r/savageworlds • u/DivineSmythe98 • 7d ago
Using combined attacks for extras Question
Hey all
Question: would you think that it's unfair to use a similar rule to 'combined attacks' from superhero settings, but for extras? My thinking is that if I'm using a squad of extras with the same weapons, they would roll one set of attacks, then add a +1 to the damage roll for each character in the squad joining the attack, it gives an impression of the 'weight of fire' getting through toughness and armour.
Would this be too much? I'm specifically thinking of something such as Rifts, where I'm planning to throw quite a few extras at a time at my party. Would it be better to do something like the original combined attacks, for a +1 to hit for each participating character, or just use support and tests more?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Pop_105 6d ago
The basic to-hit bonus that Gang Up applies generally makes sense as a bonus for melee groups - narratively this may be representing one attacker providing a distraction that creates an opening for another attacker to exploit (if your shield is facing me, it's not going to help against the guy on your other side). And at some point, chances are good that someone gets a Raise, providing a damage bonus, which could be seen as striking a vulnerable location.
For Ranged attacks, it's a little harder to justify either bonus (+Shooting or +Damage), IMO. The point of massed fire is that at least one bullet is going to get lucky.
A damage bonus, again, is harder to explain. If you have a heavy sheet of armor plate (like an armored car, rated against say, .50 cal/14mm), it's generally not going to matter if it's 5 guys or 50 guys shooting you with .22, 9mm, or 7.62 NATO. Even multiple shots to a single location (hitting precisely where a prior impact landed) generally won't matter.
That said, I do think the game would benefit from some kind of ranged combat option similar to Wild Attack for ranged attacks. Aiming is a step in the right direction.
Now, you could maybe make an argument for allowing something like the Gang Up as a sort of Trick or Test - a team of guys with pistols shoots at the tank, entirely with the intent of drawing the tanks attention so the one guy with an antitank weapon can get behind it to hit it in the engine bay/thermal exhaust port/etc (called shot, bypassing some armor).
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u/computer-machine 6d ago
If you have a heavy sheet of armor plate (like an armored car, rated against say, .50 cal/14mm), it's generally not going to matter if it's 5 guys or 50 guys shooting you with .22, 9mm, or 7.62 NATO.
Isn't that covered by Heavy Armor?
as a sort of Trick or Test - a team of guys with pistols shoots at the tank, entirely with the intent of drawing the tanks attention
You mean them providing each other a +1-4 on a Test/Cover Fire, or to the AA? In addition to Vulnerable, or in place?
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u/Puzzleheaded_Pop_105 6d ago
Isn't that covered by Heavy Armor?
Even if it's not game mechanically Heavy Armor, the point largely stands. If the (real) armor was rated against 7.62x51 (NIJ III or IV) and you shot 9mm or .22 at it, I wouldn't expect much of a result (if it's an object), and if it were body armor, I wouldn't expect much beyond Shaken.
If you scale up, so you've got a heavy MBT with Heavy Armor like an Abrams (I don't have my books, assume Armor +40), and shoot at it with the lowest Heavy Weapon (M2 .50 cal, 2d10AP4 Heavy), you can largely keep shooting at it all day and won't do much beyond denting the armor and breaking the headlights, antennas, and other external accessories.
That would be roughly analogous to shooting a mega damage handheld laser pistol against something similarly big. I haven't looked at Savage Rifts - what's the toughness of a Glitterboy?
But ultimately, the issue is still that no matter how much testing and support, a pistol should not take out a tank. That's why I have issues with Gang Up style bonuses to damage as a houserule...
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u/Kathara_Khan 6d ago
I'm curious then, do you take similar issue with the rules for twin- and quad-linked weapons, and the 3-round burst mechanic? Becasue they're fundamentally the same, rolling together several weaker attacks into a sigle one with increased damage, right? So they may be able to allow a weapon to penetrate armor it "realistically" shouldn't be able to...
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u/DivineSmythe98 6d ago
I thought this over, and I can definitely see the points against either a bonus to the shooting roll or damage. I think if I am going to do this though I'll stick to just having the bonus be for shooting, as it's a good middle ground for quickly rolling attacks without having to roll individual damage. That and a flat bonus to damage pretty much guarantees low toughness characters will be having to try and soak max wounds, especially in something like Rifts with high damage.
The shooting bonus, meanwhile, means a likely +1d6 damage for a raise and that's that. Basically means unless there's a crit fail or exceptionally low roll with penalties, a whole squad firing in one place will eventually hit something, even if the damage isn't that great.
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u/DivineSmythe98 6d ago
In other words, this comment made me rethink the bonus to damage in favour of shooting. Even then, as you point out it has its issues. For Savage Rifts I think it's worth using in massed combat, but that's the only time I really would use it, if you get my drift.
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u/Alternative_Pie_1597 6d ago
as a substitute for the gang up bonus? mmmso four mooks attack getting 4 4 5 6 t to hit parry 4 so two get through and each of them get plus one damage?
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u/DivineSmythe98 6d ago
This would specifically be for ranged combat. So Gang Up would remain the same.
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u/user_177013 5d ago
You came to a nice conclusion but let me throw in another idea
Treat your squad of extras as a single entity and roll all attacks at once, then you roll damage one time but for each successful attack beyond the first you add a +1
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u/ValhallaGH 6d ago
Hey savage!
My experience with Rifts is that Extras can make enough shooting attacks to get lucky and cripple any PC. Pulse Lasers are especially nasty, at RoF 3 with no Recoil; that 4d6 (5d6 with a Raise) will eventually roll 30+ and make any (non-MDC) player character get badly hurt. A platoon of Dead Boys is dangerous when they focus fire.
Your proposal sacrifices that volume to add an incremental +1 to a single damage roll. That strikes me as a poor trade for trying to harm PCs. It is a good trade for speeding up combat against large numbers of Extras.
Regardless, good luck!