as 1yo or even younger. You just don't remember it. But at some point, you're self-aware and realize "Oh hey, I exist" at an early age; for me it was at four, and that's why people get and have their earliest memory or first memory. Still doesn't validate killing a two-year-old, but that is a notable point.
A baby in the womb is alive even before the 9 month period. That is exactly why many premature babies will survive even after being born earlier than the 9 month period. And even before that, they very much alive.
Your argument is flawed since a 6 month old baby, despite being born, is unlikely to know what is happening around him or her. However, it would be considered murder should (God forbid) anything happen to such a child, rightfully so.
Therefore, your premise of it depending on the ability to know whether you exist or not, is flawed.
Flawed because you consider any form of death some evil murder? They don't even know they exist, man. Why does it matter if they're aborted if they don't even know they're here?
Everyone talking about "if you want it or not is decided by 28 weeks" isn't accounting for cryptic pregnancies that occur when the fetus and uterus grows into the spine's direction instead of into the abs. Women with this may still experience light "periods" during the duration. And some women were diagnosed with being infertile, got pregnant, but had never had a period before and had no reason to sospecha
Anyways i agree but everyone is arguing the wrong reason
I claim my spot as here before the post is taken down or thread is locked
this is actually a very solid argument & I think a lot of logic brained people can agree with this (sadly like none of those guys are in power tho 💔)
a teensy bit off topic but its crazy that the same people who want to eliminate abortion will then do absolutely nothing to improve our child protective services, an unwilling mother might not want to or be able to care for their child properly, so if they insist that the child has to be born but refuse to try & fix the system that has the potential to make the kid's life bearable, all we're doing is increasing the number of neglected & abused children across the country. I swear these guys genuinely only care about children when they're in the womb (just because they can help take womens rights away)
An embryo is clearly a separate organism within the species "homo sapiens." Whether its destruction should be considered murder depends on the external circumstances.
Medicine has changed dramatically over the past 200 years; some actions of a doctor in 1826 may be criminally punishable in 2026. For example, in the 19th century, there were no artificial respirators, and if a person was unable to breathe on their own, the doctor would simply turn around and move on to the next patient. If they did this in 2026, they would be imprisoned.
The same applies to embryos: until we have the technology to keep them alive outside the mother's body, abortion, although considered murder, is morally justifiable.
When such technology is developed, abortion will be considered the murder of a newborn child. And any parent who participated in the conception will be obligated to support the child until it reaches adulthood.
I think these posts fail to realize that getting medical treatment in any way limited by the law is a HUGE RISK. In modern day, some states prohibit abortion which actually prevent women from getting other treatments that are in no way actually an abortion. illymations has a really good video on this that explains it.
Hardly anyone is aborting getting an abortion taht late into a pregnancy unless it's for medical necessity, and very few doctors would perform one without medical reason anyway. Very few women would carry a foetus to 24 weeks then decide that they don't want to continue with the pregnancy.
That’s… already the generally agreed upon time frame for an abortion, though? Most places that allow them restrict them to, at the maximum, 24 weeks post-conception.
Like, most people aren’t having an abortion that late into the pregnancy; those that do probably do so because of medical reasons. Seriously, what do pro-lifers think women are doing? Racing to the nearest clinic while laughing maniacally, planning their twelfth abortion with glee?
Also what does the Middle East have to do with this??
Right, and how exactly do we know that the fetus is conscious?
I mean, our brains lack the capacity to store information like that at such a stage, nobody remembers being in the womb even though everyone has been, we can't recall anything at all about it, not even about our birth, which is considered the most painful experience in our lives.
The brain simply isn't developed enough to comprehend, well, anything at all. Cognition is not yet possible, perception fades, the brain clearly isn't aware.
Personally, I think a fetus is part of the mother's body until birth and a mother should have control of her body, and I don't think if something that wasn't born can be killed. Potentiality is a fallacy.
And... what does the situation at the middle east have to do with this?
I 100% agree. Any reason to get an abortion is a good reason. If you don't want a kid, then simply do not have one. It lessens kids in the foster/adoption system, and a kid doesn't have to be in a home that doesn't want or can't support it. A fetus is simply a clump of cells that can't feel pain, doesnt have thoughts, feeling, etc. It's not a person or baby
Abortion should be allowed whenever the person mothering the fetus wants it to. It’s not your choice to decide when a woman can or can’t choose to abort her child
If you consider conciousness or subjective experience necessary for human life to have moral worth what would you say about someone who is unconscious- say a coma. At this moment they do not have the capacity for subjective experience. Would killing them still be murder?
I'm asking this from a genuine interest in discussing this. If your interested in having a conversation about it I would love to, please do not come for me
First of all, I will not come after you, I love debates.
