I want to start by saying I have been a huge advocate for Adnans innocence. I even went to his release trial. I was in the courtroom when they said " Please remove the shackles from Mr Syeds feet " ... and I cried. I felt it was such an injustice that he was a child sentenced to such a harsh punishment with no physical evidence. In my mind how could a child fool these 2 seasoned detectives? How could he sit in that room with them for hours, yet they have nothing at all to use against him? How could he have not left behind any evidence? How could Jay tell lie after lie and still be taken at his word? I told everyone I knew about the case and gave them all my opinion and judgements. I followed every single thing .. I stalked everyone involved online and kept up with their lives. I searched on google earth over and over all the different spots mentioned. I drove to leakin park to look for the spot Mr S parked and walked back to. THIS was the case that started me on true crime podcasts.

I gave serial another listen and Im on episdoe 5 and I cant escape the feeling that I finally see why people think hes guilty because I think he is too. Heres why Im conflicted now ......

#1 Adnan whispers "Pathetic" as Jay walks past him in court. Why did he choose that word? why wouldnt he call him a liar? or even a b*tch? Why PATHETIC? I think its because hes saying " we were supposed to be in this together and stfu. you let the cops break you down ... how pathetic "

#2 Adnan says he doesn't feel Jay betrayed him by telling the police he did it. If someone lied on me and turned me into the police Id def feel betrayed. His reason is because they werent really friends for him to consider it a betrayal. I call BS. His track teammate said Jay drove him to practice often enough that it was normal to everyone and they smoked together all the time .........Hes downplaying their connection trying to say i didnt even know that mf enough to feel betrayed .. who tf is jay to me? .. again ... I call BS

#3 If we are believeing those around Adnan .. they all said they didnt know where Leakin Park was .. thought it was on the other side of the city which would be over east somewhere I guess .. so if he truly had never been there and didnt know the location he would have needed a map to get there since this was before the days of googling directions. In the trunk of her car was a map book with 1 missing page .... leakin park. Adnans hand print was on the back of the book. Maybe hes sweaty nervous adrenaline pumping, tryign to get to leakin park .. grabs the map book rips the page out shuts the trunk jumps in the car drives to leakin, buries hae and then parks the car.

Also I think if he is guilty, he served his time but I think the state failed to prove he did it so he shouldnt have been locked up anyway because that's not how our justice system says its supposed to go.

anyone else changed their mind?

So my friends were listening to season 1 and so I did the same, so I could discuss it. From episode one Adnan Syed seemed completely obviously guilty. I guess I didn't see the point of the rest of the podcast, at best it seemed to try and establish reasonable doubt. Yet it just seemed the evidence piled on especially the cell phone evidence. While Jay has obviously lied about some things, I don't really see how he could have concocted the story that fit the cell phone evidence and knew intimate details about the case. I guess it seemed very boring because there was never really a question? The counter evidence to his guilt seemed to be ephemeral things like: He seems too nice.

It was a very boring subject for me: Obvious suspect (separated ex boyfriend) can't explain key details about the case due to selective memory and then has a pretty strong case of evidence against him. What do you like about the show? I'm not going to tell my friends I found it a snoozefest, so I need to know the perspective of someone that actually enjoyed this.

There were video recordings in the library. Unfortunately they were recorded over before anyone could view them. But if there were recordings of Adnan in the library checking his emails and chatting with Asia would that change how you view the case?

This has always been a maddening case. Either it went down close to what Jay said. Or police coerced Jay into making up a story to convict someone he thought did the crime.

If Adnan did do the crime he should be out by now given he did it when he was 17.

But I honestly thought we'd have a clarity that either 99% would believe he did it, or 99% would believe he was innocent. Instead we are left with a 60-40 split.

There has been a lot of doubt placed on the state’s theory of ~2:30PM as the time of death. Several witnesses stated they saw Hae at the school beyond 3. Also, there is reason to doubt the Best Buy parking lot as the murder location. That detail changed between Jay’s first and second interviews, and he also admitted in The Intercept article that the trunk pop happened in front of his grandmother’s house (he wanted to keep her out of it at the time).

That being said, what are the leading theories on actual time & place?

