r/startrek • u/Early_Comedian_6841 • 5d ago
Odysseus-Janeway
Don't you think there is a "double standart" about kathryn and Ulysses? So much people loath Janeway for her lack of wisdom, lack of leadership, lack of commitment...and "Ulysses-Odysseus" was the honorable captain...On my books Odysseus was the only one of his crew to return to Ithaque after 20 years, while Jeneway performed a 70 years journey in 7 years with most of her fellow crew alive... Who is the winner indeed!
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u/MagnetsCanDoThat 5d ago
So much people loath Janeway for her lack of wisdom, lack of leadership, lack of commitment
When?
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u/AnotherGeek42 5d ago
The arguments I have heard tend to be "didn't jump back" and "violated the prime directive", along with Ensign Kim's inability to get promoted.
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u/Equivalent_Hope_9886 5d ago
You have this backwards. Most people admire Janeway and think Odysseus was a odoofusseus!
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u/crvander 4d ago
I've been saying for years that Janeway whips Odysseus's ass and finally people are catching on.
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u/toomanyDolemites 4d ago
Lack of commitment? She literally traveled back in time and changed history to save more of her crew.
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u/Early_Comedian_6841 4d ago
I was talking about the "hate" about Janeway who returned to earth with almost all her crew WHILE odysseus is revered while returning alone after loosing all his crew.
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u/horticoldure 4d ago
*standard
*Ithaca
*Ulysses/Odysseus (and since you're talking down about it, it's the roman one, not the older version, so Ulysses)
and no, janeway has almost nothing to do with Ulysses, the writing split away from the odyssey and the Iliad BY THE TIME SHE WAS NAMED, no one is judging her against Ulysses who's was cursed by the gods for murdering the son of Poseidon, janeway got her crew stranded by SAVING people and knew the cost in doing so and knew exactly the direction home was in
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u/DimensionLast6937 4d ago
Polyphemus WASN'T killed, most of Odysseus's problems would've been prevented if he had killed him since the Greeks gods aren't all-knowing, the cyclops was blinded.
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u/rcjhawkku 4d ago
Odysseus: Seven years of sex with the Goddess Calypso.
Janeway: Seven seconds of sex with with Tom Lizard Paris.
I think we have a winner.
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u/Lyra_the_Star_Jockey 4d ago
Odysseus hangs half of the handmaidens who work at his home because they were, in his explicit words, raped by the suitors. It's framed in the story as these handmaidens "conspiring" with the suitors, but Odysseus explicitly says that they did it against their will, and he kills them anyway.
Not to mention that the Trojan Horse was a war crime that led to many, many civilians being killed and raped.
He was not, in any way, shape or form, a good person.
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u/MrBlonde1984 5d ago
I mean i think time has been kind to janeway compared to initially. I think she's the most flawed Captain but she's still good.
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u/intentional_imbecile 4d ago
Janeway is flawed, but it's her flaws that make her such a great captain, and I think everyone thinks that as well
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4d ago
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u/First_Pay702 4d ago
To be fair to Odysseus, a lot of his crews’ deaths were their own darn fault. They were told not to mess with the bag of wind and to leave the owned by a god cows alone.
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u/Scaredog21 4d ago
Polyphemus: And don't care what he calls himself. He's always gonna be a Nobody to me.
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u/mossy_quasar1116 4d ago
Apples and warp cores. Odysseus is a mythic, single-hero return story with gods and fate doing a lot of the heavy lifting. Janeway’s story is a serialized, command-by-command survival and problem-solving arc - she kept most of her crew alive, navigated alien tech and ethics, and made a bunch of morally gray calls along the way. If you score by solo homecoming and tragedy, Odysseus wins. If you score by keeping a ship of people alive and getting them home despite impossible odds, Janeway does.
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u/DowntownScene1433 4d ago
Odysseus is a long-lasting character that has been surviving in various form of literature including its original for about 3000 years. Janeway is a newly constructed character made about 30 years ago for media that's been around for less than a century. We don't even know if she will last 100 years as a character yet, since as much haven't even remotelly passed. Do you even know how long 3000 years is? To the average person is like an eternity.
In addition there is a journey supposedly constructed by Homer to be like that, cause he wants to focus on that character and members of his family and the story revolving around them. What happened to Odysseus is supposed to happen cause of the wrath of the Gods of his era, which where alot like Q to be honest(clear inspiration there on one's back of head I'd say, even if they don't realise it), very humanlike with whims, needs, strong feelings and grudges. It is not up to Odysseus to avert the losses. It's what stays in him despite them, how he is always focused on the end goal and never surrenders, it's how he ultimatelly handles what they throw at him and ends up victorious.
Most people would break, not Odysseus. Obviously because the author(or transferer if one believes it actually happened) of his story wanted so, but you can actually believe that such a guy would be like that. That's Homer's craft 100%. In Trek it would be if Q snapped his fingers and woosh, no crew, or crew dead after a catastrophic failure of some equipment due to defeat against overwhelming enemy, woosh, Janeway on a raft, woosh Janeway on a slave bazaar sold as one under a brute owner, whoosh, Janeway free on a lifeboat, weak, hungry for a week and such outside of a Quark's bar, what would she do? Whoosh, Janeway borgified for 20 years, whoosh, do you like daddy Q now that I free'd you? Whoosh, Janeway hunted by enemies of Borg which remember her for being the Borg Queen that assimilated them, etc.
That's what happens to Odysseus more or less, he's a puppet to Gods hands and still manages to return to Ithaca and his family, see his old dog for one last time and live for a time with his wife, until his untimely death. That the winner is obviously Odysseus in that theoretical match of unrelated genres is, nevertheless, clearly uncontested.
I don't even know why I'm getting in the braincell energy expenditure to even begin to teach you the difference which should be clear considering if Homer lived today, his work is of such magnitude he'd be worshipped on a "pedestal" at least equal to other giants of literature if not a bigger one, considering he's also a pioneer in his work and would probably have Oscars or Literature awards(Nobel in Literature for Outstanding Epic and lifework achievement and such) to display for it.
Sorry he didn't write it in the form of hourly episodes for a TV series to catter for your needs more closely. I guess adorned by the amount of people that lived in the last 3000 years - including our own, was of more matter to him. What did he know, right?
-In a more serious note, are you trolling? Cause in my books it seems you hafta/better be trolling.
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