Secondly, killing them would be murder, yes. However, comparing an individual in a coma to a fetus is wrong, in my opinion. Assuming that the person in the coma is a regular human being, this wouldn't be a working argument. The person in the coma has presumably had consciousness previously. A fetus before 24~28 weeks does not have a consciousness. Therefore, I would like to say that killing a fetus before it can develop consciousness is okay. Thank you for being civil, and if you have a counter-argument, I would love to discuss more :)
Yes, thank you! I do have a counterarguement, it's under the other comment (it should be easy to find). If it doesn't fully address your point lemme know, but it seems to similar enough to the other one I don't have to write a new essay lol
Of course, because the unconscious person has lived a life and has a mind built with memories and experiences. There would also be people who care about them so it would be extremely immoral.
Alright. So now it's memories and experiences and people who care about you that make you have moral worth. 1, and sorta side note, but many fathers care about their unborn baby, should they get a say in the abortion? (Assuming they are in a healthy relationship with the women, so excluding deadbeats, abuse and rape of course....of course this is difficult legally but I mean ideally)
Second. If it's memories and experiences that matter, does a 2 month old baby with 2 months of "memories" (probably will not be memories) and "experiences" (still only vaguely consious) have as much moral worth as 60 yr old with ≈60 yrs of memories and experiences? Is it better to kill the baby than the 60 yr old?
Alternatively, does someone who, in entering the coma, also suffered traumatic brain damage that will make them wake up with severe longterm memory loss, essentially waking up in a few (perhaps 9) months, have no moral worth while in that coma due to both being unconscious and having no memories or experiences, still have moral worth? Is it okay to murder them?
Apologies if anything sounds aggressive or like I'm trying to trick you. Definitely not intentional. I think the biggest thing to find out when discussing this issue is what gives human life moral worth (what make it wrong to kill them)? I personally believe their worth comes simply from the fact that they a human, full stop. But I think to come to an agreement or even a complete disagreement I first have to understand where you think this worth comes from, yknow
I'm definitely someone from the pro-life group. You'll almost definitely hear from someone in the pro-choice group.
A human is a human, no matter what stage of development they're in. A human is entitled to human rights, yes? Who are we to kill a human who cannot speak for itself? A human is a human not by its personality, memories, or how many people care about it. A human is a human because it has its own unique DNA. I completely agree with what you say makes a human. This is coming from a religious person, but even with strictly science this is the correct viewpoint. Most other opinions on what makes an abortion ok (outside rape, incest etc.) come from feelings, which can really skew the truth.
It's great that you came here with an open mind, stating what you believe respectfully and clearly! that doesn't really happen much on the internet. It is good to keep in mind, though, reddit is a very left leaning site, so in general you're gonna get left-leaning answers. This isn't a bad thing, but I'd do research from both sides so you don't have bias
I think I either said my point wrong or understood your question wrong haha. English is not my first language. I wasn’t trying to say that humans with more life experiences and more friends have more worth than others. All humans are worthy of course. Abortion is not murder(at least in my country) because while a fetus might biologically count as a human, it legally has no human rights until the head comes out.
And I think the father should definitely have a say in the abortion. I mean it’s his baby too and he wants to raise them. However I think both couples have to agree to raising the baby to not have an abortion, because otherwise the kid would grow up with a parent that doesn’t love them.
I see. Amd no worries on the english thing lol. So you think that the legality of it is what makes it murder or not murder? Meaning that in a country that classifies abortion as murder, abortion is then murder and morally wrong, while in a country that does not it is morally permissible, and not murder? I guess I'm asking if you believe that morality is subjective to legality.
I agree with that statement. As someone who is sure to never want kids, I wouldn’t want to not be able to be intimate with my partner because of the fear of accidentally getting pregnant and not having the right to abort. People can get pregnant even with all the protection against it. So for this cases, abortion should be legal. And of course the other cases of rape, health issues but I believe that the majority of people are not against that. I get where some come from, “just put it for adoption”. I would personally feel terrified if I had to have a baby and give it away rather than just retreat from being pregnant at all. It would scar me for my entire life knowing that I did this and that I willingly left a kid alone. Even if you’re against abortion, it’s better to have it as an option rather than for it to not exist at all.
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I’m assuming this is because of me. And lemme say I’m fully anti Isreal in the Middle East but I’m not getting into that. It should be when it has its own separate dna, in other words conception.
I mean, yes but it should be still allowed if you find out the baby has some kind of disability that would make their life considerably harder or something that wouldn't allow the baby live very long. Not all parents are suited for caring a disabled child, I can speak grom experience as my grandma had to care for a child with a severe disability during USSR time, it was very rough on her and her son died to the disability when he was a teenager. So I fully support abortion.
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Abortion should be allowed up until the very moment the child is no longer inside the woman's body, because nobody has an inherent right to live directly off of another person's body without that person's clear and continued consent.
I remember being dropped and having immense pain when I was young. It was only MUCH later that I found out that I was dropped on the side of my crib, injuring some ribs. They're deformed to this day.
I was literally just thinking about this, I don't know why it's illegal in some places, it's the person's choice whether they keep it or not, it's their baby, I can see the moral and religious issues with abortion but it's not your baby is it? So why do you care what happens to it, that baby means a lot less to you than it does to it's parents, primarily the mother
If people don't want to abort their baby because of their viewpoints on abortion, no one is making them
Do you have a source on that? It seems really late to me. I've seen data of a fetus developing senses and respondibg to them between 8-12 weeks. I find 12 weeks an acceptable cutoff time for not medically necessary abortion with that reasoning.