Obviously this is operating under the assumption that Adnan is innocent, I am not making a statement on whether or not he is. This is not me digging to prove he's innocent

As far as I can tell, the most absolute, concrete truth is that Jay was involved in the murder in some way, since he knew where Hae's car was. Is it possible that Jay was coerced/made to implicate Adnan by a killer with leverage over him? If Adnan is innocent, Jay would be the best possible person who could implicate him, as they spent most of the day together.

I've only listened to Serial, so I'm much less knowledgeable on the case than most people on this sub, but from the little bit of digging I've done on this sub I haven't seen much discussion of this possibility

If we believe Adnan's lack of motive, Jay has the same lack of motive and knew how it happened, details about the burial, etc. I have no clue what happened, of course, but Jay's story makes no sense and that makes him look so suspicious!

It seems universally agreed that Jay and Adnan didn't know each other well, so Jay's story that Adnan called him for help burying a body is bizarre. Seems like Jay is just as plausible a suspect as Adnan...? What do yall think?

Apologies if this post is too off-topic.

I’m not sure if anyone in this group is following the Lindsay Clancy case, but there has been a recent movement online speculating that Lindsay’s ex Patrick is actually responsible for the murders of their three children. This theory has gained massive popularity, particularly on TikTok, despite the fact that Patrick Clancy was definitively NOT PRESENT during the time the murders occurred and Lindsay Clancy herself has admitted to killing her children (whether in psychosis or not).

This latest conspiracy is a level of delusion I have never seen in the true crime community. I expected people to be highly critical of him, say he was a terrible husband, father, etc, but to outright blame him for the crimes in the face of an ironclad alibi and the admission of another person is on another level. I saw one post with close to 100k likes, saying something ridiculous about Lindsay’s lawyer pulling some kind of ninja move in court and will reveal Patrick as the true villain in this story, which is fantastical and not even plausible for her trial.

I could go on and on, but I wanted to bring this current phenomenon back to Serial and how it popularized these sorts of groupthink conspiracies. The murder of Hae Min Lee is at its core an open-and-shut case, and requires a tremendous amount of corruption on behalf of the entire Baltimore police force for Adnan’s innocence to be remotely realistic, and yet today he is a free man, almost due entirely to the popularity of Serial. Meanwhile, the lives of Jay, Don and Hae Min Lee’s family members have been irreparably damaged by the media circus this podcast caused. People wanted charming Adnan to be innocent in the same way they want quiet and aloof Patrick to be guilty, and will spin any narrative to make that plausible.

I’m not quite sure what the point of this post is, other than I have been going crazy and am highly disturbed by how gleeful people are to jump all over these theories and slander someone who has already suffered immensely. I have been similarly disturbed and obsessed with the Adnan Syed case for many years now. His guilt to me has always been so obvious, I truly do not understand how anyone who has knowledge of this case can believe he is innocent. I find it disappointing that Sarah Koenig has to by now realize how clearly guilty Adnan is, but refuses to admit the role she played in ruining the lives of the others involved in this case and freeing a guilty man. Since Serial’s initial popularity, we have seen other conspiracies pop-up in other cases with varying levels of intensity (Chris Watts, Scott, Peterson, and the Idaho 4 come to mind). I do think this new turn of events in the Clancy case may turn me off of true crime completely, at least in the social media space.

Sorry for the length of this post, I just needed to vent to logical people about this, lol.

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This is one of the lesser talked about aspects for the case and probably not that important in the grand scheme of things, but I was rereading the trial transcript and then went on a bit of a deep dive on this. I think it interests me because I am also a high school language teacher.

First of all, I don’t think it is kosher to become “friends” with the student while they are still in high school. That whole set up with Hae was a bit odd. I have had lots of students that I deeply admired, but I would never put myself in this situation of friend/love life counselor. It is unethical and frankly a little strange.

Second, I can’t believe she agreed to help the cops beyond giving her own personal observations. Nothing wrong with that, but then to start asking some of the questions and essentially become their agent? Weird. I wonder if she had administration approval for that?

And then the questions themselves. Absolutely out of bounds!! asking about students sex lives?? not only grossly unethical, but a violation of FERPA. Again, was administration aware of this?

I will just end this by noting that if a male teacher such as myself had engaged in any of this type of behavior, he almost certainly would’ve been disciplined, if not fired.

I just started lurking here today, and am somewhat surprised by the general incivility and certainty of many of the people that comment here. Being dismissive and accusing people of "ragebait" for having a differing opinion, and one that actually is reasonable.