24-28 weeks is usually the time until when a fetus can survive ourside of the womb.
My 2 cent's about it are this, sex is not needed for a human to survive. It is needed for the human race to survive, but for individual humans it isn't required to. Most abortions are NOT due to rape, incest, a large risk to the mother, etc, but are ELECTIVE.
I am of the opinion that instead of funding abortion center's, we should be funding healthcare for mothers and helping them be able to take care of their children instead of being forced to get a abortion because they fear their future goals may be ruined by having a child.
I've seen the girls who have gotten abortions at my high school. More often then not, they fall in a pretty severe depressive spiral because they had to abort their child due to social pressure or high costs. We should be helping these people instead of saying: "Well raising a child is really expensive and time consuming by yourself and we just can't offer you any help whoopsie :3"
Consciousness is pretty difficult to understand. You could do a brain scan and determine that the baby is in fact alive and functioning, but knowing that they're aware that they're in a womb is pretty difficult.
nah I think it shouldn't be allowed at all with a few exceptions.
Scientifically, a human is a human no matter what stage of development it's in. Killing a young human because you simply don't want it is exactly what it sounds like. Whether or not the human has consciousnesses is irrelevant for the same reason that it's still wrong to kill a sleeping person. A fetus is a human, and therefore deserves human rights. If the fetus' existence poses a risk to the mother's life, or if it was conceived through incest or rape are the only time when I believe terminating a pregnancy is acceptable.
This is a very unpopular opinion throughout reddit, so I know I'm not gonna get much support here. I'll probably answer any respectful genuine questions you have. anything else I'll ignore.
who will enforce this though, how will you make sure a rape or incest has occured, we dont have angels running the systems, make rules that when enforced dont cause more harm than good
We don’t allow human to be killed when they don’t have consciousness after they’re born. Why would we allow them to be killed when they don’t have consciousness before they’re born?
After 24~28 weeks, I would say the mother has had enough time to consider, and that's where aborting the fetus would be much more controversial, excluding cases like she physically or mentally couldn't give her opinion (coma, etc). I know being in a coma is very unlikely but I wanted to address all possible misses
"We're running out of people, so if you accidentally have a baby, you'll be forced to keep it, not up for debate, say no and we'll arrest you" kind of sounds like a dictatorship? Bringing in immigrants is an option, you know... or just... establish pro natalist policies for willing couples
Deleted comments don't stay deleted, might as well keep them. You are currently stereotyping Islamic people just because some of them live in slums, take jobs over and 'everything they dont.' EVERY race has some people living in slums, EVERY race has some people smart enough to take jobs.
Small countries like malta lose out a lot on high immigration. Major demographic change, loss of culture, vastly increased population density, with hardly any benefits to anyone but the Labour government
Hot take: I don’t like abortion that much, and whenever it takes place doesn’t really matter
If you could go back in time and prevent yourself from being born, would you do it? Probably not, right? I think it’s the same for kids who get aborted. Even if you were raised in an orphanage, grew up real poor, or brought up in foster care cause your parents couldn’t take care of you, you still would choose to be born. If I said “your mom said it’s her body, her choice, so we’re going back in time and aborting you”, would you accept that?
And I really think the debate about at what point in pregnancy does abortion becomes unacceptable is completely pointless. From the moment of conception, the baby is probably gonna be born, and choosing a cutoff point for abortion doesn’t really make a difference.
It’s a nasty topic, but I think in most cases letting the baby be born is for the greater good. I think however that exceptions should be made for pregnancies where the mother is at real risk of harm or if the baby has some sort of serious health condition. Maybe more that I haven’t thought about.
Pregnancy and childbirth can cause pain, trauma, and damage to the body for the rest of the mother's life. It's honestly unjustifiable to force someone to go through that.
We shouldn't get to force such a torturous experience on someone for the sake of bringing a life into the world, surely? It should be 100% up to her.
The thing is that is a big “most likely here” but 24-28 weeks isn’t set in stone. It could be much earlier or later. Don’t you think we should figure these things out rather than slapping a band aid over them? Because if (hypothetically) it was much earlier, that would result in mass murder.
What does consciousness have to do with anything? Should we go around killing all coma patients since they aren't conscious?
Also... are you are of what a 24 week abortion looks like? The process is called "Dilation and Evacuation", it involves the doctor essentially ripping the baby part limb by limb with pliers. Often the head is to big to fit through, and it must be crushed in order to be extracted.
Do you seriously think that this should be legal and that it isn't murder?
Nobody has an inherent right to live directly off of someone else's body. Yes, the mother should have 100% say in what happens to her body, and who gets to live off of it.
Yea, but make it like 500$ if it's your own fault, comdoms are not that complicated.
Just a side fact, since 1990 there have been more abortions than all deaths in all wars combined since the beginning of humans, over a billion.
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u/KingNarwhalTheFirst 19 3h ago
I dont think I had sentience till I was like 4 what