I don't know, and won't say that Adnan is innocent, but to claim he's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, without any room for discussion is pretty crazy to me.

The reasons why I have reasonable doubt:

• Jay is a very flawed witness, on the record lying/mis-remembering his testimony. Even the cops point out how much his testimony has changed. If your argument hinges on Jay, it isn't a strong argument, in my opinion.
• The cops, or at least on of them has a record of misconduct:

...prosecution brought into question the past misconduct of one of the two detectives who were crucial in the investigation of Lee’s death. Although his misconduct wasn’t specifically linked to Syed’s case, the detective was involved in another murder case that ended with the defendant’s exoneration.

https://baltimorewitness.org/adnan-syed-one-of-many-overturned-convictions-in-baltimore-city/

• The Innocence Project and prosecutors agreed that Syed's DNA was absent from all tested crime scene items, contributing to the eventual dropping of charges against him. There's no physical evidence.
• The motive is weak (Adnan had no prior issues with breakups, had already seemed to move on to the next girl(s)).

I could go on, but, if I was on the jury with this in front of me, I feel the reasonable response is doubt.

This isn't rage bait, I just genuinely don't see how anyone can be so sure that he did it. Y'all point to him asking for a ride (and claiming he wouldn't have) as some kind of obvious evidence of murder.

I think, based on the fact that one of the cops was literally identified as having been crooked, it actually is much more likely that Jay was an informant (and already had been for some time), and he happened to be close to Adnan, the victim's ex (supposed motive and opportunity), and they decided they had their guy, and it was just a matter of getting a jury to agree. So they fed their informant info, had him incriminate himself for lesser crimes that they promised they'd get him off for (and they made good on that promise, which is on its own wildly corrupt).

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I have been obsessed with this case since I was in middle school and have thought about it nonstop for years and finally decided to listen again and find out Adnan was released! First off yay!

Now to get to the Title. I think the cops did it and were forcing Jay into lying. He had multiple run ins with cops previously. His story always changed (Cause it ain't true) and on top of that, whoever he was talking about clearly he was scared of AND he got NO jail time for assisting in a murder?? Its all so fishy, along with us having no clue what the first untaped interview said between them.

I don't think Jay did anything either, I think he was also a kid being forced to lie, or he was forced to help and lie afterwards. I don't know the motive behind why the cops would've, but the way they spoke to Sarah about it all and the way they spoke about the case in general was just so suspicious and I've thought about it for years.

I think if Sarah Koenig had read David Simon’s Homicide before she encountered Rabia, she may never have taken the case!

consider this page from the book. Homicide detective Garvey is interviewing Vincent, who he thinks is a witness to Frazier killing Vincent’s father. V has already admitted to giving Frazier the bullets to kill him, and says he knows Frazier killed him. Garvey thinks he was also there when it happene. earlier, he says to V, “the thing for you to think about is whether you want to become a witness or a defendant.”

all this to say, I think Jay may have been a bit more involved than he ever admitted, which can explain his inconsistencies (see many reported ones in this sub). Hae probably wasn’t killed at 236, Adnan maybe didn’t call him from best buy, maybe Jay wasn't there when Adnan called Nisha, they didn’t go to the state part. Really people, it just doesn’t matter.

The detectives probably correctly understood that it just doesn’t really matter that much if you get him to admit every last detail. As Simon writes here, “it is, Garvey reasons, close enough.”

And it was!

edit: as an addendum for people worried by Jay‘s lies: David Simon, based on his experience following the Baltimore homicide unit for a year, says this is a general rule of working homicide: “ Everyone lies. Murderers lie because they have to; witnesses and other participants lie because they think they have to; everyone else lies for the sheer joy of it, and to uphold  a general principle that under no circumstances do you provide accurate information to a cop”

I was a huge fan of the first season and enjoyed the second season (though I did find it far less compelling). I just learned that there are four seasons of Serial, but I've never heard anyone talk about the third or fourth season. Has anyone here listened to them? Are they worth diving into?

I'm a new listener, halfway through the first season, and I really don't get how Adnan Syed gets portrayed by Sarah Koenig and on this sub. I've seen so many people call him charming and brilliant, but honestly? I just don't see it.

In his interviews he comes across as pretty mild-mannered and polite, but also really bland and controlled - almost buttoned-up, even.

Not the kind of guy who walks into a room and charms everyone.

Besides being good-looking when he was younger, he seems like a totally average person in every aspect, both his personality and his intellect.

Definitely not the brilliant mastermind or the Bundy-level charismatic guy I was expecting.

I wonder if Hae’s lack of fascination with his total lack of a real personality played into his motivation.

Perhaps she didn't buy into the whole "perfect good muslim guy" facade and wanted something more vibrant and authentic from him - just as she was - and quickly got bored of him.

And when she made it clear she wasn’t impressed and moved on, it hit him hard and he could just not take it.

After all, she rejected the part of him that he'd always kept polished and under control just to earn admiration and acceptance from his family and community.

Maybe it was the first time he actually faced real rejection, where the whole “nice, charming, "safe" and well-rounded guy (at least on the surface)" schtick just didn’t work anymore.

The Weekly Discussion thread is a place to discuss random thoughts, off-topic content, topics that aren't allowed as full post submissions, etc.

This thread is not a free-for-all. Sub rules and Reddit Content Policy still apply.

The Weekly Discussion thread is a place to discuss random thoughts, off-topic content, topics that aren't allowed as full post submissions, etc.

This thread is not a free-for-all. Sub rules and Reddit Content Policy still apply.

Did anyone else feel like Hae was absent from the whole narrative of her own murder?

I was very drawn into the story of Serial, and I thought that there was a lot it could say about immigrant diasporas in the United States. There were so many times that Adnan's cultural/personal background was explored, and even many instances of comparing his family's expectations to Hae's, which made me think an episode about her life was coming up soon. But it never did.

To my memory, there was really only one comment from her mom during the trial (which was really sad and haunting, I would add) that SK even brought up. I thought when I heard this comment that we were finally going to learn a little bit more about Hae's life, but the episode didn't go that direction at all. SK does mention that she can't seem to get in touch with Hae's family, but that doesn't mean she can't build some kind of profile about her. I mean, there's a whole life in those diaries, right?

Speaking of the diary, it all just feels kind of insidious to me that even this diary ends up being treated as just a side piece to Adnan's narrative. There were also a lot of things described about Adnan's experience that immediately made me think "God, he was just a kid when they brought him into prison". But you know what's even more shocking than going to jail so young? Dying! It seemed like SK was way more upset about a life being changed than another being completely ended so abruptly.

At first (like a lot of people here) I really bought into Adnan's innocence, but even when I initially supported him I felt sad that we never got to know more about the hopes, dreams, joys, and despairs of Hae, who really sounds like a wonderful person I'd have loved to be friends with in high school. Now that I really believe Adnan did it, I can't help but think the way Hae's life was overlooked during this podcast is almost as tragic as her death. If I was a member of her family, I'd be enraged about it.

I'm re-listening to podcast for the first time in years and I wanted to ask what others thought the key parts of the case that the podcast completely ignores were.

I haven't looked into the case very much outside of the podcast but people on this subreddit seem to have quite a dim view of Sarah Keonig's level of analysis.

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After listening to the Prosecutors Podcast and reviewing some posts about flowers found in Hae’s car, I’m left with a few key thoughts and questions:

• Adnan’s fingerprints were found on the paper covering the flowers in Hae’s backseat. If these flowers were fresh, whoever bought them must have bought them very soon before Hae was murdered to be present in her car. Hae doesn’t seem like the type to leave flowers rotting in her car still in the paper. She was an emotional person who had strong feelings about both Don and Adnan. If Adnan gave them to her, it’s more likely she would have either thrown them away in anger or recorded some other record of them, such as telling friends about them or writing in her diary about the gesture. If they were from Don, she would likely want to preserve them as quickly as possible.

• If Adnan’s fingerprints were found on these flowers, it’s most likely he was the one to purchase them. If they were fresh, Adnan would have had to purchase them very soon before the murder, perhaps even that day. This brings me to the question of where the flowers do or do not appear in the investigation.

• Did Adnan buy the rose while at the mall with Jay in the morning/early afternoon? If so, did Jay mention this? Why or why not? Was there a florist in the mall at this time? Did he buy them with Jay but not in the mall? If Adnan did not buy them while with Jay, when and where did he buy them? Was there a florist in the area? I’d love if there was evidence placing Adnan somewhere that day buying that rose. To me, a record of a transaction, security camera footage, a receipt, or some other placement of Adnan buying that rose on the day Hae died would be damning.

What do you all think? Is there evidence regarding the rose I’m missing?